Every sport has its share of controversy, whether it involves a human athlete like the Olympics or motorsports like auto or motorcycle racing. Those controversies usually center around the rule book, in the Olympics it’s age rules or doping rules, they’re too young or they took some performance enhancing drugs, and in motorsports it might be a special engine modification or tire or weight restriction or aerodynamic shape. I have a suggestion for motorcycles that could eliminate controversy and apply across the board to many other sports, why not toss out the rules? Seriously. Let’s have at least one “unlimited” class that means exactly that, it has no limits. You specify the race circuit, the distance and for motorcycles say the vehicle must have 2 wheels. See you on race day.
The first obvious objection is cost, how many could compete in a no holds barred race? Not very many most likely but the factories race MotoGP and even with restrictions build motorcycles at astronomical cost, what is accomplished with a displacement limit, or for that matter, the number of tires used all weekend for the race or weight or anything else? The drop from 990cc to 800cc gave us faster bikes than before. Maybe the sweet spot is even smaller or larger or lighter or who knows?
Define the race, not the machine.
Maybe the engines should be 2 strokes again or rotaries or turbines or electric or hybrid. Run whatcha brung. You pretty much see this sort of thing at Bonneville and it’s primarily privateers.
If racing different types of motorcycles together seems dangerous, have a race for lap times. Remember, this is still on the same road courses as before, maybe the current MotoGP bikes are the best anyone can do, maybe not, but wouldn’t it be neat to know? Some factory prestige or bragging rights could propel a series like this.
Suppose some company builds an electric bike good for 30 or 40 miles and hires a Rossi or Spies to turn some fast laps. Could be interesting.
Some long distance auto races have become economy runs where when you make a pit stop could cost you the race or if you can get by on 2 instead of 3 stops you can win. When diesels started dominating recently in the LeMans series, they began adding weight to the class. Why? Why not let the diesels dominate until someone else figures out how to beat them? How about who is fastest wins? That sounds better to me.
The winning difference might be weight or tires or something besides the engine, too, who knows what someone might dream up. No rules sounds pretty good when you hear all of the latest dustup about the new AMA/DMG rules for the new classes or when someone who wins gets disqualified for some violation. I just think a no rules race would be interesting. How about you?
Hugo says
Sounds interesting but personally I think the biggest reason why motorcycles went faster the last years is tires; especially the tire competition between Bridgestone and Michelin ment motorcycle went faster and faster. Off course an unlimited class would be interesting but some rules must apply; maybe a maximum speed of 300km/h? Somebody has to ride the thing and current MotoGP bikes are already missiles and we want to see these guys finish in one piece, don’t we? That is one of the reasons rules are there.
kneeslider says
“an unlimited class would be interesting but some rules must apply”
What rules? Why?
What is the absolute minimum number of rules necessary and what is the reason for each?
Ry says
Most of the rules are there for safety.
This is a great idea though it would spawn innovation at a accelerated pace. I don’t know if the factories would be the only ones with the money to support it , there is allot of brilliant people doing great things out of their garage that would love a chance to see how they fare in a real race.
Good yet dangerous idea Paul!
Steve says
To keep costs down / realistic, you could introduce a “must be offered for sale rule”. All bikes must be available for sale at the end of the season, as raced, any and all modifications it raced with during the season. i.e Engine, Engine management system, Suspension, Wheels etc, etc and offered for a maximum price.
Say a $100K Class?
The bike that won the season must be offered for sale and sold at a maximum price of $100K. The bike that came last in the season must be offered for sale and sold at a maximum price of $100K, if no one wants to buy your bike, or you’re not hapy with offers under $100K you keep it. (But you are free to sell it for less than $100K if you want).
A privateer with $100K and the first bid, could then race the next season on last seasons No1 factory bike.
BILL says
this is a great idea, they do pretty much the same thing in sportscar and vintage sportscar racing, yes there are rules and classes, but there all on the track at the same time. it could work the same in a bike configuration, organize your classes by type and size and then throw in an unlimited class for the creative types. that would be some great racing.
