The Kneeslider

Doers Builders and Positive People

How the Motorcycle Gods Ride

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Valentino Rossi getting sideways

While looking through the latest Motorcyclist magazine, I came across this image from the Ducati MotoGP test session at Sepang. It shows Valentino Rossi entering a turn at speed with the bike pointed in a seemingly impossible direction, impossible, at any rate, for mere mortals. Most of us, if placing our bikes in this exact same spot, would be about to make our way across the grass of the infield or, within a split second, about to violently highside, unlike Rossi, who was, at the moment of the photo, still on track rounding the turn.

My understanding of the laws of physics is that they apply everywhere in exactly the same way, and in truth, they do, but as I look at photos like this, I’m led to believe riders like Rossi may live in some parallel universe operating under a different set of laws. Amazing.

Link: Ducati

Posted on Filed Under: Motorcycle Racing

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Comments

    • There is something wrong with this photo, IMO. Rossi is looking to the right. when I raced, you looked where you wanted to go. Also, if you zoom in on the image, you can see a lot of artifacts. I say Photoshopped.

  2. I doubt it’s Photoshop, but what isn’t shown is whether that was intentional, whether it was corrected and the corner negotiated without further incident. Or if the next frame would have shown a crash.

    I am thinking intentional.

    • Rossi has evidently commented that he likes the new bike and how easy it is to get sideways.

  4. No PhotoShop, just unbelievable talent. Professional motorcycle racers in Rossi’s talent range can ride in ways we mere mortals can’t hope to attain. I recall hanging around Cycle Tech North, a long-gone shop in my home town, listening to the conversation, when one fellow who had seen Kenny Roberts race the weekend before described his disbelief — he saw with his own eyes when Roberts entered a turn at crazy speed, laid the bike over onto the fairing and there was air under BOTH tires. Anyone else would have slid into the next county, but King Kenny simply stood it back onto the wheels and screamed into the next straight. That is the difference between great riders and motorcycle gods.

  5. Looks like he’s backing it in almost supermoto style. The video (which I can’t find at the moment) that really impresses me is VR negotiating an ess turn wherein he gets through the first turn lifts the front wheel, crosses up, sets down just long enough to start what looks like a highside, but in reality merely changes the lean of the bike to the other direction faster than any steering input could have and then gooses the throttle to lift the front again to stop the highside. If anyone can find it, its freaking incredible…

  7. He’s basically drifting. Were he to lift off the throttle, the rear would catch and he’d high side it.

    The man just has sick skills.

  9. As a former racer, team owner, and engineer I had an interesting (read depressing) thing happen that encouraged my transition from racer to team owner.

    In 1985 at Seattle International Raceway, I was on a Yoshimura GS750ES essentially identical to the one the Kevin Schwantz was riding. His bike had RG500 Gamma forks, mine had Showa.

    As I sat in my yellow lawn chair next to Schwantz and discussed how to enter turn 3, he could not understand why I was having such a problem.

    You go from a 4th gear left hander at 130 MPH downhill to about 35 MPH into a tight righthander which was a 180Deg. turn that was best taken in 2nd gear to prevent a highside, (1st gear if you were really good).

    I could not go as deep as Schwantz was going. We discussed it, and I tried to follow him in. Same bike, I am a little taller at 6’6″ but at the time I weighed 155 lbs, vs his 138 lbs. All I can say is that thank god there was an access road on the outside of it. I ran off the outside of turn 3 at least 5 times that weekend. I think that weekend was the 1st AMA superbike race win for Schwantz. I think Johny Bettencourt finished second. Me? somewhere in the high teens.

    I was a fairly OK club racer in the early 80’s until a big accident in ’87 made me realize that lack of talent cannot be overcome by courage.

    As a team former team owner, I owned factory superbikes from Muzzy, Ferraci, and HD, and I of course hot lapped all of them on occasion. As such I have ridden some amazing bikes, and believe me, it is talent that gets the factory rides on them, nothing else.

    If I would have had talent, I wouldn’t be an engineer now. We all know what Kevin Schwantz did.

    Mark L.

    • Nice story! Those of us who lack talent should never give up on our passion, but like you just approach dreams from a different angle.

  12. awesome photo. also amazing is the RedBull high fps super slow HD footage of Stoner at Misano

  13. But he doesn’t seem to be countersteering, just sliding both wheels. Anyone else would launch into an epic high side, but he simply motors on at twice the speed an average good rider could do. I stand in awe.

