Every now and then, a post on The Kneeslider misses the point, quite a few readers seem to misunderstand what was meant and the post about high tech parts is a good illustration.
In that post the focus was on the potentially serious, or at least inconvenient, issue of electronic parts failing years after a motorcycle had gone out of production. While manufacturers provide replacements for a period of time, most do not do so indefinitely. Parts bikes may be available for a while, but sooner or later, the part will disappear. Then what? It’s not the same as the usual mechanical repair where a bit of thought and backyard engineering can get it fixed, when electronic controls are sufficiently advanced, failure requires new knowledge and skills or repairs will not happen. Is that a problem? Or is it an opportunity?
Comments on the article were interesting. Some seemed to think I was implying electronic controls were failure prone, while others concluded I must be technophobic, wishing for a simpler time from the past. The conclusion often seemed to be I was generally pessimistic about the future of newer bikes as they aged. None of those conclusions are true nor were they the point of the post.
I made a further comment which I’ll quote here:
… It’s not a matter of how easy or difficult it is to fix something with the computer or electronic controls or even how reliable those electronics are. They are reliable and easy to fix plus they offer huge performance advantages. The problem is whether the part to swap will be there when you need it, an entirely different issue. We are just starting to get to the point where the earlier versions of motor vehicles with electronic and computer controls are becoming old enough that parts might be an issue. If we have enough open source replacements or ingenious work arounds, we’re fine. I’m just bringing attention to the need to think along these lines. I’d rather be in control of the process of fixing instead of hoping someone, somewhere is going to bail me out of a tight spot if something fails. I think most of you would, too. (emphasis added)
The problem of high tech parts becoming unavailable is an opportunity for anyone willing to think about it and take action. The more people there are with a problem, the bigger the opportunity for someone who can solve it.
Mechanical parts are less of a problem with the growing ability to manufacture parts on demand with CNC machine tools, especially with decreasing costs putting those tools in the hands of smaller companies and individuals.
Recreating proprietary electronic controls will be another challenge, not insurmountable, but not something the average garage mechanic or motorcycle owner is going to do easily with current technology. If the controls can be cloned or manufactured on an open source platform, which I believe will likely be possible, the problem is far less of an issue, but we’re not there yet. Some guys can do it now, but it’s a skill set still a bit uncommon.
Again, this could be a nice opportunity for a small company or individual to develop these capabilities. Even before the parts disappear, those parts may become quite pricey. If you can offer something for less, something that can be set up for many engines and motorcycle models, you might have something.
Some of you may have dealt with this already. If you have an example of how you ran into a non-existent, out of production part and came up with a substitute, let us know what you did. I think quite a few folks might find it interesting.
If this is not an issue because it’s easily fixed, at the very least, it’s a marketing problem because some of us have missed the news, perhaps I’m unaware of the vast resources already out there to solve this problem. If you know those resources exist, point them out here. If you’re a company offering those capabilities, tell us your story. I think more than a few of us would like to know what’s out there.
Jim says
This was the same conversation we had when electronic controls first came into use. The main argument was that you can see mechanical parts and hold them in your hand; if you needed to reproduce one, you could do it by copying the broken part or reverse engineering. With electronic controls, it was a total mystery. You can’t see electrons or discern how they did their job, and if the part failed there was no way to duplicate it. The same goes for digital controls. Unless the computers and associated bits are in popular bikes and justify the cost of reproducing them for the aftermarket, there will be lots of orphan bikes in the future. The best thing to do is buy new digital-control parts while they’re available and store them for the day they’re needed. It will cost a bundle but if you want to keep the bike running that’s the only way.
The truth is, the manufacturers are in the business of selling new bikes, not keeping old crocks on the road. They supply parts only because they have to. They’d rather that we junk our rides when they fail and buy new ones. They’re not nostalgic. It’s a simple equation; selling new bikes makes lots of money for them. Keeping old bikes running doesn’t make so much. What do you think they’d rather do?
nortley says
The opportunity to solve this problem may be some sort of universal blank module that would use vehicle specific wiring adapters and software. I couldn’t make one on my lathe, though.
WillyP says
Hmmm. I thought the answer was pretty clear in the post about high tech
The answer is that it does not matter whether the part is electronic or mechanical. Some people can produce a mechanical part with ease, others an electronic part. If someone is willing to go through all the trouble of casting and machining and fitting, say, a piston, or crankcase, soldering up a board, or using a micro squirt should be tit.
Can’t make one on your lathe? OK, Do you have a kitchen table? A soldering iron? For some people a blown piston might mean the end of the machine, whereas a blown ‘black box’ is just an opportunity for an upgrade. In fact, I know of people who have replace black boxes and carburetors and such with even more high tech aftermarket controllers and fuel injection and turbo chargers when the old stuff was working perfectly. No, they don’t make black boxes on a lathe, but kitchen tables and soldering irons are much more common anyway.
