Honda has announced their “Dual Clutch Transmission” for use in large displacement sport bikes. I read through the description of this new bit of technology and it’s pretty interesting, one clutch for odd gears, the other for even gears. Each clutch engages the next gear then, with the assistance of the computer, gradually disengages one clutch and engages the other for a smooth shift. There are 3 operating modes, 2 are fully automatic, D for normal riding, S for sporty, plus a 6 speed mode that simulates manual shifting. The whole setup looks fairly compact.
The dual clutch will first appear on the new VFR in 2010 and gradually show up on other large displacement bikes, … can you say Gold Wing? That would certainly appear to be the natural market.
Purists will once again say that motorcycles should be shifted manually, this is just superfluous technology, but, despite their protests, the technology will continue to advance. My guess is those same purists, if given the chance to ride a dual clutch bike, would eventually leave it in the full auto mode because it works so well.
This is one more bit of technology that moves away from the home garage test. If it breaks, it’s a trip to the dealer. Of course, motorcycles have been moving in that direction for some time so it’s nothing new, but after a while, our bikes become a black box. If the ride is what you like, it may not be an issue, if you like to wrench on your own machine, stock up on vintage repair manuals.
Honda press release:
Honda Motor Co., Ltd. announced that it has developed the Dual Clutch Transmission (Patents pending: 100), the world’s first (According to Honda survey) fully automatic motorcycle dual clutch transmission for large-displacement sport bikes. The new transmission provides riders sporty riding enjoyment with easy operation, while its superior transmission efficiency delivers fuel economy equal to or better than a conventional manual transmission. A new VFR large-displacement sport bike equipped with the new transmission will be released in Europe and North America in 2010, with sales to commence in Japan at a later date.
This world’s first motorcycle dual clutch transmission features a light, compact design that allows it to be combined with existing engines without substantial layout modification. Further, the new transmission delivers the precise acceleration control riders require thanks to electronic control technology that helps ensure smooth, seamless gear changes. In order to respond to rider demands in a broad range of situations, the transmission is equipped with three operating modes, two full-auto modes (D-mode for regular operation and S-mode for sporty riding); and a 6-speed manual mode, which delivers the same shift feel as a manual transmission. Honda intends to gradually expand the deployment of the new transmission to more and more of its large-displacement motorcycles, particularly sports models destined for use in developed countries.
Honda will continue to deliver motorcycles that match the needs of society and users’ lifestyles, spreading the joy of riding and mobility.
[ Key Features ]
The new transmission features a dual clutch transmission configuration in which independent clutches are employed for the odd gears (1st, 3rd, 5th) and the even gears (2nd, 4th, 6th), respectively. The two clutches operate alternately to effect gear changes. For example, when changing from 1st to 2nd gear, the computer detects the up-shift and engages 2nd gear, then releases the 1st-gear clutch while engaging the 2nd-gear clutch to achieve a seamless gear change. While some dual-clutch transmissions tend to be bulky, the new system employs original technologies such as dual input shafts, exclusive in-line clutch design, and concentration of hydraulic circuitry beneath the engine cover to achieve a compact design. Compactness and lightness is further enhanced through the use of a simple shift mechanism design based on that of a conventional motorcycle shift drum. Optimized shift scheduling achieves fuel economy equal to or better than that of a fully manual transmission, enabling Dual Clutch Transmission to deliver both sporty riding and environmental performance combined.
Link: Honda
steve says
How much weight do you think that would add?
kneeslider says
Steve, from the appearance and description, I’m guessing it adds very little weight. Another way of looking at it is that on the new VFR it doesn’t add anything since that is what it comes with from the start. There’s no “before” to compare it to.
Gazberzu says
ok, I’m in thirthd… how will the computer knows if my next gear will be 2nd or 4th.?
Azzy says
I wonder what it does to fuel economy, good or bad? My wife has an 81 Hondamatic, and I like it, but it is not that quick off the line. Wonder if they fixed all of that with these.
Steve says
Sounds similar to the VW DSG push button transmission (I think it’s VW anyways).
scritch says
Sounds kinda like the Porsche PDK transmission with a double clutch.
scritch says
OOPS. Here’s the link to Jay Leno’s Garage:
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=820281
Look for “Porsche Carrera PDK Transmission” in “Under the Hood”.
taxman says
just like cars. i think that given enough time the automatic transmission will become the norm and a few people will still purchase manuals because they prefer it for what ever their reasons are.
also just like cars my guess will be that we will give up a little for the ease of operations it offers. cars have better gas mileage with a manual and to my knowledge most race cars or drag cars are manual. i did say MOST not ALL.
am i opposed to this change? absolutely not. my daily driver is a honda civic ’03 with manual transmission. i just enjoy controlling the gears. but i have to admit there are times i’m glad to take my fiance’s automatic transmission and can deal with stop and go city traffic without having to work the clutch at every stop. both have there luxuries.
