The Harley Davidson V4 prototype photos you saw here recently got me really curious. Just exactly what was the Motor Company planning to do with these new engines? Well, if you ask the right questions to people who would likely know, you begin to tease the story out a bit, and if true, this is just mind boggling. It seems Harley had some big ideas, and I know I would have given them a very serious look if they had shown up at my local dealer. Oh, what might have been!
Not just one bike, a whole family of V4s!
It seems much of the impetus was coming from Europe where the the big Harley cruisers were not selling so well and the marketing folks were getting restless. The result was Project Overlord, a whole family of BMW like bikes aimed primarily at the EU market. From what I could gather, there would have been a sport-tourer, a big and heavy adventure bike and a street fighter with performance somewhere in the range of the Suzuki B-King. A high performance Harley!
The project was begun during the tenure of James Ziemer, who was at the helm of Harley until 2009. Keith Wandell, who took over afterwards, evidently killed the project during the restructuring that included selling off MV Agusta and shutting down Buell. Remember, those were very rough economic times.
A lost opportunity, will it ever come again?
Can you imagine what this would have been like? An entire new family of Harley Davidson V4s? Of course, the bikes were aimed at Europe, but is there any doubt they would have made their way over to the USA? On the other hand, what would the current Motor Company customer think of the change? How many new customers would they have had walking in their doors? Questions we may never have answers for, but we can certainly dream, can't we? If the recession hadn't hit when it did, as hard as it did, there might have been an entirely different look to your local dealer. Wow, ...
todd says
Is there any reason to think they would have sold any better than the existing Buells? Maybe they would have sold on specifications alone, maybe. Maybe that was a bet Wandell didn’t want to wager.
-todd
Paul Crowe says
I’m not second guessing Wandell, here, as noted in the article, the recession made some decisions necessary that would otherwise have been nice to see go the other way.
Yeti2bikes says
I have to admit that I am intrigued, but even though I currently own a Fatboy and a Buell, I’m far from a ‘Harley or nothing’ type. I have owned many metric bikes through the years and will probably own a few more before my time is done, so I don’t know if I fit in the usual Harley customer demographic or not. I’ll ride anything!
Paul Crowe says
If there had been resistance from current customers, it wouldn’t have been “Harley or nothing,” more of an “air cooled V-twin or nothing” issue, and I have no idea why anyone would want to take a position like that. I think these would have been a big plus in the lineup, especially with multiple models to suit a wide range of customers.
Of course, it’s a moot point, the project seems to be dead. Maybe someday …
Yeti2bikes says
That was my point Paul, I have no idea why anyone would take that one or the other only mentality, but look at the sluggish sales of the V-Rod for example. It didn’t appeal to the Harley faithful even though it was a decent bike. It didn’t exactly sizzle at bringing new riders that would have previously bought metric either. I hope they have better luck with the Street series.
I don’t know how many of the ‘faithful’ this bike would have sold to either, but I sure would try one out. Then again, I’m not faithful.
DerekJones says
The sluggish sales of the V-Rod are down to lack of improvement or innovation. The more powerful engine should be in their heavier motorcycles. My friends who thought about buying one didn’t like the riding position so they got something else. They should use an updated version of the V-Rod engine in some of their other motorcycles. a Street 1250? People who want a Harley that isn’t slow have one option, the V-Rod. If something like the riding position is a deal breaker they just won’t buy a Harley.
Paul Crowe says
Interesting side note, the Revolution engine found in the V-Rod was a project started by Buell, but Harley wanted some things one way and Buell another, Harley won and the engine evolved until it no longer worked for the bike Erik wanted to build. So it was headed for a sportbike way back when.
I interviewed Erik back in 2007 and he talks about it.
Drive The Wheels Off says
What did BMW (and to some degree Triumph & Ducati) do during the same rough economic times? I think BMW outsold the Japanese at their own game, the in-line 4 liter bike segment. Think about that…
the Japanese have been at that segment for decades. BMW launched the s1000rr in 2009. Previously, their highest performance, sport motorcycle was the BMW HP2 Sport.
Lost opportunity for HD? Definitely, but there’s more warranted criticism than just stating HD had to tighten their budgets. Their lack of genre diversity (& consequentially) the market’s perceived inability for HD to build & service performance motorcycles are perpetuating HD’s inability to do anything else, regardless of economic conditions.
BMW had some performance brand perception problems (their highest performing, sport motorcycle prior to 2008 was the HP2 Sport boxer). However, they not only took on the unthinkable segment but won at it during this same economic period.
I’m ready to consider performance from HD but a lot has to change. It shouldn’t have taken the Europeans pleading & begging HD HQ for something else. Look at the sales and net income figures that HD realized long before 2008-09 within this post…
http://thekneeslider.com/?s=eller+industries
Paul Crowe says
Of course, BMW has a little auto business that can help finance the motorcycles if things go slow. Motorcycles are a small fraction of their auto sales.
With Harley, bikes are everything and when sales plummeted and many new bikes they sold were getting repossessed creating a really good second hand market, no one was buying from the showrooms. Did Harley plan poorly when times were good? There’s a case to be made for that idea, but when things crash, you have to act quickly to save the company.
I don’t know if it could have been handled differently, there are very few people who were in a position to know exactly what was at stake and what options were available, keeping these V4s on the back burner until things began to recover would have been nice and maybe, somewhere, there’s a way to bring them back. Is there any support for it inside the company? Judging from past moves, I doubt it.