WillyP says
“… but not something the average garage mechanic or motorcycle owner is going to do easily with current technology…”
The average mechanic or owner can’t make a piston or crankshaft, either.
“If the controls can be cloned or manufactured on an open source platform…”
Already done.
“Some guys can do it now, but it’s a skill set still a bit uncommon.”
I agree one hundred percent, but this has always been true, nothing has changed, really. However it doesn’t apply any more to electronics than it does mechanical parts.
Runnin' Blue says
My current ride is a 1980 CX500 (basically because I’m broke), the CDI quit recently, I replaced it with a (more or less) universal fit replacement from the Czech Republic that has a programmable advance curve as one advantage.
There are already people making some of the black boxes, I think this will become more common in the future..
http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm
fast eddie says
Grate thoughts Mr. Kneslider. Why don’t you adjust your parts for sale format to align with your thinking. I.E. parts for “dirt trackers” , “cafe racers” “Trails’, and so on.
right now you list parts by Mfg only. Change is good. Nesecity is the mother of invention
we all need mothers , I’ll be watching F E
Tinker says
I bought a used, very used, 1978 Honda CB400A, the early Automatic version of the ordinary CB400. You can still get gasket sets, You can still get rebuilt carbs, and you can get even the biggest point of failure, the electronic ignition. What you cant get is modern lighting, IE, anything brighter than a sealed beam headlight. If you want that, you have to replace the headlight bucket, and the trim ring and every thing else. Not that the parts are expensive but by the time you pull all that wiring out of the original bucket, and push it back through the new one, your wiring being antiquish, will be unreliable as hell. (Not that THAT was the reason I eventually got ride of it, but the constant worry that I’d be somewhere far from home and the weak, unique-to-the-CB400A electrics would pack it in, and leave me stranded was a worry that I couldn’t take after a while.) And the CB400A was not all that old, it came out during my (early) riding career, and I was somewhat curious about it.
The real problem in keeping it running was STARTING it. If you parked it for a couple of days, it would refuse to start, and as I now live in an apartment, I can’t put the battery on a battery tender to keep it charged. I replaced the plugs on a MONTHLY basis, and it still wouldn’t start reliably after sitting TWO DAYS. The fact that cranking it for a long time was the method of inducing the complete and utter failure of the electronic ignition, was the part that got to me. The fact that a CB400A could not be bump started (Automatic, remember) made it imperative that one kept it running/starting properly. I finally decided that the engine had gone to that great junk yard in the sky.
Tom Lyons says
Most opportunities stem from problems.
A problem for people exist, and there’s an opportunity to solve it.
I don’t think it’s insurmountable to do it. But it will require some new stuff to be made and programmed. Much of the older computerized stuff was very limited, and old technology, and proms were “burned” with the programs, and were not “flashed” like things are today.
You can’t re-program the old proms, and they were most likely 8-bit embedded controllers with very small memory, with hard coding in obsolete code on obsolete proms.
What is needed for this,such as others have already stated, is some form of newer controller that is more “universal” and can be hooked-up and coded using today’s technologies.
I once worked in the controls industry, and I can tell you that not all sensors are the same either. They might have varying output types, so it’s not all that standardized, especially with the sensors made 20-25 years ago. It could get more complicated than it might immediately appear.
However, if there’s a will, there’s a way, and no doubt the ways will be found.
To my way of thinking, a good carburetor can come close to injection for riding results, and that might be the easier route for the induction side. If that can be overcome with a carb, then the electronic ignition part of it could probably be an easier task to replace, even with something that might be already out there.
Mule says
Parts sealed in plastic or molded or part of a prepackaged “You ain’t get this this apart without damage” type assemblies give me the most trouble. How about a black box thats built “On the kitchen table” at a factory in Japan or China and then the whole mess is sealed with a pour of black epoxy? You can’t begin to even know what’s in there!
Factories are not obligated to make any spare parts ever. They do it to keep people thinking there unit will be maintainable. When the model is replaced or doesn’t sell any more, they stop making spares. Buy an obscure model or brand and this whole topic takes on real meaning.
JP says
for those who can, an opportunity. Oregon Motorcycle Parts (www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com) makes some really good replacement units for older bikes. Being as the tech has improved over the years, the parts are better working, and more reliable than those they are replacing.
Jon P says
I’ve a degree in electronic engineering an I work in the electronics industry.
With NO standardisation between models, let alone manufacturers, the on board computer is a black box, even to a professional such as myself. There’s no money to be made in making custom electronic parts simply because every bike would need to be custom made, making them incrediby expensive and out of most peoples reach, that’s IF they can be custom made, but without a working example it’s going to be impossible to replicate the control codes.
Who knows, in the future we may see a change in the way the bike manufacturers manage their black boxes, but until we do, the modern bike is going to join the pletherer of other modern day trappings that end up in the landfill.
