Last summer we reported the NHTSA planned to decide by this year whether to mandate anti lock brakes on new motorcycles. Late last week, the IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) issued a new call for the ABS systems on motorcycles citing a one third reduction in crashes when comparing similar motorcycles with and without ABS.
Institute researchers compared the fatal crash experience of antilock-equipped motorcycles against their nonantilock counterparts during 2003-08. The main finding is that motorcycles with antilocks versus without are 37 percent less likely to be in fatal crashes per 10,000 registered vehicle years. Bolstering this finding is a separate analysis by the Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI), an affiliate of the Insurance Institute. HLDI analyzed insurance claims filed for crash damage to motorcycles. Bike models with antilocks have 22 percent fewer claims for crash damage per insured vehicle year (a vehicle year is 1 vehicle insured for 1 year, 2 insured for 6 months, etc.) than the same models without antilocks. The results update earlier studies by the Institute and HLDI published in 2008.
This issue, like many similar safety related issues, will be and has been debated endlessly with both sides seldom changing their positions, safety advocates in the government and insurance industries will, in almost every case, call for the additional systems, while motorcycle riders would prefer to have a choice.
Adrian Lund, president of the insurance industry funded institute, states the mandate is necessary because manufacturers are reluctant to make ABS standard. What that sounds like he’s saying is companies must do what the IIHS says or they should be forced to do what the IIHS says. Don’t you think the people who make and buy motorcycles should have a say in the matter?
Link: IIHS press release
Link: New York Times
Matt S. says
The IHS is starting to sound like Obama,you will buy my health care or be fined.It seems like freedoms and civil liberties are becoming a thing of the past.I do not mean this to sound like a politcal rant,I am actually rather apolitical, but forcing stupid laws and regulations upon the public for there own “SAFETY”or there own”GOOD” makes me furious! It makes it seem like the government doesn’t think that we are capable of making our own decisions.Ok, I am done!
Tin Man 2 says
The good news is, broad use of antilock systems will bring the cost down. The bad news is that there will be an added cost of some sort. Hopefully there will be a disable switch for those times and styles of riding that anti lock hurts, like dirt riding an adventure rig. I myself have been starteled into locking the rear wheel when a Cell phone Mom pulled out of a street into my lane. Darn near a high side when I got off the brake, Yes i use both brakes, but I used a bit much and it almost bit me.
Zak says
Motorcycles are dangerous… just ban them altogether… problem solved 😛
Phoebe says
“Don’t you think the people who make and buy motorcycles should have a say in the matter?”
We don’t have much of a say when it comes to the standard safety equipment in cars either, so why should motorcycles be any different? I’m not saying it’s a good thing, by the way.
That said, for most riders, ABS is probably a good idea. However, some people won’t want it, and I can understand that point of view too. Making ABS a free option is always an alternative, but I doubt we would see that.
spartandude says
I guess that means I should buy my Ural before this goes through. Hmm…
PaulN says
I would like to see ABS on motorcycles. I never think about it on my car…until I need them. Then I’m always thankful. Of course there would be an additional cost, but there will also be a large supply of used bikes available that have no ABS.
Eventually this arguement will likely go the away as the technology becomes more common. I’m shocked that some new bikes still have carbs. Fuel injection is standard on everything else on the road. Carbs belong in lawn mowers and go carts, not motorcycles.
Azzy says
I say let the consumer have the choice. Just like you have the choice to ride with or without a helmet in my state, you should have a choice in the features of your motorcycle. it only effects your safety and costs of insurance, unless this becomes a matter of saying it impacts on health and the feds get their grubby hands on the regulation of transportation means.
kneeslider says
@PaulN : “I would like to see ABS on motorcycles.”
ABS already is on motorcycles, you can buy one with the system in place if you wish. You are among the group that would choose to have it, others might choose otherwise. The problem isn’t with ABS availability, it’s about ABS being mandatory.
Tin Man 2 says
Mr Slider, I beg to differ, ABS is only on high end bikes, or an expensive option on medium priced bikes. The Tech would cost much less if all bikes were mandated to have it from the factory. No longer would the factory be able to charge $1200 for an ABS package that might cost them $35 to include… The arguement is moot anyway, you know its coming, lets just hope Airbags arent next.
nortley says
While technology, like ABS, certainly is a help in applicable situations, all the safety gadgets in the world won’t protect people from incompetent, careless, or just plain bad drivers or riders. If the IIHS were more serious about highway safety and less focused on enrichening insurance companies and equipment suppliers, they would push for operator licensing and vehicle inspection laws that would keep most of these menaces off the road.
Chris says
The single quote from the first study isn’t too revealing, but it makes me wonder about some of the potential flaws. (The HLDI study partially answers the first issue I raise.)
What is the demographic profile of riders of ABS-equipped bikes? Currently, ABS is a fairly expensive option available on largely higher-end motorcycles. In other words, not the sort of thing your typical squid would be buying, so perhaps squids are skewing the data and making non-ABS bikes look “more dangerous”, even if they aren’t when ridden by the same people. This needs to be broken down model-by-model with comparisons only being applied within a single model where ABS is available as an option, or at least needs to be broken into objectively definable market segments for comparison. What they’ve said doesn’t mean a whole lot.
What sort of accidents are ABS-equipped bikes *not* having that non-ABS equipped bikes are having? Are these sort of accidents skewing the data one way or another?
Just something to think about. Personally, I’m not sure there’s much point in *requiring* ABS but I do like Tin Man’s point that mandatory ABS will reduce the cost and weight penalties currently associated with it.
cl
taxman says
yes there are some bike with ABS available, but from my shopping experience not enough. i’d like to see many more with ABS. making them mandatory would increase production, thus reducing the cost. motorcycle manufacturers would probably pass on some expense to us but i think they would end up eating most of it to stay competitive in the market. and if it helps save lives all the better. people would still have the choice. if they don’t want ABS they can just buy some aftermarket “for race use only” breaks just like they do other parts.
in the end i think it would be a very small minority of riders that would notice a negative difference in their ride experience worthy enough of a complaint.
yes riders should be given choices. but i think that argument is more suited to personal comfort issues and things that influence your “ride/drive experience” like helmets and seatbelts. many states mandate helmets, and most mandate seatbelts. but these are things that primarily only endanger yourself and if a person is willing to give up their own personal safety for a different experience then they should be allowed to. where-as vehicle production specifications also go to protect passengers of your vehicle and people in other vehicles that you share the road with. if a car company made a car with a bumper held on by twist ties we’d be endangered just riding behind it. thus legislation to guide safety standards. i think ABS falls within this realm.
all just my personal feelings of course. your mileage may vary.
Wuwei says
While I have not experienced ABS on a bike, I have numerous times driving cars and the experience has not always been pleasant. There are times when you just don’t get any braking and you need it. I find them very disconcerting at times in the winter because I am used to reacting one way while the ABS sometimes decides it is going to do something else. Overall I probably would like to have ABS on a bike, but I wouldn’t want it for $1000 more, which is currently the case.
Simon says
ABS is the way forward, and not a bad one. Honda is starting to offer it on sportsbikes, which I think is fantastic. BMW offers it on the S1000RR, and journalist like it.
Also on the expenses argument, Suzuki offers it on it’s entry-level Gladius and Bandit, Kawasaki offers it on everything but the supersports/superbikes, so it is getting to be more affordable.
Jimmy says
I am so sick of this crap!! ABS is great when everything is new and working properly. put some miles on the system and it starts to screw up. this is not a statement I make lightly, I have over 3.5 million safe miles in the past 30 years! and thats just my at work mileage. I have had ABS on several new vehicles that quit working always at the wrong time. My point is you can’t rely on it to be there when you need it. further I have proven my point many times that a well trained competent driver or rider can stop as well or better than any ABS system. Many of you will say now that the tests prove that wrong, The tests use professional riders in a controlled enviroment that know how to use these systems not your average rider. I WILL not buy any motorcycle that forces me to buy technology that I don’t want and don’t need. I am sick of paying to compensate for incompetent individual’s that don’t care to learn to operate their vehicle’s in a safe and proper fashion. That is all this is , government and insurance company’s trying to force all to pay for the few. If you think I am out in left field the next time you get the oportunity to argue seat belt safty, ask where are the rest of the statistic’s? IE how many were killed while wearing their seat belts and how many walked away while not wearing their’s, sorry that info’s not available!!
Bob says
I think ABS is the future, but not now. They need to be more reliable and tough for bike use. There are bikes that a failure in the ABS system mean no brakes at all. I know that can can happen with regular brakes, but they have been very reliable for many years.
