Following up on yesterday’s accessible performance idea, let’s take a look at what Roland Sands has been doing. We’ve mentioned Roland before but readers keep sending reminders to look at his bikes. Actually, his bikes constantly rate high on our list of what might be called accessible performance customs.
Roland Sands, for those who aren’t aware was an AMA 250cc champion, so he knows about handling and performance. When he builds his custom V-twins, he avoids the typical stretched curbside ornaments and makes bikes that actually go fast. Lately, he’s been stressing handling a lot more with his RenStar and RSD Grunt. His website mentions him dragging his knee on the Grunt, within ten minutes of first taking it out, not what you get from your average V-twin custom.
The RenStar uses a Patrick Racing 1854cc Star V-twin, just the thing for huge power with low end grunt, plus an inverted fork, aluminum swingarm and rearsets instead of forward controls.
We could use a lot more of this type of custom, maybe the stretched chopper guys will start to get the hint.
Links: Roland Sands Design
C. J. Luke, III says
I don’t pretend to be a motorcycle designer but this motorcycle doesn’t seem to fit the profile that you described in the previous post. The wheel base seems to be too long; the rake seems to be excessive; the braking capability seems to be lacking (note only one disk up front); the exhaust has two distinct drawbacks: seems to be straight pipes (way too loud, even for a track day there are noise limits); I wouldn’t want to ride that bike more than a few minutes for fear of cooking the inside of my right thigh.
If you are going to make a “sport bike” with a V-Twin, then make a sport bike. Short wheel base(55 inches), 24 degree rake, massive front brakes, and good ground clearance. Oh yea….with something less than deafening exhaust noise and heat….just my thoughts.
kneeslider says
The one brake up front on the RenStar (top phpto) is a 320mm Performance Machine piece with PM caliper, should work pretty well, though I agree the pipes are obviously a loud custom setup, while the Grunt (bottom photo) has twin discs up front. As I said, these are “customs” and have a lot of design features you would expect from that label, an everyday bike would be more refined.
The point I was making with these bikes is taking a big V-twin and making lots of power and still getting the knee dragging handling. Maybe our old term, “sport chopper” would be better?
C.J. Luke says
Don’t get me wrong…I am with you 100%. I would love to see several ‘start-up’ companied in the U.S. trying to get into the ‘sport bike’ market. Not the standard ‘inline 4’ 600cc or 1000cc types but bikes with a new approach…V twins, Diesel (especially diesel). Something that is streetable but can also do well on track days. When I was at bike week in Daytona, I saw a bunch of custom ‘choppers’. Some of them were absolute works of art, but none of them seemed to be very concerned with rideability or handling. As a matter of fact, there were quite a few that I wouldn’t have tried to ride on the open road…even if you gave it to me. Take that artistic approach and design talent and and turn it to producing a ‘sport bike’ that is affordable and fun to ride…on the street or the track.
hoyt says
I’m surprised Roland hasn’t built a sportbike chassis around a big twin by now, considering his background, resources & access. (Maybe one is in the works.)
The Yamaha’s tidy gear-driven drivetrain package is much better than the aftermarket big twins. The smaller size can only help in building a sportbike chassis around the big twins.
“Hello Victory” — people on this site have mentioned you before….there’s a market for a bike that has the physical size somewhere between an MT-01 and a Buell, using YOUR engine. If your gear-driven primary would be smaller this could be done and the market would grow. (hint: revenue from crate motors and your cafe/sport big twin models).
The accessible performance idea is right-on. Once you break the ton, how much faster do you want to go on the street before you run the risk of jail time? Seriously. Bike on the side of the road and you in the back of the pokey.
Point? I’m not suggesting that the hyper bikes shouldn’t be sold or used. But, if you are NOT using the hyper bike for some track days, why not buy a bike that takes power from the top end and add it to the bottom end ? Until the round engine is used or some other power plant that has both bottom and top-end power, riders have a decision to make.
I’d rather have the power for 25-30 mph turns instead of the high-strung, narrow power band. The narrow power band is more likely to launch you into the other lane due to its smaller margin for error.
Richard stated, ‘ “If ‘the average rider may actually be able to ride quicker laps [with an Accessible High Performance bike] than with a full on race replica’ then that rider needs to work harder at developing his/her motorcycling skills. ” ‘ I can’t agree with that comment 100%. A rider can spend time riding the in-line 4’s and become a better rider, true. But wouldn’t the same amount of time spent riding a twin sportbike make that rider an even better rider if a twin suits that rider more than an inline 4?
In other words, the rider is extending his/her skills on the twin vs. learning new skills for the in-line 4.
todd says
This is interesting. I don’t get it. If you have a fine handling chassis why would you need to accellerate so hard out of the corners? I like lightweight bikes with lightweight motors. You can carry so much speed into and through turns (especially on the street) that you don’t need over-kill brakes (heavy, inertia, expensive, less “feel” or feedback) or a whole lot of torque. SMany tight canyon corners are smooth enough where there is no need to downshift even on the peakiest of motors and the rush and adrenal pumping sound of a quick revving motor will make you feel more like a racer than any large slow revving machine ever will.