Jim says
I worked for an independent auto-repair garage from 1976-82, fixing lots of older cars. Although they were easy to repair, my boss made a very good living fixing them, and paid me well, too. Most drivers didn’t know how to fix their machines even in the days of points, plugs & condensers, when a box of tools and a parts store were all they needed. Most riders then knew enough about their bikes to get into trouble. Even when the parts weren’t back ordered to England they generally screwed it up. Nothing changes. However, digital technology is far easier to create and duplicate than even a simple set of points — no dedicated manufacturing processes needed, just some standard components and the knowhow to program them. Not exactly a kitchen table and soldering iron, but not metal fabrication, either. So someone probably will have the skill to make those components, given the right parameters. I don’t pretend to fully understand how a computer control operates, but I’m sure some clever 15-year-old can duplicate one, probably by illegally downloading a factory’s software. That’s another issue.
kim says
No reason to worry about the manufacturers not stocking all the black boxes for bikes that are more than 20 years old. If the demand is there, and an electronic bit can be made for the right price, it’ll be on the market. It’ll probably be working the same way as it does with conventional parts for – say – Yamaha XS650’s, Triumph Bonnevilles and Norton Commandos; the parts and the knowledge will be limited to the most popular brands and models.
Speaking of the above, lots of them now run with electronic ignitions, and the Brits have been upgraded with primary belts and Japanese carbs, just like my 1950s Nimbus has a good deal of improved parts too, like the electronic charging relay (hidden inside an old stock casing).
JustJoe says
I have to disagree with Jon P. The lookup tables for the ECU in my Speed Triple, for example, are readily available online, and I can see no reason they could not put into an open source ECU. The aftermarket created an alternative ECU for my WR 250 about 15 minutes after the WR was available at the dealer. It’s not nearly as big a mystery as, say, reverse engineering an old board track racer from a couple of photos and a crank case casting…which someone recently did.
Clever programmers are able to clone systems many times more complex than the maps needed to make a motorcycle function. Guys with good chops have come up with alternate operating systems for devices I use professionally that added features the manufacturer should have, but never did…these are the guys who you will be calling on when it’s 2030 and you want to restore that moldy old BMW 1000RR that’s been hanging in the barn since you were a kid.
Many modern electronics end up being scrapped because the replacements are far superior. Does anyone carry a PDA with them anymore? Or actually want to repair a rear projection TV? On the other hand, old men will always yearn for the vehicles of their youth, and find a way to bring them back to life.
'37 Chief says
My local Honda dealer has a sign in the service dept that reads ” we are not obligated to work on any motorcycle over 7 years old”. The parts dept has the same outlook for parts availabliity. My computer guy says that Microsoft will soon stop supporting Windows XP. I had to persuade the local Dodge dealer to fix my ’85 Dodge pickup, and he only agreed to after I convinced him that I had already collected all the parts needed to do the repair. This is the age we live in and have to deal with. In a way, you can’t blame them. The motorcycle companies have been turning out better, more reliable products to a more sophisticated, demanding market. Fuel injection, liquid cooling, electronic controls, CNC machining, computerized technology, advanced marketing and quality control have given us a wide variety of motorcycles to choose from with stock performance that we didn’t even dream of only a few years ago. The factories need to do so to compete, but they still need to sell new bikes to survive. I completely understand.
Luckily, the computer has come to the aid of restorers/collectors/vintage bike owners with a great worldwide resource in Ebay, plus hundreds of other dedicated websites that are easily accessible. My newest bike is an ’84 GPZ1100, currently under restoration. I would probably be unable, or at least it would be extremely difficult, to obtain the parts I need to complete the project if this technology wasn’t available. When my ’78 Yamaha 750 Special’s voltage regulator went bad, I was able to buy a NOS part on Ebay, works perfect.
Went to a garage sale a few weeks ago, the guy had a beautiful ’99 Kawasaki Ninja 1100, low miles, asking $3000. Not a bad deal for a bike that will approach 200 miles an hour. Wishing for a simpler time from the past? maybe. Willing to deal with it? Probably not.
Hawk says
Oh my …. How this discussion reminds me of my old BSA days with electrics made by Lucas (The prince of darkness),
When, not if, the part failed, the fix usually came in a box code named B-O-S-C-H.
Today, I’m more worried about parts for my pacemaker ….
todd says
Just because something is hard to find does not mean it is unavailable. I used to have to call every dealership I could find a phone number for to get a part. Often the parts guy would know of a guy who knew a guy who had a stash of the parts you needed. Other times I could call up the members of the club. Now I can plug in part numbers on the internet, browse eBay or post on a forum for parts. Sure, there are plenty of stories to tell of “unobtainable” parts before the internet age.
Like I said in my response to the previous version of this topic, if you’re riding something so rare that there are none left on the face of the earth, you could probably afford to have it remanufactured. Otherwise it should be in a museum.