The insurance companies would love to see ABS be mandatory because if it works it will probably help in many cases, but if it doesn’t and there is a failure, the insurance companies have a deep pocket (the manufacturer) to get into. Manufacturers know this so ABS systems will have to carry a premium price to cover their potential losses. If insurance companies want ABS, they should offer discounts like they did for cars. Of course they will raise the non-ABS rates a little bit on everyone else.
Simon says
“If you think I am out in left field the next time you get the oportunity to argue seat belt safty, ask where are the rest of the statistic’s? IE how many were killed while wearing their seat belts and how many walked away while not wearing their’s, sorry that info’s not available!!”
How the hell do you dare make that arguement? Are you just ignorant? Have you ever had a car crash without wearing a seatbelt? There are many things you WILL smack your head against in a car!
Maybe you should watch a couple of racecar crashes where the driver walked away, and then say again that seatbelts haven’t saved the lives!
FREEMAN says
How about they mandate a roll cage, airbags, and a back-up camera, too?
Mule says
I’ve never ridden a bike with anti-lock brakes and I don’t know if many others have either. But I’ve done several panic stops in cars, trucks and vans so equiped and I’ve always felt I was never gonna stop in time and would have preferred to have been the guy in charge of the deceleration rates. The pedal turns to mush and it gives the illusion of accelerating into your target.
If thats what it feels like on a bike I’d be cleanin’ my shorts all the time. We should just offload all our leisure activities to China and live in Insurance protected bublets.
Simon says
Maybe you shouldn’t have stomped the brake-pedal to the floor, but braked like you would have on a bike, load it until the point the brakes almost lock up.
I mean on a bike you can do that in case of an emergency, aren’t you?
jim says
I’ll just wait for my plastic bubble, that way nothing can harm me…
powermatic says
Without any details on how the IIHS survey was conducted, there’s no way of knowing the legitimacy of the stated results. The IIHS, in the press release, claims that they “….compared the fatal crash experience of antilock-equipped motorcycles against their nonantilock counterparts…”, but what, exactly, did that entail? Did they compare ABS bikes to ‘all’ non-ABS equipped bikes, to non-ABS bikes of the same type and size, or to the exact same model of motorcycle where ABS is an option? Frankly, in all three scenarios I see a huge problem with the small sampling rates available due to the very low percentage of ABS-equipped bikes relative to the motorcycle population as a whole. Let’s face it-since this ‘survey’ was financed by an organization that was no doubt predisposed to come to a single conclusion, there was very little suspense in the outcome.
I’d reckon that 90% of the time the advantages of ABS can be replicated on a modern motorcycle if the rider occasionally spends some time on a deserted road practicing hard stops, developing the muscle memory that will allow him to do the same in an emergency. Saying that, I’ve put many, many thousands of miles on ABS equipped BMWs, and though I’ve rarely had it come in to play (never?) I’m glad it’s there for that other 10% of the time. Still, this seems like an area where, just as in cars, the market will, and should, dictate it’s availability on a particular bike and to a particular consumer.
Schneegz says
As a general rule, I don’t like mandated safety features. I ALWAYS wear a helmet, safety gear, and plan to buy a bike with ABS, but I don’t want the government telling me to do those things. If a person wants to play Russian Roulette with their safety, they should be allowed to do so. After all, one could argue that ALL OF US who ride motorcycles are playing Russian Roulette with our safety.
If we allow government bureaucrats to dictate our safety equipment to us, eventually they’ll decide that motorcycles are too risky, and they’ll either make them illegal, or dumb them down to the point none of us want to ride anymore. And, let’s face it, there aren’t enough of us to stop them from doing that once they’re on that path.
Thure says
I think it would be reasonable to require ABS to be offered as an option on all mass produced motorcycles sold. The exception would have to be the bikes that are sold with cable or rod actuated brakes.
todd says
Yes, it is a slippery slope. where will it end. It makes no sense to me to regulate a safety feature on something that is used because of its inherent danger. I think the fall of the Roman Empire was when they started making all the gladiators wear protective equipment. Pretty soon it will be illegal for you to do anything that a lobbyist finds dangerous.
What does this do to the little guys? Will Mule need to add ABS on his bikes? How much will that cost him to develop or will he be up shite creek?
I guess this will just force companies to farm-out the engineering to India and the manufacturing to China to reduce costs.
-todd
Walt says
The radical freedom agenda can be costly:
I am free so I don’t buy health insurance
I am free so I don’t wear a seat belt
I am free so I don’t wear a helmet
I am free so I ride a bike without ABS
Oops, I just punched my bike into the side of a delivery van. Now I am severely injured. I can’t work.
I am free to demand that society provide me Social Security Disability payments.
Ain’t freedom great?
Just don’t ask me for help, brother. I am free to say no.
ATGATT
Judy LaParne says
I realize what they are trying to do however, I think the bigger picture is the rider. You can put all the breaking in possition you want. A rider that isnt paying attention, is riding out of their league, riding fatigued, or any other less than safe riding scenarios and you will have accidents.
I dont know what the answer is. I know that at my age of 55, I am looking for alternative motorcycles to accomodate my skill levels which has changed over the years. I want to ride the big bikes and take long rides. Muscling a bike is harder work now than it was when I was younger. Yet, I want the lean and thrill of the ride. My answer may well be found in the bike that Im going to test ride in a couple weeks engineered and built by Tilting Motor Works at http://tiltingmotorworks.com/ .
So, although I tip my hat to anyone who wants we riders to be safer, I cant help but think that the rider is going to have to be the place to start… and finish. FYI.. yesterday I had my first experience with a fellow biker pulling out in front of me on the road. You cant change “stupid”!! No matter what kind of safety equipment you make manditory.
Domino Dave says
Educate ……. Not Legislate
Nicolas says
Statistics can be used to say anything and it’s contrary. As mentioned above, guys who ride expensive beamers fitted with ABS are probably safer riders than the squids on non-ABS supersports. Wealthier, older, wiser, more experienced, less testosterone would rather explain the difference in the results, imho.
So, the stat should say that gray-hair riders have 20% less chance of fatal crashes than non-gray-hair riders, therefore we should all color our hair gray. Amen.
pabsyboots says
more government overeach the conclusion is ultimately to ban bikes !
abs bikes skew more expensive with older more conservative buyers, ie safer
aka flawed study by non biker bureaucrats
i like the new bmw with anti lock and traction however i want it to be my choice not mandated
rashomon says
The EU has effectively mandated anti-lock brakes for motorcycles via an agreement reached with the European motorcycle manufacturers association, and by 2014 essentially everything sold in Europe will come with anti-lock brakes. The U.S. DOT has been investigating this for a few years now, and may eventually follow the EU in this. In any case, costs for the anti-lock hardware are coming down somewhat as the manufacturing scale goes up, and it’s not unreasonable to think the consumer cost premium to drop to $600-$700 on the retail price by 2014, from the current $1000 plus. There no doubt that anti-lock brakes will do at least a little to reduce accident rates, but they’re unlikely to have a dramatic effect — studies such as the one the IIHS have performed often suffer from a lot of selection bias: those riders who are willing to pay for anti-lock brakes may be safer by nature than those who have elected not to have them.
John M. says
Further analysis of the stats usually reveals that most accidents are novice or returning riders. Proper training cannot be replaced with electronics. Require training and tiered licensing where you have to prove you can ride. I bet your stats will change more than they would with ABS.
Jimmy says
Hey Simon? I guess you have never looked at a racecar up close. they have 5 point safty belts that are bolted in place, not an an inertia wheel that lets you get momentum before it breaks you sturnum. I have seen people cut in half by their seat belts because of the way their car was hit and its construction didn’t provide the saftey nessesary to protect them. You missed the point entirely Simon, the stats that get rolled out to support this kind of BS are always scewed to satisfy who-ever wants to get their way. If you are so interested in seatbelt saftey look at the stats, they only show how many people died as a result of no belt and how many lived because of the belt, not the whole storey. And to answer your question yes I have been in an accident, probably more violent than you could ever imagine. I had an equipment failure in my tractor trailer unit. A brand new front leaf spring broke completely in half ,ahead of the axle. This caused the truck to run of the road and roll over on its left side. All this at about 65 mph. If you think thats a joy ride you better think again. I did not have a seat belt on, and I walked away, the sheriff asked if I was wearing my belt and I told him no,he said good thing it looks like if you had you would probably be in the morgue.
Jimmy says
Hey everbody I have a super idea. If the iihs wants ABS on bikes so bad let them pay for them. The manufacturers could poll us, the buyers/riders we could tell them provide a means of turning the ABS off at will and no increase in price of the unit AKA the iihs pays for any increase and OK go for it. Thats the only way you will ever get me to buy a motorcycle with ABS. As it stands now I have already passed on some sweet deals because of ABS.
