Doug dropped me a note to take a look at the engine patent application from Horex for their offset cylinder inline engines. Their VR6 engine has two staggered rows of 3 cylinders in a narrow 15 degree V configuration with triple overhead cams. Nice engine. They first describe the advantages of compact size for a V-inline configuration and discuss such things as an inline 5 or 6 cylinder arrangement, but then continue with a more interesting section:
A V-inline cylinder bank will be referred to below as the sum of two V-inline cylinder rows in a common cylinder housing. A V-inline motor thus consists of a cylinder bank with two cylinder rows arranged offset. The result of a V shaped coupling of two V-inline cylinder banks, all of which act on one crankshaft, is a W arrangement. A four, six, eight, ten or twelve cylinder engine can thus be built so compactly that it is suitable for mounting in a motor cycle. A W motor thus consists of the coupling of two V-inline cylinder banks with two respective rows of cylinders, that is to say four in all.
One crankshaft for anything from 4 to 12 cylinders in a W configuration, still compact enough to be installed in a motorcycle.
Well, that would certainly set the motorcycle world buzzing, someone coming out with a multi cylinder “W” engine, especially if it was an 8, 10 or 12 cylinder, imagine the sound of a W12 as you wind the throttle, smiles all around. Even a W4 or W6 would be neat, lots of cylinders and displacement in a very small package.
Of course, Horex still has to get their VR6 on the road before taking the next leap into something even more exotic and the chances for a “W” appearing anytime soon are slim, but it’s nice to know they’re thinking about it.
Thanks for the tip, Doug!
Link: Horex
Previously on The Kneeslider: Horex Motorcycles Returns with New 1200cc VR6
Travis says
umm am I missing something? how can it be a V and an inline at the same time, I thought the terms were mutually exclusive. Please explain. thanks.
Paul Crowe - "The Kneeslider" says
Each bank of cylinders, which would normally be inline, four on each bank for a V8, are now two very narrow angle (15 degree) V banks on each side, tied together to a single crank. A “W” is actually 4 rows of cylinders, 2 “V” arrangements joined together.
Bart says
VR6 motors have been on the road for quite some time; not sure what these guys have patented that VW hasn’t already done: http://wikicars.org/en/W12
My VR6 has over 234,000 miles on it and is still going strong, great motor!
HoughMade says
That was my question. What is fundamentally different about this from the VR6 (which uses only one “bank” ) or the engine in the Bugatti Veyron W16 or VW W12 (which use 2 “banks” as the picture above shows)? Is it that it is for motorcycle use? I’m all for compact, large displacement engines.
hoyt says
fig. 7 is worthy of a frame.
There’s probably a big difference (patent-wise) between VW’s application vs. Horex.
Knotlinks says
In order to complete a part of my collection, a 5 cylinder motor is required. Make it happen, Horex.
B50 Jim says
I’m visualizing a 1.6-liter, supercharged, short-stroke W12 capable of 300 hp at 20,000 rpm. I can visualize it, but I can’t imagine the way it would sound. Something like a the Earth being ripped apart?
Jim says
Before we go hog wild on small displacements and multiple cylinders there is friction to consider. At some point the benefit of many points of combustion is overtaken by the added drag of all that moving metal.
It would sound wondrous though or like a F1 car on full boil.
gildas says
The pistons are totally asymmetric! Probably to relieve sidewall pressure…
Paulinator says
Those pistons are a u-turn with respect to emmissions. Unburned fuel gets trapped in the space between the piston dome and the first compression ring, then released during the exhaust stroke. That space has been reduced by everyone else trying to produce clean engines.
hoyt says
Gildas – you are correct about the sidewall pressure. Horex has a good video somewhere on the web explaining that concern. The angle of the v is part of that equation.
Paulinator – to what extent have you read about the unburned fuel caused by this crown? I ask because the VW cars would have had the same problem….and since the Horex is in testing, the VW is the only long-term example to get actual data.
Paulinator says
OK Hoyt, I made that $h!t up.
