The Kneeslider

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Hyanide and Baal – all terrain motorcycles

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Baal tracked motorcycle
Here’s some creative thinking for motorcycling off road, it’s a tracked motorcycle. Ready to do battle with sand, snow or anything else, the Hyanide and Baal design concepts are part of the Michelin Challenge Design 2006 that’s taking place at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.

Hyanidetracked motorcycleBoth the Hyanide and Baal designs are based on a bendable rubber track. The vehicles are steered by both hands and feet. The concepts are capable of many different engine variations, these were designed to accept a 500cc ATV engine, the type which are already mass produced. The Baal concept was thought to be the sort of vehicle that could be used in the Paris-Dakar or Baja races.

The German designers are Tilmann Schlootz and Oliver Keller. Nice work guys!

UPDATE: Hyanide and Baal – Others Finally Notice

Comments

  1. How cool are these! Wow, creative thinking… wonder how long it will be before they show up in a movie… heh!

  2. I’d have thought that the honda grx would have been the top subject of any post on the MCD. It’s something I once considered for a rebodied lotus seven kit…goldwing power! it’ll have the right sound, but unless honda engine guys got at it, it’ll still be too limp and a little heavy. oh well, at least it’s not an inline 4 or pushrod 8.

  6. Hi guys,
    I incidently found this site, so thanks for your statements.
    @James: How to steer it? There is a combined hand-and-foot-steering system including two steer axis, handle grips and pedals, that allow the driver to support his hands by feet while bending the special rubber track along smooth curves and tight terrain.
    @Keith: creative copying? Good joke – but the pic’s really great! 8)

  7. Copying indeed!

    Perhaps not intentional, but these guys CERTAINLY weren’t the first to have this idea.

    The Finncat, a Finnish snowmobile from 1980 — over 25 years ago! — worked exactly the same way. Here’s a short snippet about it: http://www.museebombardier.com/en/content/motoneige/innov_finncat.htm . And here’s another picture, of a black one this time: http://koti.mbnet.fi/koskini/ .

    And the Swedish “Larven” (d.h, “Die Raupe”, Tillman. 🙂 preceded that by another 15 to 20 years! (Apparently there were prototypes from as early as the late fifties, and manufacturing started in 1965.) See http://hem.passagen.se/larvenklubben/Sida2.htm . And at http://www.larven.nu/ there are some more
    nice pictures. (Check out these ones, for instance: http://www.larven.nu/larv_12.jpg , and http://www.larven.nu/larv_15.jpg , http://www.larven.nu/larv_16.jpg , http://www.larven.nu/larv_17.jpg )

  9. Yeah, thanx for your research! Finally somebody understands the concept of the vehicle! That’s great.
    I already did my own research last winter and I know all of the compared vehicles, the concrete differences to mine and the reasons why they did not conquer the world of sand, snow, mud and rough terrain.
    Some are made of more than just one track – so they do not bend but simply turn, some run on skies (imagine this on the rocks), some force the driver to run on skies and brake his legs and some were planned for the wrong market.
    But, what is most important for me – they do not look like a new type of vehicle. It’s the impression, based on concept and styling, that makes something not only a modification of an old fellow, but defines a new species, reminding on nothing so close.

  10. It doesn’t matter what has come before these things have such potential to be such good handling and all out nut machiles that any thing before is irrelevant!
    I’d love to test one of these things out on the open road.
    Out standing design and contribution to the biking world!

  11. I agree with Leigh. Great work by Oliver and Tillman. These designs look really cool and are a breath of fresh air. Most new designs in the ‘biking’ industry, while really cutting edge to bikers, are barely discernible from previous designs to those who aren’t keen motorcyclists (look at the new Triumph Daytona 675 for instance).

  12. Me again. Is there any way to get hold of Tillman or Oliver more directly. I write for 2 motorcycle magazines (one road and one offroad) and am really keen to do a piece on the Baal and Hyanide.

  15. I’m totally going to buy a Baal if they ever get mass produced, regardless of function. I just can’t resist the prospect of buying something named after a Carthaginian death god that looks like it was designed by a mad genius.

  16. What happens when your track breaks when a stick or rock get in there? You can patch a flat or even run on it, and worst case you only have to replace one rim, you can also steer a bike with a flat or some broken spokes. Once that track breaks there is no steering to push it out and if you try to you would probably have to replace at least 2 of those drive wheels and maybe the steering mechanisms or track guide mechanisms whatever those two pods of four rollers are. And I doubt you can carry a spare trake or a repair kit like on larger tracked vehicals like tanks and bulldozers. Why don’t they just design hover bikes O what they did that in starwars. just like those other designs these will fade away too, because the are not even practical enough for an unpractical toy like atvs.

