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Do Harley Davidson and Apple Computer Have Something in Common?

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It’s starting to seem like Harley Davidson and Apple may have something in common. What? Leather clad riders on their American made V-Twins blasting down the highway and trendy folks using their iPhones for, well, … just about everything, what could they have in common? OK, forget the people using their products, how about the companies? One company cutting costs and barely hanging on while the other sells boat loads of product making huge profits in the process, old school heavy industry versus high tech, … I could go on and on. They’re obviously complete opposites, but, there is something that shows some similarity and it has to do with their competition.

If you’re an iPhone user, you may be one of those true believers who waited in line to get their iPhone 3 then immediately traded it for an iPhone 4 when those came out. Apple could hardly make them fast enough and fan boys scooped them up. It’s a really slick piece of high tech. With a cult following and a huge lead and enormous market share, (sound like Harley?) who could challenge the iPhone for dominance. Apple has been around forever (like Harley?), in computer years anyway, no upstart could ever have hoped to dent the insurmountable lead, … right up until the Android based smartphones popped up. Users found it could do pretty much everything the iPhone could and sometimes more, they told their friends, more Android phones were sold and right now, iPhone is fast falling behind. Not long ago if you predicted that, everyone would have pointed at you and laughed. No one’s laughing now, especially not at Apple. Hmm …

The reason I bring this up is a couple of comments on the post about Polaris buying Indian brought the same response. Harley is smiling at the upstart, maybe even laughing. Who do they think they are? Harley has devoted customers, or at least they used to, right now they’re just hanging on and even Keith Wandell admits 2011 will be a tough year. Harley is making a little money from its financial operations but they have a long slow road ahead.

Polaris on the other hand, is actually making money selling things they build. Imagine that! After buying Indian last week, just yesterday, they finalized an agreement to buy GEM (Global Electric Motorcars), an electric vehicle manufacturer. Polaris is growing. They’re making money in product lines other than motorcycles. They could get serious with Indian, another old time American motorcycle brand, putting resources into it and then show Harley some real competition. Harley doesn’t have a lot of bullets left, right now. If Polaris is serious, they could do some real damage to Harley’s market share. Interesting to think about.

Posted on Filed Under: Motorcycle Business

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Comments

  1. It’s about how you view risk

    Polaris sees the way to prosperity by going on the offensive and making acquisitions. Risky, yes. Diversification usually is.

    Harley sees the way to prosperity by cutting non-profitable or risky ventures and concentrating on the core business. They probably justify this as being less risky. others may say it is putting all your eggs in one basket.

    Who is right? Time will tell.

    I might add, that it is not like either Apple or H-D make uncompetitive products. Just the opposite. In most regards they are the benchmarks of their respective industries. It’s up to a challenger to change that status quo.

  2. If you really think of it, Polaris like Google, isn’t looking at one competitor as its rival. It has many on many fronts. Polaris is a snowmobile manufacturer first and foremost. Snowmobiles sell well only when there is a good snow year and when customers have the money to spend. A brown winter kills sales. So Polaris branches out into ATVs and PWCs. Then they started with bikes and so on. Their biggest rival used to be Arctic Cat. Now its BRP, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and others. I don’t think they are as interested in toppling HD as they are at just digging their heels in and making money and increasing their market share.

  3. Not long ago everyone laughed at Apple entering the phone business. Increasingly change is the new constant & hubris typically comes before a fall. Or closer to the motorcycle world, who would have guessed only a few years ago that Hyundai would be beating Toyota and Honda head-to-head?

    Many see the parallels between PCs in the early 80s and smartphones today. “Closed systems” Apple was an early pioneer then but MS DOS (like Android today) could be used by any PC manufacturer and it rapidly dominated the market. Apple is older, wiser and stronger now. Maybe things will be different.

    Apple & HD? couldn’t be more different.

  4. Interesting comparison certainly. However, I would argue that Apple is in the position that it is because it constantly releases products that consumers never knew they wanted, rather than sticking with a tried-and-true product, with a different “limited edition” paint scheme every year. As great as Harley may or may not be, it’s hard to argue that they’ve been on the cutting edge of technology since the 1969 CB750 knocked the pants off the Sportster (with the Revolution engine being a possible exception).

    For that matter, I wouldn’t exactly consider the combined force of the Android market (LG, Samsung, HTC, Motorola, Sony, and others) to be an “upstart” when they were making phones long before Apple was. But that’s actually something that Apple and Harley have in common. Harley (like Apple) has a larger market share than any other individual manufacturer on its own, but when the Big 4 are combined (like the Android phones), their whopping 66% easily beats out Harley’s 27% (2007 figures, sorry, can’t find newer).

    Nonetheless, I’m still very impressed with Polaris. What they’ve accomplished is no small feat, especially considering the state of the market. Now we just need to see if they snatch up our good friend Eric. Everybody’d better watch out then.

  5. As with the changing global climate, in the business world all the rules have changed. H-D, once a powerhouse that rolled over everything in its way, now is watching its market share shrink as its main demographic trades cruisers and baggers for knee replacements and hearing aids. The Motor Company has not branched out in a big way to engage other, younger demographics, and the new customers it desperately needs aren’t making the kind of money necessary to buy Harleys. If they buy bikes at all, they’re going to other manufacturers where they can buy plenty of bike for far less, or even picking up used bike brands that don’t sell for nearly a much as a new bike the way Harleys do.