PeteP says
If they mandate ABS, it will mean the end of small bikes, dual-sport bikes, and most scooters. My guess is, the IIHS would be just fine with that.
I have never had an ABS equipped bike in 42 years of riding and racing. I don’t want one. This is stupid.
Tin Man 2 says
Did you guys miss the point? The actaul cost of ABS on a bike is most likely under $100 not the $1000 the company charges for the option. By mandating ABS (with a cut out switch) the cost will be forced down. If you dont think ABS will save your Bacon in the rain, or a Diesel spill, your just being a victom of wishfull thinking.
PeteP says
OK, then the mandate should specify that ABS cannot cost the consumer more than $100. If it does, the the difference should come from insurance industry profits.
Still DO NOT WANT.
WRXr says
Don’t know what the uproar is about. I have ridden bikes with and without ABS. ABS is better. End of story.
So it costs a bit more. Big deal.
People are laying down a lot of money for what is essentially a leisure item, but they want to save money in the oddest places. The brakes should not be one of them.
powermatic says
Wow. Had no idea that anyone was actually still arguing the ‘its better to be thrown clear’ side of the seat belt “issue”. I’ll admit that the ‘cut in half by a seat belt’ is a new wrinkle to the argument that I’d not previously heard-not that it hasn’t happened, just not on Planet Earth. Amazing stuff, and were I of the anti-ABS contingent I might be changing my tune just to distance myself from this expert opinion.
Please, however, don’t interpret this as a plea to stop with your posts ‘Jimmy’-far too entertaining. Thanks for the laugh.
smithmotorwheel says
Even if it were a free option, I’d pass on the ABS. Unless you’ve got a huge gyroscope on your bike, ABS isn’t going to save your life if you decide to speed through the rain, diesel oil, cheese whiz, or anything else that keeps your tires from getting traction. For all those who disagree: I flipped my CB550 end-over-end after riding through an oil spill when I was 16 and traveling less than 20mph, never touching the brakes. Motorcycles appeal to me because of their relative simplicity. ABS adds another level of complexity and cost that for me, isn’t worth it. Because we all know that electronics NEVER fail, right? Would anyone be ready for that panic stop when, after you’ve become accustomed to riding with ABS, they suddenly don’t work?
If you want ABS, then by all means, buy it. It’ll take more than an insurance institute and some of their skewed stats to convince me that I can’t ride safely without it.
I agree with Domino Dave, “Educate ……. Not Legislate”. Motorcycles are machines and to operate a machine you need training. If you don’t have the proper training, then you are liable to get hurt.
FREEMAN says
@ WRXr:
The point is ABS is not necessary for everyone or for every motorcycle. Be realistic. Does every motorcyclist ride in the rain or in conditions requiring a feature such as ABS? I would venture to guess that the majority of all motorcyclists out there only ride on “sun”-days.
dave432 says
Insurance companies need to take a different approach to insuring. If you choose not to wear a seatbelt and you get in an at-fault collision, they don’t pay. You choose to ride without a helmet and get in an at-fault collision, they don’t pay. And more importantly my insurance doesn’t go up because of your choice. You roll the dice, you pay the price.
Zippy says
Da gubmint should outlaw leaving you house acuse it might be dangerous and I am a scared. Den they should come and hold my wee wee when I pee pee acuase I might get a hurt. I nedd da gubmint to a do this for me please acuase I am a scared.
baconpocket says
the price of lcd tv’s went down without the government mandating that every house have one. it’s a good technology and prices will go down over time.
the iihs should give a 1/3 discount to insure bikes with ABS if they are so sure it will reduce the accident rate
andy s. says
bikes with abs being in 37% fewer fatal accidents couldnt have anything to do with the fact that the riders who buy those bikes (bmw’s and the like) are much more experienced and not nearly as interested in extreme performance as younger sportbike riders are, could it? Yet another exmple of our government not looking at the big picture….
Anon says
If the EU is mandating ABS, we in America will be getting it as well. The EU is the second-biggest market for the big three and they aren’t going to spend millions on America-only versions of the same bikes.
I’m not too concerned, just as with topspeed limits (again forced by the EU) or ABS systems on most cars, they are very easy to circumvent with a minimum of time/money.
And, as with topspeed limits, the vast majority of riders will have no need to remove them except to feel tough.
steve says
The statistic is flawed. Think about this the 2010 Harley dyna wide glide is 96ci weighs 647lb dry and has one disc front brake. Any one see a problem with this?? how about dual front disc? That might help you stop faster and avoid problems. But i do believe if you have more riders then you will have more deaths. And whats not factored in is texting has not been as big years ago and now we are hearing about all these texing accidents. its just politics at work.
Thom says
I think a lot of you are missing another point- motorcycles are getting too expensive for the average guy to afford as it is. (As an example, look at the cost of a Suzuki GS500 today versus 10 years ago. It has nearly doubled.) If ABS is mandated for every motorcycle, the manufacturers WILL NOT make it any more affordable, they’ll just raise prices across the board, and everyone will suffer for it. Motorcycles are appealing for their simplicity, and adding more electronic doo-dads only makes them more expensive, complicated, and heavy. Exactly what you don’t want if you want to sell bikes. Also, I realize I am a member of a small minority, but I don’t want anything on my cars or bikes that are not absolutely necessary to make it work. I HATE ABS, airbags, power windows and locks, cruise control, stability control, traction control, etc etc etc. (I realize a lot of these things are automobile-related only, but its about the point not the specifics.) I like simplicity, because it means I am more able to maintain and repair my vehicles myself, as opposed to paying someone else to do it. Much like I want to do my own repairs, I want to do my own driving/riding. I don’t want a computer doing it for me.
Scotduke says
I think the report may contain flaws that will appear on closer examination. The way it is worded makes me believe this to be the case. At the moment ABS is only fitted to more expensive bikes and it is costly. On cars it adds little to the overall price and is now accepted but bikes have separate braking systems and need more sophisticated (and costly) ABS technology as a result. It’s true that safety features such as seatbelts save lives – here in the UK we have crash data that suggests around 300 people of the 2,200/year killed on our roads would have lived had they worn a seatbelt. Would ABS save similar proportions of bikers? I’m sceptical, simply because so many motorcycle accidents are caused by other road users (in Europe the figure is around 65%) and in so many instances there is no time to brake, whether the bike is fitted with ABS or not.
Simon says
So Jimmy, the fact that the death rate has plummeted since seatbelts have become mandatory (in the Netherlands, where I live), is just statistics set to ones hand, but in the real world a lot of people are actually torn in half?
In most circumstances it’s so much safer to wear a seatbelt, and yes, racecars do have 5 point-harnesses, instead of 3 point inertia-reel belts. I just made an extreme point, as opposed to yours.
Seatbelts have saved me from bumping the dashboard/windshield, so I still have my pretty face. I’m happy for you that you could step out of an accident unscathed, but you could me an exception, couldn’t you?
Zippy says
Do we need to give the government more and more control over our lives everyday? This is nothing but incremental socialism. I build my own bikes and ride to get away from rules (as much as that is possible).
I do not need anyone to make my personal safety decisions for me.
shaas says
I did not read all the comments, so if this has been noted, sorry
In my opinion the statistics are flawed. The great majority of bikes out there with ABS belong to (generally) seasoned riders. BMW, Gold Wing, etc. These guys already have a much lower accident rate and I would argue , not entirely as a result of ABS. It costs less for me to insure my BMW with full coverage than it does for liability only on my 77 Yamaha XS650.
Insurance is fraudulent. The operator should be insured not the motorcycle or car. (but what would that do to profits?)
Foob says
You should be allowed to choose whether you want ABS or not … as long as no one else has to pay for your decision.
Non-ABS riders should be paying 22% more for the collision portion of their insurance along with the corresponding increase for medical coverage.
PaulN says
Motorcyclists, myself included, are a funny lot, aren’t we? A lot of us prefer to think of ourselves as different and independent. For the most part I agree, but I also know that my mother-in-law’s 2000 Corolla is about the most basic modern car that I’ve driven, and even it has power windows, airbags, and ABS. I’ve also been in situations where I know ABS has kept me on the road and out of someone else’s trunk.
I would personally like to see ABS available on more street bikes, and not have it be a luxury item. ABS and airbags used to be options on cars, now they are the norm. The same will hold true for street bikes in the near future. And don’t talk to me about training and practice. A panic stop is a panic stop whether I’ve prepared for it or not. If a little technology can keep me from high siding into a Buick then I’m for it.