-todd
Derek Larsen says
Yanno, all of these fancy electronic controls had to be invented in the first place, a process that involved a lot of trial-and-error. Most ECU controlled engines weren’t built from scratch, but adapted to existing designs. As long as the knowledge required to understand how these devices work doesn’t go anywhere, then the bikes they function on will be saved from the landfill, even if the factory doesn’t make the parts anymore. That’s the beautiful thing about software–it’s not a part, just the instructions to make it function properly.
todd says
One problem I see that might make things more challenging is that it is becoming increasingly illegal to retrofit non-OEM parts – especially if they are part of or affect the emissions system. Add to that the prospect of regular inspections and there might be a problem with user-accessible emission controls. Some bikes today allow you to access the computer with a USB port to change fuel maps and timing curves. Do you think the EPA will allow that to happen much longer?
-todd
Scotduke says
I got the point of the article first time round, I think. All this new technology on new generation vehicles does make them easy to drive. However old generation vehicles are simpler and ultimately, easier to repair in many respects. I’ve often wondered what it would be like to have a simple but well designed old generation motorcycle, say an XT500, Z650 or MKI, II, III Guzzi Le Mans but built with the benefits of high quality modern materials and to the modern higher tolerances. Such a motorcycle would be superior to the original in terms of quality and yet simple to repair and run.
Jim says
Most Lucas systems failed because owners cut, twisted and taped the harness in so many places the system didn’t have a chance. As with all things English, Lucas systems demanded proper care and respect. OK, so the light switch in my ’73 MGB sprung apart one night and I had to lash the wires together. I didn’t say Lucas was perfect. The cure for most ills on old Britbikes is spelled “Boyer”.
Tropical Ice Cube says
I see two points in this discussion: today, I can buy a Boyer electronic ignition for any ’60 brit iron – And I, too, can buy a special chip for most any brand new SUV out there, be it for performance or fuel economy; I am this confident that the aftermarket electronics automotive industry will be supplying… according to the demand.
And there comes the second point, (not high-jacking the thread here, not at all): what bike will you buy/keep/look for in the coming years, ’cause she’ll be THE machine that’s so famous parts are still re-fabricated? Including the chips? Do not name here the Brough Superior SS100 or the Vincent Series C of the 2000′, I am sure tons of threads on that topic flourish everywhere on the net.
Cheers 🙂
WillyP says
Mule, the ‘kitchen table’ thing was not about factory parts, or even aftermarket manufactured parts… Repairing a potted part is not likely going to happen, but making a new one might. If a guy can go into his basement and turn out a new crank for some old Ariel or whatever, some guy can sit down at his kitchen table and assemble a new ignition box, or maybe assemble a kit with his old connectors. If some one can hire a foundry to cast a crankcase to join up two cylinders to make a v-twin from two single, someone can hire an electronics firm to build some electronics to run a motor.
So, what might be a worse case scenario? Lets say a bike that caught on fire, and the wiring harness and all the electronics are burnt toast. A little machine work and some injectors from a similar bike fit. New sensors, and a micro squirt get the bike running. The abs and the traction control might need some custom electronics, or something from another bike might work, even if it means changing sensors and servos to get the right values. Getting that fancy led dash to work might be a bit tougher, but then we are not talking about a restoration, so grab an aftermarket unit or head off to the junkyard.
Now, will the guy who built that v-twin, or even the guy that built the v-twelve be able to do all this electronic wizardry? Maybe, maybe not, it’s quite an accomplishment to build a v-twin or a v-twelve and electronics is a whole ‘nother field. But Aniket knew nothing about casting or machining when he started his project. He learned everything he did because he was highly motivated. I think he could have taught himself electronics if he had really had to to accomplish what he set out to do. Lots of people design and build electronics for a hobby, and it’s safe to say many of them ride bikes.
Parts availability, or lack thereof is nothing new. And yes it has been and always will be both a problem and an opportunity. In reality, the players have changed but the game has not.
bob miller says
I get it, my 1971 Superglide has a shop manual that is almost all drawings of parts and about 3/4 of an inch thick. My 2010 Ultraglide has a shop manual about 3 inches thick and 39 years from now will any of the new hightec parts/stuff be around to fix this HD? Unlike all the basic parts of the Superglide that 39 years and beyond will still be out there. I think not now that you mention it.
Grant says
I de-potted an ignition module once, to see if I could figure out how to bread-board a replacement, as a new one from the dealership was upwards of $300, and I needed two. (First generation RX7. Not a bike, I know, but…). Making a functional equivalent on my kitchen table was beyond my skill set, mainly because the bits were so freaking tiny I couldn’ t tell what the little things were! I ended up going to a local guy who specialized in RX7s, and bought a couple of “Used but tested good” ignitors for the short term for about $40 apiece, and then found a couple more for even cheaper (ebay) and kept them in the glove box. “Cloning” or “emulating” electronic parts is a challenge I don’t have the time or resources to take on, but obviously there are folks out there who would love to tackle projects like that. Perhaps the bigger problem is connecting the person who can do it with the person that needs it.