ZREXER says
Theres a reason I have manual shifts on all my vehicles, I like to be busy down in the engine room INVOLVED with the mechanics of them.
Kenny says
…?
Okay so the individual clutches are computer controlled, so when your upshifting in the manual mode, the computer detects the gear lever and instigates the change.
Will the revs be manually controlled, i.e. will the rider still have to blip the throttle or will the computer do that for the rider.
That brings up my next question. In the auto modes will the bike be going up the gears like a normal bike or will it go up the gears according to speed, engine load and throttle input.
I imagine it would be pretty weird riding along just twisting the throttle and listening to the bike going brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr….brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr…etc without out feeling some jerk of the new gear ratio engaging.
Kinda like your riding pillion.
What are the advantages bar fuel economy. Also could this system be adapted to be a quickshifter?
nortley says
There is a little mantra that I recite to myself whenever I drive an automatic car. “Left foot be still, Left foot be still, Left foot be still…” It prevents face marks on the dash. If this bike has any lever on the left bar, and it is any sort of brake, I predict a lot of unintended skids or stoppies. Hand control issues aside, automatics ain’t my stein of brew, but I admire the thought and work that went into it. I bet it sells, too.
Paulinator says
I first read about twin clutches/split-power transmissions about 30 years ago. I wouldn’t doubt that the technology goes back even further. You want seamless power delivery at peak torque? get a Vespa…Hmm?
I’ve read that the only thing holding back the CVT in the 4 wheel world is the intangible driving experience – not technology. How about a sport bike with simulated shift points for back roads as well as the basic point-n-shoot mode.
kirill says
if it’s gonna be a sport tourer; meaning high speeds over 120mph. and if it’s gonna actually shift wicked quick, they should add couple more gears so that i can cruse economically at 120mph. well, then also an integrated valentine v1 would be a nice option too. :-))
Simon says
Before commenting on this I suggest reading up on VW DSG gearboxes, they were the first to implement this type of gearbox in cars. Dual Clutch Gearboxes can shift quicker than any other type of gearbox, so there is a big advantage for sportbikes.
There is a small weight penalty because you have an extra clutch, but the quicker shifts make up for that. VW cars with DSG are more economical than the manuals. There are no losses because of a torque convertor, there is a direct drive, do in gear they feel the same as a manual. The computer does throttle blips, I’ve driven the Golf GTI with DSG and with manual and I preferred the DSG, really crisp shifts and incredibly fast.
On a side note, even Ferrari has gone to DSG for the 458 Italia, dropping the sequential box from the F430. And the new McLaren MP4-12C will have a DSG gearbox.
Marneyman says
So has anyone ridden an Aprillia Mana 850? It’s an automatic bike that has been on the market for over a year. I have not (ridden one) but it seems like an automatic bike is just going to be a step-over scooter. I see it as problematic to fit bikes for auto and manual transmission on the same model. There will probably be specific models that are manual, and specific models that are auto. Motorcycle riders tend to be a sporty set. I see no reduction in the availability of manual bikes and even models that are shadetree mechanic friendly. Look at Mac for a new example.
DSG was developed by VW, but first seen on an Audi, as it is their habit to relese expensive new technology on their luxury nameplate.
Tom says
My brother says automatic transmissions will be the end of real men riding.
But then that’s what dad said when electric starts replaced kick starts.
And that’s what granddad said when they did away with foot clutches and tank shifts.
And that’s what great-granddad said when they moved from hand-operated to engine-driven oil pumps.
And that’s what great-great granddad said when they put engines on bicycles….
Tom says
BTW, this new dual clutch automatic, the CVTs as used on the Aprilia Mana & Suzuki Burgman, the new automatic transmission Honda DN-01 and the old semi-automatic Hondamatics of 1977-1984 ALL USE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TECHNOLOGY. Just so you know.
One issue that all automatic transmission motorcycles have is acceleration out of a corner. It is important that the transmission _not_ suddenly shift down and throw the engine into a much more potent point on the HP curve, breaking traction. I wonder how Honda has addressed that with this fully automatic, discreet gear transmission?
Simon says
“DSG was developed by VW, but first seen on an Audi, as it is their habit to relese expensive new technology on their luxury nameplate.”
First cars with DSG were the Audi TT 3.2 and VW Golf IV R32, appeared at about the same time. In Europe, the R32 was introduced in June 2003, the TT in september 2003.
hoyt says
There is a really good video of this in action.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBfsCSZwsAc
As cool as this is (and good for the industry to get more riders on 2 wheels), I like using 2 hands and 2 feet. Options are good.
mark says
The advent of “flappy paddle gearboxes” on motorcycles, introduced on Honda’s technology flagship, the VFR. Good news on many fronts, even if I prefer a manual transmission.