    Polaris, on the other hand, is not only putting its eggs in different baskets, it’s finding new baskets. Recreational vehicles like snowmobiles and ATVs not selling as well as they once did? No problem; there’s motorcycles and electric vehicles. Polaris shows a willingness to look for new ventures that are related to their core business (making vehicles) but that might not be within their core business. This kind of diversification is a wise strategy that will carry the company over the humps it can see and those that are still hidden. Who knows what will shake out? The GEM market positions Polaris to jump into EVs with both feet with a proven product. Or there might be something else they haven’t yet thought of, that will take them in new directions.

    Looking at history, we see manufacturers finding totally new markets for their products. Seagrave in the late 18th century made high-quailty, lightweight ladders for serious tradesmen. Firemen discovered Seagrave ladders were far easier to handle and much stronger than the run-of-the-mill ladders they had been using, and eagerly adopted them for firefighting duty. Seagrave, seeing an untapped market, developed ladders specifically for firemen, and the company soon manufactured other firefighting equipment. It now is one of the premier manufacturers of fire engines.

    Polaris sees the possibilities. Harley-Davidson sees the bottom line. H-D isn’t going away soon, but it could very well find itself in a downward spiral and wondering what happened.

  6. If Victory was a stand alone brand it would now be bankrupt, Indian has what .5% of the market ?? Polaris will need to learn a thing or two about marketing their products if they are to be a threat to anyone in the motorcycle world. Yamaha, by copying HD marketing is doing reasonabley well with the low cost cruiser crowd. We have a Harley dealer and a Metric dealer 1 mile apart here, on Sunday the Harley dealer is a busy lively place, the Metric dealer is not even open for bussiness. I have no Idea where a Victory dealer is located, I wish Victory well, but I’m afraid they have a lot to learn.

    • Polaris is moving their atv and side by side manufacturing to Mexico because (and get this) they want to be closer to their market in the southwest. Shortly, Victory will follow and you can bet on it. Tin man is right: if it wasn’t for the Polaris mother ship,Victory would be history. I love the way people talk about the demise of HD. American boomers are indeed aging, but there are miliions that will be around and buying for a long while. The majority won’t be buying Victory’s or any other imitation cruisers. They’ll be buying HD. Count on it, live with it, get over it.

  7. Apple took a dual slow moving product the cell phone and leap frogged it forward a couple years. This caught its competition off guard and gave apple a second resource outside of computers for income. Three things Apple did right here was they made a well built product, integrated it well with its current products (mac books via itunes) and did hitler like control of the app store. While a lot of people might bitch about this control it allowed them keep things very stable without much trouble.

    While polaris has stepped into a couple new markets they need to innovate or produce a more reliable product and market it well. Personally I would like to see them pick up motus, Erik B or a roland sands to help them create a real american made motorcycle that is up to the times and doesnt cost 20k.

    • YES! Putting a modern, American made, liquid cooled twin in the hands of Roland Sands and asking him to make 3 new models for the “modern” American motorcycle market would be genius! Good brakes, suspension, etc; while keeping the price under $14K. I guarantee those 3 bikes would be hot sellers!

  8. For HD it is simply a poor economy that is the real problem. Sure they could use some new power but on the other hand there are still many younger people that are waiting for the nest to empty out to buy a Harley. I can count a half dozen 30 to 40 year olds I know that just bought a new HD, and I’m not even looking to find who is buying. As Tinman said the shops are full of people on weekends and the other shops have few people at thiers. You may never see that big upswing in motorcycles of any brand for a long time again. You only have so many buyers for any sport but don’t count HD out. Maybe a 6 count but then they get back up. Heck our local Honda shop has an open house and they still offer new VTX 1800’s that are 2008’s. Nice

    • There haven’t been to many dealerships that I’ve walked into lately that haven’t had some old brand new leftover stock that is price slashed ready to sell. It depends on the dealership. My cousin bought a brand new 08 Road King last fall as his HD dealer was desperate to get rid of it. If he didn’t buy it, it might still be there. Even car dealerships have a car here or there that they can’t get rid of. The smarter dealerships won’t have this problem.

      Don’t forget that a lot of us would have loved to buy a HD if they only made a bike for us. That means the right style, performance, and price (sub 10K). They could have made a XR883 and it would have sold as long as they made it a competitive bike, not (as HD would call it) a girls bike. There are still sheeple out there that HD hopes to capitalize on. It has been how they have been doing buisness for years. Until they make a bike I can be proud to own, my money is going somewhere else.

  9. While I can see HD and Apple being similar companies, I don’t know Polaris, so I am not sure about the angle you are looking at.
    What I would say though is that Apple customers and HD customers are very similar – they like the image more than the product.

      • I’m pleased to see this comparison because I’ve been saying it for years. Apple and HD basically brought their companies back from the brink of failure through really thorough, successful feats of marketing. It’s almost like they leveraged their consumer demand into (eventual) development. I think it’s just a fact that a metric bike or a pc laptop gives you more bang for the buck – so it’s impressive that those two companies have created demand for premium-priced products based on image, philosophy, ethos, or whatever – rather than hard stats and specs.

    • Right. As a 50 year old engineer, I just knew I’d be considered really hip and cool if I bought Apple products. It had nothing to do with the engineering, user interface, applications, or support. It was all about looking cool. LOL.

