The Kneeslider

Doers Builders and Positive People

Is the Motorcycle Available for How You Ride?

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Have you noticed the two schools of thought about electric motorcycles? One side, where I tend to be, looks at e-bikes as not ready for everyday use because it requires too many compromises and adjustments about distance, speed and direction. If you want to go a long distance, occasionally at high speeds, you may very well end up out of juice before you reach your destination with no easy or timely way to recharge, perhaps no way at all. When the batteries are improved, let me know. The other side says, many commutes are short distance round trips and where electrics can go today, you won’t have a problem. Ride to work, ride home, recharge overnight or if you can recharge at work, your commute can be longer and the trip home more relaxed. One side says, for how I ride, “e-bikes don’t work,” the other side says, “I could use one today.” They’re both right.

When we saw those photos of the early Harleys crossing streams and riding up mountain trails, they looked out of place because many special purpose bikes are out there able to do the job much more easily, 60 years ago, not so much, so back then, if you wanted to ride off road, you took your Harley and went off road. If riders at the time evaluated the Harley for its off road ability a person might cite the shortcomings, while other guys took pictures from the mountain tops. It’s all perspective.

The more we expect from any one bike the fewer there are that will meet the challenge, but unlike those earlier years, excellent all around motorcycles exist today and that’s why the e-bike has a tougher time making its case, we’re not used to functional compromise because a wide range of conventional ICE models fit many riders and their widely divergent needs. Electric bikes, though, are like those early years when you had to really push things to make your bike work in areas it was not designed for. Some can use them today, but they’re not for everyone or every situation, expecting them to fit everyone is expecting too much.

In many ways, this whole discussion about electric motorcycles is like the earlier exchanges with the sport bike rider criticizing the Harley or vice versa. Both riders found what they want, both have a bike that fits their needs, everyone should be happy, while at the same time, they should realize their view of the other guy’s ride isn’t that other rider’s view. E-bike, Harley, GSX-R, if you’ve found the answer for how you ride, enjoy it. As models proliferate or your needs change, reevaluate your position once in a while, you may be surprised to find yourself riding something totally different. Enjoy that bike, too.

Comments

  1. These days there must be a choice bikes for just about everyone. Up until the slump in the market there was a period where just about every brand wanted a finger in every pie. If a particular bike was successful in any segment then everyone jumped on the bandwagon. A good example being the ‘Ewan effect’ on the BMW GS. Sales went through the roof and all of a sudden every man and his dog wants an Adventure bike in the range, regardless of whether it was in line with their brand image. Result is that there is probably 3 or 4 bikes capable of catering for your needs, whatever they are.

    Recently we’ve also seen the rise of the ‘all rounders’ which as you say cater for the everyman. Consider the Suzuki Gladius (and former SV), Honda Hornet, Kawasaki ER-6F etc… Cheap to buy, insure, run. Comfortable and easy around town for the commute, but fast and capable enough to be fun on the twisties or even a trackday on Sunday. Perfect in these lean times where many can’t afford the luxury of 2 or 3 bikes in the garage.

    It’s taken years to get to the point where materials and Engineering allow a low cost machine to perform this well. Any new technology is going to have a hell of a fight to displace these bikes. To get a foothold it has to start with the niches, whether that’s commuting (Brammmo), motocross( Zero) or circuit racing (Motoczysz).

  2. Multiple bikes for multiple tasks! If you can afford it. I am sure that most readers here have a few bikes. My FJR1300 seems to do everything nicely (fro a 600lb SportTour). But I also have a (vintage?) ’74 XL175. Great for ripping around town but won’t do the distance (it doesn’t like holding sustained speed – anything over 45mph).

    So I have 2 bikes with 2 distinct purposes. Not all, though, can afford 2 bikes. So? Figure out the kind of riding you want to do and buy the bike that will fit that purpose. Base it on practicality, not emotion (I know – it’s hard because 99% of us base our bike purchase on the latter).