Technically, I have very little doubt that this will be a winner. It will offer faster shifting, smoother shifting, and, with launch control, very quick starts for everyone. It avoids the main problem of cars versions, trying to reverse park (no reverse), and I see very little down-side.
Apart from the existential one. I clutchless up-shift (CBR900-929) and there is a lot of satisfaction in getting the shift just-so. The same with timing the downshifts to avoid rear-end lock-up under hard braking (no slipper clutch). Those pleasures will be gone. And I guess that is no different to the loss of fettling, carb tuning, and all the other things that make motor-cycling what it is. I do wonder what Prisig would label his book now? “Zen and the Art of Taking your Motorcycle to the Dealer”? Not sure that would be a big seller. 😉
Marneyman says
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badge_engineering
From Wikipedia-
“As an effort to place Audi as a premium marque, Volkswagen frequently introduces new technologies in Audi-branded cars before fitting them to more mainstream products (such as Direct-Shift Gearbox).” Not saying Wikipedia is infallable or the final say on anything, but I had happened to read that earlier today and it dovetailed nicely with some an earlier question mark.
As for the differing technologies, I was simply commenting on the effect of automatic vs. manual transmissions on motorcycles’ market and user perception. You did that much better than me Tom in your response immediatly below mine. I would never pretend to know thing one about what goes on inside a transmission housing. It could be black magic for all I know.
todd says
Count me in as one who thinks things are fine just the way they are. All I know is that Honda spent millions of dollars developing this faster shifting gearbox. I would have rather they spent all those resources on making a bike less expensive, simpler, and lighter. That’s what I value in life. Every one of my motorcycles shift faster and pull off the line faster than any car I’ve ever driven (within reason – there are faster cars…). Is it so important that people get jump the green light even sooner or not have to bother their poor little left hand to clutch every once in a while?
Is this just another way of taking something that was once a user-serviceable component and turning it into a dealer-only operation? I think that this is all that it’s about; bringing in more service money to the dealer.
Like I’ve said before, I’ve never owned an automatic but I can’t remember the last time I had to shift manually. It all happens subconsciously and my subconscious is tied directly into my brain anticipating my decisions.
-todd
hoyt says
There is a good % of people interested in riding, but do not pursue it further due to shifting.
Tin Man 2 says
I guess its good to have options, But myself, I find shifting my bike is one of the most satisfying aspects of riding. Matching speeds on a smooth downshift, bliping down before a corner and upshifting with precision are all big parts of the expierence for me.
Scotduke says
One less reason to buy a VFR in my opinion. The VFR used to be a good bike. Over time it’s gained more and more technology and, for me at least, has become less and less interesting.
I’ve an automatic car now but my next will be another manual.
Simon says
User-serviceable bikes? Come on, most riders want they’re bike to start on the button and pay a dealer for servicing they’re bikes.
I am very happy with my fuel-injected, electronically ignited, abs-equipped SV 650 S. It’s a fun bike to ride, fairly cheap to buy and service. Maybe I’d like a version with a dual-clutch gearbox, my experience with cars is that they don’t take the fun away (unlike a torque-converter auto or cvt).
I really think it is a shame a majority of bikers is so afraid of real inovation, that’s why most bikes still have telescopic front forks, ABS isn’t available on sportsbikes (only exception at the moment is the CBR600RR). Most bikes still have chains, while belts are (almost) maintenance free.
I hope in this case bikes whill follow the car world and we get some cool new technology.
kneeslider says
hoyt said: “There is a good % of people interested in riding, but do not pursue it further due to shifting.”
An excellent point. Think outside the “already riding” box and look at potential new riders who would find this easier. And for every current rider that would “never” own an automatic, how many would love it?
Jonathan Camacho says
That is an amazingly compact design, with the coaxial clutches, compared to a regular DSG.
If it’s similar to other transmissions, then in neutral,
gears 1, 3 (slidable), 4 (slidable), 2 are locked to the coaxial mainshaft
gears 5, 6 are floating on the mainshaft
gears 1, 3, 4, 2 are floating on the countershaft
gears 5, 6 (slidable) are locked to the countershaft
by sliding gears 5 and 6 (countershaft) back and forth, to lock with adjacent gears, any of 1, 3, 4, 2 can be selected.
by sliding gears 3 and 4 (mainshaft) back and forth, to lock with adjacent gears, any of 5 and 6 can be selected.
There’s an alternate picture at http://www.gizmag.com/honda-dual-clutch-transmission-large-displacement-sport-motorcycles/12763/picture/93985/
FREEMAN says
Not that it isn’t interesting, because it is, but it looks like more crap to fix. You can have it.