Drive The Wheels Off says
Did BMW’s auto segment finance the launch of the s1000rr ? Regardless, below is HD’s financial picture year after year for numerous, consecutive years. Combine that with diversity and you don’t necessarily need an auto business.
2003 revenue = $4.62 Billion
2003 net income = $760.9 million
2004 revenue = $5.02 Billion
2004 net income = $889.8 million
Triumph, Ducati, & KTM don’t have a “little auto business” either but they do have genre diversity. This diversity is the point that would have made the HD v4 more than a dream.
Bob says
I’d really hate to see what is considered a good resume for working at H-D anymore.
“My goals are to curate stale ideas and attain a restrained level of mediocrity that will prevail at the median of sustainability…”, ew, nevermind, I still have to eat dinner…
Slowtire says
Grow up.
Bob says
That reminds me: How long ’til they are done with their R&D (I.e., marketing) program on the new line of badass power assisted oxygen totes?
Or caskets?
Bob says
My apologies for taking this all the wrong way. I should be seeing this as an example of potential excellence that was not just missed, but intentionally dropped, and, as a result, an opportunity for more highly motivated iconoclasts to do something exceptional.
Thanks for the motivation, H-D. The future doesn’t have to be so dull after all…
Paul Crowe says
There are, most likely, people within H-D more than willing to design and build a high performance bike, but it doesn’t seem those people are in a position to make it happen. When decisions were made about what to cut and what to keep, Buell was booted, these V4s were killed and the company circled the wagons around their standard models. Does that mean everyone in the company is anti-performance or anti-innovation? No, but if performance and innovation is what you’re after, the career path within Harley is probably limited.
The Motor Company seems very hesitant to move into performance or anything that seems to de-emphasize their cruisers and it may be there is such a distaste for it within management it will never happen. The company may even recognize they have stayed away so long that any move back in that direction would be suspect.
Oddly enough, there is one exception to this V-twin focus, at the same time the V4 is out of place, they are experimenting with electric motorcycles. If you think a Buell was a bad fit in a Harley dealership, just wait until you see dealer staff pushing plug in bikes. Bold or crazy? Stay tuned.
Racetrack Style says
I agree there are talented engineers & staff among the HD ranks that not only want to build performance bikes but are capable of it, too. That makes the whole situation aggravating (from the 60s – present day). If those people also ran Ford, GM, & Chrysler we’d only be driving trucks and sedans.
They have said ‘No’ to performance bikes for so long that the Market is wary of HD being capable of building & servicing performance bikes, regardless of the economic conditions. There’s still time for this to change with the right people in place. In the meantime, this type of project will do great with a different type of performance…
https://www.facebook.com/125956072175/photos/a.10152006296812176.1073741825.125956072175/10153207684402176/?type=1&theater
Racetrack Style says
After editing the comment, I mistakenly omitted a portion that mentioned “decision makers”. Those are the people that I refer to at the end of the first paragraph & beginning of the 2nd paragraph above.
Matthew Jagusak says
It is unfortunate that Harley made this decision. Understandably, they are a conservative company with a long history. However, their “core” market is aging rapidly and the V-Twin generation will quickly be replaced by the younger rider who grew up on Japanese high performance bikes. This project would have moved the company forward and modernized in one swoop.
Peter says
It’s a stretch, and mostly wishful thinking, but I couldn’t help noticing how “Italian” that 3-D printed model looks with the inverted forks, radial mount calipers, single-sided swing arm, etc. Then, when I read that MV Agusta has announced a “completely new four-cylinder platform” with four new models launching next year, my mind (or heart, mostly) put two and two together and came up with quattro. If only it were the case that H-D had MV do the design work for these models before being jettisoned, and now MV will reap the benefits of that collaboration by introducing the platform under the MV brand. It is to dream, eh?
Joe says
That plastic prototype looks really cool !
I just wonder why they can’t create a separate performance division of the company under a different name similar to what Polaris has done with Victory.
It’s time for a Buell-like sportbike under a separate segment of the company that is distanced enough from their primary line so as not to muddy the image but one that will open the door to a massive, neglected genre of the motorcycling market.
If they can go as far as they have to the polar opposite extreme with the Livewire and the huge extended marketing pitch for that totally alien machine with a dubious two wheel market, why not a real performance line with an established market?
Joe
Hawk says
Things are definitely changing at H-D:
http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_CA/home/events/press-release/general/2015/news3.html
Read between the PR dept. BS. How soon the Motor Company forgets about Trev Deeley’s counsel that saved their sorry asses in the early 80’s. I was a friend of Trev’s since about 1948 or so and had some long talks with him about his days as a Director.
Alvin Long says
I have a 1984 Honda Sabre for a long time I only wish that Honda brought it back with a few refinements when they came out with the 1200 !! OH! sorry this is about Harley’s I’m old I forgot, I had Harley’s when I was kid back in the 60’s I bought mine with the land plows, any of you remember that ?
Meh says
There is a company which should do that sort of thing and its name is Polaris. HD should stick to its traditional guaranteed revenue stream.
Anthony James says
Harley Davidson….. V4 ? What a dream machine that would be !
I remember the thrill of riding in the sidecar of an Ariel Square four, and having to control the throttle with a pair of pliers on the broken end of the cable ! What a ride that was !! Those were the days eh ?