      • Fair point, Fred, but you’ve got to be an above-average end user. I use a Mac for multimedia production – for which they’re definitely the superior platform – and a cheap pc laptop for almost everything else, where it doesn’t matter so much. I admit I want a Road King bad, though I can convince myself that there’s nothing wrong with my Nighthawk (ok, don’t start) and it’ll probably run for another 20 years. Don’t think anyone can deny that both companies have done very well through smart marketing.

    • I take exception to that statement, as I love both my Harleys, but I’m a HD diehard.

      The main issue with the Polaris/Indian thing, is that it’s been tried before many times, even back as far as the 60’s, and it has always failed. Maybe the reason for this, is the fact that the vintage Indian owners don’t accept them as a continuance of the brand. If Polaris is to make a go of this, then the bikes will have to be priced inline with the imports, because it will be viewed as one by many.
      I respect the old Polaris, because the products, with some exceptions, were made in the US. I won’t ever buy a Polaris motorcycle, but I like that they are made here. Of course, I’m set in my ways, and don’t try many new things. Even HD has stumbled with the V-Rod, so just putting a logo on something, doesn’t mean it will be accepted into the fold.

  10. I love Harleys. I used to own one, then kids, now no Harley. I must say that I absolutely love the product, but I do not like the image. The more Harley people I meet, the less I like them.

  11. Interesting comparison but I don’t think it exactly works.
    As someone mentioned above Apple makes products people didn’t know they wanted. Even before the Ipod and Iphone though they led the way in the industry. Way too many firsts to lists. I do love Apple products but they can be frustrating as they have seemed to have the unofficial motto of, “Keep up or get left behind” for their consumers. They have gone out on a limb many times and kept pushing and somehow made it through each time. What like 3 drastic changes in processors? Dropping the floppy drive which at the time was seen as blaspheme. The jump to OS X was pretty risky as well.
    I’ve never viewed HD like that though. Maybe HD is more like Microsoft actually? Actually that kind of works especially thinking about bits of 3.1 still being in their os up until Vista. But to avoid starting an argument I’ll refrain from pointing out the similarities.
    The other problem is if we stick to HD and Polaris only, that leaves Polaris being Ubuntu and that just doesn’t work at all as a comparison….nothing really in common at all there.

  13. If HD had just swallowed it’s pride and got smart 10 years ago and put more cash into developing truly competitive American made sport bikes, they may be singing a different tune right now. I realize the Japanese companies are tough to beat, but I for one would love to buy an American made sportbike or naked streetfighter if it were even close to the same level of quality.

    • Well, I’ll admit that the Buell won’t match wheels with most of todays import sport bikes in speed and acceleration, but the handling is right up there, if you believe what is printed in magazines. Now, if your just into riding on the rear wheel for miles on end, then there isn’t a HD motorcycle for your style of riding.

  14. I think Apple is truly innovative while HD is probably the most conservative company product wise ever. Their strength is their image, not their product.

    They should take an example from BMW and their S1000R. That bike is to motorcycles what the iphone is to mobile phones.

  15. Android is not taking market share away from Apple. Android is taking it away from the dwindling dumbphone market.

    Apple iPhone users are not trading in their iPhones to get Android-based phones. The Android OS was just a quick and cheap way for a mobile phone manufacturer to bring a smartphone to market — just as the Honda designed GY6 and QMB engines are cheap ways for Chinese manufacturers to slap together scooters. And those Android phones are as much a threat to Apple as those Chinese scooters are to Harley.

    The iPhone is an up-market device, and, if Apple’s history is a guide, it will remain so. Android, conversely, made the smartphone a mass-market device, with many low-cost, low-end products. (There are also a bunch of low-end tablets starting to flood the market, many of which operate with Android OS, intended to capture the low-end market that thinks that iPads are too expensive.)

    Unlike the iPhone, which is available on only two U.S. carriers, Android phones are available on many. So every user on Sprint, Virgin Mobile, Cellular One, T-Mobile, etc. could upgrade their dumbphone to an Android-based smartphone without changing carriers, plans, etc. That’s a big draw when you’re talking about a family plan or a carrier that has very good regional coverage. The non-iPhone carriers are desperately pushing, and subsidizing, Android phones in order to lock in their existing customers for another year or two so that they don’t leave to get iPhones on AT&T and Verizon. In fact, T-Mobile cited its lack of the iPhone as the reason for its sluggish sales, and why it was eventually forced to sell out to AT&T. “Consumers like T-Mobile but they also want to have the iPhone,” said the CEO of T-Mobile’s parent firm Deutsche Telekom. T-Mobile saw it’s cost to attract new customers rise from $116 to $134 in a year and the cost to retain a customer skyrocket from $58 to $87. If Android is such a compelling consumer choice, explain those numbers.

    The Android market is fragmenting, with so many different hardware configurations and OS versions that developers are having to release multiple versions of the same application. Over half of the Android market is still running a 1.x version of the OS while the rest are on the 2.x generation, leaving many of those 1.x users unable to run compelling apps that only run under the current generation of the OS. The lack of oversight and review has lead to massive distributions of malware in the Android marketplace (that’s what happens when you’re low-end — you can’t afford the kind of rigorous, expensive app review process that Apple has).

    Want to see how scared the actual experts are about Apple’s viability and the “threat” of Android? Look at the stock price history for Apple. In one year, Apple’s stock has risen over 29%. Harley’s has risen 6.4% in that same time, while the Dow Jones Industrial Average has climbed 16%.

    In closing, stick to motorcycles and leave commentary on the tech sector to those of us who are in it.