  17. @Ryan: *rofl* yehas, I will take this as a compliment!

    @Scott: Of course you can carry a lot of plastic feet in spare with you on Hyanide and they can be plugged on and off very easily. Did you ever have a broken spoke on a motorcycle? Even if, there is less than a quarter of the whole weight on each wheel so if they get produced in a high quality I think they cannot brake at all.

  18. tracks have been moderately successful (as in they are currently mass produced and used) on snowmobiles. I realize its not entirely the same terrain, but a good indication that the doom and gloom Scott had may be a bit exaggerated

  19. I don’t care if it’s been done before. I want one! It is one of the coolest things I’ve ever seen.

  20. I’ll buy one too- BUT.

    Take a look at these:
    http://www.mattracks.com/
    Top speed of 40, due to friction losses and heat. Massively less efficient use of power over a rolling wheel. Great for deep mud.

    I’ve actually ridden a FinnCat- my dad has one. It steers just like you propose, by flexing the entire track. It’s got a turning radius measured in acres. Although it’s *really* slow, I’ve never gotten it stuck, even in the deepest Alaskan snow.

    Also, that idea would be interesting at speed- quite a bit less gyroscopic force helping you out.

  21. Are these things in production? If they are or even if they are on special order I want to buy one. My price limit is 50 million though. Anything over that is too much.

  22. Great looking design & would probably have enough traction to launch out of anything nature could muster.
    Unlike poster scott, I don’t dwell on the what-ifs, sure anything can happen anytime, however it usually doesn’t in real life. I wonder if scott carries every part that his car has in case something on it breaks. Sure you could carry most things that could go wrong in the tire dept. but motorcyclists rarely carry tire kits. Rarely does any of what he says happen enough to worry about & keep you from enjoying anything & if it does that’s what friends are for, that’s a required element for anything.

    A motorcyclists saying is if you do break down, is having the knowhow to get out of it.

  23. This thing is awsome!!!! do the disigners have a web site open for donations? or stock or any other means of giving them money TO PUT IT IN TO PRODUCTION!!!

  24. I would like to request a response from the designers, please?

    The artwork shown does not give me a good sense of how one would steer. On a motorcycle, steering gets easier the faster you go, due to the gyroscopic nature of the wheels. It is stated that on the Hyanide and Baal, stering is performed by hands and feet. So (at least at slow speeds) the track is laterally flexible? That is to say, 6he track flexes horizontally in reference to the vertical plane of the vehicle? And one would be expected to push not only with your arms to steer, but also with your legs, in order to get this flexion?

    My second concern is that the huge (relative to a motorcycle wheel) track would have to be going much faster to get the same gyroscopic stabilizing effect as motorcycle wheels? How fast would the designers expect before countersteering becomes available? Given the huge contact patch of the track, how do the designers propose to haul these vehices down from speed without either launching the rider off the vehicle or doing a stand on the front wheel?

    The third concern I have is how the track would shed water or mud when on a road or hard surface in bad weather? I would be very afraid of hydroplaning with all the surface aea of the track available to capture water, or worse thin (fluid) mud.

    As a personal comment, I love the look of these vehicles, particularly Hyanide. They look right, which I was always taught is a subconcious cue that the designers are onto something good…

  26. personally, i would love to take out the baal and compete in a baja, or more to my liking, the dakar. or just take it out for a test run just once for fun. that would so make my day.

    yo Tilmann, do you have an actual working baal and/or hyanide?

  27. Nice work Tilmann and Oliver, All radical designs will bring out the doubters, Ive been in motorsport for years and seen many crazy ideas and yours is seriously nuts! Pushing the limits and solving any problems is a fundamental of good engineering, we call it progress. 🙂 Im supporting an entrant at the 2007 Dakar and whilst it may be a few years off, your beast would be a fantastic sight. Keep Pushing for funding and future production.

  28. It seems to me that the pulleys would generate as much if not more gyroscopic force to stabilize the vehicle. So much force in fact that in combination with the track it might be difficult to turn at high speeds on a high grip surface (what degree of bank can an upright vehicle attain with a track vs. a tire?). In fact driving on any high grip surface would probably feel crazy! In any case i’d love to take one for a ride in the sand, snow, or mud!