GoRogerGo says
Everyone keeps saying this rule or that rule is needed. Except for a few very basic safety concerns they are not. Even those can be on a scale as speeds increase, like Bonneville. BTW Bonneville is a great example of how this can work without being a cubic dollars fest. Look at the old Can-Am racers (snowmobile engines powering fans for downforce!), or the former Group B rally cars to see the beauty this could bring. Unfortunately these type of things burn fast, but seldom burn long. That’s the real problem, but oh what innovation.
PaulN says
I think this is a fascinating idea. It conjures images of Star Wars like pod races for me, and it might spark some interest in motorcycle racing as a whole. Also, winning on a motorcycle seems to depend more on the racer than the machine, which I believe would even the playing field of those thinking they can just buy a win.
As long as it’s got 2 wheels and doesn’t barf oil on the track, you can race it. Cool.
Rwr Wdnnr says
The idea is no rules other than for safety, if a person wants to race and risk his neck, then no limits on size, speed, and ect. Only safety device rules would or should apply. Nothing about winner must sell it, no building 500 of them for sale, it is build your idea in your garage and lets see how fast the dang thing will go.
anon says
Agreed. Formula Libre for bikes! Now THIS would make for interesting machinery and real innovation.
If you’re worried about disparate lap times, then just do a 107% percent qualifying rule.
Formula Extreme is close.
Aaron Weber says
I’ve also seen suggestions for series where the rules are aimed at fostering innovation: “No more than 10 gallons of gasoline,” for example. Or a weight range for vehicles but nothing else.
Insurance would require something aimed at safety, and zoning/neighbors/noise would require some noise-abatement rules. But that’s about it I guess.
Sean says
It would be a good idea so long as it didn’t compromise rider safety. Having a 600 throw a rod at 16000rpm is scary enough never mind a couple hundred turbine blades coming apart at 100 000rpm a couple inches from my junk.
I think if you had a race against time rather than against each other would make it easier for people to design stuff further outside the conventional box. Let’s say you have one team with a really long bike that doesn’t turn but makes 400hp and runs a 1:28 and you have a super light short bike that turns like crazy and makes no power but still runs a 1:28, would make for some interesting lap time battles but without the danger of the corner speed bike inadvertently ramming into the top speed bike mid corner or whatever.
Would you have it be a one-lap affair or would you make it so that you take the time of several laps?
Aaron Weber says
You know, I’ve also heard suggestions of this sort for sports, especially some kind of alternative Olympics. Allow any legal doping method, require disclosure, and watch the records fall. The goals are multiple: Bring the doping out into the open so it’s safer (they’ll do it anyway, after all), and foster innovation in performance enhancing medicine.
Jim Jack says
Remember Can Am, the original? Best auto racing events ever. No rules. One car showed up with four snowmobile engines, one for each wheel. Innovations included wings, the vacuum car, supercharged Porsche 917s, etc etc.
In a word .. EXCITING
kneeslider says
“One car showed up with four snowmobile engines, one for each wheel.”
You mean this one?
deckard says
I think all the hype of MotoGP being a prototype series is overblown. The sillouhettes of MotoGP bikes have barely changed for over 30 years, and to the average viewer it is difficult to distinguish MotoGP bikes from production-based Superbikes.
I say open it up. If any rules should be applied, it should be to limit the amount of fuel (any type allowed) and set a maximum emission level.
In some ways the current trickle down from MotoGP to the street is pure masterbation. Streetbikes are already too fast. How about trickle down that gives up GSXR750 level performance, but with 80mpg and less emissions than a Prius.
hoyt says
Hillclimb Motorcycle racing currently has an open class. Road racing’s turn (pun intended)
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/02/14/motorcycle-hill-climb-racing-a-look-up/
Aaron…I disagree about the doping olympics. If ever there was a time in humanity to return to something tangibly legit, the last 50 years have reached its lowest point
B. Case says
I don’t know about you guys, but I really enjoy watching battles for positions in moto races. Like a good battle for first between Rossi and Stoner in GP for instance, or a battle further back for podium. That emotion is something you don’t get with a race against the clock. Mano y mano.