    • Looks like I need to put footnotes on these posts.

      “In closing, stick to motorcycles and leave commentary on the tech sector to those of us who are in it.”

      Gosh Fred, you’re going to hurt my feelings, I thought I had a little tech sector experience :-). Learned electronics when components were discrete, even worked with vacuum tubes, back when logic gate flip flops were bistable multivibrators and we knew how they actually worked, that was before I learned those new fangled digital electronics and then learned Boolean Algebra to analyze logic circuits. I worked on Data General mini computers and then eventually PCs. Learned Unix back in the early 80s, was a Novell CNE and Microsoft Certified Professional, worked as a network admin and systems admin and found early on how easy it was to network Apple products. I like Apple, but this has nothing to do with how good Apple products are, my point has to do with market share, what people are buying.

      According to The Nielsen Company figures as of March 2011, the latest figures available, the Apple iPhone is losing market share when compared to all Android based smartphones or when you compare Apple iOS to Android OS.

      Without getting into the weeds with loads of data and graphs, you can go to the Neilsen site and see for yourself.

      By the way, some other sites noticed the change, Business Insider and Wired, just to name two, and those aren’t motorcycle sites. Just because a person rides motorcycles, doesn’t mean he’s living in a technological backwater.

      • Paul,

        As someone who rides motorcycles, often to my engineering job at an aerospace company, I’m well aware that motorcycle riding is not indicative of being a Luddite. Heck, I organized a successful Motorcycle To Work Day at my company, which was attended by plenty of engineers.

        But I think that you’re misinterpreting the Neilson survey (cited by Wired and Business Insider). That’s a survey asking consumers what they plan to purchase in the future. The survey isn’t indicating that Apple is losing smartphone customers; it’s not suggesting that existing iPhone customers are planning to ditch their iPhones in favor of Android phones.

        The survey includes responses from people who plan to replace their free flip phones with free smartphones — a market that Apple isn’t competing in. When T-Mobile is offering more than a half-dozen Android phones for free (check their web site), there will be a lot of takers, but I doubt that those buyers were seriously considering spending $200-$300 each for an iPhone 4.

        The survey is not indicating that Apple will sell fewer iPhones. The smartphone market is ballooning, with many vendors offering products as much lower price points than Apple’s. And 25% of next year’s smartphone market is going to be a heck of a lot more phones than 30% of this year’s market.

        Vespa has a much lower percentage of the scooter market now that the Chinese scooters are being sold everywhere for less than $1000 to Americans panicked about $4/gallon gas prices, but that doesn’t mean that Vespa (owned by Piaggio), or its investors, consider the Chinese scooters to be a threat to them or that the higher sales of the Chinese scooters means that consumers prefer them to Vespas.

        • The survey says:

          Half of those surveyed in March 2011 who indicated they had purchased a smartphone in the past six months said they had chosen an Android device. A quarter of recent acquirers said they bought an iPhone

          and then:

          As of March 2011, 37 percent of mobile consumers who owned a smartphone had a device with an Android OS. Apple’s iOS, claimed by 27 percent of consumers

          That’s right now, not in the future.

        • You do know that you don’t have to lose customers to lose market share, don’t you? If the market for smart phones grows significantly, and your competitor(s) grab those new customers, you have still lost market share even if you haven’t lost any of your existing customers.

        • @Eric: Exactly! As smartphones move down-market, with many Android models available for free with a 2-year contract, Apple will lose market share. That Apple chooses to not compete in the growing low-end arena doesn’t mean that they have lost their luster and their appeal to customers.

    • What I’ve seen is a different perspective that easily relates the two companies (Apple and H-D). Everyone that I know that has an iPhone like to show it off. They liked to be part of the in-crowd. The people I know how have some sort of Android told me they liked the available features (like GPS mostly) but didn’t want to look like they were part of a trend. Actually, one person I know with an iPod (going back some years) immediately replaced his white earphones with typical black ones so as not to appear like he’s trying to follow a trend.

      The small number of people I know that own (or want to own) a Harley do so because it’s THE bike to own. They are not typically riders, it’s just a symbol or toy that they want in order to be part of the club. The guys and girls I know that are really into riding are not necessarily drawn to the H-D brand. My father-in-law skews this a little; he’s a serious rider but rides a modified Sportster because he says he’s too old for a Ninja (I suggested a Concours..).

      I like the basic simplicity of the Sportster (like a nice, simple flip-phone – it makes phone calls like any phone should) yet the short amount of time I’ve spent on them makes me not want to own one. It’s not as much fun hitting the rev limiter right off idle, scraping everything around the slowest of corners, or being bounced off the seat over cracks in the pavement. A UJM looks very welcoming after an hour ride on a Sportster. I’ve tried to use an iPhone to make a call and it’s pretty awkward trying to determine if you are speaking into the mouthpiece or where you should stick your ear. I think it was designed to slip out of your hand and I’ve been to too many “social” gatherings watching each person glued to his own smart phone, ignoring every thing and person around them (I think they’re hoping people will watch over their shoulder or ask about their phone).

      So, yeah, to me they’re the same.

      -todd

    • Your ignorance about Apple products is astounding in this day and age. Apple’s products are highly regarded because they are the best in their sectors. They consistently have the best quality of construction, best user interfaces, and some of the best performance. They are the antithesis of Harley.