  29. Oh man this is an absolutely awesome concept, would love the chance to take one of these out one of these days, as for the high speed turns, we would have to look at having the tracks themselves curve over and up the wheels on the bottom when you lean down, one of the downsides to a track based bike. This bike if it has a center guide (looks like it does), essentially can lay as low as a standard bike, looks like around 48 degrees from the picture. but if that center guide snaps, its hello asphalt. The gyroscopic effect of the tires shouldn’t be diminished, in fact increased simply because there are a 2 regular wheels plus 2 smaller ones on this thing turning as fast as the 2 typical wheels. The downside is the 500cc 1-Cyl engine, it can kick butt, but it’ll take some work to get it to race-level power. Altogether awesome concept and awesome idea, if it comes out, i’ll be one of the first in line

  30. Gyroscopic forces play almost no part in motorcycle steering. Play with a gyroscope a while and you will see why. You only get a torque from a gyroscope when it is actually being rotated, and you only move your handlebarsd a fraction of an inch for a fraction of a second (and not even always in the same direction).
    Gyrsocopes are not torque in – torque out but movement in – torque out.
    As a further thought on the subject, how much steering do you have wih the front wheel in the air? Almost none, and it isn’t the same kind of steering.

  31. any possibilty of a split differential assist ie. 2 tracks split down center .(same concept but may be possible for even tighter turning ). also i would love to know the hydoplaining limit on this because this might be fun to ride on the beach … personally though id throw a 300hp AC motor in there and have constant tourqe

  32. Please make this a reality. If you’re struggling for capital, show the above comments to a venture capital shop. I’m sure you’ll find there’s money out there for something like this. Also, you can consider an OTC listing to get this off of the ground (see ticker ASCO for an example). There’s so much potential here. Good luck and I look forward for future developments. Let us know if there is a mailing list/website where we can get future updates.

  33. Great design,great look.60 hp look a bit low for what this chassi could do but it’s sure there is room from improvement,and awesome ones.By the way I’m a buyer if uhave any spare ones..they are simply awesome:P

  36. i dont understand where the rider sits… any picture of how someone would sit on it and ride it? its a pretty cool idea. tight trails would be tough maybe if you cant steer tight though. does it turn like an articulating front loder sort of? or the track twists?

  37. When are these things coming out???? I’m gonna buy this right away, no questions asked! It looks really cool and fun.

  38. When and where can these be purchased. I would love to ride one for you just to advertise for you. I’m sure that every head i rode past would turn in either excitement or wonder riders and non-riders alike.

  39. All I can say is SICK! These are awesome, my favorite is the Baal, though I would change the name, maybe to like, Worthog or something. Just a suggestion, I wouldn’t want a bike named after a false god in the Bible.

    Anyway, keep up the good work, it looks great, I can’t wait to see a working concept.

  40. Has anyone here looked at Rokon bikes as a possibly very different [& far less complicated] answer to at least a similar question: how can I narrow my SUV for easy parking & navigation?

  41. yea, yeah , yeah, it looks cool, but lets see a video of it in action, cause it doesnt look very versatile to me, ill be waiting.

  42. I’d like to know what the top speed of the belt is and how do they keep it on the bogies in a 100 MPH increasing radius lefthander?

  43. its a really cool idea its way to early for this kind of bike to be on the street when the bikes we have now people suck at riding!

  44. I’m not really thrilled with the posture the rider would have to adopt.
    The hunched-over position is fine for high speed racing, but on an all-terrain vehicle it seems unsafe, tiresome, and impractical for agile manuvering.
    How much travel does the suspension have? It doesn’t look like it has much.

  45. I am recovering from a disabling motor cycle crash where I almost lost my left leg. I am a real estate broker and have no intention of going on government disability. I show large acreages to make my living. Does anyone have ideas for options? I am able to get around with a walker but I really need some way to maneuver over ruff terrain and timbered property. I do have a quad but I need something smaller and narrower on two wheels to get in and around trees. It needs to be vary stable and easy to maneuver. I work in a rural area and don’t make a lot of money, but I still want to earn my own living. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. Thanks John

  46. To John, The only option I can think of is the old tote goat. Currently named the rokon. It is a two wheeled cycle with two wheel drive. They go just about anywhere. over logs, through creeks, up steep hills, sand, mud, ect. Maybe not as stable and all rear wheel drive only, the yamaha big wheel, a 350cc motorcycle with atv tires. Honda has a simmilar model called the fat cat. I’m not sure if these are still in production, but should be easy enough to find Yamaha also has a dirt bike with really fat tires called the tw200.

