Michael Czysz is planning to publicly unveil the MotoCzysz C1 factory racebike at the 2006 Red Bull USGP, July 21-23. Deposits for the first 50 production bikes will also be taken on the MotoCzysz website, starting at midnight, July 23rd. Asking price is expected to be $100,000+. What the “production bike” will be exactly, isn’t completely clear.
According to a new and lengthy article in the August Cycle World, speculation of potential sponsorships include Michelin and the Ultimate Fighting Championship (nothing is signed) for competition in MotoGP, late this season! Can that be true? If so, Michael Czysz has managed to pull off an extraordinary feat by conceiving, designing and building a racebike from scratch for the purpose of competition at the ultimate level of the sport.
The proof of concept engine in the test mule, seen in all previous coverage, has been replaced by a brand new engine, still designed with twin counter rotating crankshafts, mounted longitudinally in the bike for the purpose of maximum reduction in frontal area. The engine has triple overhead cams due to the narrow angle V4 configuration (twin exhaust cams). Intake ports are to the center. The engine utilizes a right angle drive to convert engine rotation to the front drive sprocket for the final chain drive.
The cylinders and head are cast as a single piece, eliminating head gaskets and sealing problems, valve seats can be machined with access straight through the cylinder bores. Engine prototypes were made with a rapid casting process that dramatically speeds production from computer design to finished piece enabling quick changes as necessary.
To go from zero to MotoGP competition with an entirely new design is a tremendous achievement. If an entirely U.S. made racebike makes it to the grid anytime soon, we’ll all be cheering. Go Michael!
Link: MotoCzysz
The Kneeslider: Comments from Michael Czysz
The Kneeslider: MotoCzysz Update
C. J. Luke, III says
OMG! I would so love to see this come to fruition. I am so frustrated with the fact that builders in the U.S.A. are completely ignoring the ‘Sport Bike’ market. When you look at Triumph and see what they have accomplished since re-starting that company, especially considering their new Daytona 675. We have the technology and the skill sets…we just don’t seem to have the desire to make anything other than “choppers”.
Jeff says
So, if they get UFC sponsership, is Chuck Liddell going to rough up the other riders before the race?
Stacey says
Here’s your American sportbike!
http://www.fischer1.com/BETA/PAGE.html
Jason says
Looks like they took the screen play from Silver Dream and are making it a reality. Hope he succeeds and wakes up all the other potential American builders.
coho says
Go Michael, indeed. Even if it’s a DNF, just getting a bike on the grid this year would be an astonishing accomplishment.
So, when can I pick up my Czysz sport-tourer? Will there be a yellow one?
C. J. Luke, III says
Thanks for the Link Stacy…I was excited about the Fischer until I read the specs page 🙁
hp 79@ 9000 RPM
torque 52@ 7500 RPM
647cc liquid-cooled 90-degree V-twin
I am not sure how this can compete with the current crop of sport bikes from a marketing standpoint.
In my mind it should be all about building a “mid range” sport bike with that is for the street rider…I think what Triumph did with the Daytona 675 is the way to go…get away from the 4 cylinder engines that need 10,000 plus to make 40+ ft.lbs. of torque but don’t forsake the possibility of being a winner at track day. Keep in mind that the lower the rpm limit is, the higher the torque will need to be in order to “keep up” with the inline 4’s
Dodgy says
Sorry Stacey, did you notice the last time the page was updated… I think the Fischer’s a dead duck.
I really like some of Czyxz’s ideas, but I’m not to sure about the bevel drive with (hopefully) 200+ Hp… Although the benefit of such a narrow frontal profile may well balance the losses?
And could I be right that it must have a pretty long wheelbase? Maybe not a problem because of the low cornering effort?
And why the twin spring rear? Just looks like engineering for the sake of being different to me.
JoeKing says
At the risk of injecting some reality…I’d really like to hear from someone who ACTUALLY is seriously buying one of these..WHY they would spend $100K+ over $68K for the Ducati..or buy both?
While Mr. Czysz is obviously a great self-promoter, what exactly is he offering but HIS vision? Have ANY of his “revolutionary”(?) ideas been judged under the harsh reality of a race or even a stopwatch? Does anyone doubt they would not be (much) faster on a stock R1?
To compare this bike or designer to Britten insults a man who PROVED his theory ON the track before marketing..BIG difference. From what I have read, all the testers were EXTREMELY generous in giving the bike much compensation for it’s state of developement ..yet Mr. Czysz feels his work warrants consideration (& price) as if it were a proven GP contender..it is definately not one…& I’d wager will NEVER be even close.