      If you’re feeling frisky and want to debate the point, bring it on. I’m an engineer in the aerospace industry and would welcome the opportunity to discuss the engineering aspects of the Apple products that make them so much better than the competition. Want to talk about things like a CNC-milled aluminum chassis for the laptops? Want to talk about class-leading performance and battery life? Want to talk about the quality and responsiveness of the touch screens and touch pads? Want to talk about the camera quality of the iPhone vs. they typical mobile phone camera? Want to discuss how Apple has been the first to bring the new Thunderbolt I/O port to notebooks?

      • Fred. You are a highly educated engineer. Yippy! Your mom must be proud! She must have forgotten to teach you manners. No one likes someone who brags.

        I left Apple and all of its advantages for a simple reason, freedom. I proudly own my Droid and its problems simply because I like it better. I like its character. I like that I can use it without iTunes. I like that I can manage it and its files. I regret that I ever used iTunes and purchased music from its store. It is so restricting.

        • Stating one’s qualifications to debate a topic isn’t bragging. It’s not like I started boasting about my salary, where I’ve been published, what company’s I’ve consulted to, etc.

          As to manners, when someone starts out by accusing me of buying technical products based on “consumer religion,” I take that as an insult and respond in kind.

          I’m glad that you like your Droid and hope that it serves you well. You won’t find me praising iTunes as I don’t think very highly of it at all. But I’m willing to tolerate it for the stability, build quality, and overall usability of the Apple products.

          I don’t really understand why you believe that music purchased from the iTunes store is “so restrictive.” As soon as Apple could negotiate terms with the music publishers, they removed all DRM (digital rights management) from the music sold there. I hardly think that you can blame Apple for the fact that the music industry insisted on DRM.

      • Fred – take it easy on the apple juice. Antithesis to Harley? Not in every respect, which is one of the key points to Paul’s provocative article.

        Apple & Harley are the same when you consider competitors target their market share and/or consumer perception of quality, which undoubtedly fuels the former. Both Apple & HD have loads of both.

        You wrote, “Apple’s products are highly regarded because they are the best in their sectors.” So is Harley if you consider the intended goal of the product.

        Many of those attributes you mentioned about Apple can be directly heard from a Harley buyer when he/she explains their buying decision. Truth is, many of these buyers never even considered the other cruisers at all. No test rides, no ride report analysis, nothing but….”I’m gonna get a Harley”. Same thing happened with the iPhone. That is changing.

        As for looking forward from this article, I’d much rather be in Apple’s loafers than HD’s boots.

        • Please understand that I’m not suggesting that the entire article is without merit or that there are no parallels between the two companies. I know that there are loyal, fanatical Apple customers who, like many Harley customers, never considered purchase of another brand’s competing product.

          What bothers me is the marginalization of all Apple customers based on the unquestioning devotion of a few fanatics. Most people who choose to buy MacBooks, iPads, iPhones, and iPods are not sleeping in front of Apple stores the night before a product roll-out. They aren’t choosing the Apple product because it’s shiny or because the logo will impress their friends. The scientists I worked with from JPL and SAIC chose to buy MacBooks because of the engineering, support, and quality, not because they were ‘fanboys,’ members of a ‘cult,’ or part of ‘the Apple crowd.’

          Most Apple customers, unlike most Harley customers, aren’t buying an image or lifestyle statement. Hell, I’m a 50 year old engineer — it’s not like chicks will think I’m hot because I carry an iPhone.

          If you evaluate an Apple iPhone as a phone, a MacBook as a notebook computer, or an Mac Pro as a desktop, high-end computer, they really do very well, often winning comparison “shoot-outs” in non-brand-specific publications. The same cannot be said of Harley. Their bikes are seldom judged to be top-of-the-heap in their classes.

          But getting to the heart of the article: When the smartphone market is rapidly growing and much of that growth is in low-end models (free with contract in some cases) in which Apple has chosen to not compete, that Apple commands a lower percentage of the new purchases is not a sign of Apple losing its appeal. The guy who was planning on getting another flip phone two years ago is not figuring that he’ll get a free, or almost free, Android phone. That’s not some sign that Apple is on the way out.

        • replying to Fred’s comment below since there was no further reply button below that…

          “…often winning comparison “shoot-outs” in non-brand-specific publications. The same cannot be said of Harley… ”

          True, from an objective, performance score sheet. However, apple’s success is also due to its packaging, aesthetic design, & marketing. All of which has been a big part of both HD’s & Apple’s success.

          The article does talk about the other comments in your last paragraph below….”on the way out” for Apple? No, but the door has been opened wider for HD now that Polaris has Indian.

          If the opened-up market due to free phone offers eventually converts x % of Apple owners to Droids or whatever, then Apple will need to respond, just like HD will have to respond. Ironically, one can only hope that Polaris’ vintage purchase (of Indian) will prompt HD to get going with a modern line-up.

        • @Hoyt: You wrote: “If the opened-up market due to free phone offers eventually converts x % of Apple owners to Droids or whatever, then Apple will need to respond, just like HD will have to respond.”

          I’m not so sure. You can get laptops for $300 on sale and Apple’s least expensive offering is $1000. But Apple isn’t responding by trying to compete at the low-end, where profit margins are too razor thin to pay for the kind of support and customer service that Apple is known for.

          Some PC buyers, after tiring of the lack of support and the finger pointing (It’s the OS, call Microsoft. It’s the video driver, call nVidia. It’s the computer, call HP.), will decide that they would rather pay more up front for Mac.