    Maybe then an electric (or other alternative fuel) bike will fit your needs.

  3. In my opinion an EV bike will have to do at least 90mph average speed at 100 miles to be a contender in the USA. Some countries could get away with less speed and fewer miles but the terrain and distance in the USA is looser than other countries which are more compact. It also has to be as affordable as ICE bikes. Right now you can build an ebike for a couple of grand which is awesome but the distance I have to travel (these current ebikes would do it) I’d like to have some buffer miles in there so I don’t have to coast home every evening.

  4. The key word for me is “available”. The motorcycles I most want are being made, but are not being sold in North America.

  5. I weigh about 240 lbs, I am about 6′ tall, I want a bike that isn’t fast, but isn’t an absolute slug, sporty handling is a must.

    Heads up riding position, cheap to insure, preferably under $1,000 (cheaper is better, I can do repairs or maintenance on it.)

    Something like a 400 single, what am I looking for?

  6. What I find fascinating is that despite the many options on the market, a huge number of owners still make significant modifications to get the stock bike closer to what they really want.

    Example: I want a big dual-sport bike — a multicylinder bike that won’t feel tapped out at 80mph while carrying luggage, that has quality suspension for rugged terrain, that doesn’t have lots of bodywork in the way of maintenance tasks, and that’s easy to maintain and reliable. The various liter+ adventure-touring bikes are too big/heavy (and in most cases, expensive). The BMW F800GS seems ideal on paper, but it’s been having serious quality control issues, plus I test-rode one and didn’t like it. The V-Strom 650 suffers from too many low-end components. The KTM 950 Super Enduro is pretty close, but requires more maintenance attention and gets terrible gas mileage, plus they don’t make it anymore. The upcoming Triumph Tiger Cub could be the bike, but I won’t know till they actually get around to announcing it.

    So for the time being I’m customizing my V-Strom 650 with suspension upgrades and bodywork removal to make it a little more dirt-worthy. It’s not ideal, but at least it’s very reliable.

    Thing is, I know I’m not the only person who wants a bike like this. It’s a shame the manufacturers haven’t noticed this. Suzuki could make a killing off a stripped-down ADV-Strom with quality suspension, spoked wheels, and minimal bodywork.

  7. @Chris: Good point about the speed/mileage average and “looser” distances in the USA.

    Let’s face it . There are a lot of great bikes out there that serve multiple purposes well. Adversely, most bikes serve one purpose really well. There is never going to be a fully crossbred, go anywhere, but still be comfortable, and super quick bike (unless someone comes up with a CBR Eddie Bauer Jet-Pack and folding wing attachment Edition!). Just like the fact that you can’t expect a Land Rover Defender to meet shoulder to shoulder with a Ferrari 430, unfortunately you have to buy were you needs are best met.

    However, I strongly believe that if people drop a lot of the stereotypes and misconceptions about a particular style of bike, they may be very surprised at how much the bike is cabable of. Case in point. I never liked the Sportster…until I rode a Nightster. Here you have heritage, great looks, comfort, power, and sportiness all in one little package. Granted, it’s not the most affordable thing in the world, but, you’d have to admit, sometimes they just get it right and it sideswipes all of your previous notions. Jack up the suspension and throw some AT tires on there and you are way ahead of the game!

  8. @ Miles: That’s a tough call. With your build I would honestly go with something bigger than 400cc. How about a Buell Blast: 500cc, Kawasaki Ninja 500, Suzuki GS500. I still believe that you’ll get tired of these bikes quick. If you want to go with something a bit larger: Suzuki SV 650 (standard, not the S), you’ll get a heads up position, and even though it’s not a single (it’s a V twin), the torque curve may not be what you expect from a sport bike. Very smooth, not twitchy. When you roll on the throttle, it feels like you’re getting pushed from behind, rather than jerked forward like a lot of inline fours.

