Can the government take a bad idea and make it worse? You betcha! The absolutely awful “Cash for Clunkers” bill may now be expanded to include vouchers for motorcycles, too. The details are sketchy on this boondoggle finely crafted piece of legislation, by Senator Bob Casey of Pennsylvania, but if you trade in your old car or truck, Casey wants you to get a $2500 voucher for a new motorcycle because the mileage is much higher and Harley has a manufacturing plant in PA. Not surprisingly, like cash for clunkers, it gets the support of some in the industry it helps, but no one ever asks the rest of us who are now paying toward the purchase of a new vehicle for our neighbors whether we want to or not.
The Cash for Clunkers legislation began this nonsense by giving buyers money toward a new car or truck if the old one was scrapped and the new one gets better gas mileage. Sounds great, if you benefit, your neighbors kick in for your new car or send money to your business, how nice. Think about it this way, if your neighbor came over one day and said he wanted you to hand over a few thousand dollars so he could buy a new car, would you give it to him? Well this program doesn’t ask, it just takes it. But let’s take the logic a little further, what industries deserve to be given your money? If they are having a hard time in this tough business environment and they have employees, the same arguments can be made to support the vouchers for their products, too. Who’s drawing the line here?
Following the impeccable logic of the original cash for clunkers legislation, if any new product is more efficient than the old one it replaces, then practically everything should be scrapped and replaced. Every appliance in your home, plus lawn mowers, weed eaters, snow blowers, and if you think about it, why not your entire house? A new one is almost certainly more energy efficient, let’s just bulldoze it and give you money toward a new one. The local builders will be sure to explain what a wonderful idea it is.
The less mentioned side effect is the number of older, yet perfectly usable, products now removed from the market and those looking for an affordable used item find fewer available and the ones left are bid up in price, making them less affordable. Even with a voucher, many folks can’t buy new and when the government gives money to buyers of new products they essentially take it from others who need to buy the affordable used item but which has now become more expensive, it’s a hidden tax on those with lower incomes.
Frederic Bastiat once said, “Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.” Unfortunately, we are now living in this fictitious world, or at least, many people are trying to make it come true.
Note to politicians giving away our money: You look more foolish and cynical every day by constantly adding people and businesses to your list of political beneficiaries, trying to buy votes with our money. Stop it.
Note to people and businesses taking the money: When you tell everyone how beneficial these programs are, you sound greedy and shallow and you think people believe you. Stop it.
I have a simple idea, let’s all buy our own cars, trucks, motorcycles or anything else we want within the limits of what we can afford. Then companies can build products that people want to buy. There’s no government bureaucracy involved either so we can start immediately. Let’s try that.
Link: JSOnline
Richard Gozinya says
Great post! Cash for Clunkers is an awful idea all the way around. Both from the fiscal perspective, and environmental. The fuel efficiency requirements are marginal at best, and nobody who’s saying it’s good for the environment seems to be considering the resources required to build a new vehicle, such as those metals, and plastics that go into every new vehicle.
taxman says
i don’t understand how anybody can think that this legislation is a good idea. and i’ll argue that anyone pushing it as a good idea has a vested interest in the success of the auto industry.
RobS says
Well said. When I talk to people about things like this that our government does, they never stop to fully think through where the money is coming from or what the larger ramifications of the program are as a whole.
verbal says
Now, this legislation may or may not be a good idea, but your arguments against it basically amount to “government shouldn’t do stuff.” I think we can both agree that there is some role for government in our lives– this may be an overreach, but it may not.
The argument in favor is that by reducing oil use, and thus the cost of gas, the project will also save you money; by reducing air pollution, it will cut down on the money people spend on asthma treatment; by reducing dependence on foreign oil, it will cut down on the money we spend on foreign wars; by keeping manufacturers and dealers in business during the recession, it will keep people from going on government assistance when they lose their jobs, and will keep the recessionary shocks from traveling any further – if the dealership employees no longer eat pie at your diner, you’ll be out of a job too.
The last of those effects is perhaps the only argument that holds water, and whether it’s a good idea to preserve those businesses is definitely up in the air.
That said, it seems likely that it will pass. I doubt that it’s the most effective way to stimulate the economy or the cheapest way to clean the air, but it also seems to me that it will do a little of both, and that’s not as bad as some laws I’ve seen.
Troy Cardenas says
For me this might not be a bad thing. 😉 I can trade my old 10 mile to the gallon 72 chevy pick-up for a $5000.00 Hyosung GT650. With simple math I should get it for about half price and finance it for 5 years and my payments would be about $45.00/mo. If I drove my pick-up everyday I would easly spend twice that, so the bike would pay for itself in about two and one half years.