          “Ironically, one can only hope that Polaris’ vintage purchase (of Indian) will prompt HD to get going with a modern line-up.”

          Not going to happen. Most Harley riders are looking for “vintage” bike and engineering a modern bike that is competitive with the offerings from Japan, Italy, and Europe costs real money. Even when Harley had Buell, they vetoed the idea of a fully faired Buell because they didn’t want to risk head-to-head competition with the sport bike industry leaders.

        • Fred – I’m with you on the benefits of Apple. From my observation, they innovate while MS does not, unless they buy a company…someone mentioned MS in this thread. In that regard, there are parallels between MS and HD (buying Aermacchi, MV).

          Not gonna happen with HD? Not in the near term, unfortunately and perhaps never. It is hard not to jump to conclusions about their management, their product line arrogance, and their dealers. It may be impossible for them to even buy innovation (such as Motus) due to their mishandling of Buell. Even if their management gets a clue about diversity, their entrenched dealership network of only promoting & working on “real bikes” is probably the biggest challenge and most costly.

          EBR’s product is off to an amazing start with such a short time! They’ve nearly doubled the airbox volume while maintaining emissions/noise regs. Plus, the styling is so much better.

          How can EBR not be on Polaris’ radar next?

  17. Great comparison! Both companies have an unquestioning religious-like following that ends up polarizing their respective sectors. I find it impossible to have a decent conversation w/ admirers of these two companies, due to the outlandish claims they make, and the scorn they show for other similar products. That’s why there are plenty of HD & Apple haters out there.

    • I am an engineer by trade and have been since 1980. The first Apple computer that I owned was in 2008. I switched to Apple simply because they made a superior product and had a superior operating system. The mechanical quality of construction of Apple’s products is arguably the best in the computer and portable consumer electronics industry. Their OS, which is based on the Mach BSD kernel, has a better security model than Windows, has a more consistent UI, and has a lighter footprint. Any claims I make, I am willing to back up with citations and hard evidence. I’ve got three decades of experience with Apple’s competitors and three years with Apple, so I’m not entering this with a lack of knowledge and experience.

      • The difference between both companies is their approach to durability.

        Apple, probably more than any other producer in their sector, design their products to be obsolete in a very short period of time. The products are superior, but they are more expensive, don’t last and cannot be updated.

        HD, although primitive and low tech, make products programmed obsolescence free. They are built to last, be updated, modified and repaired as many times as needed.

        • “The products are superior, but they are more expensive,”

          Agreed.

          “don’t last and cannot be updated.”

          On that, I will have to disagree.

          On average, Apple’s products tend to have long lives. You’ll find plenty of people still using five year old iPods. I just fixed a young woman’s 8 year old Mac iBook laptop — and she’s still happy with it. The iPhones have had multiple, free, user-installed operating system upgrades, many adding significant new features. In my Mac Pro, I have upgraded the RAM from 2GB to 16GB and the internal disk storage from a single 320GB hard drive to four 1TB hard drives in an array. I’ve added a second DVD to it and added an eSATA RAID controller. In my MacBook, I’ve doubled the RAM and upgraded the hard drive twice. In my girlfriend’s Mac Mini, I’ve upgraded the RAM, hard drive, and optical drive.

          I demand reliability, serviceability, and upgradeability, especially for my computers, which I rely on in my profession.

        • I’ve got to agree with Fred M. on the upgrade friendliness of Apple products. I’m still enjoying my 1st generation iPhone 4 years after buying it. My phone is no longer included in the upgrade cycle, but the last firmware release has been solid and pretty much bug free.

          My boss got an HTC Hero that was on the verge obsolete when purchased, and never was able to upgrade firmware. The firmware on the phone was buggy as hell and never was made any better. From that perspective, Apple did a much better job.

          Granted, I paid $400 for my iPhone back in the day, but he paid something around $200 for his HTC (price after carrier subsidy). About a year later, he paid pretty much the same for an iPhone 4 and is much happier with it. So I’m not sure that Apple’s prices are uniformly higher.

  18. Just great. A conversation with responses posted about a communications company. I could have sworn I clicked on thekneeslider,com, a motorcycle blog. Wonder what I’ll find this morning at CNBC, maybe something about riding a two-wheeled thingy?

    • Don’t worry, just thought the company comparison was interesting and then the Apple crowd jumps in because they think I’m attacking Apple products instead of simply making a remark about what people are buying.

      As always, if a post isn’t interesting to someone, just move on to the next one.

      • I’m not part of “the Apple crowd,” “cult following,” or a ‘true believer.’ I’m an engineer with over three decades of experience who chose to purchase Apple products only very recently. I didn’t accuse you of attacking Apple or their products. I just said that I thought you were misinterpreting the survey.

        • “I’m an engineer with over three decades of experience ..”
          So am I. Ya’ know what: nobody cares!

          Know this:
          You can always tell an engineer, but not much!

        • I thought engineers weren’t supposed to use smart phones when they were driving the trains…

      • @kneeslider

        Be thankful you didn’t compare the marketing aspects of Honda or Suzuki to the Benihana chain and their covert attempts to convert steak eating H-D children to sushi munchers with the o-so- McD’s version Kabuki Kids.

  19. I find this post facinating. After much considered thought I have arrived yet again at the same conclusion as I always do after reading kneeslider….
    I’m going for a ride!
    Who’s in?

  20. Nevermind the haters, I think it’s an interesting comparison. The attitudes of Harley and Apple “fanboys” seem very similar superficially but of course every individual will have a different take on the reasons for it.