  47. This thing looks pretty sweet. The fact that its a three in one motorcycle is awesome. If I knew the price I’d definetly get one. All together i think its a sweet motorcycle.

  48. WEll it different. 500cc WOW and it loos like a mechanical animal. It really looks to good to be true. My 9 yr. old son Keenan saw this machine and his jaw dropped and his eyes lite up. Would like to see a video of it in action.

  49. The bikes look fast but in reality would generate too much friction if used as road transportation.Off road atv would probably be the best use, but it looks like reinventing the wheel to me. I really believe the track should be one piece construction, like a v-belt, since the turning radius would be large only at slow speeds,and at high speed straight line use one would not have the multiple pivots/hinge joints generating heat.Cool vehicles but I don’t see much promise.

  50. Wow! This one of the most amazing designs Ive ever seen! I absolutly love them* but I do have a few questions Id like to through at yea- heres one: well first off I live in Alaska an it gets really cold up here.. do you know the degrees at which it would cease to run or maintain a good ride?
    second is: is there enough suspension to were I could jump this thing of a reasonable lip or corneous? and if I did is it gunna be weighted right to were I dont do a front face plant?!

  51. This is the most inovative and awsome idea i have ever seen, i know that they have never made one, only models. but i think im guna have to make one in my backyard if it never comes into production, i would love to be waching the pari-Dakar race and seing one of these tear up a dune geting some air time.

  52. For turning the only thing you could do is lean. but there is another option. at the bike show half a year ago there was a dirt bike there. the front tire was replaced with a small ski (Like from a snowmobile) and the back has treads. i have looked for a pic but couldn’t find anything like it. it must have been home made.

  54. I bet not a single one of you commenter’s understand much of nothing about motor vehicles to date. Let alone future vehicles. This is a joke. All the comments about these drawings sound like they are from drug infested morons. I think next month I will start a Explorer Paint file. I think I will spend the next year drawing and coloring a new vehicle that can travel light peed, carry a 3 ton payload, and fit in my front pocket when I’m not using it. Then put it on the Internet and see how many idiots fall in love with it. You know the ones that would give a couple of billion dollars to build a prototype. Before any real thought or testing has gone in to practicality usage for a human body to operate. Simply put, do any of you have any idea the amount of force required to injure your freaking spine? The “Wizard of Oz” said it all, “If I only had a brain”. This is not a concept it is a random art drawing. Track technology has been around for centuries and have killed and maimed almost any one that has spent a far amount of time operating. Are you guys ignorant, the art drawings are just that, they have never been built and if they were built, they would just sit in a corner and idle when started. I have never come across such delusional individuals in my life. Al though I do now a couple of them. I bet all of you think Star Wars is AWESOME! I Bet you lay awake at night making your real world a place just like in Star Wars? Hey, I got the new concept vehicle of all time. How about if I draw two planets and connect a shaft between the two and roll them from Galaxy to Galaxy?

  56. damn, Joe Blowhard, take it easy. Some of us were told that motorcycles were dangerous and would kill you dead too, that doesn’t stop us from riding them…

  57. It’s a clever idea and as it bends the tracks banana style I’m sure it would steer. But there would be a huge number of details to get right/go wrong on the road or race).

    It would be easier to have a bike with say 3 or 4 powered axles. All but the back axle would steer to greater degrees towards the front. With deep vee tyres the grip would be nearly as good as the caterpillar tracks.
    But it would never be as agile as 2 wheel bike and while grip would be good, all that weight would soon tire the rider.

    For people with disabilities wanting to ride a “proper” bike…
    http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/06/23/brudeli-625l-tilting-3-wheeler/comment-page-1/#comment-236849

  59. The design is similar to the Kettenkraad which i believe is THE VEHICLE for Indian roads.
    A variant of the Kettenkraad exists in Saurashtra which is very strong the Chhakda made by Atul motors.
    I wonder when a indian company will make such a version similar to the above.

  60. The lack of gyro effect by lack of spinning wheels might make it hard to steer.

    nice concept though.

  61. Sweet idea no need to shovel out my car just pull this bad boy out and off I go. Just wonder how much it would cost to replace the rubber track.