If I might be so cruel as to remind Mr. Czysy that EVEN mighty Honda failed miserably when they attempted to “revolutionize’ GP racing with the NR500. 5 years from now this bike will be dismissed for what it was… a silly dream of a rich architect with a big ego, nothing more.
coho says
Or, given the opportunity to prove itself, on the track and (hopefully) on the street, HIS vision might BE revolutionary. Or at least work well enough to podium a time or two. In 5 years “Czysz” and “Britten” might be justly spoken in the same sentence. We just don’t know yet. I hope Mr. Czysz succeeds, that would be great. At least he’s giving it a shot. Let him fail (or go beat him yourself) before you write him – and his out of the ordinary bike – off.
Remember, “not much faster” is still faster. It only takes a tiny fraction of a second to win.
hoyt says
Joe – what were you stating about “optimism” in your posts against environmental scientists ? [see kneeslider’s topic on oil]. Looks like you are quite the pessimist in your post above.
“Does anyone doubt they would not be (much) faster on a stock R1?”
Much faster? Maybe with the C1 fork mated to the R1 is what I’ve read.
“To compare this bike or designer to Britten insults a man…”
Who is comparing Czysz to Britten? I mentioned the 2 in the context of creating documentaries for educational motorcycle programming, but nowhere did I see a comparison of the two.
“If I might be so cruel as to remind Mr. Czysy that EVEN mighty Honda failed miserably …”
The Britten V1000 was an evolutionary result of setbacks and successes. People probably would pay top dollar for some earlier versions of Britten’s work.
If he succeeds by your measure or not…these ideas will generate other ideas and advance the design and manufacture of motorcycles.
“a silly dream of a rich architect …” Silly? dream? oh boo-hoo, Joe
aaron says
of course, a britten cost “upward of $100,000” ten years ago, when the american dollar was worth a lot more against most currencies. (I’m not sure how it’s fared against the NZ $) – importing a similar bike today (or paying for imported materials with us $) would likely add to the cost of inflation…
not to mention that a haga’s wsb spec yamaha r7 of a few years ago was worth over $200,000 (I was told this by a team member at the brands hatch round in 2000) a race bike is infinately more expensive than a road bike. go ask at your dealer for a ducati 999R6, and once they were done laughing, they’d inform you that you couldn’t afford it, then complement the desmoseidici you rode in on… and I’m only using “production bike based racing” as examples here – prototypes cost waaaayyyy more.
the fischer could be cool, but a toyota truck is about as american as this… (or maybe more!) a motor from south korea? well, revtec powertrains have made inroads into the chopper market, so you never know what people will embrace as american.
I don’t think this bike is seriously being called a gp contender – it’s a testbed for things to come. 800cc bikes next year, remember.
aaron says
oops, one more thing for joeking: honda’s development of the first 4 stroke grand prix bike in 10 or 15 years (the nr500) may have been unsuccesful in it’s own right, but do you think the trickle down technology had anything to do with honda’s domination in other classes of racing later on? (rc30?)
or that it may have had something to do with building the the best bike in the field when 4 strokes returned to grand prix racing?
hoyt says
I’ve read and re-read the criticism from James Parker (RATZ prototype designer)about the C1. He raises good points about the gearing robbing power.
Parker also rightly questioned whether or not some of the “problems” Czysz is addressing are significant enough to warrant the engineering involved. Is his engine design a Chinese chariott? Probably wouldn’t go that far….especially since it is still very young.
Shock criticism is worthless. Questioning ideas objectively is progress.
hoyt says
i have aaron’s posting syndrome …
I would like to clarify the reference to a chinese chariot…it should state a “south pointing chinese chariot”. Some think this may have been one of the 1st uses of differential gearing. An example of ideas generating other ideas.
One of the points in a ‘Make’ magazine article several months ago about the South Pointing Chinese Chariot stated that all of the engineering that went into this device may not have been necessary. Other ways could have a similar result…..
The C1 is and will be a success in many ways for the simple fact that it is causing talented engineers everywhere to re-eaxamine the basic and complex mechanical and building principles.
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/03/lego_south_pointing_chariot.html
Tom says
If I had $100,000 to throw away, I’d have someone custom make me something that would be truly unique.
Or I can buy a Buell for under 10 grand and be the proud owner of an American sport-bike that will actually be on the track at Laguna Seca (not sitting in a tent looking pretty).
Are there 50 people out there rich enough and stupid enough to buy one of these things? Sadly, there probably are. PT Barnum nailed it all those years ago.
JoeKing says
Gentlemen
I have no problem with someone having the initiative (& bankroll) to design & build his interpretation of a racebike.. good for him. But, lets not delude ourselves here..this bike is closer to OCC, than MotoGP.