    • A bike doesn’t turn without counter-steering. He’s sliding and counter-steering.

      Discovery Channel’s Time Warp program should run a slow motion segment on these talented people so those, that would otherwise never stop to watch a motorcycle race, begin to see the talent, physics, engineering, and….fun.

      • “A bike doesn’t turn without counter-steering.” Wrong.
        This should read, “A bike doesn’t initiate lean without counter-steering.” Turning is accomplished by pointing a wheel in the direction you wish to go – or in this case, as B50 Jim points out, a full on drift.

        He’s just got to have the front wheel hooked up mostly.

        -todd

        • todd – in the context of this photo and post, “turn” obviously means to go around that right corner, not a streetbike making a slow 90-degree right “turn” into a parking lot.

          “Turning is accomplished by pointing a wheel in the direction you wish to go – or in this case, as B50 Jim points out, a full on drift.” – todd

          When arguing semantics like you did, your comment is wrong. There are plenty of photos/videos of road race bikes & dirt track bikes that are sliding while the front wheel is counter steering. The front wheel is pointed right & the bike is going left in the case of dirt tracks or Rossi’s bike in the video link –

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPIHfg3KJEY

          • regardless of where the rear wheel is going, the front wheel of a motorcycle (unless it’s sliding) is always pointed in the direction of travel. That was my point.

  14. I knew (and an Italian lady friend who knew Val’s daddy as well as Val agreed) once Rossi joined the team and sorted the bikes out from the oddball setups Stoner was noted for, it would likely help Hayden. Both like to be able to slide a bike in much the same way. Both are known to ride dirt ovals from time to time (Rossi’s Dad helped make a nice dirt tracker that is also sold as a Street Tracker) and are somewhat similar in style (though to be honest Val is a bit faster most of the time than Nikki). Hope Both stay healthy and have great luck this season.

  16. It’s called sliding. It is now possible to do it because of the 1000cc engine. Watch for Hayden and Spies.

  17. Some people ignore physics.
    Some people understand physics.
    And some people just play with physics.

  18. I have done exactly the above on my Ducati 851 …
    on a diesel lubricated mini-roundabout .

    I executed the maneuver flawlessly with all, but my underwear, undamaged.

    Bill

    • I included that Ducati link at the end of the post for a reason.

  20. I “do that” every time I ride…
    Of course only a miniscule percentage, of the miniscule percentage, of people who ride motorcycles ride at this level. But all of us are launched along a continuum of skill from that first moment when we successfully engage the clutch without killing the motor. Even those of us who readily acknowledge we have no place on the track must always strive through training, observation and practice to move further along that continuum.
    Replace gravel traps, green infields and brightly stripped curbs with wet gratings, brick walls and box vans and you’r back in the (very) mortal world where we all ride daily. If we strive for those “Mad Skills” they may well be there for us as they were for Bill on his Ducati. Those tiny victories may not make us gods but they do spare us our fair share of mortality.

    • I was recently involved in a forum discussion in re: VR’s personal motorcycle for the street. A translated quote from an Italien site, credited to VR himself, stated that he “did not ride on the street because it was too dangerous”.

      Truth? Quite possibly.

      I also no longer race, having too many injuries to ever be competitive and by no means the match for any modern day superbike champ even back in the day. The men and machines bespeak of talented titans regardless of actual stature. But as experienced racers here can attest, there is much that a rider can and will do on a pro track and surrounded by riders worth their salt. It is in this zone of special reality that superhuman skills emerge and are honed.

      Envy and admiration.

  23. Seems fairly straightforward to me. I can’t do that but watch racers do it all the time. The bike is a giant gyro and wants to stay at the angle you set. They come into the corner much hotter than I do. They then throw the bike over and as the bike turns it slides. The sliding is effectively braking the bike. At the same time still using the brakes often. It’s amazing to watch up close. Add in the rest of the skill in the turn and they seem to slingshot out of the corners.

    It’s interesting at a club meet watching the guys who can do this and them that don’t.

    It still looks like magic though. Me… I just high side the thing.

    There’s a corner at the local track where the fast guys arrive at the corner hop off the throttle and throw the bike over. Mere mortals, throttle off brake then go over.

    Probably the thing that amazes me most is how smooth the seriously fast guys are on the bike.