  9. @ mark
    Yamaha Super Tenere (the old one, not the 260 kilo hippo that has the name now)
    Honda Africa Twin
    BMW R80 or 100GS

    Just because a model that will suit you is not in anyones current line up does not mean that a bike to suit you does not exist.

  10. Would an electric that is out there now work for my commute? Yes- 14 miles each way. No problem. But I also ride for fun….and longer than 50 miles. I have one bike, an old standard- it has moderately sporty handling, gets 60+ mpg and with a backpack, a duffle and bungies will work well for a weekend trip (with a range over 200 miles on a tank). I will not buy several bikes for different types of riding and I would bet that most riders have one bike. I would not reject an electric because it does not make enough noise- I reject it because I am not going to get a bike for one task and one task only and then need another bike to do what I got into motorcycling for in the first place.

  11. The Super Ten and Africa Twin were never available in the US, as far as I know, and if they were they’re now rare as hen’s teeth. BMW R80/100GS are bikes I’ve looked into, but they’re quite sought after and examples in good condition fetch a ridiculous amount of money for a used bike.

    With the current increase in interest in the ADV side of the market, hopefully manufacturers will bring bikes like examples back.

  13. By the way Miles, I am 6’3″ and weigh 240#- my one bike is a yamaha XS400 (400cc) standard and I love it.

  14. Geez,

    Aren’t we supposed to working the ELECTRIC angle into this conversation somewhere?

    My thought is that narrowly focused, high-end, super-fast, mega-expensive electric “motor” cycles are a joke. The only way this segment will takeoff is if it first addresses the transportation needs of the mostly non-vehicle owing public. Just like Honda, Vespa, Lambretta, Guzzi and their peers did after WWII destroyed the roads and the economy. The Isle of Man E-TT and car brands like Tesla are simply exercises in middle-age male/engineer ego stroking. Tomorrows functioning electric motorcycles are much more likely to come out of the electric assist bikes that have become all the rage in China and the developing world.

    Think about the early engineering feats of brands like Gilera, Harley, Piageo, Benelli and the like. E-cycles are sure to follow. I’m looking forward to it.

    Steve Timble

  15. Hi there. I live out in the country. Range is the biggest problem for me, on an E-bike. A short ride for me, is 40 miles. If it doesn’t have at least a 100 mile range at 70 mph, I can’t ride it. Now, if I lived in one of the large metro areas, it would be a different story.

  16. I’m a long-time rider, having owned many bikes, all European and Japanese. Current bikes are a Honda XR650R (for which I designed my own street-legal, dual-sport kit), and a 2003 Ducati Multistrada (purchased new). I think the Multistrada is the best street bike I have ever owned – having used it for lots of commuting as well as touring and weekend rides in the local mountains.

    I was skeptical of electric motorcycles until I got a chance to ride one around San Francisco during a presidential visit last year. The traffic, as one can imagine, was very dense due to the security. Fortunately, the guy leading our small group of electric bikes knew his way around, and we were able to travel up and down the street (along with the cable cars) where the President’s hotel was located. The cops separating the protesters from the hotel were very interested in our bikes, and we spent quite a bit of time talking to them. By this time, I had become convinced that bikes like the one I was on (a Zero DS) are the perfect urban motorcycle. Unbelievable for their mobility in splitting traffic (which I do a lot on with my Multistrada), making u-turns on sidewalks, and generally being completely unobtrusive. Often we were stopped next to cable cars, and could just talk to the passengers, as though we were pedestrians – no noise. Also, riding next to a friend, you could carry on a normal conversation. Anyway, I loved the bike in that environment, and If I lived in a city, I would own one. You really have to try one to understand how different they are from conventional bikes. Even with limited range, they are the best at urban riding.

  17. so far it’s been more affordable for me to have multiple bikes around than just one. If I was to have only one bike it would have to do everything and be really reliable. It would have to be something new and relatively expensive ( I do like the Versys but I don’t have the money). On the other hand, I’ve filled the garage with 9 bikes that each only cost a few hundred dollars at most – well the GB500 cost me $2000 10 years ago. Now I have a type of bike that fits every need from a small trail bike to a large dual purpose bike to race bikes and a touring bike and commuting bikes and even a moped for around town. If I sold every one of them I might be able to come up with just enough for one Versys.