My problem lies in the..arrogance..of someone with NO provenance, just because he can afford to, walk into the MotoGP paddock & as much as say to the best designers & engineers in motorcyling..”You have it wrong”…THIS is how you do it. It is so..AMERICAN…. No wonder why we are held in such contenpt around the world. Can you imagine walking into the Yankee’s dugout during the World Series & saying..”Put me in..I’ll hit one..? Then why should Czysy think he can race in MotoGP..what’s the difference?
MotoGP is the pinnacle. Amateurs have no place being there with half-baked..UNPROVEN..pie-in-the-sky dreams. Let him..EARN.. his place in the paddock like everybody else there has…not be there because he bought his way in.
hoyt says
yeah, $100k is a lot of money. Which is more insane, C1 price or $200k for a Matt Hotch rigid? Even if dropping $100k was relative to the masses paying $500.00 for something, its a stupid amount of money.
—
Unproven? How much time were the 4 stroke GP bikes given before having to give it a go on raceday whether they were ready or not? How much time are the teams able to dedicate to the 800 cc platform? Suzuki seems to be still sorting things out with the current engine size.
Suzuki reigns in Superbike (by a longshot in AMA) with a proven engine configuration, yet they race with an unproven platform in GP. [best wishes to John Hopkins]
Isn’t a big part of Moto GP THE place to develop unproven tech? Anything from electronics to tires.
here’s to additional:
American bikes in Superbike form and/or Moto GP,
Dutch diesel Superbikes and/or MotoGP,
Korean Superbikes/MotoGP,
German Superbikes/MotoGP, etc.
kneeslider says
JoeKing:
Hmm …
“someone who ACTUALLY is seriously buying one of these..WHY they would spend $100K+ over $68K for the Ducati..or buy both?”
Maybe they want to own an exclusive motorcycle and help support the company that is building them in hopes it can continue.
“While Mr. Czysz is obviously a great self-promoter, what exactly is he offering but HIS vision? …”
Who’s vision should he be promoting? Yours?
“My problem lies in the..arrogance …You have it wrongâ€â€¦THIS is how you do it. ”
No business would ever begin if someone didn’t believe he or she could do better than those already out there. That’s not arrogance, Joe, that’s creativity, courage, confidence, conviction, initiative and passion.
Joe, quick question for you: Name someone you admire, worthy of praise for an achievement. What did they do, why is it praiseworthy? I’m curious if anyone in the world measures up to your standards. This isn’t a trick question, I’m serious.
Gladys says
Joe — under all of that pessimistic, naysayer attitude, aren’t you at all curious to see how well this “silly” project (or any other alternate thinking)would work?
Tom says
Is Michael C. arrogant? Absolutely. Is that a bad thing? Not really. He’ll never come close to actually accomplishing this if he isn’t.
Until his actions catch up with his words, he’s going to have to live with the tag of “arrogant”.
If you’re a fan of American motorcycle racing, by all means, stop by the tent, get a poster and then go to the track and shout until your voice gives out for Jeremy McWilliams on his Buell in Formula X-treme.
JoeKing says
Kneeslider
Ever read the parable..”The Emperor’s new clothes”? I’m the guy screaming..”Cover yourself…a-hole” This project is either a great way to make a small fortune (starting with a large one), or is world-class scam. I trust then Kneeslider..YOU won’t be buying one..WHY? I guess you don’t share his vision either. Perhaps, you’re not convinced that it works…then why should anyone else be? Unique..Edsels are unique..want one?
I’ll be the first to admit I’m totally full of it..but I predict..NOTHING from this project well EVER see its way into a MotoGP race; the counter-rotating cranks, flex-forks, 6 1/2″ wide motor, regressive rear suspension, 60″+ wheelbase..NONE of it..watch. Just because it is different doesn’t make it “praiseworty”. In racing, ONLY things that make a bike FASTER make it better..show me that this is faster, then I’ll praise it.
Had this been a one-off for MC’s own entertainment, I’d be much less critical. But, when he takes this to a MotoGP race with aspiration for racing it at the highest level..& then thinks other people will pay big $$$; the bar gets raised & he opened the door to MAJOR scrutiny..I’m just being honest. If I’m wrong..show me with results.
I admire new ideas that advance their field..I see only “different” here. Its funny how people are so generous with their praise & condemm me for my appraisal; and when this project quietly dries-up, who here will acknowledge that they were the ones who were wrong…we’ll see.
kneeslider says
Joe:
“Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure… than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.” – Teddy Roosevelt
I do not know whether he will succeed or fail. The odds are stacked against him, for sure, but I am one of those who cheers for the player who goes out on the field and tries. I confess, I have no understanding of your gloomy worldview that demands perfection beforehand. The only way I know to never fail is to do nothing at all. I would rather see one hundred people try to achieve something and fail in the attempt than one person sitting on the sidelines watching with a smirk.