Simon says
My last contribution on this topic. The Study compares the same bikes with and without ABS, eg Goldwing v Goldwing ABS. So it’s quite a fair study. It’s not Fireblade v Goldwing.
Fred M. says
Let’s stop with the extremist rhetoric: Safety regulations and vehicle standards do not constitute “socialism.” Requirements that production bikes have front brakes, horns, headlights, brake lights, turn signals, and mirrors are not evidence that Karl Marx’s followers have won. And neither would be a requirement for ABS brakes.
The public roads are a shared resource. If you crash your bike and police shut down lanes, or the road, that impancts (no pun intended) everyone. In crowded metropolitan areas, it almost invariably leads to others being rear-ended in the backup. If a motorcyclist locks up the front wheel and hits a car, pedestrian, bicyclist, or child, the motorcyclist is not the only victim in the accident — regardless of who is at fault.
Given the rave reviews of modern sport bike ABS (and traction control systems), it’s obvious that the technology works well and is not intrusive — even highly skilled riders. But it’s not going to become affordable when it’s an extra-cost factory option. The proposed legislation could turn the $1000 ABS option into maybe $50 to $100 of extra cost on a new motorcycle.
baconpocket says
fred. m. your arguments are very good except for one. “The proposed legislation could turn the $1000 ABS option into maybe $50 to $100 of extra cost on a new motorcycle.”
what makes you so sure that this A. will happen, and B. is the only way to get it cheaply on more bikes?
sure there is some extremist rhetoric being tossed around, but I think the major point is that legislation is superfluous to this technology becoming commonplace. not to mention that the statistics are highly questionable.
L.K. says
Lets just assume the following is true (most probably they are):
1) Seatbelts save lives
2) ABS saves lives
Can we not also assume following is also true? (most probably they are):
1) Not driving saves lives.
2) Not riding motorcycles saves lives.
Where’s the line?
For the record, I always wear a seatbelt, always wear a CE padded jacket and a helmet, and hate ABS on my cars. That’s my choice. And I already have a mother, thanks. The point is I can choose the line that is acceptable to me and I can choose to mitigate my risk vis-a-vis activities via either safety equipment or insurance that is priced to take into account the level of risk I’m willing to expose myself to. My newer car (with ABS and two airbags) has a lower insurance rate than my older car (with only one airbag and no ABS). The validity of the study has no bearing at all on my attitude toward a law that requires ABS on all bikes.
Also, as soon as ABS is mandated, a bunch of smaller builders etc. will be done – the reason small custom builders can flourish is because of the simplicity and lack of regulation associated with building bikes. Good bye segment of the economy…
If the insurance industry is so convinced that ABS saves lives, offer a discount to riders with ABS equipped bikes (or raise the rates for those that don’t have ABS, whatever), or are they afraid the free market won’t support that?
Finally, what do you care if someone kills themselves because of their own informed decisions? Plenty of people do risky things – should all risky things be outlawed, or heavily regulated?
Really I’m surprised all bikes haven’t been outlawed yet, since all the bureaucrats care so darn much about keeping me alive.
todd says
So the government will be deciding that 10,000 fatalities is not acceptable but 6,300 fatalities is. Isn’t this much like Ford or Toyota deciding that a certain number of fatalities is acceptable? Is there goal to reduce deaths to an acceptable level? How many deaths per 10,000 registered vehicle years is acceptable to them?
Since they know the causes of death why not just remove them entirely? – unless it’s OK for a certain number of people to die.
-todd
Fred M. says
Todd wrote: “Since they know the causes of death why not just remove them entirely? – unless it’s OK for a certain number of people to die.”
It’s not “okay,” but society has to balance the costs versus lives saved. The slippery slope thing is just a logical fallacy.
baconpocket wrote: ” fred. m. your arguments are very good except for one. “The proposed legislation could turn the $1000 ABS option into maybe $50 to $100 of extra cost on a new motorcycle.â€
what makes you so sure that this A. will happen, and B. is the only way to get it cheaply on more bikes?”
A. Historical evidence and knowledge of marketing and engineering. Whenever technical items have been mandated before, the cost miraculously plummeted, whether it was airbags, catalytic converters, or GFCI outlets. It happens for several reasons, including economies of scale, engineering efforts to reduce costs, and the costs that the market will bear. Some guy buying an $18K BMW might be fine with paying a grand for ABS. But Honda knows that they won’t be able to increase the cost of a 750cc cruiser by a grand. If they have to include ABS on every bike, you can bet that they will spend whatever it takes to keep the final costs to the consumer down. And the sales volumes will make it worthwhile for Nissan, Brembo, and others to engineer low-cost, high-volume ABS systems for purchase by the motorcycle manufacturers.
B. I’m sure it’s the only way because it’s a mature technology and the demand for it isn’t high enough to drive costs down, either through volume of sales or by justifying cost-reduction efforts on the part of engineering. The motorcycling public rarely demands safety features. Ask the average 600cc sport bike rider if he’d rather pay $500 for ABS or spend the same money on a new exhaust pipe. You guess which he chooses.
John S says
If you drive on ice six months a year as we do in NH, you’ve learned that ABS is useless. You simply have no brakes at all. I constantly defeat ABS but dropping two or three gears and dumping the clutch. That will lock all four wheels and you actually have a bit of braking, even on glare ice. As for motorcycles, ABS is not a bad idea, but it won’t affect me. My three motorcycles are from the 1980s and they should last my remaining lifetime.
Fred M. says
John S wrote “If you drive on ice six months a year as we do in NH, you’ve learned that ABS is useless.”
Tests of ABS on ice don’t seem to bear out your observations:
http://www.veta.se/abs66ice.htm
I think that the Swedes have a bit of experience with snow and ice driving.
ROB says
Why not just give a large or larger discount on Insurance to the people that do have it, that $500 dollar option might not be so bad if you can recover it on your insurance bill.
That said, I don’t want it for myself. I would rather be in control of my bike than have it in control of me.
Zippy says
Wow, Fred good thing is was not your job to invent the motorcycle. We would all be driving minivans.
“I can’t put an engine in a bicycle, someone might get hurt. WHY WONT THE GOVERNMENT DO SOMETHING!!”
It is a really good thing it was not your job to storm the beaches of Normandy or we would all be driving VW minivans.
I suggest you hide in the corner (curled up in the fetal position) and shake in fear until someone from the Government comes to tell you in is OK to go outside. Take it easy though, Baby steps.
And since the government has done such a fine job regulating and running the economy, banking and the mortgage business. And buried us, our children and grand children with $14,000,000,000,000 in debt. Along with the great job securing our borders, they have plenty of free time to make our personal safety decision for us.
But seriously Fred, we need more laws, there not not enough laws. That will solve all our problems, more laws. Gotta have more laws.
Beautiful night, just got back from a long cool ride. My carbed, aircooled, home built bike (with a car tire on the rear OH THE HUMANITY!!!) is running great. Life is good. I just wish we had more laws, that would solve my problems.
Sean B says
I’m surprised to learn that ABS makes such a difference in fatalities. I’ve been trying to decide which of two bikes to sell – my BMW F800S with ABS, or my Ducati 900SS without. Because in all other regards, such as weight, power, and handling, they’re pretty similar bikes.
But dumping the Duc at the bottom of a freeway offramp at less than 10mph, because i got on the front brakes too hard, has helped me to make up my mind. And before anyone gets worried, the bike landed on my leg, which cushioned the fall, so the bike wasn’t harmed. 😉
I’ve decided that I won’t be buying any bikes that don’t have ABS in the future. And for those of you who prefer bikes without, i’ll shortly be putting a slightly scuffed but low-mileage 900SS (the 2002 model with Ohlins suspension!) on the market.
todd says
I think the government could save even more lives while saving money if they just made a cop sit in the passenger seat of every car and on the back of every bike. If that’s too inconvenient they can always put a GPS transponder in your vehicle that communicates, in real time, with the vehicles around you, the local weather conditions, the roads, pedestrians, and the highway patrol. All of those conditions can tell your vehicle the maximum speed to go (hooked directly up to the drive by wire throttle) and alert the authorities if you somehow manage to go over that speed or somewhere you’re not allowed. They can even put a camera in the vehicle to track your attention, alert you if you doze off, and be used in court as evidence in the rare case you are in an accident. Racetracks, of course, would have much higher speeds allowed, dictated by the track’s insurance company or whichever sponsor pays the most.
I guarantee this would be safe. Why on earth would anyone not want this?
Now that the NHTSA has published these statistics, can I sue the motorcycle manufactures if I get in an accident on a bike that does not have ABS? We’ve sued companies before for making these sort of judgments about costs vs potential lives saved.
