Sometimes, in their enthusiasm to tell a reporter some interesting news, company owners say things that might be taken the wrong way. I’m wondering if Craig Bramscher of Brammo had one of those interviews. An article appearing in the Wall Street Journal said this:
Women are lining up to test drive and preorder a new sports electric motorcycle from Brammo in greater numbers than is standard in the bike world, according to preliminary data the company is gleaning.
“It’s more aggressive an interest on preorders than in the traditional gas market,†said Brammo’s Chief Executive Craig Bramscher in an interview with VentureWire. “It could be as many as twice as many compared to gas numbers that we’ve seen,†he said, referring to interest from female buyers.
Perception is everything, but after building electric racing motorcycles and making the Empulse a great example of innovative styling and high technology, they were in a pretty good spot to make some inroads into a reluctant market, then they reveal that women are placing a high number of the orders for their bikes. A casual comment like that can tip perception in a direction they may not have intended. There goes the manly man market. Even if women are still a minority of the buyers, if it’s the ladies’ choice, some guys will think twice.
It happens with cars all the time, some cars are just purchased by women far more than men and after a while, the car gets to be known as a ladies car. It’s not always obvious what car that would be, either, until it happens and then you notice the drivers are usually women. With cars, though, it’s different, since women make up roughly the same number of drivers as men, but motorcycles are overwhelmingly (about 9 out of 10) ridden by male riders so going out of your way to bring attention to how many women are buying electrics might create the impression it’s a girl’s bike.
The article also pointed out electrics were attracting women because they were less intimidating, less associated with leather and tattoos. Makes you wonder if the Harley marketing department was just handed a gift. You can see the commercial now, man wanders into electric motorcycle showroom with pleasant elevator music playing in the background, walls painted in pastels, helpful young fellow walks up wondering if he can be of assistance, while burly guy looks at him with a raised eyebrow.
Lots of companies are focusing on women riders these days as the potential growth market in times of sluggish sales, but when you’re starting out with a new type of motorcycle, I wonder if it might be better to win over the men to begin, unless women are your target market. If the women get there first, some guys on the fence might decide to wait. What do you think?
A few additional thoughts: The idea of what women might want to ride has obviously changed over the years. While some think it would be a bike like this, others think it’s terrible if you even consider women a separate market. Some women want to be thought of as completely equal to the men, others want manufacturers to take their needs into consideration and build something unique. The stereotypical bike you might think would be a perfect bike for women might strike them as an awful or even condescending, while something a marketing exec might think is a man’s bike becomes a hit with women. As I said in a previous article, I’ve never been able to figure out women, so I have no opinion.
Link: Wall Street Journal
Rom says
Hi,
What about guys buying a Ninja 250 or a CBR 125? are they girls? I don’t think so.
It’s not what you ride, it’s how you ride it.
The most girlish riders I’ve ever seen ride expensive exotic bikes and have no idea what they’re doing. They deserve to be smoked by a girl on a brammo.
I don’t think brammo should be careful to tell who buys their products, I would love to buy one of their bikes and I ride a GSX 14, which is not exactly a girlish bike either ^^
thanks for posting stuff on electric motorbikes, it is very interesting!!
cheers, Roman
Paul Crowe - "The Kneeslider" says
Don’t misinterpret what I said. As noted above, it’s not always obvious what women will buy, it’s not that the bike is somehow feminine, or that you think someone who rides one is “girlish” to use your word, it’s just that large numbers of women might buy one, for any number of reasons, and as a result of their large ownership numbers, the association springs up in people’s minds.
To me, the Empulse looks pretty good and I would think the performance is top notch, so why women are gravitating to this bike in particular is an interesting phenomenon.
john says
If any bike is a girl’s bike, it’s a Harley…and I ride a Harley so don’t start thinking I’m trashing them. Girls LOVE Harleys.