Mule says
Willy, I understand the points you’ve made but totally disagree. Yes, there’s probably a guy or two out there in the entire world that could cast up crankcases or forge a crank at home, but that would be about all there is. Mechanical repairs usually take some understanding realized by looking at the object to be repaired and with common tools the average guy can muddle through. Can the same “average guy” even read a schematic? The repair or redesign of a black box is an entiely different set of skills. Completely different! And I would venture to say that the people that posess these skills could in most cases give a Rat’s about fixing a motorcycle.
Now if you went on IEEE forum and posed a hypothetical question about redesigning a black box, it would be world’s longest forum thread most likely. Or if you’re an electrical engineer you most likely have a different view of the world we live in than the common man anyway. My dad was an electrical engineer (MIT) and build our first television and had a record cutting turn table (not even sure what you called it?). I would have to say he was one of maybe 2-3 guys in our town/city that could do those things and that would compare to today’s task of repairing or building your own black box. Swapping a used one from another bike and changing the connectors is one thing that should be possible for most mechanical types. Making your own box? No way.
akumabito says
There are already products available that are pretty much universal and 100% programmable to fit pretty much whatever engine..
MegaSquirt aftermarket electronic fuel injection computer
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
MegaJolt aftermarket electronic ignition computer
http://www.g2.nu/chris/mini/megajolt.php
With a bit of shopping around there are many more possibilities, up to traction control, anti-lock brakes, etc.. just needs a little Googling 😉
Jim says
The crux of the issue here is that constructing and programing a box for any particular application is beyond the skills of almost everyone. It’s highly complex and very technical — each machine has different parameters of operation, and unless you know those parameters and can build and then program the box, you’re dead in the water. The more I think about it, the more I believe most bikes will be scrapped when their digital controls pack it in, if there are no replacements available. The cost to make new ones will be prohibitive, and most bikes won’t be “classic” enough to justify spending the cash to make them run again. I just bought a new carburetor and used rebored cylinder and piston for my ’72 BSA B50, and along with gaskets I spent exactly as much as I paid for the bike in the first place. Considering inflation I spent way less for the parts, but I had to decide whether to spend the money to keep an old crock running. It was worth it to me because I have a long-term relationship with the bike, but if it weren’t more “special” to me I probably would have sold it for parts and bought something else. Will tomorrow’s riders have that much dedication to their old bikes?
akaaccount says
“Recreating proprietary electronic controls will be another challenge, not insurmountable, but not something the average garage mechanic or motorcycle owner is going to do easily with current technology.”
Yeah, with current technology. How many high tech bikes with complex electronics are completely out of production at this point? If parts are scarce for a bike with modern fuel injection, ECU, etc at this point, the bike must have been junk to start with.
As part scarcity begins to actually become a problem, skills will shift to encompass this kind of work.
WillyP says
Mule, I understand where you are coming from. I bet if your dad was the biker of the future, and he had some old ZX1400 he could not get an electronic ‘black box’ for, he could make one.
Yes it is a different skill set, but there are plenty of people out there doing it. Why wouldn’t some of them either be interested in bikes, or be willing to help out a biker for the right price? Old school mechanics tend to think electronics is majik or dark arts, but as we move forward that is changing. I am sure this same topic came up when someone first invented hydraulic brakes or automatic transmissions or laser guided missiles.
I would not try to un-pot something and copy it… (again 😉 ) But a study of what it is supposed to do, what it is connected to, what inputs it reads, and knowing how a bike operates, one could come up with a devices that performs the operations needed. Perhaps an Arduino could be used for anything the Microquirt doesn’t. Then just write some simple programming for it to do whatever needs to be done.
No, not everybody could do this! That I agree! But can everybody machine a crank or cast a case… Heck no! And that is my whole point, some people can machine, some can paint some cast, and others can cobble up a board full of electronic majic. It different, but still if you really want to do it, or want it done, the info or people willing to do it are out there. You won’t find the electronic guy down at your local Harley shop, anymore than you would expect to find old world knowledge of casting and forging on a sportbike forum. You need to find the right place to look for answers, they are out there.
“As part scarcity begins to actually become a problem, skills will shift to encompass this kind of work.” Right!
Mule says
“Then just write some simple programming”…..? In the computer-cubicle-software-tech Industry world, that may be possible. But you just leap-frogged a few tech levels up the ladder without passing “GO” and collecting your software degree for the man on the street.