How’s that for fuzzy math. Maybe I should be a senator. 🙂
Schneegz says
“it’s a hidden tax on those with lower incomes.” ~ Paul Crowe
Impossible! Pres. Obama promised that he would only tax the “wealthiest Americans”… you know, those scoundrels who make more than $500,000 a year… no wait, $250,000 a year… or was that $150,000 per year? Aw hell…
nobody says
Wait ’til “they” decide it is in everyone’s best interest that “they” choose which bike you ride, since “they” are paying for it – B-lasts for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!
But only for a little while – ’til “they” decide that motorcycle related injuries are too much of a burden on the socialist health care program.
Moby says
Tax, tile, license and finance charges will soak up $2500 easily. Not to mention the fact that this legislation encourages those who ‘cash in’ their clunkers to go into debt. And most likely there’s no way they can actually afford another payment (can you say bailout). The 15%APR money lenders probably love this.
SpaceWeasel says
How on earth does this make the program “worse”?
As a motorcyclists we should all be in favor of this extension of the program. The idea that more people might end up on bikes is fantastic. A larger constituency of bikers means more clout for us as a group.
Additionally, those who opt for bikes will be soaking up less of the tax dollars you are so intent on us not spending.
Oil consumption will drop, greenhouse gas emissions will fall, bike manufacturers will make some more money in a harsh economy – allowing us all to have more options in the future.
Tin Man 2 says
The people with money need an incentive to spend it, this is it. Rather then bailing out the Banks, This idea takes the Money and at least runs it through the economy, Dealers stay in business, manufactures keep their plants working and people get a break on vehicle purchases. The only way this loses is if the money is sent out of the country, Then it is gone with a very small benifit to our economy.
Phoenix827 says
Hate It !!! The lobbyist are killing us. Safe collapsible cars, clunker laws, crusher laws for salvage yards, its just a way for the people paying the lobbyist to sell more cars or bikes.I know a lot of the arguement is over pollution. I want someone once and for all prove to me that my clean running bike puts out more pollution than a the plant that produces the new one overseas. With all the operations it takes to produce a new bike and the fact that they do not have as stringent pollution laws they put out more producing one bike than I do in several years. As far as getting a new one cheaper, excuse me, I spent a long time and a lot of effort getting my bike just like I want it. I don’t want to start over. I think we are losing our freedom to laws and regulations that make money for the wealthy. I think George Orwell was right about “Big Brother” . He was just wrong about how they came to power.
Rich says
“Phoenix 827,” are you arguing that we should close all of the plants that manufacture cars and motorcycles? It would seem so by logical extension of your argument. And, yes, producing machines causes pollution. But it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Both the motorcycle/car we drive can be clean as well as the plant that makes it.
And then we bring in the veil of government conspiracy to take away our freedom! Puleeeeze – this is just ridiculous. If you like your bike then keep it. NO ONE is going to make you trade in your bike for a new one. So that’s a red-herring.
So is the analogy that you go ask your neighbor for several thousand dollars to help you buy a new car (or bike). Or that they ask you for the same. Given the number of taxpayers, and the limited funding in the bill, it’s more like your neighbor asking you for $5 to help with the purchase.
Is this a good policy? I for one don’t have enough information to make a decision. But I’m SURE it’s not the demon some make it out to be.
Cheers,
Rich
smithmotorwheel says
I wrote a paper in college that was an argument against vehicle scrappage programs in the early 90’s. It’s as wasteful now as it was back then. We’ve become a throw-a-way society. No one considers the effect that all the junk cars or (bikes) will have on the environment.
Sure, some of that scrap can be recycled. The rest of it gets buried in a landfill. But, why not repair and or improve what we’ve got right now? The last time I checked, most of the repair and restoration shops were American businesses. There’s no guarantee that the voucher money will be spent on a product with any US content at all. As for saving the HD York plant, I wonder how many people would actually buy a Harley with that money? I’d love to have a new one, but even with the voucher, I still couldn’t afford it.
Why not give up on the scrappage plans and allow a tax deduction for some of the purchasing costs a new vehicle that has more than 50% US content? They are already allowing a sales tax deduction for vehicles purchased this year. Let’s take it a step further. You could also provide incentives for people to improve or repair older machines to reduce their emissions.
lostinoz says
I personally am all for trading in cars for motorcycles! I would LOVE to see Mr. and Mrs. “too stupid to drive a car” trash their gas guzzling SUV’s for a pair of bike to be more “energy conscious.” It puts them on the same field as me until their brains are all over the highway. Yes, I’m all for it, FOR MOTORCYCLES ONLY to reduce population which will reduce the hydrocarbons. It will bring jobs on the market via the deceased’s jobs, health care professionals, and motorcycle training classes.
