So, Yamaha wants a hybrid motorcycle before the end of the decade. Can someone explain why? When Yamaha president Takashi Kajikawa said that was one of his goals for the company, it had me scratching my head. A couple months ago I said there was no need for hybrid motorcycles (right before the Gen-Ryu appeared) and I’ll say it again. Motorcycles already get great mileage and the technical complexity added to a motorcycle by a hybrid drivetrain yields nothing beyond the “feel good” marketing it would create.
Although the green crowd loves hybrids like the Prius, the real benefit of hybrid technology is with the big vehicles getting really lousy mileage, like big trucks, especially delivery trucks doing a lot of stop and go driving in the city. Hybrid technology has that weird result where city mileage is better than highway because the engine can shut off instead of idling and you use a lot of battery power. Buses are another sweet spot for hybrid technology as some are beginning to appreciate. Any vehicle that travels a lot of miles and gets maybe 5 miles per gallon, with an increase of only 1 or 2 miles per gallon saves more gas or diesel fuel in a week than a Prius can save in a year. Do the math. The environmental crowd criticizes carmakers for building hybrid pickups, and SUVs when those are the exact vehicles that can save the most gas for any given number of miles driven.
Trucks of all sorts are a constant in our lives and have to travel many miles regardless of fuel cost to keep our economy running. Freight has to be shipped, deliveries have to be made, passengers have to be carried and hybrid technology can help a lot in those environments. Hybrid motorcycles? For what? If your motorcycle gets 40 or 50 miles per gallon, and some get far more, the cost of the extra mileage with hybrid technology can be huge. The amount of gas or money saved is small. Focus efforts where they do the most good, a little reasoning quickly shows hybrid motorcycles are a waste of time, money and effort.
Any company is free to build whatever they want and the market will decide whether it was a good move, trendy types will always buy the new or cool thing, but hybrids are slowly finding a niche and it’s not where most people think it is. Big hybrid trucks are a great idea, little hybrid cars will sell because they’re trendy. It’s exactly the opposite of what many think is the right thing to do and it underscores why Yamaha is off base on this one.
Angus Farquhar says
I have to say I disagree with you on this one. Your main premise for this post is that bikes already get great mileage and you quote 40 to 50 mpg. Now in my book, this is not great mileage.
The people I work with drive modern diesel engined cars and can get up to 60mpg from a 2 litre engine.
100 mpg is more what I call good fuel economy fora bike but currently the only bikes that are likely to make this kind of return are 125cc or less, which are great for the urban commuter but not very practicle for long distance or out of town riding.
As far as I am concerned, any development that takes us closer to using less of our ever dwindling oil stocks is a good one. You’re right in saying that bigger vehicles (trucks/busses) make the most gains from hybrid technology but what is wrong with encouraging everyone to make small gains.
The UK currently has a campaign running to encourage every person to save 20% of the energy they use by turning off lights and turning down heating by 2 degrees etc. The idea is that lots of people saving small amounts of energy will equate to a massive saving across the entire population and result in more chance of meeting the nations responsibility for cutting greenhouse emissions.
Why is it wrong to apply this kind of thinking to two wheels. If Yamaha believes it can offer bikes with an energy saving over normal petrol engines then good on them, even if it is a small one.
By doing this the firm is raising the awareness of the need for this kind of technology and even if it is not the ideal solution it is a first step along a very good road and may prompt other to comes up with even better solutions in the race to compete.
kneeslider says
Angus, all good points. I agree that saving fuel, by whatever method even in small amounts, is a good thing and diesels could be a good choice for bikes, too, as the Thunder Star has shown, getting great performance and somewhere above 100mpg, depending on who you talk to. The point I was making was getting the most bang for the buck. Hybrid motorcycles will make collectively almost no difference in the total fuel consumed, nationwide or worldwide. Hybrid motorcycles are, like I said, a “feel good” effort and there’s nothing wrong with that either, everyone pitching in doing their part and all. It’s like pollution controls striving to get the last little bit of emissions out of vehicle exhaust when shifting efforts toward cleaning up power plant emissions would have far greater effect.
