Remember the Brimstone Quadracycle we covered a short while ago? Hot Rod magazine has a nice article about it in the February 2010 issue just out. The reason I want to draw your attention to it is their lead photo, it shows the quad taking a turn to the left with the bars turned opposite, just like the “push left, go left” you know from riding a regular bike. Joe Skonecki kept the bike feel all the way through when he built this. The writers in Hot Rod say that’s opposite intuition, but of course, they’re used to using one of those big round things called a “steering wheel.” How quaint! Better keep those guys off the bikes.
Zak says
Hmmm, don’t think I like it. With 2 wheels the “push left, go left” steering feels natural because of the leaning involved. On a vehicle that stays flat while cornering I would think it WOULD be counterintuitive. JMHO
I think they need to let me ride it so I can be sure though >:)
Tin Man 2 says
Even riding my brothers new CanAM Spyder the 1st time, I got off the trike thinking it should have had a steering wheel instead of bars. Same with this Bad Boy, give it some back support and a steering wheel and it would be a better ride. Riding a Bike,counter steering is intuative, most never think of it, or have even heard the term. IMHO this reverse steering would never make it to market do to legal considerations. Im sure it would be a thrill to ride and Id love to try it out.
Billy Pilgrim says
A lot of pointless stuff makes it to the covers of magazines.
nortley says
I don’t have any trouble switching steering modes when going between a bike and the four wheeler, the urge for self preservation makes the changeover pretty automatic. But why I write here is to perhaps point out the unsaid obvious. While the QuadRod is without any doubt or argument cool, neat, hot, sexy, fun looking, fast, faster looking and will make a great posing lounge, it is by no stretch a motorcycle. It has from 50% to 100% too many wheels. Not that I’m complaining. I love bikes but am always open to a gander at something completely different.
todd says
Regardless of their claim, this is still opposite of how a motorcycle steers.
On a motorcycle, even if you’re pushing the bars to the left to go left you are still turning the wheel and the bars to the left. You just don’t see the bars turn because you aren’t turning it very far at all. What you are doing is resisting the front wheel’s natural tendency to steer straight. There is a very brief period when you initiate your turn (if you counter steer) that you are steering off the opposite direction but it soon steers back towards the turn once the input forces the bike to lean in. I’ve never riden any quads that steer opposite.
The steering on this “Quad Rod” is downright dangerous.
-todd
GenWaylaid says
What’s missing is a mechanism to make the seat, tank, and bars tilt into the turn so the steering setup makes sense. A tilting seat would be very impressive, and it would make it easier to hold on during hard maneuvering. I’ve seen quads and trikes where the whole vehicle leans, but never one where only the rider leans. Since street tires aren’t likely to give more than 1.0g on the skidpad, a tilt range of +/- 45 degrees would be just about right.
The tricky part of it all would be working out what the rider’s leaning and handlebar inputs actually mean for steering. You could write a thesis on how to translate motorcycle physics into car physics.
rafe03 says
I think whar is being missed here is that it is NOT a motorcycle! Bikes work one way, other “things” work their own way. Take a wheel or 2 off, then it’s a bike
rafe03
kim says
That steering layout makes no sense at all; switching from one of my solo bikes to the sidecar bike and back gives me no trouble whatsoever. Seeing that this oversize quad has everything but the seat and the handlebar in common with a car, there’s no reason whatsoever to ‘mimick’ a solo bike’s behaviour. Kneeslider, remember to keep us posted when the first lawsuit is filed.
Paulinator says
I had a tube-framed VW dune-buggy when I was young and stupid. I threw a front wheel and it still drove fine….so guess it became my first motorcycle?
An open trike or open quad only differ in symantics, whereas an enclosed trike is called a T-rex and an enclosed quad is called a Ford.
I’d like to see this field of “experts” keep one of these un-motorcycles in your gun sights on a road course. Please add rain, sleet and sand to the equation.
Tin Man 2 says
Did everyone read the write up? This Quad steers backwards, No other vehicle on the market does this, 2 wheel or 4. Turn the bars left and it goes right, counter intuative on any vehicle. I just want us to be arguing about the same thing!!
j says
Quadracycle…handlebar and 4 wheels. Does this mean a steering wheel and two wheels make it a motor-car?!? I would get killed in two seconds on this thing.
I’m kinda with Billy Pilgrim on this one.
FREEMAN says
This reminds me of that scene from the Cars movie.
Doc: “I’ll put it simple. If you goin’ hard enough left, you’ll find yourself turnin’ right.”
McQueen: “Ooo, right. That makes perfect sense. Turn right to go left. Yes! Thank you! Or should I say,”No thank you”? Because in Opposite World, maybe that really means, “Thank you”! Tuh, crazy grandpa car. What an idiot!”