Tin Man 2 says
I sure dont think riders are ‘afraid of inovation’, maybe sick of to much tech in their lives is closer to the truth. I dont see anybody complaining about electropic ignition, now that it is reliable. The same with F.I. instead of a carb, many who are mechanically inclined liked to adjust their own carb without spending hundreds on Black Boxes. ABS will help in the rain, but many times a skilled rider can outpreform it on the street. Front forks work very well, The expensive alternataves have all failed to live up to their promises. Many people resent Tech just for the cool factor and prefer to wait for a real improvement before jumping on the band wagon, many of us like to be involved as much as possible with our riding. There is room for both types out there.
nobody says
There is something hilariously stupid about people complaining about technology – FROM THEIR (or the public library’s?) COMPUTER.
Sooner or later, it is time for an awful lot of people to accept that they are old in some way or another and are just passing the time ’til death – and that anything new isn’t intended for you anymore. You guys (?) are stuck in a rut doing the same thing over and over and over again. Most boring. There have been enough bikes made just the way you liked them in the last century to keep you happy for what’s left of your lives.
DaveR says
Got the new Speed Triple and while it is manual, there is so much computer on this thing it is not funny.
If a guy says “I can tune your carbs and re-jet for more power”, my guess is you go for it.
The FI and engine control is just 21st century the same thing.
If a clutch is good (If you ever had to ride without one, you know they are good to have), then maybe two clutches and a little electronic black magic is better.
I ride since July 17, 1960. I think riding is much more fun that fixing.
Have a nice day.
WRXr says
Fantastic! The performance improvement of DCT on cars is undeniable.I say bring it on! I’ll take the performance improvement.
Tin Man 2 says
Nobody, Stupid? No, Im afraid stupid is so many thinking more Tech will make them a better rider when the big Sportbikes are so far beyond their skill leval they will never catch up. Unfortunetly we are shoveling up Sport Bikes and their riders all to often. Hopefully ABS will filter down to more bikes as time goes on, this will help average riders cope with adverse conditions better. God knows I would not want to outlive anymore Young Riders then I already have.
FREEMAN says
@ nobody and DaveR:
I, and many more out there, not only like to ride, but also like to work on and service my ride. The simpler the ride, the easier, generally cheaper, and therefore more enjoyable it is to work on. This extends to my truck as well. I don’t like dealers or service shops. There’s nothing wrong with that and like Tin Man 2 says, “there’s room for both.”
hipsabad says
The bikes of MotoGP have telescopic forks, the bikes in supercross have telescopic forks. Is HRC afraid of innovation? Is Ducati afraid of innovation? BMW have used them before and are using them again in their 1000cc sportbike. Are BMW afraid of innovating? I don’t think so. Maybe the telescopic fork is used because it is a better solution, not just a traditional solution.
No one is complaining about technology here, they are comparing technologies. That’s different and takes experience. That’s what makes Rossi such a brilliant racer – he’s very good at sorting out the feedback to find the best combination of technical application. Rossi’s got the right attitude. A bad attitude like that of Nobody gets one nowhere except into a hilariously stupid shouting match which one will eventually lose to a one louder than he.
Maybe, just maybe, people who can’t figure out shifting on a motorcycle are people who shouldn’t be even riding the things, especially in an emergency situation.
nobody says
I take it then that The Kneeslider takes replies via telegram?
The Zoomsplat fanboys do make a deadly joke out of their chosen rides – but they aren’t the only ones who ride them. Every bike out there can kill its rider – the first new motorcycle transmission shifting system without a loss in performance since the demise of the Steam Locomotive era will not kill anyone. And if you can’t fix this one, I doubt you could fix any clutch at all.
I don’t do dealerships, either – except when I worked for them – which included EFI & ABS work. Bolts is bolts, volts is volts, and bits is bits – if you have the money to buy the tools AND the brains to use them, then any new technology merely means you just might have to spend a few hours learning something. Not all tools are chrome plated and make clangy noises. I find it hilarious that someone will point at the shiny rows of Snap-On wrenches costing thousands of dollars on the pegboard, yet throw tantrums when they might have to spend a few hundred on a digital tool. And don’t give me the whine about model specific tools required for “complicated technology bikes” – I spent a small fortune on Kent-Moore tools for Harleys back when I owned/rode/worked on/worked at the dealership on them. Funny how the “simple bikes” require the most special tools………..ooops, that’s an insider secret I wasn’t supposed to talk about.