Not that clock racing is bad. It’s just different.
That being said, I think a class as Paul proposes would be great as long as it still allows competitors to be on the track at the same time. Simple classes would make sure there isn’t 2-wheelers going up against hover-bikes. Clearly, the competitors in the field HAVE to be somewhat evenly matched, otherwise people will get bored. Olympic swimming and Michael Phelps comes to mind. But, an all-electric bike against a conventional ICE could be fun.
John says
I love this idea,it’s exactly what I’ve been looking for and why I complain to friends about how boring racing is now with all the rules.All Hondas in Indy and all the cars the same in NASCAR.It’s funny the first guy to respond wanted a bunch of rules,must work for the government.
Gus says
“It’s funny the first guy to respond wanted a bunch of rules,must work for the government.” Yeah, he must, cos government is just out to stifle our fun all the time. Get a grip idiot, some rules are just common sense.
Mark L. says
As a former motorcycle roadracing team owner and engineer working on the 1250SC, I want to put in my two cents on the no-rules class.
In the early to mid 90’s, exactly this format was created and raced for several years. It was called Formula USA, and we raced it.
The rules were really basic. Front and rear wheels and brakes. Internal combustion engine. Any fuel or additives were legal. Turbocharging, supercharging, nitrous. All legal.
It had everything from world level 500cc F1 2-strokes ran by none other than Kenny Roberts, to 250cc GP bikes bored and stroked to 305cc with nitrous oxide injection for “passing power” to turbocharged CBR900RR’s making way over 250 hp.
The riders ranged from Rich Oliver and Robbie Peterson to backmarkers, and the fuel was everything from gasoline to alcohol. It was truly unlimited.
The bikes were spectacular, but the racing was not as close as you would think due to the differences in power delivery and rider talent. As neat as it sounds, the no-rules racing class is not really great racing. 2 stroke 250’s need an open track for high corner speeds, and if they get behind a turbocharged 900, they can’t pass it. The turbo 900 can’t follow a 500cc motoGP bike into a corner, but eat it for lunch on the straight stretches.
Alcohol burns invisible. (Ask Lee Shirts about that!) So lets ban alky for safety.
The Mcintire boys with their 217mph Turbocharged Hondas that don’t turn well or stop short have an 80MPH closing speed on the stock 250cc 2 strokes, and a big difference in the lines they take, so lets ban turbos and blowers, and nitrous keeps breaking cylinders off, so lets get rid of it as well….
Rules are there to make the racing interesting.
I agree that some of the classes could benefit from some freedom, such as a “performance indexing” meaning that a Guzzi should have more displacement or mods allowed than a CBR600 to be competitive, but having “Been there done that” in unlimited racing, it’s not all you would think it is.
You spend a lot of money, but what wins is really a lot closer to a stock 750cc or 1000cc than you would think.
Yes, there is such a thing as too much power in racing. Tires, brakes, and rider have problems coping with it.
Light weight carries the penalties of development costs and durability issues, and even on the factory level, I shudder to think of the cost of a MotoGP bike if they suddenly declared that it could weigh say 275 lbs, instead of the current 360 lbs. (275 lb 4-strokes are doable)
I would suspect that you would make the MotoGP class unaffordable for everyone at that point, because Kawasaki or Suzuki would have to reduce weight to make up for their current performance deficit, and then Ducati or Honda would have to follow to regain lost ground, and here we go again….
Most rules are done to steer development into a specific direction, and to help control costs, or to limit performance. Unfortunatly, rules can have unintended consequences.
Make MotoGP bikes smaller displacement to slow them down. Real result: more expensive and a lot faster.
Anyways, this will give you some food for thought.
No rules don’t always make something better or more exciting, and often it makes it more expensive and slower.
For example, take a stock CBR900RR and lap your favorite track, and then take a turbocharged CBR900RR that makes 250+ hp and lap your same track. See which one costs more and is also slower…..
Think about it, and then decide which rules you really want, and how to get there.
No rules is not the way forward.