Now I KNOW I’m going to get slammed about that but wait lets make it even better, lets REPEAL all helmet laws for the same reason, It should reduce the population and quite possibly improve the gene pool by eliminating the dumber of the riders.
Again, reduce population, reduce hydrocarbons! Smart people will keep wearing helmets, and the rest? Well, if they stay lucky and never get into an accident to spill their brains, good for them. I personally will be wearing my gear.
48pan-notbeingjunked says
Asking your neighbor for $5 for this one… what about the next thing, well of course it is just $5 more dollars. I have no problem giving my neighbor 5 dollars for whatever, i just don’t like to be forced too.
I have to agree with the original post.. responsibility and common sense.
“I have a simple idea, let’s all buy our own cars, trucks, motorcycles or anything else we want within the limits of what we can afford.”
todd says
It’s only for ’84 and newer vehicles and, get this, it’s a rider on the war spending bill. Why must I buy a brand new car or bike? Can’t I just use the entire voucher to buy a good used $2500-$4500 Honda Civic? All of that money would go towards my neighbor selling the car. This doesn’t apply to my ’83 300D because it’s too old and gets too good of gas mileage at only 26MPG. I’m not about to sell my ’86 Westfalia for some junky, unreliable, new car either.
-todd
coho says
@ lostinoz:
Repealing helmet laws also increases the available pool of donor organs
so it’s win-win. 🙂
David says
In an effort to remain on this forum I will let wiser people than me express my thoughts
If an American is to amount to anything he must rely upon himself,
and not upon the State; he must take pride in his own work,
instead of sitting idle to envy the luck of others. He must face
life with resolute courage, win victory if he can, and accept
defeat if he must, without seeking to place on his fellow man a
responsibility which is not theirs.- Review of Reviews, January
1897.
Theodore “Teddy” Roosevelt
Government “help” to business is just as disastrous as government persecution… the only way a government can be of service to national prosperity is by keeping its hands off.
Ayn Rand
To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).
Ayn Rand
We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force.
Ayn Rand
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson
Phoenix827 says
Rich, did you notice I never said close alll the manufacting plants? No, you didn’t. But my old bike is slowly being taken away by clunker laws and crushers laws. The reason is I can’t get replacement parts. They make more money on a new bike. You obiously have a higher income that I do and can buy into their logic. Cheers back.
Kenny says
Whatever happened to public transport!?!?!?
And I must say I agree with lostinoz, I hate the nanny state, I want to be free to regret my own mistakes and if i’m lucky or smart, learn from them.
Tom says
Run your business into the ground? Government bailout!
Run your business well? Pay for the bailout!
Bite off more home loan than you can chew? Government program to help you!
Buying a house you can afford? Pay for the program!
Drive a gas guzzler? Government program to put you in a new car!
Drive a fuel efficient car? Pay for the program!
Kenny says
Sounds like the dreaded socialist government to me Tom 😉
Hawk says
Reading through these replies, especially those from David, I offer the following:
It is the month of August, on the shores of the Black Sea. It is raining, and the little town looks totally deserted. It is tough times, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit. Suddenly, a rich tourist comes to town.
He enters the only hotel, lays a 100 Euro note on the reception counter, and goes to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one.
The hotel proprietor takes the 100 Euro note and runs to pay his debt to the butcher.
The Butcher takes the 100 Euro note, and runs to pay his debt to the pig farmer.
The pig farmer takes the 100 Euro note, and runs to pay his debt to the supplier of his feed and fuel.
The supplier of feed and fuel takes the 100 Euro note and runs to pay his debt to the town’s prostitute that in these hard times, gave her “services” on credit.
The hooker runs to the hotel, and pays off her debt with the 100 Euro note to the hotel proprietor to pay for the rooms that she rented when she brought her clients there.
The hotel proprietor then lays the 100 Euro note back on the counter so that the rich tourist will not suspect anything.
At that moment, the rich tourist comes down after inspecting the rooms, and takes his 100 Euro note, after saying that he did not like any of the rooms, and leaves town.
No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now without debt, and looks to the future with a lot of optimism.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the United States Government is doing business today.
kreg kreeg says
WOAH!
keep the right wing opinions off of my beloved bike site.
set up a Politico blog for that
Nicolas says
Agree with Kreg, can we leave any politics out of here, and focus on motorcycles and people who build them ?
What I take away from this controversial bill, is that there is the motorcycle have not been completely forgotten by the legislators, it’s not much but it’s still a good sign.
Keep on keeping on !
