The Kneeslider

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Harley Davidson Tries Crowdsourcing Their Advertising

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Harley Davidson crowdsourcing advertisingWell here’s something, Harley Davidson, as you may know, recently fired was dropped by its longtime advertising agency Carmichael Lynch. But instead of just hiring another conventional agency, they’ve decided to crowdsource, getting ideas from many directions from thousands of people to set the tone for their future advertising and marketing campaigns. It’s all explained in the press release below, … sort of, but how well it all turns out remains to be seen, which, according to the release, will be early 2011.

Now, if they would just crowdsource some ideas for new models, they might REALLY have something.

Press release follows:

HARLEY-DAVIDSON ANNOUNCES NEW CREATIVE MODEL WITH CUSTOMERS TAKING THE LEAD
Motor Company Turns to Crowdsourcing for New Creative Campaigns; Enlists Additional Partners to Leverage Ideas

MILWAUKEE – Harley-Davidson Motor Company has begun a new chapter of marketing communications for the iconic brand, becoming the first major marketer to use crowdsourcing as the source of its main marketing creative development, and creating a new agency support structure – what it calls a “Creativity Model.”

“We don’t lead with agencies, we lead with customers,” said Harley-Davidson Senior Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer Mark-Hans Richer. “That’s why we’ve created a new approach for how we engage our customers through the Harley-Davidson brand. In the U.S. we’re number one in on-road market share with every customer segment, including with young adults and women, but we know we can do even better to reach them.”

Harley-Davidson recently split with ad agency-of-record Carmichael Lynch after a 31-year relationship. “The split marked an official end to the typical ‘one-size-fits-all’ agency of record model for us and this new model enables Harley-Davidson to unlock the creativity of our passionate customers and other fans,” Richer said.

“We’ve always listened to our customers,” added Richer. “It only makes sense for us to tap into their passion, as well as the ideas they openly share with us to bolster our brand, rather than keeping our creativity bottled in the creative department of an agency of record.”

Harley-Davidson’s new Creativity Model starts with Victors & Spoils, a new type of agency based on the principles of crowdsourcing. Through Victors & Spoils, Harley-Davidson will draw on the ideas of thousands of passionate brand fans around the world to help guide the direction of the brand’s creativity. As longtime enthusiasts of Harley-Davidson themselves, the principals of the Boulder, Co.-based agency took matters into their own hands to help instigate this new direction, and on their own prepared an open brief on the shop’s proprietary work-creation platform, The Squirrel Fight (https://victorsandspoils.com/squirrelfight) on September 1st.

Approximately 2,000 creatives and strategists from around the world received the brief and 650 ideas were submitted by 160 Squirrel Fight participants – the largest outpouring of creativity Victors & Spoils has ever received for any project.

“We saw more great ideas in a one hour meeting than we might see in an entire year under a conventional agency model,” said Richer. “It was immediately obvious that we had a new approach, one that’s a reflection of the brand’s long history of cultivating fans and innovation. Harley-Davidson has long fueled a tremendous passion among our fans and we now have a massive creative outlet at the ready.”

While the Creativity Model starts with the customer-generated results from Victors & Spoils and concepts chosen by Harley-Davidson, it then moves to what Harley-Davidson calls “The Scrum”. This is when other expert agencies from Harley-Davidson’s current roster will guide the concept through their specific expertise, such as newly-appointed Starcom which will be responsible for creativity coming through media. Other experts, depending on the challenge, will also be engaged. These teams come together around the idea and expand upon it, and there is no lead agency or “agency of record” as in a traditional model.

“The Harley-Davidson brand has always represented the individuals who aren’t afraid to go against the grain,” said Richer. “Today, we’re excited to announce that we’re building a new road to ride. This is a bold approach, and while this might intimidate some marketers, we’re proud to be living our brand not just through what we do, but how we do it.”

Harley-Davidson will continue to rely on its current marketing partners and engage them in this new process for other aspects of its business.

The new work from Harley-Davidson will debut in early 2011.

Comments

  1. Fire your agency and keep the money, then ask your customers to submit ideas for advertising to sell them the same old stuff. It’s almost brilliant, except H-D’s main demographic is fast reaching Medicare age and might soon be hanging up their domers. Harley needs to generate new markets with new models in an economy wherein real wages are decreasing with little hope of serious improvement in the foreseeable future. Potential new riders wanting the Harley mystique will have trouble scraping together the cash or financing for a Road Hog, but they might be able to spring for an entry-level Harley that retains the character of the brand but goes for a price they (and their bank) can understand. Once again Harley has a chance to leapfrog everyone, but probably won’t do much but add some chrome and stickers, juggle the letters and call it a new model.

  2. This is the wrong way to handle an icon like HD. It may work for other clients like Oakley or whatever, but the HD brand is far more delicate to handle than doing the creative work as if HD was FMCG like bread or coffee or something. I think this new agency have got their mission wrong and/or is not capable of doing their proper homework for this kind of client. It starts with a deep understanding of the brand essence and perception as well as understanding the products and their opponents in different market segments. Relying on customer creative work for all that is ….. simply too risky to be right. Even if I don’t ride a HD myself, I would never deal with the creative brief like this new agency is doing and I am deeply concerned what may come out of it all.

  3. Fire your agency, keep the money, ask the dealers for ideas that will sell H/D going forward. They are your agents in the marketplace (the ones that are still in buisness) and hear this sort of stuff all day from customers & would-be customers (if they had a product for ’em.)

  4. I don’t know, their latest commercials seem to be pretty good. I’d say they should put some of that money into R&D if they’re serious about expanding their market, but that would be like getting a morbidly obese shut in to go for a jog.