FREMAN says
Vibration.
anon says
I made the “girls only like Harleys because they vibrate” joke to a friend of mine once. Her reply was: “Harleys don’t vibrate, they throb!” I never looked at her quite the same way again…
Carolynne says
I think I have to try a ride on a Harley
Tin Man says
Yep, The Mazda Miata, VW New Beatle and Mustangs all faced this hurdle at one time. It has taken massive HP injections to get the Mustangs respect, but the others still battle the stigma. My Sportster still gets dissed by big twin buyers as well. In sales, market placement is a Big deal, they best start painting the bikes Black and nip this in the bud.LOL.
anthrosciguy says
What can I say: the average woman seems to be one hell of a lot smarter than the average man in any number of areas*. Why not bikes? 🙂
There’s even a song about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DK_qqDC1VE
Cobalt says
So you’re saying that buying an electric motorcycle is smarter than buying a gasoline motorcycle? There are a lot of visitors on this site who would disagree with you…
Anyway, I don’t care if electric motorcycles are perceived as girly or not. I wouldn’t buy one because the range is limited to the city. Maybe I’m crazy for thinking this, but shouldn’t a $19,000 motorcycle be able to go more than 100 miles? If I wanted a low-impact vehicle for urban riding, I’d buy a scooter. Much cheaper.
cwj says
Unless there’s something about relative silence, lack of smell, easier maintanence of an electronic and completely ridiculous acceleration one finds appealing.
And electricity is cheaper than gas. One should bear in mind that if you’re comparing to a scooter, you should be looking at a much cheaper electric bike. The Zero or Enertia will put you around $10k before local incentives.
Until we see one of the big bike co’s start building and selling E-bikes in serious numbers, there will be a premium on them. For now purchasing one will still likely have a lot to do with the specific desire to go electric. As progress on storage technology continues to be incremental, there will continue to be situationally useful. Running Dakar? Take your gas bike. Running MX heats? Take your batt-bike. Riding cross country? Take you gas bike. Need a scoot for riding around a dense urban center with little safe outdoor parking? Get an e-scoot and just park it in your den at night (assuming you’re in a building with an elevator).
GuitarSlinger says
Well . Nice bit of E/V rhetoric there but you’re kind of missing out on all the negatives of E/V ownership . Such as the inherit instability of Li batteries – the larger carbon footpring created by the manufacturing of E/V’s over a comparable ICE – getting ‘ Bricked ‘ Carb-Qed ( BikeB-Qued ? ) etc etc . And errrr hate to tell you this but the Electronic Grids in the US are already stressed to the max …. not needing the extra burden of pretentious and non-beneiftle E/V’s of any sort .
So why IMO are more women buying E/V Blammo’s ( Brammo’s ) To put it quite simply because women for the most part are completely unaware of the engineering , problems , reliability etc of the vehicles they buy . Sorry ladies . No offense intended . Just stating a simple and accurate Fact
Cowpieapex says
“..E/V rhetoric…..women for the most part are completely unaware of the engineering… ”
Now we’re getting somewhere.Except of course your observations are essentially without merit.
The grid is only overtaxed during prime business hours when vehicles are unplugged and rolling down the road. They should be recharged during off peak night time hours when there is surplus power in every sector of the grid. My employer gets an 80% discount on electricity used after 9:00 pm.
Isn’t “inherent instability” another term for available power. That’s why we use uranium instead of lead to propagate nuclear reaction. Just image-search “burning Ferrari” if you need further help with this point.
I will have to concede that I have never seen the actual numbers or analysis that demonstrate the larger carbon footprint attributed to E/V, but it seems plausible, that is until you drive either vehicle and at that point things skew badly for fossil fuel burners.
I think arguments made in the absence of engineering understanding or evidence should not be accompanied by aspersions of others engineering acumen.
The question posited was one of image and marketing and not engineering feasibility. That boat sailed long, long ago.
