Look at your average MotoGP bike and you’ll see lots of titanium and carbon fiber pieces, same goes for high end bikes like the Ducati Desmosedici or any motorcycle needing the strongest and lightest materials. Unfortunately, all of those exotic bits mean high prices, but, we could see more of those materials used in the not too distant future due to advances being made which will increase availability and bring prices down.
A new non-melt consolidation process for producing titanium parts, being developed by the Oak Ridge National Laboratory could reduce the energy required and the cost of production by 50 percent. Titanium has a huge number of applications but costs can be prohibitive. Efforts to increase the efficiency of all of our vehicles creates a need for materials with high strength and light weight. What better time to lower the cost of titanium?
Carbon fiber is the other prime choice for strength with light weight and a group of Japanese companies are working to develop a new mass production process for the material with the goal of mass market carbon fiber cars.
A few custom builders have used carbon fiber and one company is building carbon fiber frames but you don’t see it too often.
Think of what happens if you can use carbon fiber and titanium for frames, suspension, bodywork, wheels, and all of the various bits and pieces in the average motorcycle. You don’t see it now because costs are off the chart but maybe not for long.
Links: Green Car Congress and Physorg.com via Next Big Future
hoyt says
This is great news and will be interesting to watch the process improvements as well as their end results.
I would hope the process to mass produce cf parts is not only more efficient in terms of time & cost, but also more of a eco-friendly process.
How recycle-able is carbon fiber once the intended use has been consumed? Metal frames are good scrap metal that can be used again. Can the cf material be used again for whatever, or will it fill up landfills?
kneeslider says
hoyt,
You raise an interesting question but I’d like to take it one step further. I have no idea how recyclable carbon fiber is but suppose it’s not. If using it dramatically improves efficiency and increases gas mileage and decreases our use of oil, isn’t that an acceptable tradeoff?
hoyt says
No.
hoyt says
Suppose the cost is low enough to mass produce cf frames for autos and bikes in the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands….plus, factor in the other products made with the lower cost cf material
If this material cannot be used for anything else, we may be taking a step forward and a step back. Hasn’t there been great improvements made with the amount of material actually salvaged and put back to use?
I’m not against these improvements in cf. Real improvements would be seen when manufacturers and material science look at the intended use and its residual expectancy.
hoyt says
I’d like to clarify the comment, “Hasn’t there been great improvements made with the amount of material actually salvaged and put back to use?”……
with existing metals, plastics, etc.
Steve says
Hoyt and Paul,
You raise an interesting question about recycling, so I just did a quick google search and found the following link:
http://www.green-energy-news.com/arch/nrgs2006/20060066.html.
Apparently, others are working on it already.
As for Titanium, I always remember the SR-71 Blackbird recon airplane. It was built largely of Ti. The Air Force and Lockheed were surprised to learn that the airframe did not fatigue as fast as expected. In fact, it got stronger over time due the annealing effect of flying at Mach 3 and re-entering the lower atmosphere. The limiting factor for speed was not the engine power, but the temp of the leading edge of the wing. However, that heating and cooling made it stronger. A truly amazing aircraft.
Motorcycles, of course, don’t get to go that fast and get that hot, at least mine doesn’t.
Steve
kneeslider says
You can recycle cf, so there you go. Thanks, Steve.
lostinoz says
http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/carbon-fiber-life-beyond-the-landfill.aspx
Sorry about the link, but there IS carbon fiber reclamation, its a new territory, however there ARE people (boeing and airbus) working on it.
The biggest use of chopped CF is in plastics, electronics mainly, that dont NEED the strength of long strand CF, however that brings about a new recycling issue there. There are other processes besides chopping, such as depolymerization, to get long strand CF back. However I have to wonder what toxins could be released with this process into the atmosphere, and more importantly, whats the waste (including toxins) to reclaim ratio?
While it would be nice to see a complete CF frame and fairings on a bike cheap enough for the common man to afford. If the costs and ability to recycle is too high, perhaps its better if the “common man” doesnt get their hands on this technology. I dont want to be buried up to my armpits in wrecked out CF. Granted sunlight degrades unprotected CF like any other polymer, but how long would it take? 1 year? 400 years? 1000 years? how long is too long?
Azzy says
One of the other roadblocks for titanium production is the cost of tooling to work with it and various alloys. It just takes time to really cut the stuff with precision, not to mention polishing and finish.
hoyt says
good links. Thanks All.
If the process to reclaim the cf retains its tensile strength, like the first link above states, then this would be huge.
I am all for improvements to material science, but it is equally important to consider the reclaim effort and reclaim quotient.