Mark
PS- I personally think the new Daytona Superbike class is a great start. (By the way, created by Roger Edmondson, the same guy who created F-USA in the 90’s) So he knows where he needs to go…
ROHORN says
Yeah, nothing provides “fun” or “common sense” like a governing body, civil or motorsport.
MotoAnarchy? Sounds almost as good as the Big Twin racing series idea…..
In my opinion, virtually every “common sense” idea from the FIM/AMA etc.. has been idiotic.
Mark L. says
I guess what I am leading to is that a racing motorcycle has to achieve that mystical “balance” that everyone refers to. Most people when they think “no rules” are looking in an area that they perceive that they have a weakness in.
Honda is faster, so I need more power, no rules lets me be as fast as Honda etc. Side effect: less economy so we can’t finish, so develop the motor for efficiency, cost out the window etc.
enough power to lead, enough brakes to stop, enough wheelbase to stop and go with both wheels on the ground, but still short enough to turn, but still have enough fuel economy to finish the race.
I think if the factories were given a no-rules class and the mandate to win “or else” that you would actually see bikes very similar to the MotoGP bikes that are there now, with a lot less weight, not much more power or displacement, (if any) and they would be HUGELY more expensive, and would be less than 1 second a lap faster than they are now.
Balance achieved with well developed rules makes great machines and racing.
No rules start out with overdevelopment in one area, then catch-up work in the areas made deficient by the initial development, (usually engines, tires & chassis).
Followed up by reductions in power, displacement, and weight. All of which are done to achieve that magical balance of weight, power, and economy to win.
Bring your printing presses, you’re gonna need to print a LOT of money to do it.
Mark
tom w. says
I always like thinking about different racing classes.
One that I’ve always thought would be interesting is: Maximum $15,000 off the showroom no mods allowed (except tires and removal of lights, turn-signals etc.).
Run it on very twisty tracks so light weight can compete with brute force.
. . . and have at it.
ROHORN says
Mark,
What caused interest in F-USA to go away; Rule creep – or – The problems the rules were supposed to fix? Personally, I think lots of lead changes due to hardware differences can make racing a lot more interestng to watch. Otherwise, it is like watching MotoTapeworm. Yawn.
I may be wrong, but I thought the whole F-USA thing started at Willow Springs (with “The Terminator – a cut down Ninja ZX1000 being the champion bike) then went WERA after that. All of which probably falls under the heading of trivia.
ROHORN says
Mark,
As much as I like the idea, I can’t argue with anything you’ve said.
FREEMAN says
I like the idea. I’m just not sure how it’d all work out.
Sean says
A series based on power/weight ratios would be kinda fun.
TT says
I love this idea, it’s exactly what I’ve wanted to see since I was a kid. It would be a breeding ground for innovation and that’s mainly what interests me. The only rules need to be two tires touching the ground and a braking system of some sort (don’t limit the type, again, innovation). Bring your helmet and leathers (there’s your safety), lotsa cojones, and some clean undies.
If a person is willing to enter a race riding a bike capable of ridiculous speed, he/she should already understand the dangers involved. Racing is supposed to be dangerous, and unlimited racing should be more so. The danger is a large part of the appeal, IMO.
Who cares if the bikes aren’t evenly matched, that’s not the point. So what if a turbocharged CBR900RR rides differently than a 250GP bike? That’s no reason to ban forced induction. That’s maybe a reason to find another way around the most obvious solutions. If you can’t make the CBR lighter or the 250 more powerful and you aren’t winning races, you might need to start thinking outside the lines. Maybe (probably) neither would be the best choice as a starting point, but I would be hugely interested in seeing what kinds of drivetrains and chassis designs would come about as a result.
Also, if an Unlimited Class like this were ever started, I would suggest why limit the racing to just road racing style tracks. Maybe during a season there could be a couple of stops at oval tracks, a few drag racing events (1/8, 1/4, standing mile), and a stop at Bonneville just for fun. But I see where that could go against the anti-rule theme because you’d need rules concerning what/whether anything can change on the bikes for the different events. It would be cool so see what they all could do in different areas, though.
GenWaylaid says
Perhaps we should consider short racing series set up like scientific experiments. Pick one variable you want to test, and set everything else as similar as possible.