You also have a real issue with his offering motorcycles for sale. Why? If someone buys one, that’s their choice which affects you not one bit. My recommendation to you is, even if you could afford it, don’t buy one. Do you have the same issue with people buying other things you don’t like?
By the way, you never answered my question about an achievement worthy of praise, “new ideas that advance their field” isn’t an answer. Perhaps you could be a bit more specific by naming one, and be sure it was an idea that was an unqualified success on the first attempt otherwise the promoters must have been arrogant to think they could do it or running some kind of scam on those first tries.
JoeKing says
Teddy never raced motorcycles did he…because if he did, he would have learned that racing is an incremental endeavor. Small steps are the ONLY path to success (see NR500). Mr. Czysy will (like Daedalus) pay for his hubris.
You didn’t answer MY question..Are YOU buying one, or investing in this “glorious” scheme?
I never “demanded perfection”, just some something that is based on sound engineering principals…I don’t see any here. Counter-rotating cranks..a solution looking for a problem. The fact that Yamaha & Kawasaki use opposite directions & BOTH are competitive prove its unimportant. 6 1/2″ wide motor..great..if you have a 6 1/2′ wide… RIDER. Regressive suspension…bfd..been tried. Flex-forks.. when Kent Ohlin says..Why didn’t I think of it..I’ll be impressed. Better yet..ask J. Burgess what he thinks..I’ll defer to his opinion.
How about the major compromises..like high center of gravity (triple ohc..egad) & 60+” wheelbase. I guess Honda’s mass-centralization is wrong!
To anwer your question…Upside-down forks. Based on sound evolutionary principals & used in aircraft for many years before being adapted to m/c, it was no surprise to work from the start.
Rember Jerry Wiegert (Vector) & Anthony Gobert…this is a 2006 replay…style without substance. I’ll buy a bike evolved through years of small improvements…you can have flashy “Hail-Mary” fantasies..they almost never pan out.
MotoCzysz says
Hello everyone,
First I would like to say thank you to all of you that support our project. Your words are inspiring to the entire team here at MotoCzysz and, as our undertaking is a big one, it is good to know that we have motorcyclists behind us.
MotoCzysz, a company of over 20 employees, was started to design and build the most technically advanced bikes ever made in America. Some of the experts in our team have moved family and home around the globe to bring their experience and expertise in the motorsports industry to make an honest attempt at making this a reality. In the 8 short months since the MotoCzysz team has been together, we have created a world class level race bike, being assembled not 20 yards from me as I type this. This bike will be on display for the world to see in a few short weeks. For those who demand race results, I guarantee that no one wants to see those results more, or sooner, than Michael Czysz himself. The results will come.
JoeKing, if you plan on attending the Laguna Seca event, I encourage you to stop by and see the bike in person. Some of our engineers will be on hand and can illustrate the benefits of the new technologies in our bike. While you are correct in saying that racing is an incremental endeavor requiring small steps toward success, we are taking a slightly different approach. It is our belief that in this day and age, it will be next to impossible to out refine the other manufacturers who have been refining the same technology for years. We believe we have a better chance of success by not following them down their path, but by starting down our own, new path. Will we come out ahead? Only time will tell. In the meantime, MotoCzysz will continue to bring new ideas, passion, and creative thinking to the industry that we have made our professions in, and will proudly offer our products for sale at a price they deserve.
Sincerely,
Ryan Taylor
Director of Communications
Michael Czysz says
Periodically highly opinionated individuals write as if they have insight or first hand information about MotoCzysz. Below I post a few clarifications in response to JoeKing who has neither.
There is a process to successful design; you first start by creating a program. A program is a list of goals or perameters you want to achieve with your design. Before I designed any part of the bike I created a simple program. First on the list; before making money, before building thousands of motorcycles was to build the greatest sportbike made in America. No guarantee I/we can do this but I can guarantee you that if our goal was to build the 4th or 5th best sportbike then the 4th or 5th would be the best we would achieve. The personal cost (not just financially) to try to build a ground up, clean sheet sportbike is significant. I could not personally justify so many late nights away from my sons so I could be at work building a 4th or 5th rate machine.
JoeKing says “Small steps are the ONLY path to success”
I am confident no American can take small steps utilizing existing, Japanese architecture and out refine the Japanese. If we have any chance to create a competitive machine we need to create our own platform and refine from there. Additionally- there is NEVER only one way to do anything, simply that a person is not creative enough to see others.