  24. There’s probably a bit of optical illusion going on here, too. When people look at a still photo, we see the action as “stopped” and try to apply our intuitive understanding of static physics. Even when we know the photo’s subject is moving, we tend to underestimate velocity and momentum and overestimate friction.

    • There is a foreshortening effect from telephoto lenses that contribute to the dramatic positioning of the rider, not to diminish Mr. Rossi’s obvious skill. You can see it somewhat watching a baseball game on TV with the camera behind and somewhat to the side of the pitcher way back in the stands. You can see the ball travel to what looks like it doesn’t get over the plate but the umpire calls a strike. Seen from a different angle it usually makes more sense.

      Paul, thanks for the little treasures you bring, it makes life more interesting.

  25. There are very few riders that have the skill level required for MotoGP.

    But on skyline, (and probably other twisty roads loved by motorcycle riders throughout the world) if you arent sliding both wheels then your holding up the line.

  26. Do they do this on regular tread tires? From the picture that tire looks pretty smooth, but that could just be the speed he is traveling

    • In dry conditions, MotoGP racers always use slick tires. That is, no tread at all. There are rain tires and intermediate tires that have very deep treads, more so than a typical street tyre, in fact. They still slide, though. In fact, the slick tire has more grip than the treaded tires, so it should be harder to slide, but I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong about that.

  28. He’s squaring the corners like they do in motocross. They are able to do this with all the electronics they have, in th eold days it would bite and fling you, today it’s the best electronics package that wins….

    • Not true. Riders did that in the 500cc two stroke era as well, when electronics use was minimal.

  29. ok,there’s still a question to be answerd,road racer (isle of man,ulster gp) or track racer (motogp wsbk) who’s the best?

    • A good question. Both have distinct qualities that do not necessarily cross over. I cannot imagine Rossi riding the Ulster North West 200. Those guys are bonkers, they do ok on the short circuits but the street circuits like the TT are so much more difficult and dangerous. There is just a few of them that excel at that.
      Neither can I see Rossi spanking it round a track such as England’s tight, twisty and super gnarly Cadwell Park though because of his talent he would do well. Personally I find MotoGP a bit too sanitised, mainly because of the majority of the circuits. WSB is fun to watch as is British Superbikes, because of the circuits and the enthusiastic crowds. And the fact the bikes are (loosely) based on production machines.

      • It’s like once you are at a certain level the tracks, the bikes, the engineers, the mechanics etc. all add up as well – they accentuate your ability – a bit like Nadal not having to pick up his tennis balls anymore. The talent is developed from a young age, the hunger or killerinstinct is another matter.

      • i like the word “sanitised”,just look at joey dunlop at 48 go at the isle of man,the man was gifted.

  30. A bit if a hopeless reply but there is a video out there (couldn’t find the link) of Rossi on a R6 demonstrating how he does it with someone else explaining the how’s and why’s. Someone else must have seen it…

  32. Yes, there are two paralel universes. Some people like Rossi lives by the oter side of reality.

  33. I’m sure a lot of good riders can do this, but riders like Rossi could nearly beat them riding a minibike. As with car racing, the difference between talented amateurs and top professionals is like the difference between a good garage band and the Beatles (for those of us who remember). They exist on a much higher plane; it’s their life, and their job description is “professional racer”. They are a pleasure to watch, and we mortals can learn a few tricks from them that can make us better riders.

  34. “… riders like Rossi may live in some parallel universe operating under a different set of laws.”

    HA-HA! Ain’t it the truth though.

  36. looking into the pic on ducati’s site it seems what he’s doing is called
    powersliding, just look at the mark’s the rear tire is leaving on the tarmac.

  37. even when rossi gets off the bike he does it the wrong way.
    by the right side.

  38. @Carolynne – Re your question on tyres – Rossi is on a slick tyre with no tread.

  40. In a book title “The Outliers” a in-depth study was done on individuals and groups of people who achieved far above “normal” people. Many factors played a part in the various success stories, the most significant factor was every one of these people achieved the “ten-thousand hour rule”. Which is to say that,combined with raw talent, oppportunity and appropriate resources all had acieved at least ten thousand hours of practice at their passion. And they weren’t done at that point. That’s where they seperated themselves from everyone else and proceeded to become the best in their field and often, in the world. If one factor were missing in these lives, they would not have gotten to their position, but the most common factor was this incredible amount of time practicing at a very high level. I think Valentino Rossi surpassed that mark years ago and has continued – in spite of some very challenging times in his career – to show he is the greatest talent ever to ride two wheels. This picture and many others show his and the other riders he rides with to be amazing people. Long may they roll!