Seriously Part 1: Why do people come to “MC News” sites? Are they anticipating the headline “Honda Dumps 2010 Line-Up And Brings Back The 1972 Line For Eternity”? – or – “Stale Air Cooled V-Twin Chopper Fad Replaced By Stale Air Cooled Single Cafe Racer Fad”? – or – “Kick Starters Mandatory For All Motorcycles – Electric Starts Banned” – or – …………………
Seriously Part 2: Do those that love working on “simple” bikes have any experience working on “complicated” ones? I would think that if the joy comes from the working, then more work is better, right? Doing a Honda CBX top end once was just like working on Harleys – just a lot of Harleys at once, thats all.
Seriously Part 3: Are any of you going to run out and buy this bike if it has an old fashion clutch and transmission shifting system. Didn’t think so. So what’s the negativity really all about?
David says
There is something to be said for saving the incompetent from themselves, bring back the kick starter and carb. I think I’ll do an experiment at the next bike run and see how many guys can figure out how to start my 70 FX. I’m betting not many without grey hair. The oldwing guys will love this and maybe Honda will figure out how to make sure the clutch doesn’t high-side the rider or throw him on his ass in the rain. I am all for technology, it wont diminish my riding experience if Honda sells millions of them. I just don’t need one on my 02 FLTRI
todd says
I’m not naive enough to think that more technology will make me a better or faster rider. I can’t count the number of people I’ve known that always talked about “upgrading” their bike because they couldn’t keep up with the main pack. Not too long ago I went on a ride with a group of unfamiliar riders, you know the typical ZX6R type group. I was leading the pack through familiar roads – a couple times I stopped at forks in the road so that they would catch up and continue the correct route. At the end the conversation centered around liter bikes and upgrading to better suspension, radial brakes, and more power; generally how they had a difficult time keeping up with me. Ironic this, I was riding my 1973 BMW R75. I told them I would upgrade to a SV650 or Ninja 650 as soon as I was more capable than my existing bike.
Don’t get me wrong, I love technology, especially technology that make bikes more pleasant to own and ride. To think that monobloc radial calipers, Ohlins suspension, more power, and mass centralization will make you a better rider is plain stupid.
-todd
Jim says
Bet it will be expensive to fix when it breaks.
PaulN says
It’s funny, when I talk to most people about riding, their first complaint is ‘it’s too hard, I don’t want to think that much.’ Personally, I enjoyed learning the particulars of nudging a motorcycle into action, much like I enjoy driving a car with a clutch and manual gearbox, but there is a reason why most vehicles sold come with automatic transmissions.
If this technology can get more people riding, then it may be a good thing. Of course, the technology must be reliable or it won’t hold up. I can see the classifieds from 2014 now: ‘For Sale, 2010 Goldwing, runs great, just needs a clutch. Easy fix, must sell.’
Simon says
Jim, this tech will probably feature on Honda’s new VFR 1200 V-4 sports tourer, so the bike will be expensive. I really don’t think servicing it would be cheaper if it had a conventional transmission.
Nicolas says
I concurr with Todd, as cool a this technology is, I’d rather see Honda having spent all this $$ in developping materials, manufacturing processes and design that makes bike 1/2 the weight.
Then, if you can’t figure out how to manage a clutch on a bike, I think you don’t deserve a bike and you stay on your couch play with your Xbox.
nobody says
Todd,
I find it impossible to believe that a “pack” of ZX6R riders are following you anywhere. The corner workers are waving the brown flag.
Let’s take your logic the other direction – is a single shoe front drum brake, girder fork with friction damper at the front/plunger rear end, and mass decentralization going to make you a worse rider?
That you can’t do any better than what your /5 airhead allows merely says the new stuff isn’t about you.
mark says
My vote for new technology would be a motor producing around 130bhp at the crank and sucking a real 80 – 100 mpg. Surely if they can get 180bhp and 40mpg they can do this.
hoyt says
“Maybe, just maybe, people who can’t figure out shifting on a motorcycle are people who shouldn’t be even riding the things, especially in an emergency situation.”
Bull.
Honda will recoup the R&D money in many ways. Hopefully the % of riders on any given street goes up due to a new crop of riders taking to this automatic transmission in various models, which would be….
Good for riding (the more people on 2 wheels the more aware people will become). Good for the industry (the more people on 2 wheels, the more money for manufacturers to develop stuff you don’t even know you’d like, yet)
The complaints about this development are in parallel to a crusty HD rider grunting in disapproval of the VRod. Where did Honda state they were replacing all transmissions across their entire line-up with this transmission?
Honda recently released the air-cooled CB. How were they able to do this? Because they have been innovating for years which helped them to sell product, which helps them to build whatever they see fit for the market.