    -todd

  18. I suspect that the entry route for electric bikes (in the US market) is going to be replacing the no-license-required 50cc scooters. The prices will have to drop below $1500/unit for that to really happen, which will need an advance in the battery price/performance trade-off.

    Most motorcycle purchases are still toys, and that IC noise is still important to lot of people. I am considering adding a homebuilt electric, specifically for my very short commute.

  19. Electric bikes will most likely get their foothold in MX, for a very simple reason: MX bikes go to and from the track in a truck. They aren’t used for travel.

    The range of my gasoline-fueled bike is close to infinite, because when I’m running low on gas, I can simply pull into a gas station and get more gas. The energy density of gasoline is approximately 100x that of a battery, and what that means is that I can get a lot of gas (range) into my tank in 60 seconds. It would take many times that to fill up a battery – and these limitations are relatively difficult engineering problems.

    It’s like the difference between a semi-automatic and an internal magazine. When the semi-auto is empty, you pop another magazine into it.

    What this boils down to is this:

    An e-bike with 100 miles range is going 100 miles that day. Pass that, even by a bit, and you’re going home on a flatbed.

    A gas bike with 100 miles range is going 100 miles for every tank that day. Pass that, and a Gatorade bottle of fuel will get you to the nearest gas station.

  20. I always like to see new stuff. I don’t always like it and most times I ask why right off the bat! Is it better? Is it faster? Does it look better? Is it lighter? I almost never even care if it goes further on a tank of gas or if I can ride it accross country in comfort in all kinds of weather. That’s just me though. The first time I started seeing pictures of electric bikes, I thought they were a bad joke. They looked like a window air-conditioner with wheels. But I can correct bad looks, so that wasn’t a big concern to me. However, I did ask all the usual questions. Is it better? No. Is it faster? No. Do they look better? Big-time NO! Are they lighter? Big no there too. So why bother? Because they don’t use gas? Ok, I’m listening, talk to me. Well, it seems there is some huge potential in the area of big-time torque and power. That sounds interesting. How much battery does it require and how often do I have to charge it? There’s the rub. Oh, and here’s another. I know jack about sophisicated controllers and frictionless motors and Li-Po batteries. I’m a mechanical guy, not a nerd. And frankly, handing over my life’s passion and 40 years I have invested in learning everything I could about it to a bunch of keyboard jockeys doesn’t appeal to me. Where will I fit in? What will I tweak or tune or modify? What will I do with all the crap I’ve accumulated over the years? Who do these electric guys think they’re messin’ with?

    Well that’s one half of my brain talkin’. The other side is sayin’, “Hot dam! New stuff to learn! New! Different! Change! Out with old stuff, get out the dam way, comin’ through!” So then I think about it and think about it and realize all this cool new potential and big possibilities are just starting to be developed and I’m gonna have to be patient to see how it plays out. The do all, end all electric bike replacement for all juice burners are still a ways off. No problem, I’ve got time, I’ve not in any hurry. When it happens, it happens.

  21. This is what I meant to say:

    “It’s not the critic who counts:not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the areana, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high acheivement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”

  22. Hey Folks, the future is WFO (wide freakin open). No we’re not there yet, but remember what happened to the steam locomotive, it became a dinosaur, as will happen to what we love to ride now, with all its/their internal combustion magic of sound and feel.
    We tend to see the e-bike as loss, not gain. The development of such, is only in its infancy. What about hybrids? I’m unaware of development here, but I dare to say somebody somewhere is working overtime to prepare it for introduction. Why? Range!….”No darling, I’d love to go for a snow-cone, but our battery range indicates only 3 more miles available, so we’d better get home to recharge”.
    My prediction is this, and it especially applies to cars, but can be applied to bikes: STANDARDIZED BATTERY PAKS! Remove and replace at your nearest “Power Station”, carry your Credit Card, exchange it there, attendant installs quickly for you, and off ya go! Simple or No? Off Road? Just keep your spares nearby, just as you do for your Makita/Dewalt/Whathaveyou.

