While cruising through recent patent applications I came across this design for a new poppet valve from Michael Czysz, designer / builder of the MotoCzysz. It’s pretty interesting. Instead of the usual circular valve we’re all familiar with, this design is triangular but not straight edged, it’s the shape you would get if you took sections of the circle and folded them over inward. The end result is roughly the same perimeter as the circular valve but in a triangular shape.
What’s the benefit? Well, for one it’s lighter. There’s less material since you have removed some of the central mass of the valve. Second, you can fit more valves in a given head area since the fingers can overlap in what would have been the circumference area of neighboring valves. Third, they will actually cool better since the perimeter contact area is the same but there is less mass to cool.
How well will this actually work? I have no idea since this is definitely outside my areas of expertise but from the descriptions given, it makes a lot of sense. Once you get past the odd appearance, the idea seems very neat.
Has this been tried in an engine already? That’s something we’ll have to find out but it shows Michael Czysz isn’t afraid to think outside the box.
More drawings below:
C. J. Luke, III says
I think that from a theoretical standpoint, all the things you said are a true benitit, however the practical application demands a very precise and demanding type of tooling to create mating surfaces that will seal properly. For those of you that have ever “hand lapped” valves, you will know what I am getting at here.
todd says
One benefit of a round valve head is that it slowly rotates in the seat when running. This allows it to wear more evenly on the seat as well as on the stem and shaft where side loads are imposed on it from the cam / followers. A round vavle also has a more uniform heat dispersion. I can imagine the three thin points on these valves would heat up much faster and hotter than the other parts and the tips may start to curl up. That heating may also cause some pre-ignition problems.
An ideal exhaust port in a head is as short as possible to minimize the amount of heat in the head. This design requires a very rapid transition from the triangle shape to round – unless the exhaust pipe has the shape as well.
It is my understanding that most of the high velocity flow occurs at the areas not directly in contact with the port walls. If that is the case this design seems to limit the effecal valve size considerably.
Call me Chicken Little, but I’m just being sceptical. Of course, I would have been one of the first to tell you the world was flat or that man will never fly…
-todd
wendell says
I’m still waiting to see one of those machines on the MotoGP grid……or anywhere for that matter.
Dane McCray says
I think its cool that designers are thinking outside the box of what makes a engine work. It shows that he is tring to progress the technology of the engine into something more. I remeber watching something when I was a kid on discovery or something like that about how maclaene was trying to make there super cars using trainglular pistons or different shaped pistions to try and further the develpment engines as a hole but also to put more in a small form, I think they were trying to get either 12 or 16 pistons that had the same power as the bigger version in the size of a small block V8.
Matt in NC says
I sure would like to see a different concept altogether. The idea of rotary valves has been around a long time, but someone should have come up with a viable, and inexpensive implementation by now!
These certainly look cool: http://www.coatesengine.com/index.html , but I’ve never heard of them before following the link from this page: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/RotaryValveIC/RotaryValveIC.htm .
C. J. Luke, III says
When you think about what a valve has to do, it’s not easy to beat what we already have. The perfect valve would be able to open and shut almost instantly while remaining in the full open position as long as possible. It needs to seal completely so that none of the routed gases leak past it and it needs as small an inertial moment as possible to handle the high rpm without robbing too much mechanical energy from the engine. It also needs to be as large as possible (for the cylinder size) in order to minimize the restriction of intake and exhaust gas. We seem to have taken the existing technology to near it’s limits in these areas. New lighter materials that can withstand the thermal and mechanical loads could improve the valve some, but other than that, there is not much that can be done. It would seem that “a new way” would be in order, I just don’t think this design is it.
PigIron says
It seems that one of the major benefits of this design is the *increased* velocity it provides.
Keith says
More valves , more parts = more trouble .
Hawk says
With F1 engines being arbitrarily limited to 19,000 RPM, I think the “round valves”, either pneumatic or electric, still have viability.
At the same time, if no one ever thought “outside the box” (and had a few blowups because of it), we’d all be walking.
Remember Burt Munro …..
chris says
Czysz has got a lot of seemingly brilliant ideas. i admire the guy for getting out there and risking the monetary investment on something that could very well turn out to be nothing at all. Cheers to him. that said. . . if all these ideas are working well and as expected, where’s the proof?
Gus says
“Keith Says:
August 30th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
More valves , more parts = more trouble .”
So your car still has a sidevalve engine, does it?
aaron says
man – I wish I had just ONE patent to my name. czysz is hogging them all! this could be cool, but I don’t know how well it works yet… I do know that for the asking price of the C1, every extra unique element helps. I give it one and 3/4 thumbs up!
hoyt says
Don’t forget EVERY part (and combination of parts) in a mechanical engineered application has a trade-off –> whether the tradeoff be heat, longevity, high maintenance, weight, cost to produce, etc. etc..
It’s an imperfect world.
Which design has the tradeoff with the least impact to the desired result? That’s the holy grail that, after more than a century of refinement, has not been found. And, as we get closer and closer, there will be differing opinions.
Nonetheless, it’s great seeing the evolution unfold in various directions.
If this design doesn’t work, it may spawn other ideas that were not capable of being conceived without this preliminary direction. Theory can get you fairly close, but actual parts need to be put to the test
anon says
I think todd above makes a good point about the possibility of hot spots causing pre-ignition. But since the problem is solvable for spark plugs, then they should be able to manage it with good head cooling.
What I wonder is if the odd shape could have an increased ability to induce swirl into the mixture, and increase combustion efficiency (more power)?
RH says
I fail to understand what those valves can do better than many small round ones. Unless, of course, someone is taking a page from the Honda Racing Strategy Book and trying to inspire the competition to waste time and money rather than do any meaningful development work.
chris says
well, wouldn’t that be just brilliant. . .