As Nobody stated a couple of times: There are plenty of bikes to suit our needs in our lifetime (manual shifting, tele-diving, air-cooled, whatever). This technology is not for you. But, it might be when you’re an arthritic 75 yr old geaser and staying on 2 wheels helps you still feel alive.
todd says
Let me put it another way;
I’ll upgrade when everyone on “faster” machinery has passed me up. As long as there are more riders behind me than in front of me I feel I’m doing OK. The fact that there was a pack of riders trying to keep up with me on my Gummi Kow tells me I’m doing OK and my choice of bike is appropriate.
Most roads I’m on tires are the limiting factor. Not brakes, not power, not tricky suspensions. I’ve found that as long as you have good tires you can keep up or lead the pack on any bike (that will do at least 60 mph) depending on your skill level. If you are riding on roads that require more top speed you’re on the wrong roads. If you find you need more powerful breaks you need to learn how to carry more corner speed. If you find you need fully adjustable suspension then you’re reading too many magazines.
-todd
FREEMAN says
@ nobody:
I guess the keyboard expert has spoken. I assume the rest of us must like what you like or share your belief to have any opinion or skills at all, hmm? Seems like the only one being negative about anything is you. Don’t tell us how to have an opinion and I won’t tell you where to shove it.
Hawk says
I guess we have to bend to technology don’t we? Remember the old crash boxes? You needed a bit of skill to find the next gear …. in fact, many large highway trucks still have these … and I love ’em. Anyway, to make things easier, they invented syncromesh which means even the klutz could find the next gear …… quietly.
Someone decided that a slush pump with a planetary gear system (They must have been looking at Henry’s Model T, eh?) would dumb down the process even more. I remember when Jim Hall showed up with an “automatic” in the tail of his Chapparell … knocked everyone on their butt! But it was quick and kept the power on for longer.
The F1 engineers got into the game too. But they had budgets where a million dollars to save a tenth of a second was good value. We had already progressed into electronic engine management so the idiot no longer had to rely on valve crash to tell him when to shift …. the little box just put the fire out! Of course he could still blow it up on a down-shift so they connected the little box with paddles and solenoids …. and wired in the RPM sensor. Shucks …. no more sudden burst of oil smoke and engine bits to sweep off the track!
Even those big highway rigs are using the auto-shifters and indeed, full automatics now. But a lot of the old timers still consider the 18 speed crash boxes the ONLY way to go.
I tried a Honda car with a CVT thing in it. Like driving with a rubber band …. couldn’t wait to park it!! But an auto-shifter where you can take control and play at will, is definitely faster and saves the muscles in your left leg … or arm.
I’ve talked to many an airline pilot who laments the fact that they got into the business 30 years ago because they liked to fly. Today, they’re glorified computer operators and figure the day is coming when they’ll do it from a small room somewhere. Come to think of it, how much faster would those Moto-GP bikes be if the rider was sitting in the pits? Bravery would be a budget item ….
I guess technology is going to march on despite anything we can do. It’ll sell more cars and bikes and allow more incompetent (or maybe just lazy) people to use them. I think there is a difference between those who enjoy handling a piece of mahinery and those who do it just to go somewhere. Remember too, that these complex gizmos give mechanics (at least those beyond the re & re artist) job security.
(Observations from a 73 yr old greaser ….)
hoyt says
Freeman/Todd etc. –
Does this transmission affect any bike you currently own or intend to buy the rest of your riding days?
Are “simple” bikes like the Bonneville, Ducati Sport Classics, Bullet, Katana, etc. & just about anything from Guzzi and HD still made as new models?
There are plenty of bikes available that you can buy new or used that you can service yourselves. And there will be for the rest of your days. On the other hand, technology has advanced beyond your means on certain bikes for the last 20 years.
todd says
Maybe I’m reacting against a general trend. No, not one of the bikes you mention are simple – that is, compared to what they once were. The closest to a good, simple bike would be the V7 Guzzi.
With every new auto-shifting Honda that comes out (or linked braking, multi-cylinder, larger capacity, etc, take your pick) there is usually one less good old simple bike available. Why doesn’t Yamaha sell the SR500/400? Why is the XR650L about the only simple Honda (Nighthawk 250 doesn’t figure in my account for some reason) available? Not that I’d buy one but consider how Buell is removing simple bikes from their lineup in exchange for more complicated (i.e. more expensive) ones.
I buy old used bikes because that’s all I can find that is light, simple, economical, unpretentious, affordable, etc. My R75 and my GB500 have tires that cost less than $100 each, last 10-15000 miles, grip good, and I can easily put them on by hand myself. Both bikes get over 50 mpg, insurance is a little more than $50/year in the SF Bay Area, they’re reliable, look good, run good, stop good, handle good, and are appreciating in value. I seldom go over 80 mph so power is not a problem (though they’ll do around 100). They can also apparently hold their own against more sophisticated sport bikes on the right roads with the right company. They out accelerate 99% of the cars at the signal, and I’ve never had to go into debt over them; either buying or fixing them. I can’t say any of the same for something new, especially a 2010 VFR.