Want to test rider skill? Give everyone the same bike. Of course this also measures mechanic and pit crew ability, cheating ability, etc.
Want to see how efficient race bikes can be? Fix the total fuel energy content that can be used during the race and keep ratcheting it down from year to year.
Want to see how fast bikes of a certain type can go? That’s what Bonneville is for. Same question, on a road track, just let people post lap times without jockeying with each other.
Want to test the viability of an alternative fuel or drivetrain? Mandate that fuel or drivetrain and leave the rest open. This could be exciting if a number of different technologies each ran small heats over the course of a race weekend.
That said, I am in favor of a Can-Am like “anything goes” race. When a lot of very different bikes go out on the track, though, large closing speeds could become a safety issue. I think this problem could be sidestepped by breaking the field into classes based on some combination of lap times and straightaway speeds. Race the slowest class first, then build up to the really fast bikes.
What I don’t like are racing series with such complicated restrictions that one has to be an expert to spot the subtle differences between the machines. It’s hard to say just what a win in such a series proves. Was it the rider? Probably. The technology? Maybe. Gaming the rules? Almost certainly.
P.T. Anderson says
#1. I’m all for a nearly unlimited class. Bring back the 250cc inline 6 twincam 4-valve engines, the dustbin fairing, oval pistons or turbo charging for example. I like the idea of “If you can’t beat it – get better” mentality. NO WHINING!
#2. Why it won’t work… Racing organizations are in it for the money and close racing seems to sell in spite of strangulating rules – see NASCAR. If you can’t beat it – ban it mentality is overwhelming and to me nauseating.
The vast majority of fans want close racing, it’s more exciting at least in the short run and they buy the tickets. In the long run it will stagnate any racing series. Then those that are making the rules are forced to make small (the recent Moto GP displacement change was mentioned) sometimes silly looking changes to keep it new and improved! Oh well… I could go on but what’s the point. As soon as big money gets involved it’s done for.
Chris says
@ Mark:
I think if the factories were given a no-rules class and the mandate to win “or else†that you would actually see bikes very similar to the MotoGP bikes that are there now, with a lot less weight, not much more power or displacement, (if any) and they would be HUGELY more expensive, and would be less than 1 second a lap faster than they are now.
Other than being expensive, how is this a problem exactly? Colin Chapman would be proud of the requirement to “add lightness”, something bikes — and cars — could generally use a lot more of.
cl
B*A*M*F says
I like the idea of a Can-Am style no rules series, but unless it were actually covered, I probably wouldn’t watch it. Honestly, I think that’s what any pro or semi-pro sport needs to make it these days.
Personally, I’d rather see an unlimted/limited series. Basically, you can do anything you want under a certain budget (and as long as you can pass a basic tech inspection). It’s got great opportunities for TV. The teams/builders could get some TV time like biker build off, and then the racing could be shown. The two things could feed one another.
christopher says
Mark – i gotta say, i’m disappointed. don’t you have more faith in human ingenuity than that? you really think we’d end up with a field of heavily compromised machines, engineered around a central overwhelming performance feature? i have to believe most people with the coin and determination to get into this kind of series would have a balanced machine. at least by the end of a season.
Sean – i must concede, FULLY unlimited doesn’t work in my opinion. but only a singular non-safety rule is needed. power/weight ratio division. keeps the laptimes and the racing relatively close. great idea.
it seems this site has an embarrassment of riches when it comes to clever engineering solutions and technical knowledge. if only we had some funding. . . anyone know how to start a racing league? :o)
jarred says
To coin a phrase, “And now for something completely different!”