  6. Design Brief : Honda = >>> BMW = >>> Triumph = >>> Ducati = >>> Indian = >>> Small, Medium, Large, Extra Large. Maybe HD needs to expand into a market segment with a few other sizes, ie 600 -750 cc Air Cooled V-Twin to compliment their 883, 1200, and Largest. Stay away from In-line water cooled 4’s, or 3’s or 2’s, ( DUH ).
    Ducati, Aprillia, offer some competition, so ADD QUALITY. Try a younger audience with an upward age growth, then a Loyal Customer will return. My $2 dollars at age 56 was my 2 Cents at age 16.

  8. I can see mostly younger people participating in this campaign. The only thing is, most younger people I know that are interested in Harleys can’t afford new models and prefer older models anyway. I know we sound like a broken record on here, but Harley would do well with diversifying and coming out with significantly new models, like a standard-style Sportster, for example.

  9. I see several themes to reach new buyers. HD certainly doesn’t want to move away from their outlaw/rebel/non comformist/cool guy image, but here are parallel lines of thought:

    1. “The one that gotaway”…Image a period iconic bike…not just HD…that you lusted for in college or as a young person but couldn’t afford…Show a HD option and sales info. I Cannot think how mant classic cars I see today where the current owners tell me It what I alway wanted when….

    2. Nextly we have the crowd that had a bike in HS, college pre marriage and kids and could be lured back to riding again. This would be a remember your old bike the foun you had. HD could also push how much better bike are w/o Lucas electrical, Italian switch gear, kick starters, puddle of oil when you park, etc.Even more fun today… less hassle.
    Think of the fun here….your step through 50/90, RDS2, water buffalo, hornet, norton 750 & a neat sporty or VRSC

    3. Ads with Motorcycle tours…Big Sur, Blue Ridge Mountains and HD Dresssers could also result in sales.

    4. How about name for models rather than catalog alfa numerics. Who can keep track of the present lines?

    Not every HD ad has to show a good case for preventative detention. Most ads are aimed at younger folks with little buying power

    Actually these campaigns might work well for Triumph, Moto Guzz, Ducati etc.

    get ads on the sports page and TV sports events…Duh.

  10. stupid. how about producing a product that people want AND can afford. been a pipe dream for me to own new Harley for dang near 25 years. no amount af advertising gimicktry is going to make me want one or afford one any more.

  11. I wonder if one of the ideas from that meeting was to attract young people with an exciting, non-conventional sportbike brand that utilizes HD engines? FIRST TO MENTION BUELL!!!!!!

  12. “The Harley-Davidson brand has always represented the individuals who aren’t afraid to go against the grain”. What a laugh. Try building a new model once in a while. Maybe turn that H-D lump through 90 degrees and shaft driving a light weight roadster would induce some patriots to buy American.

  13. In Canada, Harley prices have always been at a premium compared to the US. When I started riding in the early 50’s, a Harley 74 went for about the same price as a mid-range Chevy. This seems to have continued over the years and I, for one, could never figure out why people would spend that much, to say nothing of the abysmal reliability.

    I bought Triumph, BSA and, more recently, Honda & Suzuki. Yes, I’ve ridden Harleys but never thought seriously about buying one.

    But hey, H-D has been around for over a hundred years …. So what the hell do I know, eh?

  14. The HD brand seems more polarizing than ever among potential buyers. The vintage ‘niche’ is not sustainable at its sole source of revenue. (in give or take 50 years)

    Compounding that problem, many riders already doubt any future modern bike from HD will compete. HD’s experience with a current model in the last 50 years has been:

    -buy a brand
    -disrespect their own Buell brand.
    -VRod (which did not meet sales expectations)

  15. not sustainable as its sole source of revenue to maintain existing size of the company or to maintain growth. They could still be around in +/- 50 years still doing only the vintage thing, but how small would the company be and how much would their bikes being selling for at those production levels?

  16. the advertising done by the customers themselves … will we see a wolf howling at the moon on a dixie flag background, with an eagle proudly flying above ? 😉

    Paul is right, the key for a company success is the product rather than the marketing, the content vs the container, but it’s a move in the right direction.

  17. I have two different feelings toward this. First, it’s a brilliant marketing plan to save money. Fire your ad agency and rely on the people buying your products to give you new advertisement ideas for free. This is partially a viral marketing approach in that if a person’s particular idea is used, they will tell their friends to go look or buy, and then they will tell their friends, ‘that was my buddy’s idea.\ So on and so forth, the viral marketing continues.
    The other thought I have is this is simply brilliant. Another case in point that Harley is listening to their consumers in how they market, what they market and where they market what.

    Over all I think it was a bold and extremely smart move on HD’s part although only time will tell who’s opinion is correct, who’s is wrong and whether this will really pay off for Harley.

  18. It would be nice for you guys to get the facts first. Harley did not fire their agency. Their agency dropped them in favor of new business.abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=11524397 •

  19. @BobG: “Their agency dropped them in favor of new business”

    You’re correct, and I actually knew that but it slipped my mind completely while writing. Thanks for the correction.

  20. It makes no sense to listen to your customers. Talk about preaching to the choir. How hard is it to understand you need to listen to people who AREN’T your customers?

    It’s almost cliche now but the most brilliant advertising scheme from a motorcycle company occurred 40 some-odd years ago: “You meet the nicest people…” That brought in NEW customers, people who weren’t already drinking the Kool-Ade. A lot of those riders are still on the road and are likely the people riding Harleys now.

    Advertising companies charge good money because they know what the hell they’re doing – and they bring in the customers. This just seems like a bad idea; fire the experts and hire the rabble. Next they’ll be trying that with their accounting and engineering…

    -todd

  22. Just read the comment about the agency dropping H-D. Imagine that, a company firing their customer! I wonder what really brought it on?

    -todd

  23. “It makes no sense to listen to your customers.”

    You’re kidding right? I’m glad your not my marketing guy.