  23. Can you trust your battery range? Can you predict how long your cell phone is going to stay charged? The weather, temperature, abuse, and age are detrimental to battery capacity. You may have bought your motorcycle under the promise of 60MPH for 60 miles but that was in June. Now it’s the middle of the winter, the battery pack is 6 months old and flat after 15 miles. You creep to a stop and 15 miles is way too far to push.

    There’s not many electric things I’ve owned that have aged gracefully. It will be a long time before I trust an electric motorcycle as my year in – year out mode of transportation. And this is coming from someone who’s worked as an engineer in the electric car industry.

    -todd

  24. What Ramadancer said ^. It’s no different than swapping out a propane canister. Until that day it’s not a practical choice for me, but it is for many.

    Getting to the point in battery development where standardization becomes practical and cost effective for the manufacturers is not just around the corner but will eventually arrive. The early adopters will fund this R&D period by paying a higer unit cost on a low production ebike today so that we or our offspring can pay a low unit cost on a high production ebike (probably containing lots of recyclable bits and not looking quite like the motorcycles we grew up with) tomorrow. Just like every other bit of fancypants technology from TVs to microwave ovens, smartphones, ABS, etc.

    Motorcyclists, as a general rule, tend to be very conservative about what constitutes a “proper” motorbike. However there is growing a generation or two of future consumers who don’t necessarily share our preconceptions. They will be the ones who design and ride the ebikes that will inevitably replace the ICE bikes if only because it will mean less exhaust in the cities. Ebikes aren’t carbon-neutral, but they do centralize the emissions at the power plant and make less noise, keeping the places where people live and work quieter and smogless. And cleaner power plants are also in the offing.

  26. Before getting into details which E-bike would be for which purpose a more important question needs to be asked: Is an E-bike really better/cleaner/efficient than a conventional one? If half of the bikes on the road today would be running on electricity would there be enough energy to charge all those batteries? If electricity is mainly produced by burning coal, would pollution be less than fuelling up your Honda? How much carbon dioxide will be released into the air to produce 1kW compared to a combustion engine? How poisonous and expensive is it to produce batteries? Are the components available or will future wars being fought over lithium instead of over oil? – These questions have probably been answered somewhere by someone, if anybody could point me in the right direction where to find them I’d be grateful. – Hybrids make the most sense to me – produce your own electricity, eliminate batteries, charging system/time, limites range and more. And if something should shorten out, you can make it home using the gas engine.

  27. Klaus,
    Is an E-bike better? Thats what we’re waiting to find out.
    Is an E-bike cleaner? Debatable, especially in the US which is the single largest consumer of energy in the world by a large margin. And supplies a large portion of that need through fossil fuels.
    Is an E-bike more efficient? Definitely! You gotta remember that a ICE only extracts roughly 30% of the energy contained in petrol. Whereas a DC motor will generally take 80% of the energy provided and convert that into kinetic energy.
    Energy infrastructure will have to change in the coming years one way or another and I can only guess at how.
    Hybrids are a stopgap technology for weaning the public onto EV’s, there is no future for them. They aren’t even more fuel efficient than a good economy car or diesel.

  28. Maybe someday you’ll be able to stop at a fuel station on an electric bike and pump precharged battery fluid into your battery, while pumping the old fluid out for recharging, and it will be as quick and easy as refueling a gas tank is now. And these refueling stations will use a combination of clean energy to recharge the collected battery fluid, wind, solar, grid to backup, depending on what practical for the location.
    This would change the game for electric bikes! The question is who throws the first pitch? Without a market, no-one will build the stations, and without the stations who would buy the refillable batteries?