Heheh
mark says
$300,000.00!!!!!!????
D-Man says
They are trying too hard
Grant says
HMm re “February 2010 issue just out.” It’s still December 2009 here in New Zealand! So 3 months into the future we get reverse steering 4 wheel motorcycles? only in America I guess.
Hughlysses says
This reminds me of a “project bike” built by the staff of a mini-bike magazine I subscribed to when I was a kid. Just for fun, they pieced together a front wheel drive, rear wheel steering mini-bike, complete with reverse steering linkage. IIRC the bike proved completely unrideable. The best efforts would get about 10 feet before crashing, and those who spent any time on it reported side effects like dizziness and nausea afterwards.
Yea, I think I’ll pass on this one…
Paul says
This story is proof positive that it is money, not good ideas, that gets projects built. The countersteering thing is ridiculous – a motorcycle never has its bars turned to the right while the vehicle is turning to the left. Motorcyclists do countersteer by initiating the turn with a handlebar rotation in the opposite direction, but this is only to initiate the turn – after the motorcycle is leaning, the bars are turned in the same direction as the motorcycle (although only slightly). The initial countersteering actually produces a turn in the wrong direction – it is only after the motorcycle is leaned that it starts to turn in the intended direction.
I used to race quads on an offroad truck track (lots of turns and jumps) and I never had any trouble figuring out the steering after getting off my motorcycle and onto the quad. I have ridden the same motocross tracks, back-to-back, on a dirtbike and a quad and never noticed anything counterintuitive. (Incidentally, the turning system used in this quadricycle will also make shifting your body weight to the inside of the turn difficult – and shifting your body is essential to safe cornering.)
I seriously doubt that anyone who was serious about riding, as opposed to posing, would buy one of these. If anyone actually tries to ride it fast it will be highside city.
See V. Cossalter’s excellent book, ‘Motorcycle Dynamics’, or ‘Motorcyle Design and Technology’ by G. Cocco if you want a good (physics-based) explanation of the science of motorcycle steering.
Steve says
I remember getting run over by the back wheels of a quad when I had to bail out. That would hurt on this!
Jlc says
Many sports cars can get grater than 1G on a skidpad, how high of G’s before you are losing control of steering and throttle?
And yes, I would volunteer to test ride to find out, but would wear ATGATT in doing so!
mujambee says
This counter steering makes perfect sense to me: when taking a turn at fast speed on a quad, you tend to lean your own body to the inside of the turn, so your weight helps balance. Having the bars turn right when the vehicle is turning left makes it easier on the rider.
Paul: A bike’s front wheel is always pointing “out” of the turn when the bike is leaning at some speed. Gyroscopic precession is what really control the leaning of your bike, and it is completely counter-intuitive. I’m sorry I can’t explain it better in english; you have to see it working to really believe. And if you don’t believe me, just take a look at this:
http://www.zastavki.com/pictures/1440×900/2009/Motocycles_Other_Bikes_Drift_012388_.jpg
James says
Todd you are so far of base about how a motorcycle steers, you should read something about the geometry of motorcycle steering and inputs before you make comments like that. I would recomend something from Kevin Cameron, the man is a genius and also knows how to make the message understandable. As far as this THING steering in the manner it has been made to steer, is totally wrong, for the simple reason that it does not LEAN when turned. The reason motorcycles go left when you push left is a very indepth topic,to make it short when you push left you break the centrifugal force keeping the bike upright. it then falls toward the oposite direction the wheel is pointed. Todd the next time you are leaned over in a corner and you think you are steering in the direction of the turn,try this ,if the turn is a left hander put in some deliberate right handelbar force, like you are turning the wheel to the left an see what happens!!!!! I hope Paul lets this post stand, I have tried to be informative no sarcastic.
Paulinator says
I don’t know if riding a bike is intuitive. After watching my kids wobble a lot and crash a bit before mastering the skill, I’d have to say it’s learned. It is deeply engrained, though. I rented a stand-up jet ski for a half hour…and swam after it for 29 minutes because I couldn’t adapt to the unusual steering-head angle.
For every mile of road there are two miles of ditches…so If the reverse-steering concept is not workable and beneficial then Darwin will trim that ugly branch quickly. Why would Brimstone go to market with the product if it didn’t work – and it was so fundamentally screwed up? Paul, that’s got to be worth a write-up.