As always, Paul, the ‘Slider proves to be a place for good exchange of information.
Hugo says
CF is so “oldfashioned” 😉 just kidding but the next “big” thing will probably be carbon nanotubes: http://www.sae.org/mags/SAETECH/MATER/3698
B. Case says
Now if we can just convince America that “light weight” vehicles, no matter what the propulsion, are the answer to all our problems…
volume will drive material cost down…
CF is absolutely recyclable…
something as simple as lightening your wheels (www.blackstonetek.com) can dramatically improve MPG…expect to see more cars and 18-wheelers with CF wheels soon…
the information age has lead us to the sustainability age…
FREEMAN says
Sunlight dramatically degrades CFRP. Unprotected carbon fiber can be rendered structurally unsound in as little as ten hours in the sun. Also, carbon fiber will rot aluminum in as little as a month if you bolt them together without a protective barrier between them, which includes a barrier around the bolt(s) holding them together. An important consideration to keep in mind if you use them together.
FREEMAN says
Let me clarify my original statement: by sunlight I mean UV light. So even UV emitting light bulbs can damage unprotected CFRP.
B*A*M*F says
I had never heard of CF depolymerization. My gut reaction based on having seen CF parts made (with epoxy resin) is that they wouldn’t be recyclable. Pretty awesome stuff.
I’m excited about the titanium thing too. One of my professors designed fencing foils that were metal matrix composites. These foils were carbon fiber with titanium instead of resin.
Wave says
I realise that as motorcyclists you are probably all fairly fuel efficient, but the way towards lighter and more economical cars doesn’t need to be paved with carbon fiber. I drive a VW beetle which is made entirely of sheet steel and it weighs less than two-thirds as much as a modern car, and half of an American pick-up! Better economy is easily gained through smaller, simpler cars without power-adjustable heated gadgets all over them. I bet there are at least a million pick-ups in the US which could be replaced with hatchbacks because they never carry a load in the tray!
pghcyclist says
Yeah i second that “AZZY” I thought that the major cost associated with CF and Ti where tooling and man hours.
Freeman. I know i always bring up bicycles on this board (sorry) but we have figured out how to solve the carbon aluminum problem years ago, and relatively cheaply too.
Hugo Check out Easton they are using carbon nanotubes as a resin filler pretty cool stuff.
As far a the resin breaking down um yeah i own cf frames that are 7 years old and just fine. Also um how about sailboats. Those guys know more about resins than anyone. And they deal with harsher conditions than we could ever imagine.
I think the major problems with such exotic material are not the products them self its the users. The torque setting on ti and carbon structural parts are more than most noobs want to deal with. Also the constant inspection can be a bit much for a casual rider.
C.P.T.L. says
I am not an expert on CF. But I have been reading on the subject recently with a mind to applying it to a certain motorcycle design.
It is is recyclable, but how it is done or whether all CF products are, I don’t know.
When it come to the effect of UV on CF, it is a matter of resin; some are ruined very quickly by UV. Better quality resins are less affected. Are there some not affected at all? I don’t know yet, though I have read of ‘aircraft grade’ resins. Aircraft live in the nastiest UV environment there is, so, are they painted? unaffected? At very least there is a way to conquer UV concerns.
Rotting aluminum is a shocking thing I never encountered in a lot of reading. I find it hard to understand. Isn’t CF and resin neutral? What could cause such a thing? Why weren’t there warnings all up and down any of the websites I read at?
Maybe it will come up during further reading; the mating of metal parts and CF is the next part of the subject I mean to study, but have been having a difficult time finding info. Any suggestions?
FREEMAN says
CPTL: The aircraft industry fights the UV deterioration by coating the outer surfaces of the CFRP with paint. The aluminum rot, when coupled with CFRP, is induced from galvanic action between the two materials, mainly from the path of the bolts if the two have a barrier inbetween. CFRP is better paired up with corrosion resistant steel or titanium.
Clive Makinson-Sanders says
I built a 4 seater, single engine, split wing personal jet aircraft almost entirely out of carbon fiber. We used machined aircraft grade aluminum supports bolted directly to the CF in several places around the interior of the airplane. Engine mounts, tail wing mounts, interior frame, avionics frame.. ive never heard of corrosion being a problem.
http://www.eclipseconceptjet.com/
And yes, there are a ton of different resins, some of them do break down in UV, others turn yellow, others are virtually unaffected.
kneeslider says
Does anyone ever notice the level of knowledge and expertise floating around out there among the readers of this site? Simply amazing.