If the goal is to have a major impact on the amount of fuel consumed or pollution emitted, work in those areas where the most fuel is currently consumed or the most pollution is created. Ever higher mileage from relatively high mileage vehicles ( cars or motorcycles) yields less and less at ever increasing cost, it’s the old problem of diminishing returns. Economic trade offs mean we don’t have unlimited funds or time and dedicating efforts to those areas with the greatest returns makes most economic sense.
On the other hand, if the goal is to showcase technology and a company’s skill, then you can engage in any kind of project, even if it really doesn’t make much difference in the overall problem. Yamaha can build a hybrid motorcycle, the company feels good, people are impressed, everyone’s happy.
The real problem is we can’t conserve our way out of diminishing stockpiles of petroleum, we need new ways of producing energy or increased use of methods we already have, like nuclear, which essentially has zero emissions of greenhouse gases and huge energy output for an electric powered world (vehicles, too?) and we don’t have to keep asking our families to shiver in colder and colder homes for the good of all.
I’m a technological optimist of the highest order but I also look at things from an economic perspective, if you can’t do everything, do what does the most good and accept the fact that some things will remain imperfect. If someone wants to showcase their technological skills, I’m all for it, but don’t confuse that exhibition as solving a problem or even making much of a contribution when in reality it doesn’t.
Prester John says
Honda exhibited their “Numo” 50cc hybrid scooter a couple years ago. Neat technology, but I remember thinking that if they really wanted to decrease world fuel use, forget the expensive, heavy, space robbing, technology blazing hybrid drive and replace the little scooter’s belt-and-pulleys CVT (inexpensive to build, very user friendly but probably the most inefficient transmission on any modern road vehicle) with a today-tech computer shifted six speed manual. Of course, that wouldn’t garner international headlines.
Tom
PS – Fun fact: Honda is building mass-production liquid cooled, fuel injected, catalytic exhaust 50cc scooters today.
hoyt says
Does a hybrid motorcycle get us one step closer to a motorcycle powered by a 100% alternative power source (such as hydrogen) ?
Or would the time & money spent developing a hybrid motorcycle suck money & effort away from the ultimate goal of being completely petroleum-free ?
Motorcycles and other small engine applications could be the pivotal area for petroleum-free engine development (if we can get alternative power to work at the smaller displacements, then evolve that technology to larger platforms)
Good points were made above, particularly the collective approach of everyone being aware of consumables. (at home, at work, as an individual, as a business, etc.) & the economics of solving the big truck polluters first.
sfan says
IMO the motorcycle world has rested on its environmental lorals for decades. I also agree that hybrid has a questionable cost benefit equation for motorcycles.
My wish-list of design elements that represent the best bang for the enviro buck include:
– small, high-efficiency TDI diesel engines
– biodiesel
– aerodynamics
Here is an example of what Honda can achieve with cars using last year’s production UK Accord i-CTDi (http://world.honda.com/news/2004/4040506.html):
– 3.07 litres / 100 km (92 mile per UK gallon)
– 19 speed records set, including were 133.04 mph (1 mile flying start), 84.25 mph (1 mile standing start) and an average speed of 130.38 mph over a 24-hour endurance period.
If this can be done with a 3000+lb car, imagine what could be on with a well designed bike.
Dan says
We motorcyclists are always touting our low environmental footprint when seeking favourable legislation. Making motorcycles (not all of course) even more environmentally friendly will only strengthen our arguments. After all, if the safetycrats start pointing out that a hybrid car and a motorcycle produce similar emissions, they will strengthen their crusade for banning bikes.
It is good to see the manufacturers taking these steps as they will ensure the legitimacy of motorcycles into the future.
aaron says
I think that a goldwing or similar mile eater could benefit from this…I’ve seen a guy with 2 25 litre jerry cans where the top box was because he couldn’t get the range he needed to “explore” sparsely populated areas… if you could double a tourer’s range while making it smoother and torqueier (2 properties of the electric motors used) quite a few might spring for one. the wierd factor might attract a few buyers too, not a lot of “iron butt” types strike me as the kind that would want to appear normal!
Oli says
I agree with your main article and have found many of the comments to it confusing.
Bikes are a fraction of the worlds traffic, and, as such, cannot make as much difference as one power station when it comes to emmissions. However, the question really is, why reduce the emissions? The whole concept of global warming caused by man is still in its debating stage – regardless of what the enviromentalists would have you believe.