  25. I’m a recent harley owner and just barley at that. Even a second hand and bruised Sportster 883 went for $4k, I bought it, partly for the longing allure that’s been nagging me since I was a kid. Partly cause I was sick of chain maintenance.

    So I got it, it’s a pure joy to ride, but not to own. Very fidgety, not dependable, broke down about 6 times on me now for a myriad of different reasons. I still love it (afterall, it’s a bike).

    But my other bike is a Honda Shadow 750 ACE, to which I bought for a grand less and have had 0 problems with with 5x’s the milage on the clock. Yeah, the Honda’s has more plastic, the fit n’ finish is kinda cheap, but ya know what it works? Hot or cold, even below zero, starts faster than a light bulb.

    You know who your best advertising comes from? A satisfied customer.

    Perhaps my luck isn’t the same as the majority of Sporster owners. But I know I’ll spend more time praising my success with the Honda’s in the past, and harping more about the trouble my Sporster gives me.

  26. Do the Nay Sayers even read the article before bashing Harley?? Harley is the #1 bike for all US buyers of street bikes, Not just old guys but ALL age buyers. Harley is attacking the market from both directions, Big growth in Young and Female buyers along with the expierenced mature riders that still favor Harleys 4 to 1 in the U.S. If you want a Crotch rocket go ahead and buy one, when you grow up HD will still be here for you.

  27. I wonder if the agency dropped them because you can only come up with so much material for a product that never changes.

    I wonder if they can find a new ad agency in India?

  28. 1. Expand on the one part of Harley Davidson’s heritage that’s still underutilized: The XR750 racers of the 60-70’s. They got a good start with the XR1200 but they need some smaller displacement models. Art directors will eat them up in fashion and film. The smaller XR’s will serve as HD’s new entry bikes. Bring the XR1200 Cup to the USA and promote the hell out of it.
    2. Expand on the psuedo bobbers like the 48 and the Nightster. Try to capitalize on the growth of the hipster/ratbike/dirtbag crowd.
    3. Reinforce the touring bike market. It’s where a lot of the existing base will end up before they get too old to ride. Sponsor tour packages, create a touring television show for the Travel or similar channel. Have a lightweight Sportster-based touring bike in the line up.

  29. The main problem I see with this approach is they ask followers of the brand to advertize to themselves. Much like “Mirror, Mirror on the wall…” you can’t go wrong telling yourself just how good you are. In which case you never really change. Good luck with that.

  30. Why would anyone buy an aircooled, two valve, pushrod bike anyway? I have a 30 year old honda single cylinder dirtbike with 4 valves and overhead cam. The last major engine redesign for Harley was when they canned the flathead. The basic engine configuration hasn’t changed except for fuel injection, more electronics and a few mechanical changes over the years. With the exception of the V-Rod, its still the same old bike your Grandpa rode. I have 9 motorcycles and would only buy a Harley if they made some dramatic changes.
    I hope that new marketing strategy works well in India too. Maybe they haven’t grown tired of the bad boy image Harley has been trying to milk for the last 3 or 4 decades.

  31. Harley Davidson should spend zero on advertising and pass the savings on to the
    buyer {rider} People will allways buy there bikes that’s just the way it is . I wonder how much they have wasted over the years ? As for making smaller bikes to attract new riders. They leave that up to the whole motorcycle industry . When you suck at something and people buy your product anyway. Why should you advertise or expand anyway ? I stopped down to the dealer the other day and he told me ,”Were not getting
    two g’s over list anymore , were taking two g’s off. ” take off a couple more and then maybe I’ll buy one, I said to the maketing /salesman/advertizer/puppet/crowdsorcing/agent FE

  32. Harley turning to its customers for crowdsourcing is just a stunt that is being orchestrated by a new marketing/advertising agency, but it may work. There is nothing people like more than giving their opinion on the internet.

    Harley’s real challenge is that motorcycles are a luxury good in the US, with an aging declining market.

    I don’t have sales figures, but it looks like the biggest growth is (and some people have waited for this for a long time) in small displacement bikes and scooters, and least in terms of new models.

    Harley could never do a scooter, but it could do a smaller displacement bike with one cylinder. Like the Buell Blast, but with higher spec equipment and Harley appropriate styling.

    A one cylinder bike would help Harley in India and Latin America also. In those countries motorcycles are not a luxury, but Harleys are. A one cylinder Harley could be a slightly premium, but not unobtainable, alternative to the other motorcycles in those markets.

  34. Harley owners are a strange group to figure out.I worked as a bike mechanic for many years and fixed just about every brand of bike.Harleys where one of the most unreliable bikes around at the time and needed constant tinkering.For some reason the owners put up with it and always said Harleys where the best.For most part the Japanese bikes where totaly dependable with only the occational breakdown,but they always got labled Jap Crap by Harley riders.
    Things hav’nt changed a great deal today,and this still remains one of the worlds greatest misteries.Put a Harley badge on a nice new japanese Vtwin and people will come up and complement you on what a nice bike you have and ramble on about yesteryear and how they knew someone with a nice old Harley.Put the japanese badge back on and they won’t give the bike a second glance.Go figure ???

  35. Hum…
    Not sure on this
    Ask people want they want and they will tell you – whether Harleys or Hondas or the latest gizmo
    Ask them to actually buy it.. (with their own money) thats another matter..

  36. Well lets see, Harley outsells the closest competitive street bike (Yamaha) by a 3 to 1 margin in the U.S., yet on the internet sites the bashers out number the Harley riders 3 to 1. I guess this means the Harleys are out riding while the bashers are typing. Have at it boys, Harley needs your wisdom on how to sell their products.

  37. HD Depends(no pun intended) almost entirely on a Borg Collective type customer(you will be assimilated). New products don’t work for them, as there is too much competition with way more engineering prowess. This archaic company will dye a sorry death when It’s customers can no longer remember how to find there way home.