    Well, you know, the ICE went through the same scenario. People bought or made ICE’s, bought fuel wherever they could, brought it home in tin cans from the store. Eventualy, in the more populated areas, it made sense to build a refueling station, and it took off from there.

    Racing electric bikes is a big step for electric vehicles. It is out out of the closet now, people are talking about it. But, I don’t see electric bikes in my future, it will be a long time before we can mount up for a three day trip of three hundred mile days on an electric bike, loaded with camping gear, etc… For now my Concours fits the bill perfectly, I can buy gasoline just about anywhere I want to go.

  30. I see the flexability of an electronic motorcycle as the platform that may well yeild a near universal bike. In the case of the Ducati Multistrada the ICE is entirely harnessed by electronic control. Another short technological step would be to isolate the kinetics of combustion from those of motivation in order to more discretely manage traction. At that point combustion is only one method of extracting electrochemical energy from complex molecules.
    The argument between batteries and fuel are from an engeneering standpoint seperate from the argument between combustion and electromotivation. Indeed molecular storage is likely the best in terms of capacity and stability. On the other hand releasing that energy through combustion I think will ultimately prove too comlex and prone to losses in friction and conversion. Energy in gaseous or liquid phase compounds, easily generated, stored, transmitted and transfered, can then be converted directly to electricity by fuel cells to drive myriad configurations of motors. Shouldn’t offroad bikes with two hub-centric motors be the last word in performance?
    So ultimately whether you store solar power in hydrides or shovel oil from your favorite beach that energy which is, after all, electrons will be used to generate an electromagnetic field to propell you through space. For the time being that will involve electric motors, but— stay tuned.

  32. I remember the first time I got to watch a color TV. I thought the black and white one was just fine. Why did they have to go and try to change what we sat in front of every night?

  33. You know something, I bought a Harley touring bike because it’s fun and it holds lots of stuff but I don’t really go on any long trips. This weekend I saw a scooter out and realized I could probably have bought a scooter and been just as happy about riding it.

  34. Kenny, You need to look at the big picture. A electric motor may use 80% of the energy sent to it, but remember there is a loss in getting the energy from the power plant to the charger, from the charger to the battery and from the batt to the engine.. All fuels have this problem gas included, But until we get off our Butts and start building nuke plants again we will never catch up to the rest of the world in electric power production.

  35. “WillyP, those liquid battery fillups are already being worked on.”

    Yes they are, but my point is that it will be at least years before filling stations that can exchange the fluid become common place. Who is going to invest in the equipment to do so if there are no customers? I believe it will happen, this is the way to go, I would not mind owning an electric bike with a refillable battery once I can be assured I won’t be stranded in the North Country without juice.

    Maybe as a first step, the refillable battery bike will be recharged at home and at the workplace like a non-refillable battery bike could be. But for those of us who like to ride for recreation, refillable batteries remain a far future vision.

  36. Hey Folks,

    A couple things to consider in regards to E-Cycles

    Efficiency – Yes it’s important but it is not the driving force for this transportation. Don’t stress over petrol vs. volts comparisons.

    Environment – Important again, but not as important as you think. Sure, you can do lifecycle comparisons of 100 miles of petrol (drilling, transporation, refining, transportation, storage, delivery, combustion, energy, emissions, etc) to 100 miles of electricity (coal mining, processing, transportation, burning, enery transfer, energy generation, energy delivery, battery production, battery life, etc). BUT this does not tell the story of where E-cycles are headed.

    Modern Motor Cycles to Modern E-Cycles – Especially unimportant. Remember that early motorcycles were inexpensive transportation for poor people. Don’t think touring or racing or spending a 200 mile day in the saddle. Think home to work, work to the grocery store and grocery store to home. Think kids to high school and cooks to restaurants. You might make a case that experience, life-long motorcyclists are the wrong opinion group to launch this category.

    What is important?

    Whether or not E-Cycles will offer an efficient, vital and forward leaning source of transportation to people currently without transportation options.