Dorzok says
regardless if it’s intuitive, natural, or bike like, the steering of this thing might just work. look at the chick in the pic. she’s sterring right to go left. because there’s a bar instead of a wheel she’s forced to lean her body into the corner. i’ve ridden the CanAm Spider on four separate occasions and one thing that bugged me was the force trying to push me in the opposite direction i was turning. of course to compensate, i’d lean. but this outstretched my outside arm and unlike an offroad ATV you don’t slide the rear and countersteer through a fast conrner which then brings that outside ar in closer to your body position. this opposite steering really puts you in the same position of an ATV while cornering.
joe says
I have a couple of 4 wheel vehicles in my shed garage, I was calling them car’s but if I put a pair of handlebars on instead of a steering wheel,seems I will be able to call them motorycles.
Paulinator says
…only if you take a wheel off each one, as well.
todd says
James, you don’t seriously believe that a wheel is pointing right when the bike is turning left?!?! I’m an engineer in the vehicle industry and I’ve been riding a couple decades now. Whenever I am turning left my bars are pointed left. Yes, I do apply some pressure to the left to BRIEFLY turn the wheel in the opposite direction. But, since the wheel is momentarily turned to the right the bike will want to also turn to the right and fall over to the left – initiating the left hand turn lean. As soon as you and the bike are leaned in to counteract the centrifugal force you immediately steer the wheel into the turn – but not much.
Be sure you know what you are talking about before you suggest someone else doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I’d also suggest you re-read those articles you mentioned.
-todd
frozen prairie says
Jeepers, this countersteer thing is sure controversial ! But Todd is correct, the countersteer effect is only to initiate the turn.
In a car, when you steer to the right the body wants to lean to the left. Same thing applies to a bike – a slight push on the left end of the handlebar (aka steering right) makes the bike lean/fall to the left, into the turn. After that you must “catch” the bike from continuing to fall inwards by steering left. Try it on a bicycle, you’ll see this is true.
Imagine your motorcycle’s wheels are the flat ends of two cones. During a steady state turn, the tips of these cones meet at a point at the inside of the turn (below the roadway, because you’re leaned over). To follow each other around the turn these cones must have the same taper and the same center point. (Like a tapered roller bearing)
Of course, it is possible to “steer-right-go-left” around a corner by using enough throttle to cause wheelspin-induced oversteer (speedway bike style) but that is a different kettle of fish, and cars do that too, on dirt ovals.
mujambee says
@todd, frozen prairie: I don’t want to start an argument, but you both are wrong. When riding at slow speeds, that may be right; but when you get some speed, things start going funny. The reason for this is a gyroscopic effect called precession. I can’t explain it in english, but wikipedia has a good explanation of this effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession Look at the section named “Torque induced” ; pay special attention to the figure to the right, which depicts exactly what happens on a running bike when you apply some torque to the handlebars.
Dorzok says
hey, right you are and in agreement with @todd and frozen prairie. torque induced precission explains WHY we must exert a force to the left in order to turn right. but it is only momentary to initiate the lean. once you are at the appropriate lean the front wheel is indeed turned in the same direction of the turn; which works with the profile of the tire. to upright the bike, torque induced precission requires you to apply a force in the opposite diection and hence cause the wheel and bike to tip up. watch some motoGP races where a camera is mounted to view the front tire. you can clearly see the tire is turned into the turn once the appropriate lean is achieved.
kneeslider says
@ Dorzok: “torque induced precission?”
There is gyroscopic precession, which is how the roll into the turn is initiated.
Here’s a quick way to see gyroscopic precession, as I described in another comment:
Try this (really cool) experiment, get a bicycle wheel and replace the axle with a longer rod you can hold with your hands. With a stationary wheel held in front of you, the wheel turns exactly as you move your hands, move your right hand forward and the wheel turns to the left. Now have someone spin the wheel in the forward direction, top of the wheel spinning away from you. Push your right hand forward (or pull your left hand back) what happens is that the wheel will tilt over to the right, that’s gyroscopic precession, the reaction to the force exerted on the wheel shows up ahead (in the direction of the spin) of where it was applied. That’s why, in this case, a push right, yields a turn right with the bike leaning to the right.
If you have never done this with a bicycle wheel, I strongly urge you to do so as soon as you get a chance, it’s very neat.
Here’s the best part, to quickly get upright and out of a turn, we counter steer, which means steering into the turn!
Read Tony Foale, Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design, chapter 4 and associated appendix.
MARK says
over made.
but check out,roadstercycle.com
have a V8 andV6 reverse trike.
kneeslider says
@ MARK: We covered that quite a while ago here. I don’t know about any V6 or V8 versions, but they do have HD V-Twin and Yamaha Vmax V4 versions.
MARK says
Yes,I see.But if you look on far left side of the roadstercycle page,second from the bottom.You will see”recent projects”.Hott stuff there.V6 V8 two up front trikes.Look like 1930’s cars.
MARK says
Find it?