  38. Harely’s success for the past 40 years has been based on advertising and promoting a bad-boy image among riders. Its products, while greatly improved during the same time, still suffer from a variety of ailments and can never be called truly reliable. Every rider of Japanese touring bikes I have talked to tells tales of Harley-riding friends who stayed home during weekend rides because their bikes were in the shop, or who ruined a ride because their Harleys broke down. H-D riders tolerate this to keep the mystique, but up-and-coming riders in the 25-35 age bracket might not. They’re accustomed to products that simply work and don’t break. That demographic is as different from the current aging Boomers as Boomers are from their grandparents. They’re accustomed to change and technological excitement, and they don’t have a lot of disposable income. The old, “chrome-and-hot-leather” images won’t go very far with them. They’re loyal to any latest affordable new thing, and trying to sell them an expensive old thing will be a tough sale, indeed. Look at Pontiac, once General Motor’s “excitement” division; it sold performance cars to young Boomer drivers who craved the sexy image of themselves driving a GTO or Firebird. Those loyal Boomers now drive Toyotas and Accords. Pontiac is gone. Harley-Davidson should take a hard look at that.

  39. Two pronged approach:

    Continue to build sportsters, and keep the prices low for the hipsters.

    Build boatloads of trikes to keep the old duffers on the road a bit longer.

  40. Wow. Most seem equally concerned, (upset), that Harley will continue on it’s present path of EVIL……or will wither away and DIE! because they allegedly refuse all this sage advice. How do you stand on both sides of that fence, and still profess intelectual purity? Look deep within,,,my children!!

  41. As my moniker suggests, I ride a BSA B50, hardly an icon of reliability. I love it nonetheless because it’s a fun bike, but I don’t rely on it to do anything but break. It was built by a company with a pathological obsession to do things as they always had done, and even when BSA was the world’s largest motorcycle manufacturer with plenty of ready cash, it steadfastly refused to invest in new technology, OHC engines and new production equipment. Company management believed its loyal customers would buy their leaking, unreliable, vibrating machines despite clear evidence those customers were flocking to Japanese bikes. Toward the end, BSA had no money for R&D, factories full of worn-out machinery and a restive workforce. It tried “lifestyle” advertising that worked only until buyers discovered the bikes were total junk compared to new Hondas. BSA has been gone 37 years. I’m just sayin’.

  42. As an old duffer, dannyb278, hopefully you will be old some day too. Some of us oldtimers have more riding experience than you’ll ever have. And I’m not talking just Harley Davidson. How many bikes have you owned? How many do you own now? Do you even ride? If it weren’t for the older generation riding bikes all these years, you wouldn’t have the technology advances that you have today. Show some respect, punk.

  43. BSA has been gone 37 years. I’m just sayin’.

    What your saying is BS. HD has been around for 105+ years. I’m not saying it’s the perfect motorcycle, cause ithey’re not. There isn’t one! To be around that long, they obviously are doing something right. You scmexperts that talk about how bad things are there, better take another look. I’m just sayin’.

  44. B50 Jim,
    Believe me, I understand. I just think we get a little carried away sometimes. “Harley friends who can’t go, or ruin a ride because their bikes break down.”
    Really?
    It’s not cutting edge technology, but ever since AMF was bought out, Harley reliability and rideability has increased 10 fold in my experience.

  45. Harley would not BE around if it hadn’t gotten help from the Reagan administration in the form of stiff tariffs on big-bore imported bikes during the 1980s while Harley figured out how to build motorcycles again after AMF. True, H-D quality and reliability has vastly improved since AMF was bought out, but the AMF Harleys were some truly execrable machines.

    The entire argument here is over Harley’s new advertising campaign, and how it will reach the audience it needs to survive into its second century. I agree that 105 years is quite an achievement, but will H-D learn how to remain viable in a drastically changing market? Other manufacturers have failed to learn and lost, and that’s my point. I want an American motorcycle manufacturer to survive and thrive; I’d love to see more American bikes made in the USA — but the times they are a-changin’ in ways nobody is sure of, and Harley will have to make adjustments that it might not want to make.

  46. I find it hard to believe Harley ever paid for advertising. Why would they if they can put their logo on anyting from coffee cups to handbags and their inexplicable built-in army of loyal sheep will buy them and proudly display them?

    In Harley’s defence, they must be worried sick that their luck is going to change. Current customers’ loyalty isn’t because of some ingenius ad campaign. You just can’t explain it.

    I’ve got an older friend who had an 84 Shadow 700. Liquid cooled, tach, paid $700 cash, never had a problem in 15k miles. Then he sets aside the Shadow, buys a new Harley because he’s always wanted one. (No, I don’t know the model – its big and shiny and has an air cooled v-twin, does that help?) It’s shaken him to death for all 2000 miles he’s ridden it since 2001.

    Explain that.

  47. Since the Executive Genius’ at HD will be “assembling” Hogs in India soon, I they going to recruit Indian and Asian fans to recommend advertising schemes?

  48. They’re assembling them there for the Indian market, not the US. Our big three automakers make cars and trucks in Mexico and Canada for the US Market. I guess that’s ok with you.

  49. I’ve got an older friend who had an 84 Shadow 700. Liquid cooled, tach, paid $700 cash, never had a problem in 15k miles. Then he sets aside the Shadow, buys a new Harley because he’s always wanted one. (No, I don’t know the model – its big and shiny and has an air cooled v-twin, does that help?) It’s shaken him to death for all 2000 miles he’s ridden it since 2001.

    Explain that.

    Sounds to me like he doesn’t ride enough or he’s just scarred to ride it. If he likes riding the 84 700 Shadow that he paid $700 bucks for, so be it. Some of us prefer something a little more like an actual motorcycle.