JoeKing says “just some something that is based on sound engineering principals…I don’t see any here. Counter-rotating cranks..a solution looking for a problem. The fact that Yamaha & Kawasaki use opposite directions & BOTH are competitive prove its unimportant.”
Speak to any top level racer and there is no denying that crank mass makes it more difficult to roll a motorcycle. During a recent test of the Kawasaki 600 and 636 riders were commenting on how the 636 was slower to transition, the two bikes are virtually identical sans a slightly heavier crank in the 636.
I think your example that Yamaha does run a contra-rotating crank actually reinforces our position. Just for your clarification the reason we have counter-rotating cranks is not for gyro but to cancel torque and balance the engine. The longitudinal orientated crank on its own neutralizes the gyroscopic forces.
JoeKing says “6 1/2≤ wide motor..great..if you have a 6 1/2¢ wide RIDER.”
We have a fairing that protects the rider similar to the other manufactures. The benefit of the narrower engine is that we can duct air through the fairing ultimately reducing overall frontage area and drag. Drag and HP are not uniquely exclusive factors.
JoeKing says “Regressive suspension…bfd..been tried.”
Possibly- though I do not know of any examples, as this would be impossible with a traditional coil over shock; thus why the springs have been removed form the damper.
JoeKing says “Flex-forks.. when Kent Ohlin says..Why didn’t I think of it..I’ll be impressed.”
I have had several meetings with Mr. Ohlins. In fact it was his recommendation that we work directly with the R&D department in Sweden. Ohlins has actually made regressive dampening rear shocks utilizing shims not linkage and recently have just introduced a new fluted front fork that has a lateral flex component to it. We have also just been commissioned to build two of our after market front ends for a major factory race team.
JoeKing says “How about the major compromises..like high center of gravity (triple ohc..egad) & 60+” wheelbase.”
The engine in the new machine is 75mm lower than the proof of concept. We were able reduce the overall height do to the fact that we built our own head/monoblock in the latest engine. In addition there is no real additional weight due to the triple OHC as the configuration is (1) standard cam and (2) half cams. Another error you state as fact is in reference to the bikes length, The first bike had a wheel base of 55.9″ the new bike is shorter similar to length of 600cc. In fact depending on several factors our wheelbase may be to short and we will make a longer swingarm to compensate.
JoeKing says “I guess Honda’s mass-centralization is wrong!”
As I said before everything is a balance. We too are going for centralized mass but unlike Honda we are trying to locate the mass to optimize the roll of the motorcycle not just to make a ball.
JoeKing says “I’ll buy a bike evolved through years of small improvements…you can”
We plan to evolve the bike through years of small improvements once we have one, every project has to have a starting point, that is where we are at- the beginning.
JoeKing says: “A silly dream…”
Without question this is a dream, the question is- is it silly? I know my father-in-law, a very conservative, 80+ year old business man with absolutely no appreciation for motorcycles certainly thinks so. However recently with real conviction he encouraged me and said “you have to do this, you have to try, it is just in your blood.” And he is right. I am trying and I am giving it hell. If I fail, It was because I was not good enough, not because I did not try my hardest. I have one shot and I am taking it, which is probably more than some one like JoeKing can say.
Thank you for all the support we receive from the overwhelming majority of motorcyclist’s.
Very Sincerely,
Michael Czysz
Tom says
Mr. Czysz and Taylor,
Thank you for the thoughtful responses.
Can either of you tell us when we will actually see a bike on a track. Will Journalists (or your own riders) be riding the bike at speed at Laguna Seca?
Keith, Indy says
“All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.”
-Thomas Edward Lawrence (of Arabia)
Breaking the sound barrier and sending a man to the moon were silly dreams too…
aaron says
(nudge)…. speaking of new ideas…. any word on the kneeslider design contest? with the permission of Michael Czysz, you could make the theme “what a radical american sport bike should be” and the categories could include a redesign of the C1 as well as a clean sheet design for a radical racer. (with any luck, my entry could get me a job sweeping floors at the motoczysz factory if it’s impressive enough! or maybe just a t-shirt… I’m not sure floor sweeping would get me credit for an engineering co-op placement)
mark says
“Small steps are the ONLY path to successâ€
I think John Browning, Henry Ford, Isambard Kingdom Brunel, Kelly Johnson, and Jack Northrop would have disagreed with you.