Manufacturers keep shoving this stuff down our throats whether we want it or not. There are not many choices if you want light, cheap, simple, good.
If automatic transmissions are supposed to help attract entry level riders, why are they on $14,000 top-of-the-line bikes? I would think if that was the reasoning, the little Nighthawk 250 would have an automatic. I think it’s more about trying to attract the type of customer who wants all the wiz-bang gizmos on his bike, regardless of price. Does this make this bike better? It might for you. For those of us just trying to find a good bike that won’t break the bank the choices are disappearing.
-todd
todd says
OK, I missed that you included the Bullet but you can’t buy those here anyway.
-todd
FREEMAN says
@ hoyt
I don’t really see how it makes any difference. I’m all for keeping it simple and reliable; and I, like many of you, love technology. Which is why I really like the appeal of electric bikes, even with their numerous limitations. This transmission, granted has great benefits given the right application, is just something I can not see being absolutely necessary for everyone, especially when one clutch for all gears has been just fine so far. I cannot see the benefit to the average rider aside from the fact that it’s an automatic. Just seems like more parts and complexity to something that wasn’t really a problem to begin with. The benefit this transmission provides would probably be seen more noticeably in a racing application.
Bob Nedoma says
Rode a 1929 NSU 650 from 1964 on, I was much younger than the bike. When something broke down, I was able to fix it myself, each and every time. The bike was black, but it sure wasn’t a “black box’. My next bike was Norton Atlas 650, bored to 750, as easy to fix, (tune, maintain) as wiping a baby’s bottom.
All I am saying is: you did not need a fortune to ride, and that is what is changing.
hipsabad says
Buddy’s got a chip on his shoulder.
Something wrong with a DCT transmission on a bike?
Nothing wrong with a rider preferring one.
A rider prefers a simple bike, prefers less weight, maybe even less ‘performance’?
OK, sure, why not? It doesn’t bother me.
Who’s making this a personal matter? and why?
Boog says
As far as the idea that an automatic tranny on a bike will attract more riders, I have my doubts…I don’t think that the old Hondamatic brought hordes of “shiftless” riders into the fold in days of yore.
People who start riding for that reason will soon discover that motorcycling requires more than shifting to enjoy (or put up with, to be more precise).
It’s kind of like ragtop jeeps. They are fun in the summer, but when the weather turns nasty in the fall they start trading those uncomfortable things in on something more “climate-controlled”.
People who want economy and are thus inclined to eyeball motorcycles for alternative transportation might be better served to buy something on the order of the “Smart Car” or the like…UNLESS you realize that biking can at times be a challenge due to the weather, dirty clothes when you get to work, et cetera…and can put up with the challenges for the pure enjoyment of riding.
Don’t get me wrong. I would not be against a nice auto tranny if it did not compromise performance (or on a really comfortable touring machine), but I would probably buy the “straight shift” model if I had the choice.
I had a Polaris 4 wheeler with that really strange variable pulley width transmission, and it worked ok, but was unsettling to get used to…it was a “combine” (harvester) teansmission according to some old-time mechanics.
hoyt says
Freeman : “I’m all for keeping it simple and reliable…” & “This transmission…. is just something I can not see being absolutely necessary for everyone..”
Exactly. It is not available on every bike, therefore it is not necessary for everyone.
hipsabad – not sure who you are referring to, but no one said anything against simple bikes, especially not me since I absolutely love my air-cooled Guzzi. The comments about liking manual shifts (which I agree) started with ZRExer, but that is different than Todd’s sweeping generalizations. Those generalizations would have merit IF every single bike from every single OEM were equipped with this transmission tomorrow. Unlikely the case for at least a whole generation and the comments fail to realize it, which prompted the comments about technology moving on in various ways as it always does in every industry. No, it is not about any chip or personal matter other than staying on topic.
As for the so-called “trend” Todd is talking about. In any given era, there is always someone pushing the envelope. This “trend” is over a hundred years old. Anyone think Glen Curtiss should have left well enough alone? That v8 certainly wasn’t necessary. BTW, the above transmission still allows the rider to manually shift. If you can’t fix the transmission, then there are dozens of other bikes you can buy used and new that would offer the DIY wrench satisfaction (assuming they could fix every bit on an old bike in the first place).
The sky is falling and all of your transmissions are being confiscated & replaced with the honda transmission above. Damn them!
Sean says
I really like the idea of left grip manual shifting,
with automatic clutch. When i’m riding in the twisties,
I like to keep my weight on the balls of my feet, because
it’s much harder to shift your weight from side to side
if you’ve got your insteps on the pegs. I also try to grip
the tank with my knees, since a good lower-body lock
to the bike helps me stay loose on the handlebars.