  41. Mike “The Bike” Hailwood .. around 1965 on the Honda 250 Six … over 150 mph and drifting …. Kenny Roberts rode the Yamaha TZ750 sideways all the time. Agostini did the same thing on the works MVs.

    Not making light of Rossis talent .. he has it for sure… just pointing out the world class racers have been riding beyond the edge of simple traction for a very long time. It has NOTHING to do with the size or power of the bikes and everying to do with the skill of the pilot in keeping momentum at the max.

    A world class rider can make a bone stock scooter slide sideways.

  42. Several comments above point to the series of photos of which this one is a part, and viewed that way, it somehow seems a bit less impressive, until you once again realize what is happening. We’ve grown so accustomed to seeing this sort of control among racers on this level, we quickly forget how far from normal abilities it is. Although Rossi or Stoner and riders of similar skill can do things like this at will, balancing themselves and their bike on the edge of disaster, it is, nevertheless, separated from what the rest of us are capable of by an enormous gap.

    Because we are now able to see on demand what so few can do, it takes just a moment of mental laziness to think what they’ve done is easy or commonplace and why it’s so important to get away from the computer, now and then, putting yourself to the test in the real world, to find out how difficult high level performance in almost any field, really is.

    • A frightening reality is the number of riders, once away from the computer and TV screen, that actually maintain the self-delusion of non-existent high level skills. Whether sport biker or 121 CI v-twin rider as they launch full throttle through traffic or raise a wheel on four lane tarmac with nary a single lap of competition to their credit or any time with someone that has a few. The uncertainty of a breaking component or pavement ripple not within mind’s grasp and no clue of an apex beyond a four letter word seen in a magazine.

      Of course, those NO2 bottles strapped to my machine are just for looks. Never touch the button, oh no, never…

      • Competition is no doubt a mighty crucible producing phenomenal men and machines, but for those of us living three or four hundred miles from the nearest track I’m inclined to believe there are indeed routes to cycling greatness that may include “nary a lap” of racing.
        On the roads where I ride year round, resplendent with slides, sinks, towering cliffs, gravel patched blind corners and logging trucks, that button had best go untouched. Out here away from the computer, TV screen, and silky closed courses a little “get off” will not be greeted by corner marshals and medics. It’s not unheard of around here for a long missing cyclist’s skeletal remains to be found in a ravine in the company of a rusted hulk.
        Though my taste runs towards high performance road bikes my skills took a quantum leap forward when I started running a single cylinder dual sport. I’m now much more comfortable laying two separate tracks and am developing a better sense of what any of my bikes is capable of.
        What is most important to all of us is to constantly seek a higher skill level. I seem to recall Rossi himself saying his skill was significantly informed by dirt riding. Who knows? Maybe I’ll try a track yet.

        • Your attitude strikes a cord of agreement. I’m fortunate to live in a rural area resplendent with back roads and forest trails alike, and still within a couple hours of riding to Daytona or Sebring. The VMax is just one ride in my garage, a crx450 being another of a current stable of 7.

          The important similar mindset is that of striving for improvement in riding skills beyond just hangin onto the throttle or the rather simplistic gathering of air under the front tire. My group of right wrist flying buddies get together on a regular basis (weather permitting) for both a legal form of performance enhanced riding and one not so legally sanctioned.

          In the first instance, a “member” owns a private business which sits on a very large blacktop parking lot necessary for semis to load/park/disgorge various freight during the week. On weekends, it is converted to slalom course inspired by the police motor patrol competitions. Seeing some of those Johnny Law bucket heads thrash, scrap and toss full dress FLH models around a course should wake up even the most jaded street rider as to what they just might not know about handling a bike. Our practice events for burnishing chrome with tarmac and block-and-sand techniques via hay bale impacts is not open to public participation or spectators for the obvious legal concerns.

          Our second not-so-restrained efforts of keeping the demand for replacement parts high, is to take our prized street steel out through the deer trails, an adventure similar to my youthful runs against flat track prepped XR’s with a street Sporty. This middle-aged hoon-ism also has the side effects of a) rider cooperation in getting the inevitably wrecked hardware out of the woods, and b) the honing of wrench skills to return said machine to a respectable vestige of a street machine, and c) ths comraderie of the occasional emotional support for cracked ribs and wrists.