Robert M. says
How awesome is that, for Michael Czysz and Ryan Taylor to stop by? I commend the entire team at MotoCzysz for believing in, pursuing, and bringing to life, an amazing concept of beautiful technology on two wheels. I think that these bikes will be highly regarded the word over, and I can’t wait to have a production model in my garage. For what it’s worth, my money’s on the Czysz. I would also like to take a moment to appreciate JoeKing for having the courage to express his opinion. Kind of falls in line with the spirit of the holiday. Happy 4th everyone.
hope0001 says
I have to say I am rather familiar with JoeKing from another web site forum, and to be honest we don’t often agree, BUT boy is he correct in this instance.
Here’s my simple take on the issue. If I remeber correctly, about 18 months ago, I read quite a few article about this bike, and how it would be ready for Leguna Seca 2005 and even would do a few show-case laps. Now I am not saying these claims were made by the owners/manufacturers, but they sure as hell came from somewhere (oh wait – maybe Cathcart (sp?) made it up – he’s a journo! lol).
Anyway skip on to Seca 2005, and as far as I know nothing was reported. Skip on to Seca 2006 and……………………………………………. yawn……
Self-publicity is all well and good for a start, but after a while it tends to wear thin.
Just in case anyone from the company does wish to lower thenselves to respond to this, let me make one point crsytal clear, so that they don’t revert to “And we’re glad hope0001 agrees with us, etc etc etc …..”
The bike has as much chance of being a sucess as a Foggy Petronas FP1 ie none
Pathetic
Ben says
Hi from Down under….
Geez you Americans are a funny bunch. You carry on like you have personally invested 10′ of thousands into this project and are fearing never seeing it again.
Apparently quite a few years ago one of the top teams in Top Fuel drag racing approached NASA and asked them how they could break the 6 second barrier. NASA crunched numbers, looked at the physics and the mechanics behind the machinery and said “Cant be done”
Not sure if you guys know of Wayne Gardner, just another aussie upstart who rode for Honda… said the worst bike he ever rode was the NSR500 with underbelly fuel tank. I reckon Honda should have asked JoeKing about this prior to entering it into MotoGP racing, for surely it flies in the face of tradition of development ? And the NR750 with Oval pistons… what was that about !! And BMW’s Telelever suspension… and the list goes on and on.
Who ever heard of a cranky old diesel winning Sebring.. .nah wont happen mate its impossible.. tell me that was a tiny tiny step forward
Unless you are working in the equivalent of the Honda R&D lab who are you to say something wont work (if you do then Im impressed that you got the job) ?? I’ll tell you, your one of the many without vision and foresight to recognise that there may be a better way of doing something. Your someone who lacks the conviction to put your balls on the line for something you believe in even when the “Experts” (I can only assume Joe is a world expert on Race Bike engineering, but couldnt find reference to that anywhere.. sorry.) tell you it cant be done and you should give up.
Imagine what a crap place we would live in if no one believed there may be a better way of doing things ?
So for all those would be engineers out there who have a good idea that flies in the face of tradition, better can it. Unless you are following in the steps of a proven product and are devloping it step by step the american public are not interested.
Would I buy one of these bikes ? Nope.. cant afford it
If they can get this bike to the start line then it is an achievement within itself. I would be ashamed to say I was american and this is how we treat our pioneers. Not all pioneers succeed, but at least they get off their ass and give it a try.
Down here in Aus, we support our guys. Its a shame you guys cannot see the big picture here.
Flame away !!
coho says
Ben,
Well said. Damn well said.
JoeKing says
Curious how when someone criticizes another, their qualifications/motives are immeditely questioned, yet if you praise, they aren’t..why is that?
Mr. Czysz, I do have an insight, which I am professionally qualified to make. This whole exercise is only secondarily about motorcycles…its primary focus is to draw attention to YOU. I doubt you sincerly desire to race MotoGP (where is the 800?).
I was struck when reading the Roadracing World article & the “Michael Manifesto” not the words of an engineer, an aerodynamisist, a suspension guru or those of an engine designer. I was reading a self absorbed con-man who has little use for learning boring fundamentals..you already KNOW the truth.
So, you are have succeeded in your primary goal of securing your 15 minutes with your magazine covers, fashion shows, parade laps & MotoCzysz lifestyle..but building a competitive race-bike & selling 3000 bikes…will fail.
Don’t quit your day job.
Tom says
Ben,
I’m not sure why you seem to think the general response is negative. Most of the responses here and elsewhere have been generally encouraging and enthusiastic as far as I can tell.
Personally, I’m on the fence. I want to believe something like this can be pulled off, but I wasn’t born yesterday and, when it comes to things like this, I have a needle in my brain with two extremes: Visionary Genius and Con-artist.
A few years ago, when I first heard about this the needle was leaning toward “Visionary Genius”. When I heard Moto GP was coming to the US, I started to get really excited.