  50. “A one cylinder bike would help Harley in India and Latin America also. In those countries motorcycles are not a luxury, but Harleys are. A one cylinder Harley could be a slightly premium, but not unobtainable, alternative to the other motorcycles in those markets.”

    I think you’re right on the small displacement bike for a part of that market. But don’t kid yourself, there are a lot of well-to-do- people in India.

  53. BobG – does the light have to shine on so many of the same style of bike? Cruisers have been the cash cow for decades in certain parts of the world, which is great for HD (hundreds of millions in net income for several consecutive years running). But, as the self-dubbed “Motor Company” there are other markets to serve that have growing profitability. These markets can also contribute goodwill towards the whole brand. Instead, we have the Buell fallout going on….

    It is great GM decided to hang onto the ‘Vette all of these years even though it is not a top seller. Comparatively, why is it so difficult for HD to apply talented engineers & ambition to build a hotrod, sport 2-wheeler? Indian would have had a great sportbike for decades by now. (yeah, yeah, but they’ve been out of business yadda-yadda. There’s more to that than just HD being “better” than them)

  54. BobG – Chill out.

    Okay, you got it. “Real motorcycles” have to cost at least 10 grand, forget quality. Congratulations, you are HD’s target demographic.

  55. So, when Harley talks about being number one among young riders, they mean those crazy kids in their 50’s, right?

  56. Iconic? Holy crap! If I had know Harley was iconic I would have purchased one long ago. It may be a 1000-pound motorcycle with 60-horsepower and a ridiculously long wheelbase, but it’s iconic.

    Sure, I can see the Oakley demographic being queried for marketing ideas. But 280-pound Harley dudes? Maybe HD should simply hire a gaggle of drywallers to come up with marketing and advertising ideas, same difference. What great idea are we going to get from the HD faithful and how competent will HD management be in parsing and selecting the suggestions? Ridiculous.

  57. Hoyt, my problem is with the people who criticize HD for the wrong reasons. They (HD) are what they are, like them or not. Some of these posters act like HD owes them something. If you don’t like their product, don’t buy it. Are they obligated to build something you might like? Hell no! They owe you nothing. Like it or not, the Buell situation was a business decision. People were not buying them.
    And no XJ6oo, I bought my first HD when I was 20. Am I there target graphic now? Sure. Am I Ducati’s target grahic? You better believe it. I’ve bought Jap bikes, Italian bikes and English bikes. All for different reasons. When people like you spew out rediculous statements focused on hatred for the HD brand, I can only conclude that you are, or have been intimidated by HD’s or certain people that ride them.
    Morotrcycling goes way beyond the performance aspect and the wheelie, stoppie poopee, peepee crowd that I imagine your into. And that’s ok. Am I into sport bikes like that? No. But I don’t criticize brands for no good reason or because a bike doesn’t suit my taste. Stop worrying about what other people ride, what certain companies make, and enjoy the bike you have.

  58. Just been watching Mad Men with my wife as it’s one of her favourite shows, which puts the whole ad agency thing in a different light. HD’s a strong brand with about as loyal a bunch of customers as you can get but the company needs some fresh ideas. I still think the Buell sub-brand was under-invested and mishandled, but what do I know?

  59. Really didn’t mean to be a jerk about it. Of course I have no business criticizing what others are into. I respect the history of Harley Davidson as an American symbol.

    My criticism of Harleys is no different from you saying the Honda Shadow isn’t an actual motorcycle. We’re all motorcycle guys and we should act like it. Save the rage for the idiots on their cell phones in their Expeditions.

  60. Well, BobG, If you want to know my life story, i’ve been riding a little over a decade (since i was 20) on street bikes. dirt bikes before that. I currently own a 2002 Triumph Bonneville America with 50 grand on the odometer, all but on by me except for 7 thousand miles. The triumph will walk a 1200 sportser any day of the week, even though it is only a 800cc bike. Besides the triumph, i own, restored and race a 1976 Yamaha 400 motocrosser and am in the process of restoring my dads 74 honda 750, a bike that destroyed any harley it came accross in the 70’s much like honda do today.
    I wrench on my own bikes, including engine rebuilds and and refuse to take a bike to a Harley Stealership for a 200.00 oil change and crappy service

    Show some respect?

    Bikes,
    1973 Honda cl360
    1983 Honda 650
    2002 Triumph Bonneville
    1974 Honda cb750
    1976 Yamaha IT400

  61. Everything that Harley should be doing Triumph has done, and been quite successful at it to boot. This in spite of the brand awareness Triumph has to the (non-motorcycling) public. That fact alone is why Harley has cachet with new riders–they don’t know anything else. When I worked in bicycle shops, we were saddled with Schwinn and GT bikes, they were sporting goods store level crap. But they sold well because it was Schwinn was a famous brand.

    However, with the premiere of shows like Cafe Racer on Discovery, the distinctly American novelty of the Chopper is waning. Unless Harley makes a radical change in product, I suspect they will as well.

  63. XJ600 – But it is different. Believe it or not, that is the first time I ever criticized a bike on a site. The old saying, “there’s an ass for every seat is true. Who am I to knock a bike I’ve never ridden that might be someone’s dream machine? I did really ride a 750 Shadow one time and didn’t think much of it. The difference is that I don’t rag on Honda because I didn’t like one of their bikes. In fact, I own an xr650l and love it.
    I do agrre with you on saving the rage for the idiots. Good point.

    dannyb278 – You don’t have to prove nothing to me. My “show some respect” remark was in regard to your “old duffers” remark. I plan to ride as many motorcycles and own as many as I can before I die. It simply gets under my skin when people say stuff about older riders, like we’re a bunch of old farts that don’t know anything. And you’re wrong about an HD oil change costing $200. They rarely go over$185!

  64. harley can skip the ads all together.if they want me
    to buy a new bike let me order one “my way”
    not just pick from the bikes they build.
    they dont need ad ideas.they need build input.
    in a free market.you get it right or go away.
    what ever happend to that other WI mfg AMC!??