If you wanted to make a bike more eco friendly, you don’t need to spend a fortune, – here are a few suggestions:
just put wood gas in it ( http://www.green-trust.org/woodgas.htm )
Remove the carbs and mould a manifold to make the bike run on a single carb – it works for cars!
Don’t accelarate – this is what uses the fuel. One of the EMAP mags in the UK did a feature in the last 18 months to find what fuel economy they could actually get from a production motorbike, and the winner was a CBR600 with 108 mpg!! They did it by very slow acelleration and keeping to the speed limits!
I don’t want to see a hybrid bike – It would offer me nothing new. I wouldn’t mind seeing a production diesel because they offer an advantage to what we have at the moment. To produce a product just to fix a problem which is, if it exists, can be fixed much easier by another method is just a waste of resources – and we couldn’t have that, could we?!
http://businessandit.co.uk
gshepherd says
I’m into alternative fuel and hybrid vehicles for a number of reasons beyond it being a “green” choice. The technology is fascinating, the driving experience is often unique, and voting with my dollars encourages, in a small way, the manufacturers to continue pursuing the technology.
Motorcycles and race cars are often high-performance platforms for pushing technologies on a small scale. As these new technologies are proven on the track, they eventually filter down to every day vehicles. Even the first production hybrid cars, like the Honda Insight, were more of a proof of concept and bragging rights (70 MPG is nice in a spunky little aluminum two-seater). As volume production increases, all the parts become less expensive: batteries, controllers, motors. Real world experience leads to improvements in hardware and software design.
I would envision a hybrid bike using something like Honda’s IMA design. Use a smaller displacement engine for steady-state efficiency and supplement it with a torquey BLDC electric motor. Use the motor for enhanced acceleration, recapture some energy with regenerative braking, and possibly implement idle-stop which can help keep the catalyst warm during brief stops. The BLDC motor can also smooth out power pulses from the engine and eliminates the starter and alternator. Advanced Li-Ion batteries provide your energy storage. A DC/DC switching power supply provides a perfectly smooth 12V DC system for accessories and lighting that doesn’t pulse or fade. Add a 120VAC inverter and you have a handy “generator” for campsite use.
I agree that hybrid bikes won’t make a measurable dent in our national fossil fuel consumption, but they can provide real world experience to manufacturers and riders. The riding experience might be quite enjoyable, a little smoother/quieter, and offer some interesting tech to talk up with your friends. I say, why not?
Dudel says
My girfriend wants a SCOOTER but wants to wait untill Honda’s Hybrid Scooter is available. One would expect a girl who pays extra for organic fruit and cage-free brown eggs to purchase a cute hybrid-scooter.
Honda Develops Hybrid Scooter Prototype
http://world.honda.com/news/2004/2040824_02.html
easy says
to me it seems like the right way to go
Hydrogen isn’t powerfull enough to push a touring bke and storing it can be a real hazard.
gassoline-electric hybrids have many advantages…
1. it can accelerate faster into the rpm’s range where the ice is more efficient
2. electric engines can deliver their full power from stand-still so we could use them to negociate hevy traffic
3. you coud gat into no-emission zones in cityes around Europe using the electric engine alone
Hugo says
For my thesis I did a project for a fuel-efficient sporty motorcycle. I calculated that it was possible to have the same performance as a Suzuki SV650 while using 1 liter of fuel every 100km (or 235pmg!!). The interesting thing about a hybrid is you can tune the combustion engine for power/efficieny while the small electric engines deliver the torque, like easy says. So in theory a modern 4-cilinder engine combined with the torque of a big twin (electrical engines produce torque from 0 rpm). The electric engines can be small in size and power (say two times 8hp) and are relatively cheap. Batteries can be small because of the low power required by the electric engine. The hybrid system I used for the concept on paper was a Swedish invention:
http://www.powertrain.se/
Because of the low fuel consumption you don’t need a big fueltank meaning it can be placed easier under, for instance, the drivers seat
james gatward says
The published figures for hybred cars tend to be extremely in accurate. owners of the prius tend to get fuel consumption of between 30 and 40 mpg which is not that impressive at all!
the electric motors can oly be used for low power requirements such as 5 mph queues.