PigIron says
Looks like this years edition of the Honda Racing Strategy Book is missing a few critical pages! 😉
Ian MacLeod says
Let’s stir the pot a bit.
1.The shape is definitely a non rotatable shape? Suppose the valves were somehow mechanically spun 120 degrees for each lift cycle, timed so they didn’t interfere with each other. The rotation could happen at maximum lift. This would swirl the fuel-air mix, possibly with some combustion benefits.
2. Perhaps there are different valve arrangments that haven’t been shown, perhaps 3-4 of these new shaped valves could be arranged radially around a central cicrcular valve.
3. Maybe these are for extreme high rpm operation, and the flow characteristics work better, also higher revs would be mechanically more possible given the greater strength and lightness of these valves.
4. The cylinder head will be much stronger since there are thick webs of metal in between every valve.
5. There might be a benefit to intake charge velocity, since the intake tract is going to change shape and maybe cross sectional area. Maybe a high intake velocity with a ram effect?
Whatever Michaels intentions are with those valves, I think that they’re going to allow him to manipulate the intake and exhaust charges in some new ways.
Disclaimer : These comments are intended for entertainment use only and are only the opinions of an online benchracer.
Keith says
No gus , but it doesn’t have a 5 valve ”triangle” valve system .
Walt says
For reasons others have already mentioned (mainly the difficulty of lapping the valves), this’ll never happen. Where’s Honda’s oval piston idea? In a museum.
kneeslider says
When speaking about engineering and technology, one of the words that should be used with caution is the word “never.”
Advances in materials and manufacturing transform yesterday’s wild ideas into reality at a pace that is nothing short of breathtaking. Everything from synthetic lubricants, plastics, ceramics and even rapid prototyping make it possible to test ideas and toss out what doesn’t work, accomplishing the equivalent of years of development at yesterday’s pace in several months or less, today.
As the years go by, I am becoming far less certain of any limits related to technology. These valves may not have been practical even a few years ago, today, I’d be slow to bet against them.
PigIron says
You are absolutely right. Those difficult to machine shapes are now grist for the mills of modern CNC machine tools which are getting better every day.
RH says
Valve area is seldom the direct power limiting factor. A change in combustion chamber and piston dome shape can do a lot – that’s where 4 stroke design is a real pain. If the valves are shaped so the squish areas aren’t violated, then all sorts of possibilities arise.
Yeah, the Strategy Book hasn’t worked very well this year. No, I’m not happy or sad about that – racing is what it is.
Scott says
The only poppet valve that I am familiar with, is the one that is in my
Hop Rod. It is a 270cc 2-stroke engine powered pogo stick.
These were produced for a short time in the late 60’s.
[IMG]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/JustaVR6/hoprod4.jpg[/IMG]
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/JustaVR6/hoprod4.jpg
Gordy says
Just because it’s been granted a patent does not stop it being a pile of crap.
By the way, where is the Czysz MotoGP bike that was to be winning races by now? Say no more.
wendell says
amen.
Michael Czysz says
In the simplest terms a valves ability to flow fuel/air mixture is determined by its size and lift, more specifically the valves circumference X lift, this is commonly referred to as the valve curtain area. The solution I was looking for in this design was to reduces the mass of the valve, for increased RPM and reduced heat gain while maintaining or increasing the same curtain area as a standard valve.
The new valve has 3 segments / arcs, equalling approximately 60% of the valve circumference. These arcs are mirrored and thus are subtracted from the valve area while maintaining the same curtain area as the original valve in a lighter, smaller area. This means higher RPM and less heat absorption with the same ability of heat transfer (same perimeter) into the seats. With a smaller package more valves or curtain area can be achieved in the same bore resulting in improved volumetric efficiency. In addition fuel preparation and delivery should not be underestimated and may be improved with some development.
This is simply an idea, we prototyped and it seemed to have enough merit to apply for a patent. The idea did impressed a major company enough that they offered us some software we needed. So…. comment away if you must, but we did not disclose this idea to the public or are marketing it. It is simply a new idea and we are just conducting our business.
As for Gordy and Wendell- We are under no illusion or never stated we would be winning MotoGP races by now, though I appreciate your disappointment that we are not. What we have done is designed the best sportbike/superbike ever made in America. It is an unfortunate fact that to design and make virtually every part of motorcycle is a huge task and for a small start-up company with 14 employees to take a clean sheet engine into production simply takes time. For example the new Buell has been under development for the same amount of time as our bike (3 years) and they only wrote a engine spec.
This has been an unbelievable month of testing and data collecting I will post a report to our blog http://www.motoczysz.com/club/index.php in the next week.
Thanks for staying interested and WAY up to date, more news to follow soon.
Sincerely,
Michael Czysz
Paul says
Can’t see much benefit in that design at all, the complexity of the arrangement far out weighs any benefits, which to be honest are hard for me to identify.
Valves can not rotate off axis or will crash with valve seats. Speaking of which what would they look like, the seats that is and how hard to realize? Wet area looks to be less than a round valve. Perhaps the design a distraction or smoke screen?
Borneo Pierre says
The idea is a good one but I can’t see them for ultra high performance because it lacks port volume or throat volume. These valve would be perfect for economical engines, probably the narrow flow of air would create good turbulance at low piston speeds while its low volume flow will allow lower maximum valve lift so the piston would not need so much drastic holes to interfere in combustion chamber design. Can’t say fuel atomization as now days most things are going direct injection but if so this design would surely do up the mix well, certainly looks like it.
It will be a success but for economical, low fuel consumption designed engines. That is where its future is.