          None of us in this group is deluded into thinking we’re competent enough to take on the likes of Rossi. Nor do I desire a match with any of the extreme fighting champs or even a short bout with an aged Chuck Norris. But I do believe that regular workouts at the dojo keeps me more prepared for any encounters of the less-than-friendly kind (despite my physical setbacks), and I am convinced that doing more than just ridin in commuter traffic keeps the skill set and reaction times on the high side of the curve.

          And if there is a commonality to this blog’s “get it done” premise, it’s to get out of the usual comfort zone, or lack of normally prescribed options, and check one more off the bucket list.

          Good talkin to you..

  43. We’ve heard the term “lurid slide” Well Rossi is in a “LURID SLIDE” Amazing skill….

  46. I think the motorsport pros that do the best are the ones that are able to take learnings from one sport and apply them to another. Rossi probably learnted a lot from his early days of kart racing and thought “why can’t I do this on a bike?”. Leading him to try stuff that others “knew” was not possible. For another example take a look at Gilles Villeneuve, He started on Snowmobiles then took up Formula Ford, Rally and eventually F1. His cornering ability was legendary, beyond belief of his contemporaries, but when you look at what you need to do to get a fast snowmobile around a tight corner you start to get an idea of how he thought about getting a car around. The forces at play are friction and G-forces, and you use one to counter the other whether on snow or tarmac.

  47. Talent or the bike?
    Reading the start grid for today’s MotoGP Mr Rossi is down there in the middle runners.

  48. I’m curious about the earlier comment citing Rossi and Hayden undoing Stoner’s oddball settings on the Ducati. Oddball? Thus far, Stoner is the only rider that has mastered a motoGP Ducati and last night in Qatar underlined the fact that Ducati has fast riders but still not a fast race bike. And no one seems to know what to do to fix the situation. It’s hard to see this season being a fight between any other riders than the first three over the line (okay, plus Spies).

  49. Once we get to the more errr “interesting” tracks we will see what happens. But well done to the man from Coventry. Cal Crutchlow – 4th only 6 places above Rossi.

  50. Many of the above comments strike a chord with past experience, some as a spectator and other as a participant. Indeed, riding sideways it pretty commonplace for those who’ve ridden offroad or on flat track. But doing it on dry pavement takes skill to a much higher level. But old skills are sometimes useful …. like getting my Goldwing sideways in the twisties when I hit an unexpected hail storm a couple of years ago. Other than a severly puckered sphincter, I was fine.

    Perhaps part of my infinitesimal knowledge base came from a stint of rally driving many moons ago. The picture of Rossi is reminicent of how we’d point the car at some imaginary point out in the tooly-bushes and go through sideways. (My navigator said he never wanted to look …) Add in that it was often at 2 AM with the possibility of meeting a moose or a deer halfway through. But then, I was on FOUR wheels …. a little different than two.

    But to aspire to the truly “God-level” of riding or driving takes that bit extra that is beyond all but a very few of us ….. at least, to do it twice. I’m reminded of a not well known incident that happened a long time ago.

    A young fellow came in to see Trev Deeley (Google him) with a rather impressive racing resume in hand, looking for a sponsorship. Well heck, kids wanting sponsorships were a dime a dozen, eh? But this fellow must have impressed Trev because he asked him “home for dinner” to discuss things in greater detail. Now “home” was across about a 40 mile stretch of water and the commute was in Trev’s Cessna. About halfway across, Trev asked the young guy if he’s ever flown an airplane. “Nope.” “Want to try?” “Sure.” Well after about a minute of pushing, pulling and turning things, the kid punched full rudder, full nose up and full bank …. succeeding in getting them upside down in a flat spin. Trev watched as the kid figued out how to get it out …. which he did. After dinner and a return to the office the next morning, Trev decided to sponsor the fellow …. and history was made. Why? Well here was a kid who just charged into the unkown totally confident that he could master anything. Oh yes, the kid’s name is Yvon Duhamel..

    (More about Yvon’s career can be found in the AMA and Canadiam Motorcycle Hall of Fame.)

    Perhaps that “over the top” bit that Trev saw, is what it takes?