Paulinator says
Why do something simple when you can make it hard? Why try to climb the north face? The old Trenton (Dodge) 60 degree V6 measures 13 inches from valve cover to valve cover and makes 245 ft.lbs of torque.
Ian Drysdale says
It amuses me that when narrow angle vee configurations are discussed, the immediate reference is to VW, whilst the latest to put this configuration into production, they weren’t the first by a long shot.
Lancia made this type of narrow angle V4 and V8 ( one cylinder head ) from the early 1930’s. There were several other companies who also experimented with similar designs, possibly even earlier, but Lancia was the company that embraced this design and made it their own. ( In a past life, I have did a lot restoration work for local Lancia owners here )
Cheers IAN
Racetrack Style says
I hope MotoGP sticks to the new liter engine size for awhile so we can see your V8 on the track.
Les says
They would have to drop the 4 cylinder max rule.
Ah, poor GP. From glorious prototypes of the past to boring spec racing 🙁
Bear says
The Ian Drysdale.
Bloody Hell, one of OZs/The Worlds great engineers here people.
Ian, I really enjoyed seeing the article in AMCN about your very different big twin, and your business overall. I had neglected to keep my eye out for your work for too long.
As I see things, time after time, so many things have been done before – there have been incredibly clever engineers that have made fantastic things in the past, that have gone by the wayside , due to economics, materials and production deficiencies. A lot of these ‘new-old designs have a chance of appearing again, in improved forms.
If you are still here / revisit, Ian, I noted that your 2WD/2WS Maico engined project is being auctioned – is It you that has put that up? Or someone else? If so, would you be tempted to re-acquire it, or, are you inclined to keep moving ever onwards, with no real need to have early projects around?
todd says
finally, motorcycles will be fast.
-todd
Rohan says
Matchless and AJS also did some narrow angle motorcycle engines in the late 1920s and early 1930s. While they wren’t anything fancy with staggered cylinders or anything, the 400 cc AJS Silver Arrow was a 15 degree v-twin with common cylinder head. And the Matchless ohc narrow angle V4 Silver Hawk with common cylinder head was truly an idea ahead of its time – it really needed water cooling !!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Matchless_Silver_Hawk.jpg
The Ariel Square Four, with twin parallel cranks ( ala Suzook Sq 4 RG500) and common cylinder head was the commercial survivor of this battle – it also had cooling problems – but was manufacturerd until the late 1950s.
Lotta ways to get compact multi-cylinder engines…
Peter says
The narrow angle vee isn’t new in motorcycles either. Matchless did it in 1931 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matchless_Silver_Hawk
But I wish Horex well with this. Variety and innovation is disappearing in motorcycles, as we seem to be becoming polarised between four cylinder sports bikes and v-twin cruisers. Thank heavens for bikes like my CB1300!
Peter says
Rohan beat me by a mere minute! Great minds must think alike.
hoyt says
Dollar Motorcycles from France also had a narrow 15-degree V4 with a longitudinal crank, but I don’t think it ever made production. This was in the 30s as well.
f2 says
To gildas, asymmetric pistons also make cylinder head design easier. It is very dificult to seal a V shaped cylinder/head gasket suface.
Klaus says
Carl Benz did not invent the combustion engine – but he made it work. Some French dude produced a vehicle 50 years earlier that ran 50 meters and blew up; anybody remember his name? Mazda made the Rotary engine work and sells it today (frankly I’m not sure of that, do they?) – who remembers NSU who came out with a rotary car in the seventies?
Lots of things have been invented a long time ago, but the manufacturer who produces and markets a successful version of the invention is the one who should get remembered for it.
So if Horex patents the VR engine for motorcycles, good on them – then the Japs can’t copy the idea after they’ve seen how it works.
Bob Saget says
Now to just add another bank in the middle, one more on each side and make it a two stroke. Motorcycles with that engine could be the best thing to happen to two truck drivers since air conditioning.
Bob Saget says
tow truck*