-todd
Grant says
I can imagine circumstances where ABS on my motorcycle could save my life, so my motivation for wanting ABS would purely selfish. I cannot imagine that any other party to this discussion cares specifically about my life. To all others, the motive for ABS on my bike must be monetary; someone is either going to make money on the deal or they think they will keep from losing money by having ABS on my bike. Frankly, I am a conservative enough rider that those circumstances I can imagine are so highly unlikely to occur that the cost of ABS outweighs the benefits for me. As for the IIHS and government… my opinion about there motives is left as an exercise for the reader.
Jimmy says
Sean B you just answered the the ultimate quesion on this debate. You need ABS,as evidenced by you rookie manoover that put you down on you 900ss. You obviously don’t have the skills required to be riding such a machine, and selling it is probably in you best interest. Its people like you that need the ability to CHOOSE to have ABS on your machine to take care of you. The others that know how to take care of themselves shopuld also have the choise to say no thank-you. Simon if you really think that the statement’s I made about injuries from seat belts are ficticous, talk to some firemen or resque personell and enlighten yourself, believe me it is one of the worst things about being an over the road trucker when you are the first person on an accident and witness such needless tragity.
OMMAG says
Make it an option …. and let me choose whether to buy it or use it.
MY choice … not the insurance industry or the government bureaucrats.
Get your meddling noses out of my life.
tom says
“The problem is with being manditory.”
I’d love to hear some entertaining opinions on what should be manditory and what the purchaser/rider should get to choose:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/maninfo/mcpkg002.pdf
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?chunkKey=090163348008f2a0
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?chunkkey=090163348008f2a1
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=8d901e18b06ced7049e865853c19356c&rgn=div6&view=text&node=40:18.0.1.1.2.5&idno=40
The Producer says
Don’t you hate that there isn’t a spell checker on these blogs? I sure do and looking at Jimmy (No offense) we could all use one!
Pun aside, I just have a hard time with Government interferring with my life and that of others. Some would have free abortions handed to anyone who wants one but the same crowd will tell me I must wear a seat belt, helmet and now possibly have ABS brakes on any new bike oh and yes airbags etc. all to save my life. If life is important than make life important and don’t pretend to make it important for some people and others not important. I think its about Inurance industry in bed with the government trying to keep their costs down. Its not about keeping us safe or alive.
Yes political but when can we all just be responsible for our own actions and quit blaming and leveraging others money to pay for my mistakes and bad choices. I suspect many on here would opt for a helmet while some wouldn’t its their life not yours. If insurance company wishes to raise prices on those who choose to not to wear it then ok they can just like life insurance companies who charge more for smokers than non smokers. (Here we go insurance companies)
Bottom line – too many regs and not enough wisdom in this world of ours. Sad but things aren’t going to get any better soon.
The Producer
todd says
We make sure everyone lives longer and then we complain about population growth, rising unemployment levels, and over-crowded nursing homes with rising health care costs. Dying is good for the economy, let it continue to happen.
-todd
Jimmy says
“The producer” about spell check. my apologies for the mistakes I was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote that and didn’t proof read it. anyway spell check would be nice but then after all we are just a bunch of bikers complaining about things we really have no control over
Fred M. says
Zippy wrote:
“Wow, Fred good thing is was not your job to invent the motorcycle. We would all be driving minivans.”
If you invented the motorcycle, they would probably have ape-hanger bars, suicide shifters, and no front brakes. I’m the one riding the liquid-cooled, 146hp, fuel-injected, sport bike with zero torsional load brakes, fuel-in-frame, and mass centralization.
“I suggest you hide in the corner (curled up in the fetal position) and shake in fear until someone from the Government comes to tell you in is OK to go outside.”
It’s you cruiser people who ride around in the fetal position. Actually, it’s a cross between the fetal position and the gynecological exam position.
“My carbed, aircooled, home built bike (with a car tire on the rear OH THE HUMANITY!!!) is running great. Life is good. I just wish we had more laws, that would solve my problems.”
Laws won’t solve your problems, but they might protect someone else from your poor judgment.
Fred M. says
OMMAG wrote:
“Make it an option …. and let me choose whether to buy it or use it.
MY choice … not the insurance industry or the government bureaucrats.”
If the guy in the SUV behind you wants to text people on his cell phone and swill a bit of Jim Beam, that’s his choice. And why should the governement tell him that his SUV has to have front brakes? Make front brakes an option …. and let him choose whether to buy it or use it. If he thinks he can brake well enough with just rear brakes, then let him just get rear brakes. If he thinks he can handle his liquor, why should the government tell him otherwise?
Face it: The public roads are a shared resource. This proposed law has nothing to do with what you do on your own property or even a racetrack.
If you want to ride around with no helmet while wearing a tank-top, shorts, and flip-flops, I’m cool with that — as long as I don’t get stuck with the medical bill. But I expect the government to make you wear eye protection so that you don’t kill someone else because you were temporarily blinded by sand, bugs, gravel or other times hitting your eyeballs. I don’t expect the government to try to protect you from yourself.
Fred M. says
ROB wrote:
“Why not just give a large or larger discount on Insurance to the people that do have it, that $500 dollar option might not be so bad if you can recover it on your insurance bill.”
Because it’s not likely that they could offset the cost of something that is now a boutique option. Make it mandatory on all new bikes, and the price will plummet.
“That said, I don’t want it for myself. I would rather be in control of my bike than have it in control of me.”
If the ABS kicked in, you weren’t in control of your bike.
The problem is that almost everyone considers themselves to be a better than average rider (simple math disproves that). They don’t think that they need ABS. And many of them will will have crashes that ABS would have prevented. After you f*** up a panic stop and hit some kid, it’s a bit late to sheepishly admit that you probably should have coughed up the extra dough for ABS — or chosen a different bike that offered it.
kneeslider says
Fred M, If some accidents are determined to be caused by a loss of control at high speed, should electronic speed limiters that keep a vehicle from exceeding, perhaps, 70 mph, become mandatory because some with less skill cannot react quickly enough to keep themselves out of trouble? How about a collision avoidance system that applies the brakes because it determines you are about to hit something? This technology is already available and would be in the same category as ABS in your scenarios above. How much technology “for the common good” is enough and how much is too much?
If the rationale for making something mandatory for everyone is that it might reduce one individual’s chances of hurting someone else, there is no limit to what can be justified and there are far too many who enjoy having the authority to force others to do what they think best.
todd says
From what I understand, having front brakes on a vehicle is not required by law. This is something manufacturers put in place because they offer the most braking power for the lowest cost. If a manufacturer came up with a more affective means of stopping a vehicle without using front brakes (ion pulse discharge maybe?) it would be perfectly legal for them to omit the typical front brakes. You are still legally free to choose a car without front brakes but market forces have kept manufacturers from offering any.
Also, it is not illegal to drink Jim Beam until the cows come home before you drive away in your SUV. It IS illegal to have a blood alcohol content of .08% while driving. If, by some sort of clinical condition, your body does not absorb alcohol into your bloodstream you could never be charged with driving under the influence. You are still legally free to drink all the alcohol you want before you drive as long as your BAC is less than .08%. Now having an “open container” with you is illegal but the law should be revised to only affect those without this condition.
Laws are vague and full of problems. If you were born with a scull harder than steel and a sub-cranial brain “cushion” you would still be required to wear a helmet in states with such laws. In that case you would be guilty until you could prove your innocence by submitting your head to a standard DOT helmet impact test – at your own expense. At which point they would require you to tattoo the back of your head with “DOT”.
-todd
Fred M. says
kneeslider wrote: “Fred M, If some accidents are determined to be caused by a loss of control at high speed, should electronic speed limiters that keep a vehicle from exceeding, perhaps, 70 mph, become mandatory because some with less skill cannot react quickly enough to keep themselves out of trouble?”
No. I’m against mandatory systems that severely limit performance in order to accomodate unskilled or inattentive riders. ABS improves on-road braking for all riders, including attentive, skilled, experienced ones.
“How about a collision avoidance system that applies the brakes because it determines you are about to hit something? This technology is already available and would be in the same category as ABS in your scenarios above.”
Except that it doesn’t work on bikes because of their greater maneuverability and narrower cross-section. It would false-trigger. And that’s a system something designed to make up for poor riding skills and/or not paying attention.
ABS, such as what Honda offers on its CBR sport bikes, is designed to enhance control for even skilled riders. No matter how skilled you are, you simply can’t match the ability of ABS to modulate the front and rear brakes in milliseconds during compromised traction situations. Bruce Lee was lethargically slow compared to modern ABS systems.