B. Case says
“Rot” is a strong term, and “one month” is just ridiculous. Current methods have all but eliminated any corrosion between CF and aluminum. You could also say raw mild steel will rust immediately if left unprotected, but everybody knows that.
Also, there are many resin additives to resist UV degradation.
ROHORN says
Don’t expect any significant change in motorcycle performance by replicating existing component designs in cf/ti. Nobody would claim a cf/ti Curtis Jenny would be a high performance airplane. With the insanely bad aero drag figures of even “high performance” motorcycles in mind, don’t expect even a 5% decrease in fuel consumption just from changes in weight. Drag matters a whole lot more much past running speed.
It has always been my observation and opinion that exotic materials are the only way to improve bad designs.
For corrosion issues between metals and composites in aviation, check out ol’ Burt Rutan’s somewhat recent action regarding Long-EZ wings.
Yes, there seems to be a lot of FUD regarding CF/metal joint corrosion, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue.
If we see a change in cf/ti content, it will be mostly for marketing reasons.
Clive Makinson-Sanders says
Well one of the really cool things about CF a least, is that just about anyone can do it in their garage without much special equipment besides a 35psi vaccuum, an oven, high temp bags and vaccuum hoses, and the carbon fiber. Tooling can be done on medium density foam or clay and the shaping possiblities are effectively limitless.
Clive Makinson-Sanders says
Sorry, the vac might have to be stronger, around 70 is probably the most you would need.
hoyt says
ROHORN, “Don’t expect any significant change in motorcycle performance by replicating existing component designs in cf/ti.”
You mean mpg performance, correct? A dramatically lightened frame and wheels through the use of cf would improve handling performance. Or would it to the extent of justifying the cost…..
This could open up another very interesting topic that Moto Czysz is pursuing…..stiff frames with desired flex in the fork as opposed to desired flex in the frame with no flex in the fork (when examining motorcycles leaned over in a corner)
For street riding, have cf wheels shown enough longevity to warrant the cost? Forged magnesium or aluminum seem to provide more reassurance when considering pot hole abuse and general street conditions. $2000 per wheel is steep.
lostinoz says
Kneeslider,
Does it HONESTLY amaze you? You write in here about motorcycles, most people that respond during the day are professional or scientific in nature that are looking up the newest and latest tech for a hobby (or lifestyle) that they LOVE. It doesn’t amaze me in the least that the PC literate visitors (with some time on their hands) of your new-tech site that love motorcycles happen to have some education beyond high school.
What AMAZES me the most about this site, is that COLLECTIVELY (contributers and readers that post) we have more of a brain trust than any other motorcycle manufacturer, with some VERY solid ideas of performance, rideability, looks, trends, customization and production, and it goes unheeded.
For instance, the “alternative fuels” topic that was covered should give the engineers at ALL the companies something to think about what people would like to see. Add the introduction of cheaper high strength composites and design cues that we ALL have put input on over time, and you quite possibly could corner the market on a new-gen of motorcycle. Its OBVIOUS to me at least that the people that read these pages are educated buyers that aren’t too afraid of technology, we are the new-gen of motorcyclists.
IF for example, we could get a tour/sport hybrid (alt fuel?) CF and titanium ABS motorcycle actually on the market that is AFFORDABLE and can be PROVEN to be a environmentally light footprint vehicle, I’m sure many of us would take a good look at it for purchase. And I’m sure that at closer inspection, we would notice design cues that have been suggested here.
kneeslider says
Well, … I guess when you put it that way … 🙂
FREEMAN says
BCASE: There are plenty of methods to prevent Al from breaking down when paired up with CFRP from alodine to coatings to paint to seal, etc. I perform them everyday at work. I believe CFRP is a magnificient material, however, it does have it’s own limitations and quirks that not everyone is familiar with. I’m not lying about those statements. I would hate to see anybody bolt up a carbon fiber motorcycle frame or aircraft with Al fasteners or parts and learn the hard way.
ROHORN says
Hoyt,
As far as frames go, I think the weight difference would be similar to that of a gallon of gas – not measurable by anybody on the street. The frame is a rather small percentage of the bike’s mass. Going to a tiny LiFePO4 battery would make a bigger difference. On the track, where budgets aren’t the limit, well, I see few to no CF frames. Why? Heck if I know. Same with wheels – they are available, but they are also banned from an awful lot of racing. I’m too lazy to look up which sanctioning bodies don’t like them. It is either an impact related safety thing or FUD thing – I don’t know which.
Just as changing from steel to aluminum frames required a lot of re-design, I think going from aluminum to cf is going to need another leap before it really works any better. In the mean time, Ducati still runs steel tubing. I know some serious aerospace guys who double over and laugh at cf bicycles with small diameter frame tubes (made just like the steel ones).