Has anyone considered the possibility of open road racing?
http://www.openroadracing.com/
Or
http://www.texasinterceptors.com/open_road_racing.htm
These races are a 80-130 mile highway course not some perfectly maintained track. Let’s get these bikes out on the open road and see what they’ll really do. There may be some safety rules like wear a helmet, racing suit, and have brakes but thats about it. The best part about these races is they are a “Run what ya Brung” type atmosphere. Lets see what that V-8 powered Boss Hoss will do, or wanna put a supercharger on your cub 50? Why not? Here’s the place to test it out. Get out on the open road and Haul @$$! That sounds like a race. The real prize? Bragging rights. Who knows if you make a great modification to your bike and it works, someone may want to buy it. At least you’ll have proof it’ll work on the average guys bike. Any thoughts?
tim says
I think I’m with the “you need rules in order for it to work properly and safely” camp. Particularly you people in the USA, land of the “no win no fee” lawsuit. 🙂
I know I have seen a power to weight ratio class somewhere (so that is done: I think even in the US?).
What about something like “anything you like so long as it is internal combustion, and has one cylinder”? I’m thinking Supermono or even 450 single style. Could be fun (plus I want to build one!)
ROHORN says
The 450 rules are really pathetic, in my opinion.
Supermono (depending on which country) has the same stupid streamlining rules the FIM mandated about 50 years ago. Why increased performance with less energy is a bad idea is beyond me. The safety excuse is BS.
GAT says
Rules are put in place to allow a weaker category compete. You know this because in your own “No Rules” idea, you have a rule requiring two wheels.
I am looking forward to next years AMA deal. I want to see close racing between riders, on relatively fast bikes. I don’t remember the race, but there was a World Supersport race earlier this year, that had close to 10 guys cross the finish line in less than 3 seconds. That was fun to watch!
Or we could keep it the way it is with Suzuki winning Superbike, Honda generally winning Formula Extreme, and Yamaha doing the same in Supersport. If Kawasaki was doing well in Superstock, I would believe the manufacturers got together and divided up the series…
Derek says
ok, so a road course with turbos and nitrous is stupid. but what if you put turbo Busa’s on a nascar oval? top speeds and minimal cornering.
Kim Scholer says
Not a bad idea, really. It would improve competition and let the teams who could afford the hot stuff to really push the envelope.
Now if they would do something similar for the olympics, we could have one set of games that were ‘clean’, and another that were essentially a tribute to the pharmaceutical industry. Just imagine the kind of competition and the kind of records that could be set (never mind if the runners explode right on the finishing line, just like a dragster engine ideally should do)….
Vic says
No rules racing hahahaha. Any number of wheels you want? Oh hang on – maybe we need some rules.
I’m interested in the 450 super singles – would love to see them racing them on city street courses.
Busa’s on a nascar oval? Hell yeah.
Hillclimbing yup!
Racing through the LA storm drain system on dirt trackers. Why not.
Maybe its not the variety of machinery which is the problem – its the track or concept of a track.
Matus1976 says
Well said, rules have done nothing but stifle innovation. Races originated as mechanisms to experiment and innovate, the more rules applied to a race, the less room there is to try new things.
fireninja says
This could be interesting if you are willing to rethink what a race series is supposed to be.
You need to run the whole ting like reality TV. First episode would be qualifiers where we meet the hopeful teams and see who can put in the performance benchmarks to allow them to participate in the race. From then on, you have camera people with each team, during the prep and testing process. Do this for a couple months to get a feeling for the personalities involved and the characters of the teams, and climax on race day with full coverage of the event.
To lure in the right folks you offer a substantial prize, but one which would by it nature limit the amount of rational capitol investment — say $10 million. The race would be run in varied terrain — not a track but over a road course with twisties, straightaways, and hills. Perhaps down a highway on the West Coast of the USA or laterally across South America. You would have to do it head to head for the drama.
Allow anything with 1-5 wheels and a breaking system to play. The only restriction is that is must be substantially modified from stock configuration by the team fielding it. Want to enter your pulsejet reverse tricycle –go for it! Want to see what your modded Porsche can really do? How about your turbocharged Busa? Anything is game.
This would be entertaining. So what that there would be a 50% DNF rate, and some entries would significantly outclass others. Encourage safety, but enter into this knowing that this is a dangerous game, and there are risks involved. A couple rules like “no engaging in activity which physically harms a competetors vehicle. Any vehicle, team or jockey who does so will be disqualified.”
This would mint a whole new crop of instant celebrities. And make racing interesting again.
Just my 2 cents