“If the rationale for making something mandatory for everyone is that it might reduce one individual’s chances of hurting someone else, there is no limit to what can be justified and there are far too many who enjoy having the authority to force others to do what they think best.”
The rationale and justification for ABS is that it would save about 1,800 lives per year, not one life. Were this some flawed and crude system, as a sport bike rider with 35+ years of motorcycling experience, I’d be loudly campaigning against it. But it’s not. It’s a system that is refined and proven in top-tier sport bikes.
Let’s not get into the logical fallacy of the Slippery Slope argument. Mandating one safety feature, whether front brakes, turn signals, or ABS, does not automatically mean that everything from speed limiters to airbags to on-board breathalyzers is sure to follow.
Fred M. says
todd wrote:
“From what I understand, having front brakes on a vehicle is not required by law.”
Title 49–Transportation, PART 571–FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS
§ 571.135, S5.1. Service brake system. Each vehicle shall be equipped with a service brake system acting on all wheels
“Also, it is not illegal to drink Jim Beam until the cows come home before you drive away in your SUV. It IS illegal to have a blood alcohol content of .08% while driving.”
So are you opposed to the government setting a BAC limit for you? Shouldn’t you be able to decide for yourself if you’re capable of driving safely with, say, 1.0?
kneeslider says
@Fred M:”Let’s not get into the logical fallacy of the Slippery Slope argument. Mandating one safety feature, whether front brakes, turn signals, or ABS, does not automatically mean that everything from speed limiters to airbags to on-board breathalyzers is sure to follow.”
If you place the words “must” or “sure to” or “inevitable” before “result” in the definition of slippery slope, it can be a logical fallacy when you narrowly define a situation and then illustrate why this decision does not logically lead to another. Unfortunately, our current legal system, now relying heavily on precedent instead of restricting itself to the specific situation at hand, can definitely move in the direction set in motion by a previous decision. That is not a logical fallacy, no matter how often promoters of a new law or regulation want to label it as such.
We are not discussing issues of basic social psychology, or, for that matter, logical arguments, we are specifically dealing with laws and regulations created by government agencies, as a mandatory vehicle requirement would be. Are you implying the common experience of government regulatory agencies expanding their jurisdiction and control is a fallacy?
Zippy says
Hey El Fredo, I t also illegal to run across the border in the USA and take our jobs. How is that working out for ya!
Stop worshipping at the alter of big government. Ride your bike and take your chance.
Did you really think Bruce Rossmeyer or the Crocodile Hunter would die old age homes?
They died taking risks and doing what they loved. I really recomend you not leave the house. Might stub your toe or something. Just sell your Mudercycle and get a TV.
smithmotorwheel says
The original question in the article was: Don’t you think the people who make and buy motorcycles should have a say in the matter? My answer is an enthusiastic yes. Fred M., it seems like you’re convinced that ABS is a good thing for you and your motorcycle that’s fine. But, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety should not have the right to demand what goes into ANY vehicle.
Please consider this, if ABS was such a lifesaver, don’t you think that motorcycle manufacturers would equip all of their models with it voluntarily to protect themselves from being sued?
Zippy says
Surveys have shown that %30 of buyers will never buy ABS. Are they will to cut another 1/3 off a market that shrank %40 last year!! Just to prove they are in charge!
1/2 the dealers in my Metro area are gone, Triumph, Ducati, Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki, Victory, Yamaha all lost at least one dealer near my house. Only HD has remained strong.
Dont tell people what they want, sell people want they want.
MCVTriumph says
Could it be that people who buy anti-lock braking systems are less likely to get into accidents to begin with because of their demographics? I’m not sure this study proved anything. A competent rider using both brakes can stop quicker than an ABS system…bets are off on sand and ice. Most of the bikes equipped with ABS are touring bikes, most riders of touring bikes are older and presumably more experienced, most sport bikes and cruisers are not equipped with ABS, maybe they should be comparing fatalities/accidents within the cohort that are buying bikes equipped with ABS, rather than all bikes…
Fred M. says
Zippy wrote:
“Hey El Fredo, I t also illegal to run across the border in the USA and take our jobs. How is that working out for ya!”
It’s working out fine for me. I’m not finding that there are a lot of illegal aliens competing for my job of building and testing satellites.
“Did you really think Bruce Rossmeyer or the Crocodile Hunter would die old age homes?”
I won’t speak ill of the dead, but it’s a darned shame that Bruce Rossmeyer wasn’t wearing a helmet.
“I really recomend you not leave the house. Might stub your toe or something. Just sell your Mudercycle and get a TV.”
I’ve got four motorcycles — and I ride at lean angles that would grind the frame off of your geriatricycle. When I went out today, I had on a full-face helmet, full leathers, and motorcycle boots — and about the time I was hitting triple digit speeds, you were probably polishing some little chrome gew-gaw on your rolling recliner.
smithmotorwheel wrote:
“The original question in the article was: Don’t you think the people who make and buy motorcycles should have a say in the matter?”
No, because damned few people know a thing about engineering or the current state of the art in ABS. We still have people that think that riding without helmets is a smart idea and that the airbag in their car is what’s going to kill them in a crash. Leave the engineering to engineers. We need the volume to bring the ABS costs down
“Please consider this, if ABS was such a lifesaver, don’t you think that motorcycle manufacturers would equip all of their models with it voluntarily to protect themselves from being sued?”
Nothing protects anyone from being sued. The statistics already show that ABS is a lifesaver; that question has been answered. Honda has already made it a goal to have ABS as an option on all of their motorcycles — so if you don’t give them a grand for $100 worth of hardware, you can’t sue when you crash your non-ABS Honda.
Zippy wrote: “Surveys have shown that %30 of buyers will never buy ABS.”
I think you are misreading the the surveys. They might show that 30% won’t buy it as an option. It doesn’t say that they will give up riding if all motorcycles have ABS standard. Hell, if I took the ABS sticker off of a CBR, you would never know it was there — unless you screwed up and it saved your butt. Even then, you’d probably still not figure it out and would assume that talent kept you upright.
“Dont tell people what they want, sell people want they want.”
So anything that any idiot wants should be sold to them? Never mind that the person railing against motorcycle ABS has never ridden a bike with it. Just sell him what he wants — and if he locks the front wheel and hits and kills some kid, pedestrian, pet, or bicyclist, you’re cool with that.
MCVTriumph wrote: “A competent rider using both brakes can stop quicker than an ABS system…”
Not in the real world. They can do that on a track with a marked place where they begin applying the brakes. Add in real-world factors like adrenaline, trying to swerve to avoid another vehicle, a person, or a deer, and the ABS will win almost every time.
But the comparison was between touring bikes of the exact same type, with and without ABS. If they had enough statistics to compare ABS vs. non-ABS on the 600cc sport bikes, I bet the difference would be even more dramatic, given the relative lack of experience that 600cc riders have.
Zippy says
Fred, I am not against ABS. I am against the government throwing me in jail for not paying the fines for buying/building a bike without it.
Why not just let the free market decide. Why force more rules, taxes, fees, fines, tolls, studies and madates on us.
It works, you like it, I got it, I dont care.
I notice that you did not mention how well this government you bow at the alter of is running the country. I was not polishing my chrome, I was working 3 jobs trying to pay my ever increasing tax bill and put food on the table. I don’t design satellites, I do semi skilled labor and sales. I just want to be left alone to live my life with big brother micromanaging my personal safety decisions.
Perhaps Bruce was not wearing a helmet, it was his decision as an adult. He was a smart guy, generous giver and self made millionaire. Who the hell are you or anyone to force him to wear a helmet? I am really really really glad is was not your job to invent the motorcycle. I can only imagine what it would look like.
Fred M. says
@Zippy
You wrote: “Fred, I am not against ABS. I am against the government throwing me in jail for not paying the fines for buying/building a bike without it.”
Zippy, I don’t think that anyone is talking about targeting consumers and people building bikes for their own use. It would probably even exempt small custom builders. It’s aimed at the Hondas, BMWs, Harleys, Yamahas, and Triumphs of the world.
“Why not just let the free market decide.”
We’re losing hundreds of lives every year because the consumer isn’t even getting to make the choice on the bike they want (it isn’t offered with ABS) — or is faced with paying a king’s ransom for ABS.
“I notice that you did not mention how well this government you bow at the alter of is running the country.”
I’m not going to turn this into a political discussion. If you think that the governments of Greece, Thailand, Iran, England, Germany, France, Canada, Mexico, China, etc. are doing a better job than ours, I’m not going to convince you otherwise.