One thing that can be done with cf is, say, a pivotless frame/swingarm structure that only needs a damper and maybe a light suplimental spring for tuning purposes. I don’t know enough about the subject to design that – otherwise, my next bike would have that at both ends.
Ti isn’t as stiff as steel. You can make a steel axle weigh pretty much the same as the titanium one by gun drilling it – and it will have about the same (lower) stiffness as well by time you are done (I ran the numbers a long time ago and since forgot the details). I’m too lazy to look it up, but I think titanium axles and such aren’t legal in some racing anyway. Except for hot parts and springs that simply can’t be made from aluminum, I think titanium is grossly overrated stuff.
The big & heavy engine parts? I’m waiting for cf cases. As near as I can tell, most if not all GP cranks are heavier than they could be – for a reason. That pretty much leaves the exhaust, rods, and valves – lots of bikes are running those in titanium anyway. Transmission? It will never happen as far as I know.
The only way I see production bikes getting much lighter is by making them far more narrow focused. I wouldn’t mind seeing that happen.
hoyt says
interesting…(thanks for taking the time to respond)
Ducati’s GP bike now has a cf frame, which is a significant departure considering Ducati chose to ignore aluminum after all of these years.
ROHORN says
I might be wrong, but I thought the current GP08 is still running the steel tube frame – it is next year’s GP09 that is still being tested that runs the cf frame.
It is an interesting change for Ducati.
I’m trying to picture a fuel-in-frame Buell……
B. Case says
The Arrows F1 car of 2002 introduced a carbon fiber gearbox, and there’s a full prototype sitting in the Barber Museum. It’s pretty sick.
Picture:
http://scarbsf1.com/transmissions/T_arrows_box_2.jpg
T-Ray says
I love it when you all talk sexy.
Hugo says
Regarding the Ducati, may I suggest a small piece my good friend David Sanchez Calvo wrote about the Ducati GP9: http://bottpower.com/eng/?p=38
Azzy says
Lots of talk on carbon nanotubes, scary stuff.
Think of something with similar properties to asbestos, only it doesnt cut your lungs so much, some of the slivers are small enough to cut your DNA.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070417154357.htm
Somthing that should really be looked at before we start using it in everything.
trojanhorse says
@ lostinoz…
Hmmm, I work for a major motorcycle manufacturer, and I think you need a little dose of humility buddy! Haha, do you really think that the OEMs are unaware of any of the concepts/ideas discussed on this site? It would be really nice if we lived in a world in which the only criteria for what gets produced was a “good idea”…unfortunately there are pesky business concepts like profitability and feasibility that get in the way. As for the readers of this site being the “new-gen of motorcyclists” – whether or not this is true, what percent of the BUYING public do you think we represent? Remember, ultimately it all comes down to the dollar for ANY business! If you want to start a Charity for Good Motorcycle Ideas, please have at it and let us know how it goes!
B. Case says
lostinoz…
your enthusiasm for the site is noted, however, and as trojanhorse just pointed out, this site can be a great exchange of “ideas”. But, it’s a bit of a stretch to say concepts or ideas discussed here could collectively “corner the market” if only they could be produced. Jeez, even gaining 1% of the US market would be a monumental task.
I believe the ‘Slider is a great resource for moto news and has a significant amount of daily traffic. But, I would say the most exciting and healthy debates here center around “blue sky” ideas, not potentially lucrative business cases.
ROHORN says
What a lot of this tells me is that there is a hunger for a whole lot more than new model introductions/first impressions/road tests/shootouts in the motorcycle press. Except for Kevin Cameron, there is NO forward looking/technical writing worth a darn anymore in the US motorcycling press.
I agree that what sells and what is interesting is unrelated, but I could care less thinking about what sells the most. I’m not part of that market.
B*A*M*F says
Rohorn, I’m with you on Kevin Cameron. His writing is the bee’s knees. Fascinating stuff.
For the most part, I don’t even look past the cover of most motorcycle (or car) magazines these days. It’s all about the top superbike or supercar, or a “badass” piece of American iron. Nothing wrong with any of that stuff, but it’s generally pretty formulaic. I’m pretty easily bored and distracted so those types of publications have a hard time holding my interest after having read them for a few years.
This site is interesting because things get highlighted here that otherwise don’t see the light of day.
B*A*M*F says
@ Trojan Horse, you make some very strong points. Profit and manufacturability are healthy doses of reality.
However, you and I both know that what ends up on the production line has little to do with the latter. There is enough engineering and manufacturing talent and know how in the industry that darn near anything can be made these days. It’s all about profit, which is how a business is supposed to be.