Jordan says
I don’t qualify because my car already gets good gas mileage.
I have a feeling dealers are going to automatically increase prices because of the increased demand (artificial) for lower MPG cars. So the thousands of savings from this bill for consumers is not entirely accurate. The demand will increase prices and you’ll get a voucher from increased prices. I’m certain some markets you’ll come out even as if they never offered this voucher. It is poorly written legislation.
Richard Gozinya says
That is very likely, Jordan. I know that with those $40 government coupons for the DTV conversion boxes, the price on them went up, in more than a few cases, by $40.
Katya Mullethov says
To paraphrase a great American statesman , from times past when such was considered as much art as duty . ” We cannot , without the greatest corruption , appropriate the public money to buy people new scooters , and cars , and houses …………” He left for the Alamo not long after that , and it has been all downhill since .
Further insight into the minds of people that downt want DOTGOV in everyones business google “not yours to give ” +”crockett”
Doug K says
Aristotle said “Every country gets the government it deserves.”
Hold onto your wallets, kids, and keep telling yourself that it’s all for the good of the collective. The government does not care what the 48% of the country who didn’t vote for them thinks about anything.
Doug
marshall says
I, for one, appreciate Kneeslider’s judgement in choosing interesting motorcycles and relevant motorcycle news to put on this website. I’m glad to have learned about this addition to the Cash for Clunkers program. I think Kneeslider usually does a good job of provoking both sides of an argument about a unique or controversial motorcycle design.
Unfortunately, the opposite is true of any article related to politics that gets posted here. This article, like several past politics-related ones, was written so emotionally, one-sidedly and sarcastically that nearly all of the responses it provoked have been… emotional, one-sided and sarcastic.
“We’re looking for your interesting thoughts and ideas that add to the conversation.”
Kneeslider, if you really want to make this site a forum for political discussion, try encouraging a more interesting conversation by bringing up a couple arguments for and against the legislation. Otherwise you’re alienating people who see these issues in shades of gray, not black and white, and who probably have some interesting points to bring up.
Of course, personally I’m more interested in the motorcycles than the politics, and I wouldn’t try to make this a forum for political discussion in the first place. I imagine many readers share my opinion… but hey, it’s your site, not ours.
LN says
I enjoyed this article and the feedback it inspired. I check in here for my daily dose of two wheel news/trends and like it when I’m met by the occasional thought-provoking commentary. While I don’t always agree with the point of view, it’s great to have my own little water cooler to toss ideas around.
Less government makes for a better government.
kneeslider says
I knew this post would elicit reactions on both sides of the issue and some of you would not be pleased while others would love it. Those of you who disagreed, however, still followed, for the most part, the “interesting thoughts and ideas” guideline, which is what I hoped would happen. Honest people can disagree and discuss issues like this rationally. While I do not discuss government regulations or programs in general, this one was specifically aimed at motorcycles and I believe it is an appropriate topic for The Kneeslider.
Motorcycles do not exist in a sterile vacuum, the laws that apply to them, apply to us. Whether it is smog checks, lane splitting, helmet laws, noise regulations, insurance issues, custom builder emission waivers, or, in this case, purchase vouchers, we are the individuals affected.
This new voucher proposal is being promoted as an assist to the motorcycle industry, like cash for clunkers is promoted as assisting the auto industry, and, like all similar programs, only benefits are listed, without mentioning cost. Unintended consequences aren’t even considered. The “something for nothing” nature of the bill makes it appear to be all benefit, so, why not do it. While many of us are affected by various combinations of current government proposals depending on our jobs, businesses or other personal situations, if you’re reading The Kneeslider, this proposal, almost certainly, affects every one of you. If, as some of you feel, motorcyclists on a motorcycle related website should not comment on legislation aimed at the motorcycle industry, … well, who can?
Because of the world wide readership here at The Kneeslider, if I avoided every topic where someone might conceivably take offense in some manner, it would be impossible to write. If I mention reducing imported oil, my Middle East readers might not like it. Chinese motorcycle quality problems might offend my many readers from China. Explain why current government proposals affecting motorcyclists are a bad idea and supporters react as they have here. On the other hand, if my 5 years of commentary have done anything, it might have earned me at least the opportunity, to explain why I think something is a good or bad idea. I value the ideas of all of my readers if presented in a manner where we can rationally debate them and that is my intention here. Don’t be offended or shocked as though I’ve stepped into forbidden territory, think about what was said and respond in a logical and rational manner.