“Perhaps Bruce was not wearing a helmet,”
Police and news reports say that he was not.
“it was his decision as an adult. He was a smart guy, generous giver and self made millionaire. Who the hell are you or anyone to force him to wear a helmet?”
I’m not trying to force any adult to wear one. It’s just a shame that Bruce *chose* to ride without one. I think that his family and many of his friends would probably agree with that sentiment.
Unlike helmets, ABS brakes can save the lives of people other than the rider.
“I am really really really glad is was not your job to invent the motorcycle. I can only imagine what it would look like.”
No different than they look like now. The safety features I would add would included ABS brakes (surprise), HID headlights, and a brake light flasher to get the attention of other motorists (the latter two I’ve already added to my Buell 1125CR). I’d add traction control on sport bikes — much as the manufacturers are already starting to do. None of those things change the appearance of the bikes, though they’d make a lot of riders, and the general public, considerably safer at very little additional cost.
You’re trying to make me out to be some safety zealot who’s in favor of speed governors, horsepower limitations, mandatory helmet laws, required motorcycle airbags, legislated use of body armor, and required collision avoidance systems. I’m not. I just think that modern motorcycle ABS could save a lot of lives and property damage without reducing the enjoyment of riding, and it needs to stop being an $800-$1000 boutique option only available on high-end bikes and become standard equipment.
Zippy says
Fred, lets back off the personal stuff and look at some facts defined by the free market Vs bigger government. As it pertains to the MC business.
Cruiser make up 60% of the total USA market, Heavy, slow, comfortable machines. HD sells more cruisers than all other combined. Folks want and buy thier aircooled non abs bikes. They offer it, it does not sell. Suzuki makes the least popular cruisers. Generic, undefined copys. The 109 line is an amazing machine, tech wise. Go blow the dust off a 2007 left over and ride one. 3 Suzy dealers in my metro area closed in the last year…3!!. Most folks buy based on style and emotion. I may not design satellites but I am a good salesman!
Triumph is growing. They refuse to build clones, ie: inline 4s and V twins. They put ABS on a lot of bikes. The Rocket 3 will have it across the line for 2010.
Indian is dying, just lowered the price of thier cheepest bike from $30k to $20k. They build cruiser clones. Lowtech air cooled V Twins with lots of chrome and style. ABS not offered.
Both companies started by billioniares who loved the brand and bought the companies.
There is a place for everyone. The leaders in thier specific stlye are doing as well as can be expected. Triumph and BMW will always have thier following. The metrics tend to copy style and add tech. Then try to look like HD. The Italians are in thier own world. If someone gave me a new Ducati or BMW I would ride it 1 time only. Right to the dealer to trade it in.
The free market is doing what it is designed to do. I am saving for a new bike, chrome, slow low tech cruiser for under $20k. I will no longer consider Triumph, Indian is now on the list. If folks stop buying Rockets and start buying Chiefs, things might switch back. I will buy it the day a new President is sworn in.
If I argued that sportbikes area simply too fast and unsafe and should be regulated out of exsistence and only big slow V twins should be sold you would be screaming from the roof tops.
Ride safe, Keep it under 100 please.
Zippy says
Fred, 1 more thing to note. With your emphasis on brakes I am suprised you design Satellites. I had a 1966 Plymouth Satellite, it had horrible brakes, Drums on all 4 wheels.
Fortunately private insdustry developed the disc brake and the free market preferred it on autos.
Fred M. says
@Zippy
You wrote “Cruiser make up 60% of the total USA market, Heavy, slow, comfortable machines. HD sells more cruisers than all other combined. Folks want and buy thier aircooled non abs bikes.”
Harley is a market leader in providing ABS and even making it standard on some models:
CVO Ultra Classic Electra Glide (standard)
Electra Glide Classic
Electra Glide Standard
Electra Glide Ultra Limited (standard)
Night Rod Special
Road Glide
Street Glide
Road King
Road King Classic
Road King Custom
Ultra Classic Electra Glide
“Suzuki makes the least popular cruisers. Generic, undefined copys. The 109 line is an amazing machine, tech wise.”
Yet it does not even have an ABS option. Suzuki does not offer ABS on any cruisers. Neither does Yamaha (Star Motorcycles). Honda offers it on three of their cruisers and Kawasaki offers it on only one.
Everyone has their own idea of what a motorcycle is for. I would definitely consider a Triumph and, were I getting a bagger, the Rocket III would be high on my list. Over 147 ft/lbs of torque at 2500 RPM! You could tow a boat with that. BMW has started building bikes that are interesting to me — or maybe I’m just getting older. Ducati’s fully-faired sport bikes are too racing oriented for street use (for me).
Indian is dying because they are viewed as just cruiser clones with the Indian name tacked onto them. People want an actual Indian motorcycle, designed and manufactured by Indian, not some contraption bolted together from various third party suppliers.
But after what Harley did with Buell, I’ll never own a Harley. They had an offer from Bombardier to buy Buell Motorcycle Company outright for a handsome sum. Harley rejected the offer and shut down Buell at a cost of $125million, putting 180 American employees at Buell’s Wisconsin factory out of work just weeks before Christmas. At about the same time, they announced that they would be selling Harleys in India. F*** HD and their fake patriotism.
I’m sorry to hear that you’re so opposed to our President that you’d not buy a bike while he’s in office. That’s hurting your local dealer, the employees there, and the people who build the bikes.
Fred M. says
“Fred, 1 more thing to note. With your emphasis on brakes I am suprised you design Satellites. I had a 1966 Plymouth Satellite, it had horrible brakes, Drums on all 4 wheels.”
Actually, I don’t design them. I build and test satellites and design ground support equipment for them. And I launch them.
But good one about the Plymouth Satellite. I had a ’63 Oldsmobile with a “Rocket V8.” That car had horrible drum brakes, too. The skinny, belted tires of the day didn’t help much with braking, either.
The problem with leaving everything up to the general public is that the public often takes decades to recognize the value of engineering improvements. Sometimes they never do. The federal government had to mandate the use of dual diagonal braking systems so that a single ruptured line would not take out all of the brakes in a car. They had to mandate that all cars be equipped with seat belts in 1970 (they had been extra-cost options in many cars even through the 1960s). They had to require that children’s pajamas not be flammable. Asbestos floor tiles didn’t go away because of free market purchasing decisions.
smithmotorwheel says
Fred M. wrote: “No, because damned few people know a thing about engineering or the current state of the art in ABS. We still have people that think that riding without helmets is a smart idea and that the airbag in their car is what’s going to kill them in a crash. Leave the engineering to engineers. We need the volume to bring the ABS costs down.”
Fred, I hold a BS in Mechanical Engineering Technology from Purdue University. So, I probably am one of your ‘damned few’ who know a thing or two about engineering. That being said, part of working in an engineering or technical field is knowing not to blindly trust statistics.
Fred M. wrote: Nothing protects anyone from being sued. The statistics already show that ABS is a lifesaver; that question has been answered. Honda has already made it a goal to have ABS as an option on all of their motorcycles — so if you don’t give them a grand for $100 worth of hardware, you can’t sue when you crash your non-ABS Honda.
Fred, you got me. You are correct, anyone can sue anyone else over anything. It doesn’t mean you are going to win your case. Why aren’t we seeing lawsuits against motorcycle manufacturers from people that were killed or injured because their bike didn’t have ABS? Is it because those cases can’t be won? People have won lawsuits for coffee that was too hot. Why not over ABS?
ABS is about as much of a lifesaver on a motorcycle as a rear-view camera is on a minivan. It’s a safety device with high complexity and high cost with a low return on protection. As I’ve said before, if YOU want it great! But, if every new motorcycle in the US had to have it tomorrow, I doubt that anyone would be able to connect the change with a drop in motorcycle fatalities.
I agree with you 100% on one point…”Leave the engineering to engineers.”…not the IIHS!
Fred M. says
@smithmotorwheel
“That being said, part of working in an engineering or technical field is knowing not to blindly trust statistics.”
One also knows that statistics should not be dismissed solely because the reader does not like what they suggest. If you have a valid beef with the sample set, methodology, or conclusions, spell it out, please.
“ABS is about as much of a lifesaver on a motorcycle as a rear-view camera is on a minivan. It’s a safety device with high complexity and high cost with a low return on protection.”
I’m sorry, but I’m just not seeing any reputable studies to back up that assertion. Several studies concluded that a a very large percentage of motorcycle accidents are caused by riders locking up the wheels in stops. A notable findings in the famous Hurt report was “In the single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide-out and fall due to overbraking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.”
“I agree with you 100% on one point…â€Leave the engineering to engineers.â€â€¦not the IIHS!”