Perhaps you could rephrase your question to “Who are all these sissified morons messin’ up my manly world?”
biggyfries says
Electricity is not ‘cheaper’ than gas. The E-philes always assert that but it has never been true. They often say “you can plug in for pennies a day” and other similar statements, but by the time you have purchased the vehicle, installed the charging aparatus (often more than one set if you intend to drive any distance (one at home, one at work, one at some other common destination) and calculate the cost of eventual battery replacement, AND the cost to the nation of producing electricity (windfarms, dams, etc) and then factor in the REAL cost of the juice on your electric bill–it is far more expensive than any ICE. I knew of a guy who used an EV-1 for a few weeks and his power bill jumped so much he returned the car after a short time–couldn’t stand the extra expense–and the car couldn’t be used on his usual commute–not enough range/speed.
I suspect E-cars will not be viable in our lifetimes. We will more likely develop some trans-teleportation device like on Star Trek before E-cars are competitive.
Ken says
There are quite a few big buck dirtbikes out there that will get you about 40-60 miles per tank! All that motor and suspension work adds up quick! So an electric bike starts to make sense… With motorcycles, comparissons are usually apples and oranges.
My commute would allow for electric, my budget isn’t quite there yet.
Let’s not forget the new white collar toys are road bicycles that can cost 10K. For a bike that you pedal.
pil2grim says
This article really looks like an attempt to put in men’s mind : “i don’t want this bike, it’s for girls”. Wich dark lobby is behind this one ?
And how did this article came to be published on this great website ?
@anthrosciguy : you’r so right 😀
Paul Crowe - "The Kneeslider" says
Dark lobby? Ah, conspiracy theories all around.
No, sorry to disappoint, but it’s just a response to the comment in the WSJ article I was quoting where a high number of women were ordering the bike. Something about the bike appeals to women in some way that other bikes do not. What is the particular appeal? Who knows? I don’t.
Right now Harley Davidson and Victory, among others, are specifically trying to target women. How do you do that, other than to build a bike aimed at women? What would that bike be? I don’t know. Do you?
Harley Sportsters have often been referred to as “girl’s bikes.” There are one helluva lot of Harley Sportster riders who would take issue with that, I would, too.
It may be an issue of size or weight, or in the case of the electric, it may be, as the quoted article notes, a lack of connection with the leather and tattoo image, I can’t say.
If you take issue with what I wrote here, you must have an issue with all of those companies building bikes for women, treating them differently than all the guys. I’m pointing out what was said and what is happening. You can interpret it however you wish.
pil2grim says
A bike for women is pink and tiny.
A bike for men is black and loud.
Ok i’m stupid 🙂
I think we all agree the only good question is : What is THE bike for ME?
And i’m afraid that asking themselves this good question, some guys will say “no” to the Empulse just because they read somewhere it was for girls; i’m sure it will happen.
We have to give a try to new motors, one day we won’t have the choice anyway.
Thinking about it now, the subject of your article raise quite interesting questions 😉
Thank you !
B*A*M*F says
I get what you’re saying about perception, but I’m looking at it from another angle. Many “dudes” want to have a bike that they can talk about from a mechanical perspective. Dudes love to bench race. We love pissing contests in all forms. It’s fun to be able to say that your bike has variable valve timing and eleventy billion horsepower. Or you could casually mention over a brew or two that it has overbored cylinders, 12:1 compression pistons, and chrome pipes. If you’re really slick like Rick, you could even show up on a bike that you built yourself, with custom milled and welded items.
Statistically, women are less represented in those circles. One of the major pros of electric bikes is that they tend to require less maintenance, fiddling, and tinkering. While that may appeal specifically to women, it is likely that it will appeal to a number of men as well. For a commuting bike, something I can plug in, ride, and repeat that cycle would be perfect. Winterizing becomes almost a non-issue for those of us who don’t have 12 month riding seasons.
If men, particularly those who already own bikes, don’t get the appeal of the early electric motorcycles, that’s ok. I imagine the new riders that buy these will be more than enthusiastic enough to evangelize for their choice.
Paul Crowe - "The Kneeslider" says
Along the same line of thought, maybe the less mechanical, more high tech image of the electric is what does it. Women are involved in high technology industries at all levels, the same as men, and the electric motorcycle is the high tech choice.