As most of you have probably noticed, I am extremely positive and I am a firm believer of the “get off of your butt and do it” philosophy. Proposals like these seem to reward businesses and individuals who have made poor decisions and are waiting for someone else to fix their problems instead of learning from their mistake and doing what is necessary to fix it themselves. They reinforce the “you’re helpless so we’ll bail you out” mindset. No individual or business is helpless! If you want to be offended, consider what the government thinks of your ability to help yourself when they offer giveaways like these. If you like being treated as a child, then I guess it’s OK.
Readers here come from every country and cover the spectrum from unemployed to every type of employee to students, small business owners and corporate CEOs. You’re not an homogeneous mass yet you’re all capable of doing extremely well without handouts, bailouts and incentives. So why don’t we all do that? We don’t need any more proposals for vouchers or cash incentives to direct us to do what others have decided is in their best interests. We can all decide to act positively on our own behalf. That is why I wrote this post, not because I wanted to tweak anyone’s nose, but because this proposal, like many similar proposals, is just plain wrong.
laurent says
Nice post scriptum, everything is political and the dereliction of personal responsibility has long term perverse effects.
I left Europe because I was fed up with absurd regulations and wanted to be able to run my business and live my life as I pleased.
It saddens me to see this country going the same way.
Best
David says
Well said
todd says
I come to this site daily BECAUSE people disagree, people are offended, and people offer view points that aren’t necessarily mine. We are free to post (within reason) any sort of response we please, anonymously if needed, and, Lord knows, I’ve received my fair share of heckling for some of my comments.
It’s no fun and I learn very little if everyone agrees with me. It’s best to get out of your comfort zone and experience new things and different opinions every now and then. Don’t move yourself into gated communities and don’t feel like you need to drink the kool-aid. Go ahead, disagree, ruffle some feathers.
-todd
redline says
great story, couldn’t agree more.
Government just needs to get out of our way, and let America be America.
shaun says
Or go to war to secure foreign oil instead of living within available supply?
David says
Shawn the USGS estimates 2 trillion barrels of in the Bakken oil fields here in the US. Many times more than all the oil reserves in the middle east. It is recoverable at thirty dollars a barrel.Why wont our government allow it to be tapped? I have a son in the Army and a son in the Marine corp I would hate to think they are fighting to secure foreign oil.
Phoenix827 says
I check this site almost everyday. I have to say it is my favorite site. It is always current with the industry and always thought provoking. I agrree with the “get off your tail and do” something attitude. I currently building a motorcycle because of that. With the economy I am building a high gas mileage motorcycle so I can afford to ride as much as I would like. Thank you for a great site.
Bonzo says
Hello!!!! We just bailed out the car companies and the banks, and ooh yea what about the war. Of course its a good idea for a few resons. One; if the people are buying new cars or bikes its putting people back to work. Two: Newer cars or mototrcycles are more fuel efficient (but its your chaice) three: It gets more motorcycles on the road- right? Isnt that good. Dont we like people to be more aware of the experience of rideing.
We just put money in the bankers pockets and thats OK I think its time to start thinking about your neighbor. Unless you live in a bubble of course
Tom says
“Unintended consequences aren’t even considered.”
I wonder how many folks are NOT getting rid of their old clunker and buying a new car or motorcycle right now because they’re waiting for this legislation to shake out?
Probably not a lot of folks, but you know, why sell your old beater for $700 when it ~might~ be worth $2500 on the purchase of a new motorcycle if you just wait a couple months?
chris says
The Government causes my head to spin. When will we let freedom ring?
Fudd says
How about looking beyone all the right wing government intruding hysteria and taking a look at what this proposal really is – an incentive that will encourage folks with ill kept older machinery to trade them in on safer, cleaner newer equipment. In terms of auto usage for those who view their cars as nothing more than another piece of utility, not unlike their toaster, this type of program is good for us all. I am happy to invest my taxes in it.
In terms of motorcycles, those of us who maintain our vintage iron need not bother with this issue. But if this program were to somehow encourages those riding around on junk to get something nicer then we all benefit.
Kevin F. says
Everyone always wants to complain, “Oh! The economy is so bad! Someone needs to do something about it.” Well “Cash for Clunkers” will not solve everything, but its a good quick solution that will put hundreds of thousands of jobs into play for the short term. Furthermore, getting rid of cars that would never pass emissions for newer, cleaner, more fuel efficient vehicles will lower our oil consumption, and lessen our carbon footprint squeezing a few more decades out of our dying planet, all so stupid people can out breed smart ones and run it into the ground later.
Chris says
I’ve got two crummy old Suzukis–wish I could get $2,500 a pop for them from Uncle Sugah towards two brand new bikes. Let’s stimulate the economy with tax dollars, yeah baby. I will TOTALLY take advantage of this if it passes.