Also, a comment was made about the factories allowing this. Huh? What I mean is this. First, Joe Softwware fixes an unavailable box. Then he improves it and makes a programmable “Universal” box. Then nobody buys the factory boxes anymore. Boxes become available in the Auto section at Walmart where you can buy cheap boxes made for $6.00 in Viet Nam. Hey wait a minute…that doesn’t sound so bad I guess!
dellortodiagonale says
First of all let me say that this is a wonderful website, and everybody here says something interesting. This discussion, for instance, is great.
Personally I think that this time the key matter is unfortunately kind of philosophical.
You can’t even imagine that a normal guy dedicates so much of his life to rebuild an old bike: learning to replicate mechanical parts, learning to make electronic spares at home and so on. It takes years of your spare time (which is generally scarce), money, infinite passion etc. Not everybody can be a hero. In a few years the average guys left who still love old machinery (and young people generally don’t) will like to drive or to ride it with reasonable ease, till they can find parts without waiting too long and paying too much (true collectors are another matter, of course).
Our beloved wrecks will probably die because many of us will no more be able to find somebody skilled and equipped enough to help us to keep them on the road, provided we are still allowed to.
Keep in mind that current culture, and the lion’s share of riders and drivers too, want something NEW and actually prevent you from saving the life of anything old.
Will a very small minority of cognoscenti be enough to feed a specialized market of countless dedicated spares? If not, I suspect that in the near future having a piston replaced will still be a little easier than having an obscure electronic contraption replaced.
If you are completely self-sufficient, great (but how many people are really completely self-sufficient?). If you, like me, are not, you will face a hard time, and it’s a shame.
In the last twenty five years I have painstakingly restored a few cars, when you could still find a good, old mechanic when you needed one, and when in Italy spares for fourty years old cars could be found and sometimes were still on the shelf; I’m not sure I could do it today (and God knows if I would like it).
Cheers.
Claudio
Mike H says
Well, another electronics engineer here. I’ve pondered this question myself. I think carburetted bikes which are just using electronics for ignition don’t present much problem. The programmable Ignitech ignition already mentioned is adaptable to a very wide range of bikes & it seems likely that this unit or others like it will be viable into the future,
However, even basic fuel injection, without the growing complexities of such things as ABS, traction control, adaptive ‘trim’ etc. presents a much bigger challenge. Most ECUs & their software are proprietary, unique to a brand & often individual models. Open source units like the MegaSquirt can be used/adapted, but the injection/ignition maps etc. may need to be developed from scratch – a far more complicated & lengthy exercise than a simple ignition advance curve or advance/TPS map. And with higher compression/higher performance engines the degree of tuning precision is increasing – faster processors, more variables & many more map ‘points’. In some cases, where proprietary maps can be extracted, for example by TuneBoy or TuneEcu, data points could be translated across manually to something like a MegaSquirt. Time consuming but doable. Of course once done once for a particular model the data files can be readily shared at least.
So, when factory spares become unavailable for modern bikes, there likely will be options, but alongside the often greater mechanical/material technology complexity, the electronics is going to add a whole new dimension to keeping that 20xx ‘classic’ going. Certainly not like my mate’s ’56 Velocette anyway!
SteveD says
A general consensus is that most of these parts could be back-engineered/programmed onto a more generic chip but that most folks couldn’t do it. To be honest, how many folks can really work on the mechanical parts of their bikes anymore? (the folks on this list are probably not a good sample of the general group of motorcycle owners.) With so many non-mechanical riders, more techs have sprung up. I suspect that the same will happen with electronics and the aftermarket will develop these services. A company will go looking for out of production electronic parts, get the diagrams/code from the manufacturer (for a price), and program general purpose chips to serve their intended purpose.
BTW, if something like a solar flare takes out everything electrical in the US, we’ll all have bigger problems than our bikes.
woolyhead says
Had I been on my antique “air-cooled” Suzuki I would be enjoying good company and a lamb dinner today….although 250 miles away. Alas I was driving the “water_cooled” Mustang…..which now needs a 3 thousand dollar engine due to a stuck thermostat halway there…….isn’t high-tech wonderful ?
Decline says
Am I the only one now picturing the stereotype burly Harley rider pulling his bike up to a home electronic shop and standing grounded at an ESD workstation while some bottle glasses nerd half his age tries to explain a socket error to him?
In the future, gone will be the greasy forgotten parts strewn workshop heavy with smoke and smelling of weld, instead we will look with envy at the photos people post of their pristine low particle workshops.
rohorn says
Unless you are an old dog that can’t learn new tricks and/or suffer from “if I can’t do it, then neither can you” syndrome (as seen above), then this is a great opportunity to learn something:
Pick up a copy of Paul Sherz’s “Practical Electronics for Inventors”.
Then get familiar with Picaxe microcontrollers (dirt cheap with good support), Arduino (very popular with huge support community) or Parallax “Basic Stamp” (slow & expensive, but the best support out there) or Parallax Propeller (very powerful, cheap, arcane language, will be around forever, and similarly supported).
Then check out what “SparkFun” sells. If that place doesn’t give you ideas, then get a brain scan.