Electric motorcycles are almost a completely separate entity from the traditional motorcycle. Because they’re new, there are no preconceived images of any sort and women can just as easily buy and ride one as they would a car. Traditional motorcycles have over a century of history and women were a definite minority of riders, with electrics they have the opportunity to start on a level field, participating to the same degree as men. Interesting.
Miles says
I can bench race electric motorcycles just as well as gas (or diesel, or turbine, or steam) motorcycles.
Is the motor DC or AC, how many windings? What is their winding configuration and their timing? Are they wound on an offset-laminate stack, how offset? Peak amp draw? Sustained amp draw? Method of cooling, method of charging. How dead/how exploded would I be if I short the battery pack or touch the terminals. Is there a hall effect or optical encoder?
I think electric bikes might be geekier than the standard type.
B*A*M*F says
I hadn’t thought about it that way. I just figured that with the present lack of choices, the amount of diversity needed for bench racing wouldn’t yield anything yet. I guess I didn’t even realize how different e-Bikes could be in complex ways. The future is exciting.
kim says
For the time being, showing up on an electric bike will likely get you involved in more tech talk than you ever thought possible. One thing is reading or blogging about them, but meeting someone who actually rides one is something else entirely. Besides, hearing how guys go ga-ga over their computers (and switch to a to me almost incomprehensible language called ramspeak – I’m 57, y’see), two or more owners of electric motorcycles will soon have the inevitable pissing contests about what their bikes’ particulars.
FREMAN says
I ride what is considered a “girl’s bike.” Don’t care. The way I see it: If it matters that much to you, then maybe riding isn’t for you.
todd says
amen
Rob says
If I was Brammo I wouldn’t be worried. It’s a new market with new customers, if ladies like this bike they might buy them and that is sales. The 883 and the new VW are both success stories for the companies involved. I don’t think there is a design brief for a ladies bike except for lower weight, seat height something which works for a surprising amount of guys (hence the 883s success) and low maintenance with high reliability. Ribbons, pink paint jobs and a mirror big enough to check your ridding outfit are never going to attract more woman to riding. I think it would be a mistake to for any vehicle company to target men as their main customer, though I think it will be a while before we see the ad where a lady jumps on a 2.3 liter Triumph Rocket…
Sid says
There’s really only one “girl’s bike” stigma and that is the Sportster. The dudes that think the Sportster is a girl’s bike don’t know what they are talking about.
The Sportster used to be the baddest bike on the market before the CB750 came out. So what changed? Nothing.
I’ve heard more than once that the Big Twin HDs are “easier to ride” than the sportster. So who’s the girly man?
The Sportster hit many sales quota in its day for the Motor Co. so thanks should bestowed upon it, not falsely categorized.
So, the Brammo “girl’s bike” stigma will not stick because bikers interested in it are not the goons that perpetuate the Sportster myth.
btw…I see more girls on the 600 supersports than Sportsters by a wide margin and there’s quite a few Sportsters on the road being ridden by males.
john says
The sportster sold well because it was a better deal…more bang for the buck. I don’t think that’s the case anymore. I think there is a dyna or two that are more bang for the buck now.
That whole nonsense about sportsters being girl’s bikes was just that. Sportsters had higher seat heights and higher center of gravity and were actually more difficult to ride. Soft tails were the sissiest of all the bikes Harley made in the last 35 years. Lowest seat height, lowest center of gravity, most cramped riding position…basically they were perfect for girls. and men with short legs.
Starting in about 2004, sportsters changed. They stopped being a lean mean high(ish) performance machine, and started being a miniature dyna. They got big gas tanks, fat tires, rubber engine mounts, and heavy heavy frames.
Seems to me women have stopped buying sportsters and started buying softails. They also seem to go for italian brand bikes.