  65. \However, with the premiere of shows like Cafe Racer on Discovery, the distinctly American novelty of the Chopper is waning. Unless Harley makes a radical change in product, I suspect they will as well.\

    I gotta disagree with you Derek. The word \chopper\ means different things to different people and doesn’t really refer to stock HD’s. I think HD will be around for a long time, and I think you may be surprised with their model lineup in the not to distant future. I do think the American Chopper type shows have more than run their course.and the stunt bike thing has about had it too. I’m looking forward to Cafe Racer (have not seen it yet). That sounds like it might be good.

  66. xj600 – If you ever want to read a book about why HDs are so popular in America, pick up this book: Outlaw Machine -Harley Davidson And the Search for the American Soul.
    It was written by Brock Yates and is the best explanation I’ve found on why people love these bikes. It’s out of print, but I picked up a used copy on Amazon for six or seven bucks.
    Whether you love or hate HD, it’s a good read.

  67. Some of this stuff is funny – I owned, rode, and wrenched Harleys when I was in my 20’s. Back then, it was possible to hotrod and ride them hard enough into being almost competitive. Time has moved on, as has the competition – Harley hasn’t. Now I’m owning/riding/wrenching Kawasaki Ninjas.

    The older I get, the less interested I am in dying of boredom. And nothing bores me more than Harley now. Besides, lime green and rearsets have more shock value than flaming skulls and floorboards when you have grey hair.

  68. OK, here’s my input. Make a new small-displacement Harley that ties the retro look with the fastest growing segment…a Harley scooter. What? I’m serious. I got a cheap little Chinese unit and I’m having a riot while burning about 4 bucks a week on gas. If Harley had a good scooter and produced it cheaply in India then I’d buy the brand (but not the T-shirt).

  69. Paul has a point…..

    The scooter market is blowing up! I live in South Florida, here I would easily say in the last 4 years the scooter market has quadrupled. The only real upscale model is the Vespa.

    If HD was to re-introduce Cushman, it would be a huge hit. Just like the Mini Cooper made small economy cars cool for the trendy farts. They could easily capture the youth market, and introduce them to a small displacement HD in 2-3 years.

    Shoot, I think we just gave them what they wanted.

  70. HD and BMW started building bikes with two air cooled cylinders at roughly around the same time. BMW constantly developed their bikes, especially the engines, over the decades, always introducing new technology. Harley did some minor changes and survived by selling bikes to the police force and the military in WWII. For the last 5 decades or so Harley built up the “Lonely Rider” image and milked it to mask the fact that their bikes were old fashioned and unreliable. BMW on the other hand realized early enough that they’d need more models besides just the boxer and came out with the water-cooled inline triples and fours (K75 / K100) almost 30 years (!) ago. And the new bikes fitted right in with their modern and futuristic approach. Also branching out into other segments like creating the GS series and building smaller sized bikes like the R45 showed that the Bavarians were on their toes.
    HD on the other side relied on its image, built more or less the same bikes, which worked very well for a long time, but thus positioned itself into a dead end. The completely new motor HD came out with in 1999 was the right step in the right direction, but too little too late.
    If the V-Rod would be marketed by Porsche, or by another american company, it might have been a succeess, but it had a real hard start being a Harley – the true-blue HD followers didn’t accept it because it was too “un-Harley”, meaning modern, and no “real” Harley could feature advanced technology. And the younger crowd compared it to foreign made bikes and decided to buy japanese because they are cheaper and more reliable.
    Harley then bought MV Agusta and BUELL to freshen up its image, a smart move in my opinion, but then sold them or stopped production. Too little too late!
    Compare again with what BMW has to offer these days: 650cc singles with chain drive! 800cc twins! 1000cc sport bikes that beat the japanese! And still producing the old well-known boxers, updated with the lates technology possible. Plus plenty of different models of each.
    It amazes me that it is still America’s top selling brand!

  71. A Harley scooter should be a two-stroke with a plastic body… just like it was in the 60’s; the Topper. That would be really cool and give Vespa a run for their money.

    According to William H. Davidson: “As our sales campaign gathers momentum, we confidently expect Harley-Davidson to become as prominent in the scooter field as it is in motorcycles.”

    -todd

  72. I’ve got the solution – hire Madonna’s manager, he knows how important it is to reinvent yourself to stay on top of the game!

  73. If Harley builds a 2-stroke scooter then I’ve got a simple assymetrically ported (clean) 2-stroke engine design for them.

  74. Maybe we see a Updated XLCR! since this caferacer thing maybe going mainstream. We are all passionate about motorcycles, so the best thing to do is educate people and explain your passion for riding on anybrand of motorcycles.

  75. Two points that need to be addressed:

    1. Tinman, Harley is a leader in a shrinking market. The sales numbers prove it. You focus on the “large displacement on-road” bike segment because that’s the ONLY place Harley is involved with. Look at the numbers for dual sport, off road, and scooters. Someone already mentioned that scooter sales numbers are blowing up. Harley is not a financially strong company and parroting a cherry picked statistic doesn’t change this.

    2. BobG, you talk about why people are critical of Harley when Harley doesn’t owe us anything. You are correct that Harley doesn’t owe us anything but they are not immune from criticism. The core of the criticism is this – Harley-Davidson is a fraud and we critics are under no obligation to remain quiet when we are lied to by the company and its lemming followers.

    Harley does not represent the best of America, it represents the worst of America – style over substance. What is going on in the US right now is the end result of HD style thinking. HD is a joke of a company outside its cult as the US is becoming a joke of an economy outside the country. HD’s business model is headed for ruin just as the US economic model of outsourcing jobs to China/India and giving more tax welfare money to the already rich is an economic model that will lead to ruin.