I think there are two schools of riding going on here: cruising, and sport. If I want to have a relaxed ride through twisty roads or long distances I ride my R75/5. It has the sort of torque you guys are blathering about but it had to be designed as a pig because of all that torque. If I want to feel sporty or improve my riding skills I can ride my GB500 (and there are more appropriate bikes for this as well). Because it doesn’t have ANY power the chassis is lightweight and it transitions extrememly well and it doesn’t need huge brakes because I hardly ever use them. If I want to feel even sportier I have my 90cc twin Yamaha that I can redline all I want and scrape parts all within most posted speed limits. Then there’s my XR…
There is no perfect bike for all situations.
-todd
kneeslider says
The more motorcycles you have, the more application specific each one can be, but the best all purpose bike will be different for each rider, the riding they do and what flavor tastes best.
It’s the same in the auto world, what’s more fun or “best” for running through the twisties and more enjoyable driving every day, a 505hp Z06 Corvette or a Mazda Miata? Opinions vary. The guy that loves the V8 grunt and rumble looks at a Miata and doesn’t see the appeal. The Miata driver, likes to hear his engine wind up while he zips around the turns and thinks the Vette is overkill. Who’s right?
With bikes, though, the big V-twins have been so long associated with Harleys, cruisers and choppers, the handling guys have a hard time thinking they could ever turn a corner. With a proper frame they do pretty well and with a bit of work from some new designs, they could do even better.
The appeal (to me and quite a few others I think) is the simple roll on guts of a big V-twin. You don’t feel you have to be always on edge, always trying to be in the perfect gear, looking for the perfect line, it’s easier to relax when you’re riding and still have the the acceleration and handling when you want it.
If you watch even the most committed sportbike rider, you’ll find they don’t ride at nine tenths all the time, they’re usually riding far below where their bike works best. That’s the idea of a big inch twin in a frame that handles, it works better in the world where most riders actually ride.
Those who think the V-twin is too much compromise and too little performance won’t change their minds any time soon, same could be said for the V-twin riders and their view of things. Like I said, opinions vary.
C.J. Luke says
Well, I could be wrong here, but I think what the KneeSlider is saying (and what I am saying) is the motorcycle world doesn’t have the equivilent of the Ford/Chevy/etc… If we had a access to a reasonably priced V Twin sport bike with all of the ‘after market’ goodies that are available to the auto community, it would significantly expand the world of ‘do it yourselfers’ in the motorcycle community. In my mind, that would make for a lot more individuality, innovation, and just plain fun. Right now…the only equivilant of the ‘hot rodders’ is the custom chopper gang. I would like to see that expanded to a type of motorcycle that is “fun” to ride.
hoyt says
no question that light, small capacity bikes are a lot of fun. I wrote the comment above in the context of a preferred bike. In addition, the subject was “Accessible Performance” – big torque vs. race ready
The big twin sport bike concept is somewhat just emerging (aside from Guzzi & BMW who have been doing it for some time). The engines available now are heavy because they have been put in cruisers, i.e. no emphasis on weight considerations.
If the big twin sportbike market segment grows, then someone will start thinking more about the weight of the engine while maintaining the big torque and reliability; and consequently these bikes will become lighter too. Think about the weight loss throughout the GSXR years. The difference between the current model and an early model might be close to 100 lbs.
Suzuki has already begun thinking about distinguishing their cruiser engine with the M109R. That motor would be fun in a sportbike chassis.
coho says
I “get” the big twin thing (1100cc boxer in the driveway), but 1854cc? The powerplant alone probably weighs as much as Todd’s GB500. How about slimming that down a bit?
Dodgy says
Aren’t we really talking about the MT01 “Torque Sports” bike? Big slow revving V-Twin in a real sportsbike setup (mostly R1 bits), or doesn’t it count because it’s Japanese?
It’s interesting that they compare that to others in its ‘class’, whatever that is, when I wonder, given riders with similar abilities and a real world combination of roads etc. whether the MT01, R1 or the cruiser thay got the engine from would come out on top… after a month?
todd says
OK kneeslider asked for it, LS1 V8 in a miata…
http://www.fergfab.com/gallery/LS1-V8-miata-conversion?&page=1
Also just do a quick search on how many V8 miatas are being built. I think this (a ford v8 in a miata) is as close as you can get to a modern day shelby cobra. Ford and Mazda are already in cahoots anyway just like when shelby held hands with Ace and Ford. Very similar idea to a Buell.
Also, C.J. Luke mentioned a “chevy” type of motorcycle that can be put together and modified from a catalog. A neighbor of mine, when I was in high school, was building a Big American 90 degree V-Twin with a slice off a V8. I don’t know if he ever finished it but the motors are still around. They use components from a 350 V8 so basically you have enough parts to build 4 motors…
http://www.supervee.com/index.html
-todd
Marco says
Where can I get a RSD Grunt? Rolling Chassie, frame or kit? Is it street legal!?
Huggy says
Kneeslider…I think this fits the bill for you:
http://www.engmore.com/home.html
115hp S&S engine, 177kg’s with oil but without gas and I think a wheelbase of 1370mm…
Hugo
kneeslider says
Hugo,
Please read yesterday’s post.