When I saw the bike struggle to make a couple parade laps last year, the needle started to shift.
When I saw that they would have a “tent” this year (after claims last year that they would be competing this year), the needle shifted some more. I’m still hoping that the bike will at least be able to perform some laps at 150 mph in a couple weeks, but I haven’t seen any promises of that yet (which is why I asked the question in my previous post).
I’m still trying to remain optimistic and hoping we’ll actually see this bike do something that a Honda Rebel can’t, but until I see that, I’m going to remain skeptical.
I’ve seen enough words at this point, I’m ready for some action.
timk says
Ryan Taylor wrote:
> we have created a world class level race bike
To say that your bike is a “world class level race bike” when it has never actually raced (not even in a club race!) is pure braggadocio and the direct cause of most of the negativity that swirls around your company and your bike. A bike which has never raced at a world class level is simply not a world class level race bike. Period.
> The results will come.
Ok then, how about holding off on the self-congratulations until they do? After the results have come, brag ’em up all you like and I’ll be the first to offer a hearty congratulations. Until then, you’re just blowing smoke.
Michael Czysz says
In response to hope0001:
The bike, team and rider could not be put together for a race in 05, it was a very early goal and we failed. Early on we thought an American or former WSB rider familiar with the track could do well on a bike even if it was not quite up to the power standards of MotoGP, there first year at Laguna. The prototype engine was our own with our own cases but we did use modified Suzuki heads and of course a street bore stroke (similar to WCM utilizing Yamaha heads) our plan was to use and develop this engine while we designed and built our own complete engine. The plan changed (common in start-ups) when it took much longer to close on financing and get visas for our engineering team. With the delays I wanted to move all our recourses, money and people onto the new engine and get it complete ASAP.
Around this time we received the news that the format may/would change from 990cc to 800cc needless to say this complicated things, as we really wanted the first MotoCzysz road going bike to be a 990/1000cc bike. What we decided on was a bore/stroke formula that would be optimized for 800cc and still acceptable for a 990/1000cc, apparently we achieved this as our bore is the same as Ducati which recently announced the same bore for their new four cylinder 800cc.
So that is where the 800cc engine is- a stroke upper/lower case change away. We have a business plan and still feel it is the best way to launch a new sportbike and that means the first model should be a 1,000cc not an 800. Personally I feel a 750/800cc may be the perfect size but currently the premier sportbike class is 1,000cc
In response to JoeKing:
If you are so qualified, who are you and what do you do, It is easy to criticize while clocked in anonymity.
Again you clearly show a lack of insight. If all I was looking for was 15 minutes I would focus purely on Architecture where my company and I have already achieved all those accomplishments you so resent. As far as the RRW article it was a “manifesto”. When I asked John Ulrich why he did not “write” an article he said when he went back and reviewed the tapes he liked the way the interview “read”. If you have a problem with the article take it up with Mr. Ulrich.
Over the last 3 1/2 years we have built a mule engine (two existing engines joined to test the gyro, torque and balance issues) a complete running prototype with our own engine (utilizing modified heads) and are just completing an entirely new motorcycle. Every part in the latest machine is new. This time we designed our own castings or own, heads/monoblock, our own forged pistons, titanium valves, springs, throttle bodies, etc, more than 2,000 parts. During the same period we have only contacted just 3 journalists, two which rode the first prototype. From the outside I guess there must look like a lot of press, from the inside compared to everything else that has been done and needs to be done- we hardly take note. In fact I must get back to the bike now!
JoeKing says
Mr. Czysz
You are either a true believer in yourself or a glutten for punishment. I have perhaps been too harsh in my assessments here, as some of my English friends here will attest, my posts tend to be to be a bit OTT.
Who I am is irrelevant. What I am is a keen observer of past endeavors such as yours & have seen almost all of them wither & die for any number of reasons..the one most prevalent is what I am seeing here..HUBRIS.
I read your thoughts on “process” & was agast with your arrogance to what, I believe, to be the first priority to making a “world class” race bike….acknowledgement of the current state of the art! The process for building race bikes is NOT the same as building homes. You seem imbued with the notion that YOU alone have been blessed with the vision to the podium. Get over yourself..you’ll have to pay your dues. Incremental innovation is the lifeblood of success, & I agree that you won’t out-Japanesse the Japanesse (eventhough the Triumph 675 has)..but give them their due…the bikes WORK. No one has EVER succeeded with a clean sheet design..neither will you. Rob Tululie, who I dare say, is a bit more qualified than you (current head of R&D for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP WINNING Renault F1 team) didn’t build a MotoGP bike..smart fella..