Cameron says
Women are buying 50cc scooters. Lots of them. Some stats are in the 40% and above (look world wide and regionally). The logical progression from a single speed scooter is a single speed electric. Same controls. Simple maintenance. Balanced budget over the long run (see “women are smarter” quote by anthrosciguy). Clean. Women don’t need to change gears or hear their own pipes to be cool. Brambo just might hit their mark here.
marc says
when are we going to pull our heads out of our tailpipes and look at the calender 2012 right manly bike girly bike aarr aaarr where is tim allen when u need him i run a gas staion and see all kind of riders, men women kids sissies(sorry) on all kinds of rides. dressers to mopeds 2 wheels and handle bars (3 wheels ok) thats all that matters , what powers them doesnt matter. GO green ride a bicycle, want to see some real high teck stuff .
Pol says
Two key points here.
“Girl’s” bikes in this country are the result of a lack of smaller displacement low seat height motorcycles in the American market. Upper body strength and shorter legs = lighter bike and lower seat.
http://motorcyclesandwomen.com/motorcycle-women/motorcycles-for-women/76-motorcycle-women-top-ten-motorcycles-
Being a shorter American male at 5″-5″ and 150 lbs, there are not that many motorcycles that I can ride comfortably so the bikes I am left with tend to fall in the so called “girl” bike range. Having lived in Tokyo and the Bay Area, I have ridden lots of smaller and niche bikes that are often put in this category but have a higher level of performance than some of the bikes on the list above. Yamaha FZR400, SRX-600, Honda CB-1 and Hawk 650 for more modern (clearly dating me to the 80’s here) bikes and then the classics of the Honda CB line from the 70’s. In Japan you can get pretty much any style bike in numerous displacements and the domestic market is not dominated by bikes that only fit people with long inseams.
It will be interesting to see how the large manufacturer’s deal with the changing average American demographic. I still often go into public bathrooms with latrines that are installed uncomfortably high on the wall. Think about that for a minute. I use the kids one that is lower if available. One or two inches lower and it becomes universal as it will not be too low for a taller person. The average person in this country is not as tall as in the fifties when numerous building codes came into effect. Back to bikes, there are good signs as many of the café styled bikes have lower seat heights and new bikes like the Honda CBR250R or the Suzuki TU250X that will appeal to this market.
Second point is looking at one of the reasons people ride motorcycles in the first place. I have heard many fellow motorcyclists comment on the sound and noise a bike makes. There is definitely a connection with open/unrestricted pipes and people getting attention riding down the road. Most women do not need any more attention/harassment than they already get from men in public. The quiet bike makes sense in this context.
As soon as range and cost come down or my income increases significantly, I am on an electric. It just needs to perform, look good and have a seat height that makes sense.
mikesundrop says
Still manlier than the Gladius
B50 Jim says
Carolynne — any thoughts on this?
My feminist wife distills the argument to this: men like destruction while women are nurturing. Women don’t start wars, and men avoid child care unless they absolutely can’t get out of it. Men enjoy explosions while women prefer quieter pursuits such as gardening. Internal combustion depends on a lot of fire contained in a series of small “explosions” , which is why guys enjoy riding with all that commotion going on between our feet. Women who want to ride might prefer an ebike that shifts the fire to a central location where it can be better managed and controlled.
OK, so this is a simplified and generalized argument with all kinds of exceptions — most women I see riding are on Harleys — but there could be something to it. Women prefer to ride (or drive) without having to think about the mechanical stuff. My wife’s tool kit consists of a pair of small screwdrivers, pliers, a smooth rock and garden trowels, while I have a basement bristling with tools, many of which are necessary to keep a balky English bike running.
All this might be moot — maybe we’re dealing with the “cuteness” factor — Mazda sold Miatas by the thousands to women when the manufacturer was trying to invoke the spirit of the MGB to men wanting to drive sports cars. It made no difference to Mazda — women spend the same money as men, but it shows what can happen when a product appeals to women’s sensibilities even when that wasn’t the original intent. Maybe the Brammo, with all its robo styling and no-nonsense appearance, still exudes “cuteness” on a level that women see. I can’t say.
The bottom line, however, is the bottom line. Brammo doesn’t care if its bikes are tagged as “female” as long as they move off the sales floor; and if the company can develop a whole new market, so much the better. Motorcycling still is largely a man’s activity, and if Brammo can get more women on two wheels, more power to them.