Then do a little research on “RepRap” DIY open source rapid prototyping. Those goofy plastic whatsits will be far easier to make than any metal part.
I’m enthused about the future AND technology. Maybe I’m not old enough to be afraid of it. I’m not out of of new ideas yet.
kneeslider says
rohorn, all of those items you mention are definitely neat and well worth learning no matter what the eventual application. The workshop I’m currently building is going to have a large electronic component to it, due to my own background, but the microcontroller and rapid prototype areas are just amazing. Anyone really into technical stuff should give it a shot. As prices come down and the support community continues to grow, I think we’ll see some impressive home brew work coming out of garages and basements all over the place.
AL says
I see your point, but it is not the electroics I worry about. A few weeks back I told a friend that in 20 years time, it will be easier to restore a Lamborghini than a Toyota. He of course, did not agree, and argued that the Toyota was more common and that part therefor would be easier avaleble. My pint was that things that are man made, is easier to fix/restore, than things made by robots or has to be made in huge quantitys. I.e a carbonfibre fender woul be relativly easy to make with simple tools, but a BMW fender made by simle thermoplastic would take $100K of tooling to replicat. And more important, The Lambos engine has a machined crank, wet piston liners etc, while any new mass production engines is made to be replaced, notoverhauled. Even modern bikes has relativly little electronics, and most parts, like injectors, temp sensors can, with small adjustments be carried over from any bike or car engine. The controllbox can be replaced by programmable after market parts. The metal parts on the other hand, is getting thinner and lighter due to weightsaving and cost of production, they are often made with advanced casting methods, and has been designed and dimensioned with the help of advanced computer analyses. How do maschine a wafer thin part, og how do you replicate a complicated part when there is no room for over dimensioning?
Mule says
Listening to all the possibilities is really exciting, but has anyone listing all the options ever actually done it? Basically, the difference between theory and reality. If someone has made repairs to TCI units, fabbed up their own triggers, designed and built a digital box, etc and actually put them on a bike that’s continued to stay in service, that would be interesting to hear about which I think was the original theme of this topic. There are websites that can explain how easy it is to do anything you can imagine. What about someone who’s actually done it?
Rohorn, the beauty of youth is that you don’t have to back up your ideas with experience or facts. That’s called politics. After you get to your 20’s people start to expect results and you have to back it up.
SteveD says
Hey Mule,
I think the factories might sell the specs because they really can’t stop folks from back engineering them. At least this way they get some money.
In general I understand what you’re saying about making it work. We’ll see. A lot depends on how many of the new biker types will fix their bikes and how many will treat them as disposable. You need a critical mass for a market. OTOH, the whole world can produce a critical mass faster than any country can, and that’s what the market is theses days. You might even have Americans doing this because there won’t be any other kind of jobs. 😉
rohorn says
Mule,
This isn’t theoretical optimism based on theoretical solutions, it is reality. I’d point to some people who have done it already and share their methods (not to replace extinct hardware, but to make something vastly better – that is also reality), but, seriously, if you can’t find it, then you’re hopeless. Then there’s the fact that what is being discussed is a theoretical problem – I don’t see any braindead bikes for sale because the CPU and/or sensors are unavailable.
Designed & built my first motorcycle from (mostly) scratch 20 years ago – when I was still in my 20’s. It’s posted here somewhere. I’m not in my 20’s anymore – nor am I vainly attempting to stay young by re-living my 20’s over and over again. I’m about to leave my 40’s – I’m still not interested in looking back – and none of my projects are looking back, either.
Paul,
Your enthusiasm and optimism is valuable. Just got a PropScope a few weeks ago – so much to learn – so much to do with it! Thanks.
dellortodiagonale says
Rohorn,
I think that you are right. I am actually an old dog, as far as bikes are concerned.
But, you see, I am an interventional cardiologist (which is my first passion), and to be up to date with current medical technology is quite demanding and absorbs most energies and time I can dedicate to learning and experimenting.
So I would simply like riding my old bike, and enjoying fixing it, provided it’s non too difficult or too time-consuming. As I said, not everybody can be a hero, and my bikes commitment is of necessity limited. Should I feel unsuited? I hope not.
And, by the way, I don’t suffer from “if I can’t do it, then neither can you†syndrome. If I can’t, I am happy if you can do it for me.
Cheers.
Claudio
rohorn says
Claudio,
I am fortunate to have friends who collect,restore, and ride old motorcycles – I understand what you are saying very well, to a point.
I’m also fortunate to own a small lathe/mill machine. It is in the kitchen – yes, my wife is a saint. It wasn’t cheap, by my standards. And it doesn’t run itself. It takes a good amount of experience and knowledge to make good parts. Some would say that it requires a lot of school, etc.. – it doesn’t. But lots of motorcycle hobby workshops have them – I don’t see any FUD about how machining is an expensive and time consuming skill not worth doing. If you want to make the parts, well, that’s what you do.