I’m not suggesting for a moment that the IIHS is should be blindly trusted. I’d want to see independent studies and comments from the industry before any legislation was enacted. But based on independent reviews of modern motorcycles with ABS, conclusions by reputable independent studies on braking errors leading to crashes, and anecdotal evidence, I’m certainly leaning towards support of a requirement for ABS.
Zippy says
Fred, you are indeed right about one thing. I do want as many folks out of work and pissed off at the government for the next 2 elections cycles. These elections do have consequences. I want folks involved. Take away thier job and close thier shop and they come looking for answers.
Like the ABS issue, it is not the equipment or the man, it is the mandate to fine and arrest me for not letting the government make my personal safety and health decisions for me.
Let me live, (or die) fail, suceed and just be. You cannot run the country ($14,000,000,000,000 in debt, and climbing) or control the border. But you will force me to use your brakes or doctor.
smithmotorwheel says
Fred M., I think you are contradicting yourself. In the end of your comment you state: “I’m not suggesting for a moment that the IIHS is should be blindly trusted.”, but at the beginning you challenge me to find fault with the statistics provided by the IIHS. I doubt if I can. I don’t have a problem with the data, I have problems with the source (IIHS).
I’m not a statistician and I doubt that you are either. But, I’m sure that we both know that statistics are a tool and nothing more. I had a statistics class many years ago wherein one half of the students had to use a set of statistical data to prove their case was true. The other half had to use the EXACT same set of statistics to prove that their case was false. It wasn’t hard for either group.
You seem to rely solely on studies and statistics to prove your point. If you have any engineering or scientific principles or theories to illustrate how that a two-wheeled motorcycle without a gyroscope can magically remain stable in a panic stop in anything other than a straight line due to the addition of ABS, spell it out, please.
ABS was a ‘success’ on cars because they don’t TILT. I’m sure you’re right that there is a marginal advantage to having ABS. I’ve locked up the rear brake on my HD and my Kawasaki because I had my foot too far forward on the peg or floorboard and pushed the brake lever farther than I had intended. But, again, the high cost and complexity coupled with the low return on protection by adding this feature does not currently (and probably never will) appeal to me.
Fred M., it’s obvious that you want ABS to be cheaper because you think you need it. We could go back and forth citing precedents, personal experiences, statistics, whatever. I think that it’s best that we just agree to disagree.
Zippy says
…and yes this is a form of incremental socialism. “Well, it is best for “society” to force this rules and changes on you” If only everyone could afford it, then that would be fair.
Very very very few folks buy the cheapest bike made. If you want ABS on your new bike, fine buy it. Find the money, Lots of great choices.
But do not force it on everyone to be safe or fair and then not call it socialism over liberty.
Fred M. says
smithmotorwheel 05.16.10 at 6:35 pm
“Fred M., I think you are contradicting yourself. In the end of your comment you state: “I’m not suggesting for a moment that the IIHS is should be blindly trusted.â€, but at the beginning you challenge me to find fault with the statistics provided by the IIHS. I doubt if I can. I don’t have a problem with the data, I have problems with the source (IIHS).”
Ah, the old ad-hominem: I can’t refute the message, so I will attack the messenger.
But I am not contradicting myself, at all. I’m stating that one has to rely on a wealth of data, including that study, the Hurt report, and the MAIDS study in Europe.
“I’m not a statistician and I doubt that you are either. But, I’m sure that we both know that statistics are a tool and nothing more.”
So are cameras, but photographs are often strong evidence in favor of, or against, a given claim.
“I had a statistics class many years ago wherein one half of the students had to use a set of statistical data to prove their case was true. The other half had to use the EXACT same set of statistics to prove that their case was false. It wasn’t hard for either group.”
I’m hoping that you’ve progressed beyond believing that such introductory college stunts can be used as a damnation of all statistical analysis.
“You seem to rely solely on studies and statistics to prove your point. If you have any engineering or scientific principles or theories to illustrate how that a two-wheeled motorcycle without a gyroscope can magically remain stable in a panic stop in anything other than a straight line due to the addition of ABS, spell it out, please.”
Those things at each end of the bike, the wheels and tires, are gyroscopes. If your non-ABS bike locks them up, game over. I strongly recommend that you read some books on the subject, like Kieth Code’s “A Twist of the Wrist 2: The Basics of High-Performance Motorcycle Riding.”
“Fred M., it’s obvious that you want ABS to be cheaper because you think you need it.”
Yes. That’s it. I just don’t have the skill and coordination that you do. I’m a bumbling, clumsy oaf on a motorcycle, just looking for any crutch I can find to keep me from crashing. And I want you to pay for it. Wow, what a dickish way you came up with to try to end this; insinuate that I’m in favor of ABS because of insecurity and/or lack of motorcycling skill. I really am disappointed.
smithmotorwheel says
Fred M, thanks for the book suggestion. I would probably enjoy reading that. In the meantime, I recommend that you read up on the difference between a gyroscope and a flywheel. I seem to remember there was a fundamental difference from an introductory college lecture. Who knows? Maybe the information will be useful in your satellite design career. I’ve heard that rockets use gyroscopes.
Sorry if you think I was insulting your skill level. That was not the case. You’ve mentioned several times that you want to bring the cost down for ABS. If I’m forced to buy ABS so that a lower cost will benefit you, then I AM paying for it.
Fred M. says
@smithmotorwheel
Motorcycle wheels act as gyroscopes. See
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/motorcycle4.htm
Motorcycles are made both more stable and more resistant to changing direction due to the gyroscopic forces exerted by the engines. See the article entitled “The Third Gyroscope: Adds stability” by James R. Davis:
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2182
As to satellites, I believe that you are referring to the reaction wheels used in attitude control systems. These are flywheels attached to electric motors. Apply torque in one direction and the spacecraft rotates in the opposite direction. Reaction wheels work around a nominal zero rotation speed, so they are not functioning as gyroscopes.
If you did not intend offense, then I am sorry that it sounded that way to me. I’m not advocating ABS because I think that I “need it.” Sure, I think that there’s a chance that it could prevent me from crashing — just as it could prevent you from crashing or just about any road rider from crashing. The lower cost of ABS would benefit thousands of riders who know that they are safer with it. And its standard inclusion would benefit thousands more who don’t know that they are safer with it — just as helmets saved the lives of many riders who only wore them because they were forced to by family, peer pressure, or laws (I’m opposed to helmet laws, just to avoid that argument).
Blinkin Scout says
I bought a Triumph Thunderbird SE yesterday with ABS. Last November, after a light rain, I hit a slick sheet of pavement on my Honda VTX 1300 and began to fishtail wildly at 15 mph after touching the rear brakes very lightly in preparation for a Stop sign. I kept the bike up, but ended up with the bike positioned 90 degrees to the curbe with front wheel over the curve and the rear wheel still on the road. Luckily no one was behind me. I guess that I hit a oily patch that was produced by the light rain.
When I got home, I didn’t stop thinking about this event for hours. I have come to the conclusion that the amount of pressure you apply to your brakes in road conditions that are less than perfect conditions is a guess at best. With ABS, I can eliminate the guess work and know that this technology ( assuming that it does not fail) will give me that added bit of insurance that I will need whenever I encounter a similar situation again. I may never need to use the ABS, but knowing that it is there should give me some peace of mind.
I have put 57,000 kilometers on my 2004 Honda VTX and have enjoyed it immensely. However, the one time I dropped it was in the rain at ~ 15 mph and I would never have gone down if ABS had been on the bike. I plan to ride for many more years and my new ABS-equiped Triumph should ( touch wood) help me keep the shiny side up!
Marcus Shiffler says
This study is not quite acceptable to me, as-is. ABS almost certainly does save lives, however, large-scale trials are needed, and this data isn’t to scale.
It may be the typical motorcycle fatality without ABS is someone age 19-25 on a new 600 sportbike or liter bike that they couldn’t control anyway, who got a bike they couldn’t afford without ABS because it was cheaper for their college-loan paying speedracer selves, and failed to maintain it because of inexperience and lack of money or knowledge. And the typical ABS representative is a BMW cruiser aged 35-45 with a lot of experience and the money to maintain the bike well, with the patience to do so carefully (as well as not being weeded out “first round” with the kind of carelessness that gets bikers killed in the first place). If so, you have tested for and found variables unrelated to ABS brakes, and reached a conclusion that may not be false, but remains flawed.
Not that ABS doesn’t help at all, but non-ABS brakes and careful control can stop you in a shorter distance than ABS with equal control in many conditions. … I kinda wish my bike had ABS, though. But it’s also another system that can break down.