But every time i need to shift, I have to take my weight
off my left foot, move the peg to the instep so my toe
will reach the lever, and then shift back after the change.
While i’m doing this, my lower-body lock to the bike is
broken, and it’s harder to shift my weight to the inside
without making unwanted steering inputs.
AND, whenever i need to upshift while leaned way over in
a left-hand turn, it’s pretty tricky to get my toe under the
lever without snagging pavement.
If I could do shifting with my left hand, all these problems
would eliminated, and my riding would be that much better
as a result.
So i find the “left-grip paddle” shifting system to be really appealing.
With that, (and with Honda’s linked-ABS brakes 🙂 I would never
have to take my toes off the pegs, which would be ideal for me.
But why paddles? Why not a grip that rotates, just like on the right?
Blip it one way to toggle an upshift, the other way to downshift?
Make it spring-loaded, so it only shifts when you mean it to.
With turn signal, horn, headlight hi-lo and flash controls already,
the last thing we need is another pair of buttons on the left grip.
hipsabad says
Nobody is the person I was referring to: “There is something hilariously stupid about people complaining about technology – FROM THEIR (or the public library’s?) COMPUTER.
Sooner or later, it is time for an awful lot of people to accept that they are old in some way or another and are just passing the time ’til death – and that anything new isn’t intended for you anymore. You guys (?) are stuck in a rut doing the same thing over and over and over again. Most boring. There have been enough bikes made just the way you liked them in the last century to keep you happy for what’s left of your lives.”
No one is “complaining about technology”, whatever that means. I’m not old but it seems that young people could be accused of “just passing the time ’til death”, too. “You guys (?) are stuck in a rut doing the same thing over and over and over again. Most boring.” Huh? How do you know this? Because of a shifting preference? Finally, “…for what’s left of your lives.” That phrase reveals the personal animosity of his comments, referring to those with other preferences than his as doomed and useless. That post of Nobody’s isn’t what I would call staying on topic.
Ando says
Hmmm what to think?
I’ve been riding on the street for 26 years and more than 20 of them on GSXRs but the only automatic bikes I ever rode were mopeds and keystone minibikes 😉
I don’t like the idea of people riding sport bikes if they don’t have the coordination or skills to handle a clutch and gears. I’m sorry but I would suggest that they get into something a little tamer than sport biking. I’ve seen too many people crash and burn because they had more dollars than sense and it does nothing good for the motorcycle community at large.
That said, I don’t have a problem with the idea of the automatic tranny. This is along the same line of thought as paddle shifters in race cars and air shifting for drag racers. I worked in a tranny shop many lifetimes ago and there is no way any manual can shift faster than a modern automatic transmission. I’d like to give it a run. I change my own clutches on my current carburetted, oil cooled monsters so I guess this bike isn’t for me but I’d still take it for a good run!
hoyt says
agree. There are plenty of people interested in riding, but don’t pursue it further due to shifting. This transmission put into other models could change that demographic. That is a big difference between the Hondamatic and this development. It can appeal to 3 groups of riders depending on the models it goes in…
1. Riders interested in technical developments and quick-shifting application
2. Beginning/returning riders
3. indifferent riders who recognize they can manual shift, quickshift, or auto depending on the circumstance. Many of these riders most likely never intend to wrench on a modern bike at the time of sale, regardless of this transmission. (At least beyond oil changes….and there are thousands of riders that fit that skill level.)
Woodman West says
Yamaha just dropped the AE auto clutch form thier FJR1300 sport touring line.
And it was not becuase it sold so fast they could not keep up with production, if you know what I mean.
If you want an automatic I suggest a minivan. Motorcycles have clutchs.
DW says
I think auto bikes will be awesome. Best example to illustrate why auto bikes would work is to look the the 5 series BMW motor vehicle (or similar type). In these cars you have the option of putting the gear lever to one side and then manually shifting like a seqeuntial gearbox, or leave the gear lever in the normal position for fully automatic. I have never ever come across any of my mates or colleagues with these kinds of vehicles who actually use the gear lever in the sequential mode i.e reaching down for every gear change and making it happen yourself. They may have tried it the first day they got the car, but ineviatbly they leave the lever in the fully automatic postition and enjoy the comfort of fully auto. Give Bikers this option and they too will soon tire of shifting themselves and they’ll also learn to leave it over to the electronics.
Mike says
To all those ignorant riders. Has any one of you actually considered that this bike will allow riders with disabilities to ride again. I myself permanently lost the use of my left arm in a crash. I’d actually like to ride again some day. So if you don’t like it just don’t buy it.