    If the answer to the above is yes, the consumers, engineers and manufacturers will solve ALL of the technical problems, all of the energy challenges and all of the refueling/recharging challenges. This will be just like the evolution of early motorcycles into the fast, strong, reliable and amazing vehicles we drive today.

    I’m looking forward to the revolution.

    Timble

  37. “Shouldn’t offroad bikes with two hub-centric motors be the last word in performance?”

    No, at least not with the current or foreseeable-future technology. Unless you are planning a very low speed vehicle, like the Rokon, the weight of an electric motor would be too much un-sprung weight.

  38. “Remember that early motorcycles were inexpensive transportation for poor people.”

    Nothing could be further from the truth. The first motorcycles were tinkerers creations, who added ICEs and ECEs to whatever chassis they had on hand… bicycles, carriges, etc…

    The first production motorcycles were bought by rich people as toys and for the novelty. As they got more serious, racing came into the picture. Like the automobile, production of motorbikes intended for utilitarian transportation came much later. History repeats itself.

    “Whether or not E-Cycles will offer an efficient, vital and forward leaning source of transportation to people currently without transportation options.”
    People who are in this class of wealth will be among the last, as a group, to purchase E-Cycles.

    Think… well, just about any technology we commonly have in our lives today. Telephones, electricity, automatic drip coffeemakers, microwaves, indoor plumbing. All of these things did not sell first to people who had no other options, no, they started out as expensive, luxury options.

    Who will be the early adopters of E-bikes? Let’s look at some recent innovations for examples, like the I-pad, cell phones, ABS, indoor plumbing. Now we are looking at upwardly mobile young professionals. Those who have money to spend on something other than the bare necessities. Electric bikes will appeal to them on several levels. First is the environmental factor, it is a very conspicuous way to show how much you are doing for the environment, if the manufacturers can convince the public that an electric bike is truly a green choice. And they certainly can, and will. Never mind what the facts are, we’re talking about advertising here, which always wins over facts. The second factor is the tech of it all. It is very techy andgreen. And exclusive, there just aren’t many electric bikes on the road right now. And of course limited production, and expensive, and not really practical, but of course the advertising will take care of that.

    So let’s see… We got Green, Techy, Exclusive, Limited, Expensive, and Over-Hyped… what group of consumers will that appeal to?

  39. WillyP,
    I have to disagree with you on a couple points. First, you use the term “Over-hyped”. Other than a couple roadtests in the major magazines and a few websites like this one bringing us new about them, I would say at the most, they’ve been under-hyped. They’ve raced twice at the Isle of Man and other than the builders of these machines caring about racing against each other and a pretty good article written by Kevin Cameron in CW, there is very little press to speak of. If I was on the brink of doing a 100mph lap at the island, on any bike or even in a race car, I’d be dancing in the streets. Other than this website, I haven’t heard a word about it. Over-hyped?

    The other thing was your assumption that the potential buyers would be trying to show off how “Green” they are. There may be some like you say, but there may also be others like myself that just may not feel threatened by them.

  40. “The other thing was your assumption that the potential buyers would be trying to show off how “Green” they are. There may be some like you say, but there may also be others like myself that just may not feel threatened by them.”

    I think this assumption is leftover thinking, like how my mom still thinks people talking on cell phones in public are trying to show off. Once upon a time, maybe, but now? I like the idea of electrics and at one time I thought it was all about being green, but now when I think electric vehicles, besides the relative lack of noise and hence “sleeper” status at stoplights, I think about torque. Bags and bags of massive torque at every speed.

  41. Sorry, I was speaking to the future, when viable street e-bikes start showing up with refillable batteries. It will then be up to the manufactuars to sell these things to people who don’t really have a need for them. Like the IPad, and any new tech that has come out it starts off as a luxury item.

    I’m of course generalizing, like the caddyshack villages down south, where there were brand new caddy’s parked in front of the worst run down shacks you could imagine, there always are exceptions. Some will be bought by poor collage students or factory workers who either just had to have one, or felt it just made good economic sense. Eventually they will become more common, less expensive, perhaps someday we will take them for granted like indoor plumbing or telephones.