And that’s pretty much where I see digital electronics. Learning it is no longer solely the realm of brutally expensive textbooks and a full time education. There is a small yet booming digital hobbyist market and community – with some of it being waaaay beyond blinking LEDs – check out the “DIY Drones” stuff some time. They are doing that for fun as well.
And that’s what I see in the original post – optimism for the future, the value of knowledge, and the satisfaction that can bring rather than another provocation for online chestbeating about the satisfaction ignorance allegedly brings from those passing FUD as wisdom.
Jon Hutchison says
We see several examples of solid state electronics being used in old street and dirt bike ignitions with good results. Replacement of breaker/coils seems fairly generic, so maybe there is hope here for future restorations on current bikes. With dirt bikes we are seeing after market computer controllers to modify injection/spark maps and a couple of after market throttle bodies that are said to address the harshess of present fuel injection systems. No reason to think that we won’t see non OEM computer controls, etc. The hot rod set has a bunch of controllers and injection systems, too.
Marvin says
@ Jim, I’m fairly sure some of todays riders will look after their bikes like you did and some will scrap them like lots did back in the day. My bikes tend to be things from the 80s and if I had been in your position with a 72 BSA I would have had the parts on ebay in an instant and bought something like a early GSX-R. Of course in twenty years time some young whipper snapper will walk through my garage and pour distain on my bikes before saying “why don’t you get rid of all this junk and buy a decent classic like a Hyosung 1200cc nottodistantfuturebike at least you can still get parts for them cause they are from Korea”. He will then wander off amazed that my bikes are covered in brittle copper wires when his laser ignition plugs are controlled by a bluetooth 5000 generation wireless box (bought from ebay and sent from kurdistan) that he can program with some open source software he downloaded from mongolia after getting the hotted up settings from an italian on a forum.
Tom says
Sure, smart folk with enough budget can just re-manufacture what they need.
Or not.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/12/us/for-parts-nasa-boldly-goes-on-ebay.html
Tom says
Seriously, I’m excited about all this. I’d love to get together with some of you positive cats and a brand new EFI, ABS, throttle-by-wire, V-TEC, DCT equipped, EURO-3 compliant VFR1200 that had ALL of the electronics stripped out of it. Then we could see if we could make everything work like factory-new again – without using any factory parts.
Marvin says
@tom
that’s not going to be the challenge in 25 years is it? Some things will have to work better as our expectations rise, some things will never work again and we wont bother to fix them, some things will be changed just for fashion, but if you want we can meet up in 2035 with a barn find and make it sing again maybe something a bit more likely to be a classic than a stodgy old tourer would make our jobs easier drop me a line around 2030 and I’ll start looking for 1198 or a fireblade.
Handsome Matt says
Here’s a thought:
Create a generic CDI box that could then be flash mapped with certain specs.
Make it robust, and easy to operate (similar to the performance tuners like Bully Dog, etc). Then offer it as an alternative to discontinued factory CDIs or those bikes whose systems are unreliable.
It would be great to even include performance or economy options as well.
Just my $0.02
MTGR says
This has happened in other high tech industries. In the oilfield, for example, an entire industry of replacement and upgrade parts have been developed for electronic Measurement While Drilling (MWD) components that the original manufacturers no longer supply. The basics of those systems is de-militarized cruise-missile guidance electronics so clearly even some highly specialized components can be reverse engineered by smart companies.
The only problem is the expense involved. Who is going to pay a room full of highly talented electronic engineers to reverse or re-engineer these parts and supply them the expensive base parts to produce these replacements? In the oilfield these systems can sell for 100s of thousands so the cost is worth it, but with the average cost of a bike part and diversity involved I doubt anyone could make it work. And I doubt the demand will allow a volume-based profit as with most computer equipment suppliers.
So you are likely back to trying to source used parts yourself and make the best of it.
gildasd says
I visited a company that does the same for forklift elevators… Yes those crappy little liquid gas or electric palette movers. It seems ridiculous untill you visit their 1000m2 plus reverse engineering workshop… All modern, all clean and making a killing. They even redo headsets and cranks for small diesel engines. I gave them my CV 😉
Slacker says
Man this is a problem that I’m dealing with big time right now. The electrics in my ’79 CB750 pretty much all need to be replaced. I can get a decent Reg/Rec from Oregon Motorcycle Parts, and a Dyna ignition system that will beat the pants off the OEM system… but I am S.O.L. for a well built and reliable rotor/stator. I’m literally at the point where I’m considering rebuilding one myself. I’ve got a spare motor (trying to stay ahead of the coming parts apocalypse) and I believe that rotor is in better condition, so I’m going to install that while I rebuild the original. I work at a shop that fabricates machines for manufacturing, so I’ve got the tools. I’ve just never wrapped a coil before. Hope I can manage.