    In my personal case, it’s night and day between Apple and HD. Sure there are lots of Mac guys with IIGS’s from the 80’s in their basements, but they’ve long since replaced them as their everyday computer. You can’t fault HD for continuing to sell something that has made them a lot of money, but it’s hard not to fault the guys look down on those of us who have moved on to exciting new world of liquid cooling.

  21. If you mean that they’re both fashion items who’s owners have and unduly exaggerated opinion of their capabilities and an intrinsic incapacity to respect the capabilities of rival products then… umm… Yes!

    • Great summary for a lot of them. “A lot of them” is the bottom line, though…and, Apple has more “go” with their show than HD in terms of this article.

  22. This is all amazingly interesting but I have been waiting for over ten years for Polaris to bring out something besides competition for H-D. When are they going to make something that people who don’t want a heavy cruiser or bagger would like to ride? You can’t tell me that Victory isn’t capable of bringing out a light or middle weight bike at a decent price. There are plenty, I am sure, of people who would like to ride an American motorcycle who can’t afford ten to twenty thousand dollars for a large bike. I am still waiting and will probably continue to wait while riding my Yamaha.

  23. I use an iMac at my job as a magazine production editor — Mac has always been superior to PCs for desktop publishing. The Mac OS is God’s own operating system, warts and all. It works the way the human mind thinks, and, until recently, did all those functions automatically that PC users had to initiate using commands. PCs were built by geeks for geeks, whereas the Mac was designed from the ground up for the rest of us.

    On the other hand, I ride a 38-year-old English motorcycle that only last year got electronic ignition. I carry an old Razr cell phone and have no use for a smart phone. So I’m a Luddite who uses computers.

    What I like about The Kneeslider is the lively conversations that ensue whenever Paul posts an item about H-D or any product the readers are passionate about. We all have our points of view but we all learn something.

  24. This message is coming to you from a 7-year old G4 iMac (the up-turned ice cream bowl model). Longevity and upgrades? To compare (from a layman’s point of view) try loading Windows 7 on a PC that was designed to run Windows XP…

    But back to This Old Computer. It factory shipped with OSX 10.2, but was retailer supplied with 10.3 which I installed direct without having to install 10.2 first (remember the Windows 95 to 98 upgrade/reinstall fun?). I skipped 10.4 entirely and went to 10.5 (the last possible for the G4 processor). Did not lose one piece of data or custom setting. It is faster and more stable with 10.5 than the 10.3 it came with. Again, try running Windows 7 on an XP-native PC, skipping Vista along the way. Bets are it wouldn’t even load, let alone be running 100% error -free in less than an hour..

    The only hardware malfunction since new was the small circuit board which drives the display backlight failed… a minor fix. At that time I upgraded the RAM to 2G (when I bought it, 1G was the limit, but magically 4 years later I could double that). An Airport Extreme card was also added (only standard Airport was available when this iMac left the Apple factory), which gave faster online service than the original hardwired cable modem connection (same modem, just the AE card instead of a wire!).

    Of course my old iMac doesn’t run all the features an Intel-Mac can, but OSX 10.5 is smart enough to know those limits and not hang up trying to do something that the hardware/software can’t. Apple has not abandoned my old iMac and it’s non-current 10.5 OS, as I am still receiving Security Updates which do not incrementally drag performance to a crawl and introduce new instabilities like the security patches that finally killed the last PC I owned (Windows 95/98, remember?)

    Oh ya, I had to buy an iPod Nano because my “Classic” clickwheel iPod bit the dust. After 6 years.

    A succession of PC’s might have been cheaper, but I’ll take a computer that does what it’s supposed to without me needing to be a hardware/software/network specialist to avoid buying a new one every 2 years. In my experience, the myth that Apple products are not good value for the money because they quickly obsoleted by factory design is nonsense for average users.

    To draw on a two-wheel example voiced earlier, in the hands of an average rider, a Chinese scooter isn’t going to outlast a Vespa. Maybe that’s where Harley and Apple products are most similar… they are not short-term buys.

    If you “must” have the latest techno-gizmos, then doing it with Apple products WILL be expensive. But for us “average” users, Apple products are durable. Sometimes they are so appliance-like that you forget what an amazing piece of technology modern personal computers and portable electronics are.

    • “I’ll take a computer that does what it’s supposed to without me needing to be a hardware/software/network specialist to avoid buying a new one every 2 years.”

      That’s exactly the problem isn’t it? The majority of the population (not necessarily yourself) is using products they have no understanding of how those products work. The iPad touchscreen might as well be powered by magic. What happens when those products do finally crash? And Apples do crash, having crashed several myself.

      I’ll grant you that PC products can be buggy. But through troubleshooting my computers issues, I’ve learned basic computing diagnostic and repair skills. I have a better understanding of computers, and computer related things, like the Internet.

      It’s a larger, societal issue I’m getting at: we no longer understand how the world around us works. You don’t need to be a specialist, but at the least you should understand what is affecting and influencing your everyday life.

  25. P.S. Once I am finished with my old iMac G4, I’m told by a friend in the local Mac user group that there are actually Mac lovers who will pay me real money for it. And here I was going to toss it in the electronic recycle bin because after so many years it doesn’t owe me a dime…

  26. P.P.S. And my old iPod that quit working? I gave it to one of my 19-year-old daughter’s friends, and after some fiddling, he revived it. Seems the old ones are curiosities, “antiques” to the kids, kinda like old bikes for the two wheel crowd. Funny, they don’t seem to have the same regard for other MP3 players.