  42. remember, not everyone gets electricity from coal, only about 50%. Some places that means zero coal burning. It’s funny how coal is always used as a benchmark for comparing electric vehicles vs gas. There is also a major shift in energy production going on in the US towards renewable or low impact fuel sources. This development is occurring along the same rate as electric vehicle development. For all intensive purposes, by the time (and IF) electric vehicles become mainstream, the use of coal as an energy source may have reduced significantly.

    Since I am not one of the types of consumer suggested in recent posts that will be an early adopter I imagine that I will be driving an electric vehicle around the same time all of the second-hand ICE vehicles are all used up. Not because I don’t find them interesting but I don’t see any social or economic reasons that make them more beneficial or cost effective to me than a perfectly good condition sub-$1000 motorcycle.

    -todd

  43. WillyP
    You of course put your finger on the critical factor concerning hubcentric motors…
    excepting that a foreseeable-future is defined by ones foresight.The most problematic factor in reducing the weight of a driven front wheel stems from the need to transmit tourque through the spokes. Motor weight alone is mitigated by displacing brakes with regenerative braking, advances in motor design, and the need to produce no more than 20% of the total motorcycles power in order to avoid the familiar drawbacks of any fwd.
    Transportation for poor people was indeed the driver of the post WWII boom that still very heavily defines the classic motorcycle for me. The people of Europe regained their footing, after the war, on motorcycles.
    More important, the operating cost of these machines is already so low as to nearly compensate for their astronomical prices. When we start to realize the incremental improvements and solve the already identified shortcomings in EVs the real prestige will be in being one who can afford to continue to burn manufactured fuel. To be one who still roars when all others hum!

  44. I tried to inquire to a Zero guy at the Quail Gathering about buying a frame and electrics to build a flattracker. I can’t remember getting a colder cold shoulder in my entire life! I think they’re livin’ in a small bubble. I’d like to think that I wasn’t the “Enemy”. I’ve also talked to Airtech’s Kent Riches who holds a Bonneville electric record about the reality of the whole electric thing. He said he’s gone through a mountain of dough to get that thing to a record, but it really hauls ass.

    I guess I look at this as the first steps of a new technology with some potential to be very interesting and maybe even have some impressive potential. I can’t understand why so many people are militant against the idea to the point of going out of their way to come up with every possible reason it won’t work. It’s not that big of a deal. What the big draw back? Speed and range. Batteries! That’s being worked on around the clock. There is a chance that that issue will be overcome.

    I wonder how the last 80 years of new ideas would have been recieved if there had been forums to beat down the enthusiastic inventers.

    I’ve got the bike I want. It goes around in circles on a dirt oval really fast and if I get beat by an e-bike, I’ll take a hard look at buyin’ one.

  45. Folks,

    Whenever there is a discussion of E-Cycles (or E-Vehicles) the challenges of fueling or, more specifically, re-fueling come up. I think everyone should recognize that technology and the freemarket will fix address these challenges quickly and efficiently.

    Do a little research into the early days of petrol powered motor vehicles and you will find that finding fuel was challenging and re-fueling was even more challenging. The modern, vehicle-centric world we live in largely came about because private enterprise recognized the profit potential in selling gasoline (and other items like service and food) to vehicle owners. More importantly, these companies (Shell, Exxon, Sinclair, Quaker, etc) had a significant say in how petrol powered vehicles were manufactured.

    Early motorcycle owners and well into the 50’s were greatly limited by the technology of their machines, the availability of petrol, the quality of the roads and numerous other challenges that were systemically addressed by engineers, government and profiteers. The results are the reliable, fast, comfortable, efficient motorcycles we ride today.

    The same steps are being taken with E-cyles. Just imagine that you’re Mr. Honda in 1945. This is where E-cycles are today.

    Timble