To indulge myself in a my own hubris..may I offer some advice. SHUN publicity untill you have PROVEN something, it will come to you when it is earned. Limit your scope to those ideas which you have the time & resources to develop. The idea of a complete MotoGP bike with numerous advances is NONSENCE..you CAN’T do it..it is not a personal failure to not play for the Yankee’s.
I suspect that my words will be given the consideration that a blog post deserves (none); but if you continue on your current (misguided) path, you might look back here (haha) & say..maybe that a-hole wasn’t so full of it afterall…
Oh yeah, one more thing…you might tone down the “Visionary” ego thing.
kneeslider says
JoeKing,
“Who I am is irrelevant. ”
On the contrary, who you are and what your qualifications are was brought up by you. Telling Michael Czysz you are professionally qualified to offer your insights makes his question perfectly proper and logical. To refresh your memory, you said:
“Mr. Czysz, I do have an insight, which I am professionally qualified to make.”
Well, what are those professional qualifications? We’re all curious. If you continue to avoid the answer as you did above, then some might reasonably suspect you have none.
Your last comment above is starting to indicate that you have a particular and personal axe to grind and indeed you seem to take particular exception to Mr Czysz trying to build a motorcycle according to his own ideas rather than following along the tried and true path. Did you have a bad experience in your past that won’t allow you to try something new? Do you always ask permission before stepping off in a new direction?
Really, JoeKing, you have taken a stand that is so incredibly risk averse it’s almost mind boggling and you are absolutely guaranteed to never succeed in business. (“English friends here?”) If you’re from England, over here in the States, and down in Australia, too, it seems, we take on new challenges and try new things with ideas as big as we want and we keep after them until we succeed or go down in flames. If something slows us down, we don’t stop, close up shop and say we failed. We keep going and try again. We may eventually run out of steam, be proven wrong or we may succeed beyond our wildest expectations and that pursuit makes life enjoyable and worth living. (If you’re in the U.S., you should know this, you just don’t agree.)
MotoGP is a high art with excellent minds and resources already in the game but it’s not carved in stone with no way other than the current way. Michael Czysz may fail as you predict or he may succeed wildly or he may end up somewhere in between, but for you to condemn and criticize his attempt and aspirations is wrongheaded. You even toss out backhanded comments like “The process for building race bikes is NOT the same as building homes.” Thanks for pointing that out. However, what you might have missed is, that we don’t require that you be born into a family of mechanics, engineers and motorcycle builders before taking on the black arts passed on in secret ceremony. If you want to build a bike, go for it. If you fall on your face, get up and try again. That seems so foreign to you.
JoeKing, your side of this argument is one of pessimism and defeat and I dare say, there is little chance that you will ever see the opposite view or that those of us with a different perspective will ever see yours.
Michael Czysz says
JoeKing.
I do understand and respect your opinion. As much as we try to control all aspects of our start up we don’t. The area we control the least is what is written about us or the type and size of photos published. I spend all my time thinking, working and talking about the bike. Never have aI self titled or compared myself to anyone in any interview. I like you am puzzled about what the press focuses on, I would think most motorcyclists would rather see and read about our new engine over seeing or reading anything about me. I will continue to do all I can to push the bike.
peace and ride safe.
Michael Czysz
kneeslider says
Let me jump in again here and say Thank You to all of the participants in this thread, especially Michael Czysz, Ryan Taylor and yes, even JoeKing. I think this thread has run its course and I am going to end it here. JoeKing, if you wish to wrap up your thoughts, send me a comment through the contact tab at the top and I’ll insert it here.
Thanks again to all participants,
The Kneeslider
kneeslider says
As I stated above, I said JoeKing could wrap up his thoughts. I have shortened his response quite a bit since much might have required a rebuttal and then another response, etc. What follows is a very brief portion of his words:
———————–
JoeKing’s comment begins here:
Kneeslider,
I am from New York, & as you may well imagine, bluntness is how you servive here. …
I hold absolutely no animus toward Mr. Czysz, & admire his perserverence in following a dream. My problem lies in the impossible goal he has set for his project. I am a realist…& to encourage an unatainable dream would be disingenuous. …
The “professional opinion” I was referring to was my background in psychology in the context of what I perceived as Mr.C’s need for attention. …
You said “did you have a bad experience in your past that won’t allow you to try something new”…boy, you have me pigeon-holed..NOT. I have a room full of my “revolutionary” designs…difference between myself & Mr. C, is that I’ll let the world see my stuff..WHEN IT’S READY. I don’t require aggrandizement..I am self-actualized in taking satisfaction in the process of invention.
———————–
And with that, we’ll wrap up this thread.
The Kneeslider