Doug says
…all of which still doesn’t make it a “girl’s bike” or a “guy’s bike”, but a buying decision. As others mentioned, it’s probably the simple maintenance that is the leading reason, which sounds a little familiar. Remember the motorcyling picture when Honda came to market? Reliability was the issue then, which transcended into maintenance cost of ownership (time and money).
If the range gets reasonably closer to ICE (and recharge time comes down 50%), then electrics will promote the cost of ownership and simple maintenance even more to offset the remaining gaps.
john says
“men like destruction while women are nurturing”
That’s pretty sexist.
B50 Jim says
Both ways! I’m equal opportunity when it comes to offending people.
Carolynne says
I don’t know what to make of it B50, I am kind of surprized that men can be turned off by labelling it a womans bike. Maybe the guys are just set in thier ways and women are more open to alternate options. I do kind of wonder if men really predominate riding as much as its thought though. I have been cruising around and I am seeing pretty much as many women riding as I see men. The only time I see more men is in terms of dailly commuting, but during the recreational times it seems there are as many women out there as men. My concern with an electric bike would be how much would it cost me to fix if it were to break down. I would like to keep things simple so its easily repaired, but I know nothing about these engines so maybe they are easy.
Max says
if you have to ask…
Domenique Hawkins says
I think the bike looks nice and kinda put reminds you of a Ducati 750 monster. If they were to increase distance and top end to allow for the rider needing that little bit extra.
todd says
Whenever I see a woman on a Harley, there’s a man on another (bigger) Harley a couple lengths in front of her. The women I see riding by themselves or in group rides are typically riding much manlier bikes than I am – Viragos excepted.
-todd
GenWaylaid says
I can’t see how this perception could possibly hurt Brammo’s actual sales. The kind of guy who thinks an entire brand can get cooties wouldn’t be buying an electric bike anyway.
If you look back at the types of motorcycles that were marketed toward women and succeeded, such as the original Vespa, there is a very strong trend. The key selling points are minimal mess, maintenance, and noise. By those criteria, an electric motorcycle is exactly what manufacturers expect women are looking to ride. Whether an electric bike is actually what women are looking to ride remains to be seen.
Zippy says
It is kind of like a bike with an automatic trans. they keep making them so someone must buy them. But no real man would ride one.
Zeke says
I agree with GenW on this. The sort of people that would buy an expensive electric bike probably aren’t concerned with this gender issue.
A real man buys a bike he enjoys riding, regardless of senseless stereotypes.
My man issue (other than money) is that the powertrain is just too different from traditional motorcycles. I like the ICE with a clutch and 5 or 6 gears. They are fun to ride, and the engine is one of the main reasons. Auto trannies and CVTs are just plain boring.
James Bowman says
Who cares who else likes a bike, I’ve always been able to make up my own mind? I’m 46 and ride a 250cc dual sport, which unlike the manly vtwins you actually see mine in the parking lot almost everyday I’m at work. When all the big tough guys have put their bikes up I add some clothing and keep riding, when it starts to rain I throw on the frog togs and go some more. I love to ride mine it gets 75mpg and cost me about $4,500 brand new and has almost paid for itself.
Now as far as electric I’m in love with the idea and I am not offended if some prefer petrol options are good. Limited to a 100 mile range could be an absolute killer for those who are going on long adventure trips, simply the wrong bike. This bike looks tuff just not going to pay the 19K premium for it even if in every other way it is a match. As far as I’m concerned that is the only issue that prevents me from this and the Zero x which is about 12k and performs on par with my Yamaha. At three times the price I could never make sense of it vs 75mpg. Most people who would be open to an electric vehicle are of a slightly different mindset and probably don’t covet pirate costumes that the real bikers wear. Don’t get me wrong I like HD’s and have ridden them but not caring who else was impressed or not.
I like that Americans have other choices made by Americans and applaud Brammo and Zero for their efforts, guys they just cost to darned much work on that aspect and I will buy one if I’m the only one who does and pees from an upright position.