The deciding factor in whether or not interesting ideas go into production is if the design and engineering teams have the capability to make compelling business cases that they can sell to management. Another 5hp for a sport bike speaks for itself, and if the ROI makes sense, then it will probably get the green light.
It’s also important not to discount the fact that big companies, particularly big Japanese companies, are often very risk averse and highly conservative in how they do business. Aside from Honda, I don’t really look toward any of the Big 4 or Harley Davidson for truly new concepts.
As the demographics of the American motorcycle buyers continue to go gray and certain market niches become saturated or dry up a bit, we will see several shifts in the motorcycle market.
The future of motorcycling is likely to show up here on this site long before it will reach the showrooms of the biggest motorcycle manufacturers.
trojanhorse says
B*A*M*F – well said and very true. The problem with revolutionary concepts is that they are also, by nature, risky from a business perspective. The large OEMs must strike a careful balance between innovation and pragmatism in product planning – but we definitely still have our eyes on the latest and greatest tech and trends…and the Kneeslider does a great job of covering many of those!
ROHORN says
From “Cycle’, May 1984 – Chassis & Suspension, Part 4, by (who else?) Kevin Cameron:
“This new form will have to be a complete concept – not just a mass of little impovements. It is hard to prove the advantages of wings by attaching them to a toad; they really do work best on a bird. To leap from a the toad to the bird is generally too radical a step for conservative business corporations. They have invested too much money in producing better toads.
The novel concepts, therefore, come from nutty individuals, many of whom seem to like change for its own sake. Because of this they can make mistakes that make even their good ideas appear laughable; consequently, these ideas must wait until traditional thinking is completely bankrupt. Then they are widely adopted and labeled “progress.””
Those were the last 2 paragraphs. Some day, all that is going over my desk.
lostinoz says
ROHORN,
Thank you for that, it appears that there are quite a few “nutty individuals” that frequent this site.
I’m going to print that out and put that above my desk as a reminder that the next time an employee gives me a “crazy idea” to sit down and actually think about it before dismissing it.
If two guys that worked on bicycles can revolutionize flight, why couldn’t a forward thinking motorcycle mechanic or salesman or parts person re-invent the next generation of motorcycle?
C.P.T.L. says
I had an interesting discussion at a local bicycle shop over a Trek Bicycles display piece, a section of their frame displayed to show off their expertise.
The conclusion was that carbon fiber is a substance all its own, with its own properties, something not easily comparable to other substances. For my own part, I’ve had difficulty grasping it; have generally assigned it to the realm of a super type of plastic.
It’s closer to metal.
When you bang it, it tings the sound of metal. It looked like it: black metal. It reminded me of those steel blue-metal paper clips with the chrome arms; I recall as a kid crushing one or two with pliers and they showed no effect until splitting-cracking: the sound and look of the CF lead me to expect it would behave similarly.
Considering it as a piece of bicycle frame, it was absurdly thin. Extremely light. It was hard as hell and it took a lot of force to show a tiny bit of compression to the end of the tube, or it might have been my imagination; otherwise powerful attempts to flex it seemed to cause nothing.
I quizzed them with many questions. Suppose I banged this piece as hard as I can? What if I had a hammer and hit it here? Does it dent? Bend? If I brought enough force to bear in order to cause it to fail, how would it fail?
The reaction was many smiles. The general answer: it would do nothing and never bend. Finally, it would fail totally, crack, spectacularly crack or shatter.
And for all of its apparent stiffness and hardness, the Cycle staff agreed with numerous articles I’ve read (including the Ducati piece Hugo) that CF absorbs vibrations very well; better than steel, titanium and aluminum.
Then, match that to the numerous warnings about CF bicycle frames, including Trek: if you bang it hard or crash, even if there is no apparent damage, don’t use the frame anymore.
Anyway, it made me think of the many experiences we all have over the years that create our conception of what a material is, how strong, durable, and ultimately, trustable. I’d like to take some CF sheets and tubes and bend them ’till they break, bang them with a hammer, whack things, pry things… There’s an alien quality to the stuff that some good old childish smashing would dispel by revealing its limits.
tim says
I disassembled a set of PACE RC35 mountain bike forks which have been lurking in a garage for a while. I bought them only for display purposes. I used hot soapy water to clean them, and the CF lowers went all white. Anybody know what that is? I used some metal polish and it reduced but didnt eliminate it. Also they’re made of aluminium bonded to the CF. Having read this thread, I’m very glad that they are for the garage trophy wall, not for use!
Ria Rhodes says
Next topic..ceramic bearings!