    Not every motorcyclist is a HOG wannabe. A lot of us want to WIN and we know that this takes more than PR marketing to the mindless faithful. HD leaned on Excelsior-Henderson’s supplers, which in no small part helped to shut them down, and they killed Buell when it was still profitable, not much but it was in the black. So, its bad enough that Harley is a pathetic company of quitters who cower from innovation and world class competition, they also go after companies that are different and show them up. Harley is big in the US but its only a fraction of world sales and many critics recall a time when the fastest and most technologically advanced bikes came from the US. Today, its pitiful crap like the cookie-cutter choppers and credit-card pirates who ride them that have come to symbolize all that America can do.

    So, when you people act like you’re the only real true Americans and that the POS bikes that you ride are the epitome of American engineering, we’re going to tell you that you’re full of crap. Just because you people ignore reality does not mean that you can ignore the ramifications of it.

  76. HD is only comcerned about their P&A division.
    Their profit margin comes from chrome dodads, $30 t’s
    And outragously priced leathers. Why should they care
    About motorcycles when they profit from P&A division

  78. Tom, You are wrong on so many points. Harley is GROWING market share in a shrinking market, this shows that people who want a cruiser still choose the real thing,instead of an imitation. Check the facts, Harley is the leader in sales of ALL Road Legal bikes in the U.S., for ALL age groups, young, old and female, they have recently started an out reach to attract more Hispanics and minoritys to the brand. Now this is progressive marketing that you dont find with the imitators. As a matter of fact the only growing bike companys are the ones who follow HDs example, Triumph, Ducati and BMW have all adopted the HD marketing plan.

  79. Tinman, that’s according to Harley, but when you look at the numbers, they don’t tell the whole truth. Yes, in the U.S. Harley dominates in the 651cc+ market, but that’s a relatively minor part of the market as a whole. As for the marketing plans, Triumph, Ducati and BMW have actually been focused more on developing their bikes, coming out with refinements to their legacy stuff (Boxers, parallel twins, air-cooled L twins) While developing new models, to expand their market, the S1000RR, Diavel, Multistrada 1200, and Tiger 800 all come to mind. Even Moto Guzzi’s got some really exciting bikes in the works, while refining their current line up. I haven’t seen any attempt by them to mimic Harley’s marketing. But those companies are mostly growing in Europe, not the U.S. The rider demographics and preferences aren’t as friendly to what those companies offer here in the states.

    There’s other problems with claiming HD’s got the youth market dominated, such as the fact that most first time buyers buy used bikes, as well as HD not counting anything below 651cc when they proclaim themselves the ultimate motorcycle company. Such as the Ninja 250, Kawasaki’s top selling bike, which is drawing competitors from the other Japanese brands, with Honda bringing their own 250cc sportbike to the U.S.

  80. I think mis-information has widely helped Harley. How many ads have you read where they tout low RPM torque numbers as the equivalent of power? Sure, most new Harleys are bought by new riders who are overwhelmed by 50HP on a 700 pound bike. They figure, if a 1500 is this fast, a 600 japanese bike must be less than half as fast – and sure as heck won’t be able to accelerate from 10 mph in 6th gear where, we all know it’s so vitally important. They also like the cruiser look because it matches their Lazy Boy ergonomics (which has already destroyed their backs) and can’t imagine trying to reach their stubby little legs to the ground on a regular bike or (God forbid) lose a little weight so that their gut doesn’t interfere with the reach to more comfortable, lower bars. Speaking of bars, that’s the best place to brag about your new Hog since everyone else there is just as ill-informed and glassy eyed from too much J-D (hmm, H-D / J-D) and homophobic causing them to pretend they can handle a Big Man’s Bike and – did I mention how much I spent on it regardless of what the wife thought, screw her anyways – mentality.

    Sure, they’re not all this way – witness the Harley riders who are reading this progressive blog, The Kneeslider – but that is the image Harley is after. The more you are feeling screwed by “The Man” and he’s taking away your unskilled livelihood, have we got the bike for you.

    -todd

  81. Wow todd, you are some kind of progressive god like genius. You have completely changed my overwhelemed, lazy boy, bad back, stubby legged, fat gut, homophobic, wife beater, point of view. (How do you know me so well?…..Oh yeah, I forgot, I don’t agree with your point of view, so your’s is a natural assumption.)
    If my Harley weren’t broke down again, (causing great sadness to all my Japenese bike riding friends), I would trade it in right this minute!! Then I would poll my friends to see what type of bike I could ride that would be acceptable to them…..no…no….some of them still ride Harleys, so that wouldn’t work……Jeez, help me out here todd…..whatever will I do to please my new progressive friends?

  82. wow add Harley Davidson to religion and politics as banned subjects at the Thanksgiving dinner table

  83. I see a lot of people here lump all cruisers into the same category. I ride a Star Stratoliner …..which is a big bike with a big engine, but with an ultra light aluminum frame and swing arm. Center of gravity on my bike is lower than most sport touring bikes. It is very fast by cruiser standards and the power and handling would surprise any HD knucklhead. Yet the owners of HDs slag my bike as a fake Harley. That is like calling an Audi a fake Ford. It is about time these Harley Clones(the borg collective) to admit that their underpowered, unreliable relics are second class in technology and attitude.

  84. O.K. Star Stratoliner…superior in every way to any Harley ever built.
    It’s just that it LOOKS exactly like a Harley, with a little art deco (Indian) thrown in.
    Oh yeah, then there is the lone wolf, chest thumping, tough guy filled with angst advertising campaign they use to sell it. Bad if from Harley…OK if from anyone else? I really am just trying to understand the “logic” here?!?!