    • Absolute true story that still makes me laugh with a shake of the head…

      I have one of those original “stick of Wrigley’s gum” shaped iPods.

      It went through not only the wash cycle, but the dry cycle too. The split second that I turned it on, Pearl Jam’s “Alive” song was in mid-chorus…
      “O-oo, hey-yey-i-i,…..o-oo, I’m a-l-i-v-e…, I’m still alive! yeah, yeah-yeah!”

  27. It will be interesting to see what Harley does over the next few years. As many others have pointed out, Apple has invented product segments out of nothing. Harley has in the past done the same with branded merchandise. As of late, they have been coasting a bit. Their new offerings are remixes of their old offerings, and that’s a legitimate thing to do when your sales are growing, but Harley could do a lot to retain their aging demographic while also attracting new riders.

    Products like 3 wheelers, if made to be “cool” (ie there is a reason other than just less likely to tip over) , could actually have a lot of overlap between the oldies and the noobs. An entry level bike not marketed as a womens bike (ala the 883) would also be a smart move. I know plenty of guys in their 20s and 30s who would love a new Harley but can’t swing it.

  28. I recall when I bought an ipad touch. As soon as I plugged it in it requested that i spend 10$ to upgrade my OS.

    I spent the $10, but it’s the last apple product i’ll ever buy.

    I wont even touch a harley 😉

  29. B50 Jim’s comments says it all: “Polaris sees the possibilities. Harley-Davidson sees the bottom line. H-D isn’t going away soon, but it could very well find itself in a downward spiral and wondering what happened.”

    I couldn’t say it any better. When HD finds a new CEO with progressive thinking, then Harley will move into the future with confidence. As it is, it is all about the bottom line which has been Wandell M.O. I own Harleys (plural), but I now look at at other brands closely.

  31. Finally somebody did it, somebody bought Indian.

    In all honesty, this is the only brand name that can go toe to toe with Harley. Honda, Kawasaki, or Suzuki could have bought the name and portrayed themselves as restoring an American Classic. This isn’t a new idea, I read it in a motorcycling magazine 5+ years ago.

    The hard part is going to be actually designing a bike. The previous Indian bikes, didn’t look Indian. They looked like Harley’s with larger fenders. Even when they used them in T3 as the cop bikes, people thought they were Harley’s.

    That combined with production issues, killed Indian.

    Hopefully Polaris will use the Indian line and do something different. Let Harley and the others have the cruiser market right now.

    A smaller displacement, single cylinder/parallel twin would be a nice change; similar to the Buell Blast, and in line with the old Indian Scouts.

    • Indian is no longer a product. It’s nothing more than a name. The bikes are a Harley clone with a chief’s head in the logo and shrouded front fender. It will take a bit more than that to bump Harley off their throne

      • You’re absolutely right, but I think/hope Polaris is a smart enough company to not repeat the same mistake made by everyone else that has bought Indian. Jesse “The Body” Ventura included.

        There’s a bit of potential in the Indian brand, a strong racing heritage, some technical achievements, the name itself; Eventually somebody will pull something together.

        Maybe Polaris should hire Erik Buell to design an Indian?

        • OR……perhaps they should just slap the Indaian name onto the Polaris brand bikes. They are already innovative and have lots of momentum.
          What say you?

  32. The parellel twin little bike is what finisned off Indian originally, The Indian Chief is iconic, when someone says Indian, the Chief is what they visualise. The new Indians are a fine product and with the backing of Polaris they will do just fine.

    • yes, the parallel twins suffered from catastrophic (and fairly public) mechanical failures. By the time those bikes were built in ’49 and ’50 the original company that was Indian was pretty much gone since 1945. Maybe it was Clymer’s 50cc minibikes that did “Indian” in (even though they were very successful), certainly not the Velocette Thruxton Indians…

      A nice parallel twin in the manner of a W650 / 800 or a Bonneville would be a good direction that has plenty of classic appeal and not much of the “I’m really just a Harley” feel.

      Me? I’d rather buy a Harley (Sportster perhaps) than anything that has had an “Indian” badge on it (or a Kawasaki Drifter) since the late ’60s. I’m young and a Chief just not appeal to me in the least.

      -todd

  34. is it me or the comments for “Victory buys Indian” ends up on the “Apple vs HD” thread ?

  35. One, Nokia is still the largest cell phone maker.

    Two, When you compare Android to iPhone, you’re comparing apples to oranges. Android is an operating system. iPhone is hardware. Maybe there is more Android OS out the, but no Android hardware manufacturer makes more phones than Apple. And when you count iPad and iPod Touch, iOS is on nearly as many platforms.

    Stick to motorcycles, buddy. It’s your wheelhouse and you won’t come off sounding like a dweeb.

    • Take a minute to read the previous comments, especially this one.

      There are also a whole slew of related, in depth articles here. Very interesting reading.

      If you compare Apple iOS to Android OS, (I guess that would be the “apple” comparison) Apple is falling behind. I’m not sure about the “oranges.”

      But you missed the point of this article anyway, Apple makes a great product, I like them a lot, but everyone assumed their lead, whether focusing on smartphone hardware or OS, was insurmountable yet Android based smartphones are growing at astonishing rates, which is the Harley / Indian comparison I was alluding to.