  85. Seventhson, Your Stratoliner is a nice looking bike, but to claim its not a Harley clone is rediculous. Buy what you want, but how do you cope with the folks at work looking at your bike and saying “nice Harley”?? Do you ever get tired of telling everyone how superior your import is to a Harley?? Yamaha is staring to get some traction in the market now, after imitating the bikes and the marketing of Harley Davidson… For $2K more you could of had the real thing, no excuses needed!!

  86. The board at Harley should fire the management, not the advertizing agency. Get competent management and they’ll tell the ad people what they need. Most other companies do exhaustive market research to see what customers want. I think HD has always relied on customers for feedback and return business. This is sort of like marketing inbreeding. When cousins start marrying cousins, you get some real goofy business decisions.

    What happened to the $80 Jillion dollars HD made when they could do no wrong? Maybe they should loosen their grip on that money and do some R&D or market research. Or they could cheat and just look at sales numbers for everyone else and see what’s selling. If a certain bike is a good fit to their limited focus, make em and sell em for Christ sake.

  87. Tinman, Harley’s sales numbers are down quarter after quarter and year after year. Again, you ignore other bike markets where H-D does not compete and its understandable because scooter sales are blowing up while Harley is gaining a larger and larger segment of an incredibly shrinking market. You’d be cheerleading the #1 buggy manufacturer in 1904 as though there were no expanding automobile market.

    Oldtimer, HD only makes cruisers so unsophisticated people are naturally going to assume that every other cruiser maker is going to try to be a HD clone. There are some people who still think that Excelsior-Hendersons are HD clones. Its just a fact that ALL cruisers are going to look alike to a great degree because that it the nature of that bike. Its the same thing with sportbikes. A GSX-R1000 looks very similar to the BMW S1000RR. THe HD V-Rod looks like a modern metric power cruiser.

    So, its disingenuous to suggest that HD is the design standard of the world when in reality they have never done any designs beyond the cruiser market and the uneducated public has come to associate the cruiser solely with Harley. Its just not true.

  88. Tom, the sad fact is, all cruisers are Harley clones. With the exception of the VMAX, which may or may not be a cruiser, and the Diavel, which again, may or may not actually be a cruiser. A case could also be made for Triumph’s offerings (Rocket III and Thunderbird) As well as Honda’s flat sixes (Goldwing, Valkyrie and Rune) But put a big, narrow angle V-twin into a big bike, it may as well be a Harley. Throw in the badly done copying, and it makes little sense to buy anything but a Harley, since few buy a cruiser for actual performance. At least in the looks department, the Nightster and Fat Bob flat out own any cruiser from Japan.

    As for the V-Rod, initially, they looked like their own thing, then the Japanese decided to copy them. Now Harley’s taken it full circle, and started copying the Japanese copies. Which is just perverted.

  90. ‘Tom, the sad fact is, all cruisers are Harley clones’.
    Are you kidding? Next you’ll be saying that all non HD V twins are clones of the HD engine. HD didnt invent the cruiser or the V twin for that matter.
    There are some pretty cool Japanese V twins cruisers out there, as good if not better than HD but it seems the BS bad boy image will always win over the majority.

  91. The lot of you are ridiculous.
    The Harley-Davidson brand will make whatever it decides to make and then try to sell it to you. That’s what companies that make a product do and what they will always do.
    People will buy whatever they want, whatever that is. To believe otherwise is the epitome of ignorance.
    Furthermore, trolling motorcycle forums as if the president of HD reads them and claiming to be some marketing genius about what it should and shouldn’t do with itself based on “facts” and assumptions is just childish. So is badmouthing other’s for their choice in purchace just because you have a personal problem with the product.

    So HD was dropped by their advertising agency.
    What’s with all the beef from you guys?

  92. Richard, you actually think that The Japanese copied the V-Rod? VRSC stands for Vaguely Resembles Something Contemporary. HD copied the Japanese on this bike, but again, ALL bikes in a particular category resemble each other. Harley didn’t invent the cruiser but since its decided to be a one trick pony, unsophisticated people think that every other company who dabbles in this market must be copying Harley as though a cruiser could look any other way and still be a cruiser. Unsophisticated people think the Moto Guzzi California looks like a Harley clone. yeah right…..

    Freeman, you don’t grasp business any more than Colin does. HD dying will be painful to the US economy at a time when we can’t afford another blow anymore than building what you want and then selling it is a recipe for financial success. Smart companies build products that people don’t know that they want or need until a company invents something new and sells the item that fixes their need. Harley has chosen to sell to the already converted and that number is shrinking. That is a fact no matter how much you don’t like it. The numbers don’t lie but HD and its lemmings sure do.

    We aren’t badmouthing the quitters and liars who worship that false god in Milwaukee for their choice of bike. We do it for the precise reasons I posted above. HOGs live in a cult where everyone else believes their lies and so they think that everyone else does. Its the same with white trash con men (I’ve worked in several court systems so I’ve had to deal with these people on a day-to-day basis) who after easily conning the stupid trailer park people then think their crap is going to work on people who are educated and sophisticated. Not gonna happen. And, this is a discussion board where people exchange ideas – in agreement and disagreement. If you don’t like this reality, don’t post here.

  93. The clone comment earlier was referring to the mindless collective that ride HDs. Those who think my bike looks like a Harley either do not own a cruiser or….. ride a Harley. HD owners cannot stand the fact that most of the cruisers built by others are technically superior to everything HD makes with the exception of maybe the V-Rod. Victory is an example of a company that is forward thinking and has upped the game with their latest models, whether you like their styling or not. Thus all the ignorant comments by the Harley Collective. I am certainly not alone on this comment.

  94. Whenever the topic is about Harleys or something to do with “The Company”, all the posts become the same as every other forum out there in the world. The love/hate of Harley is the common denominator. Both sides seem to always think the “Facts” are on their side. But all of it ends up sounding like the rehashing of the same crap we’ve heard for the last 30 years. Just change the Harley model (juggle the letters) and change the cute model names (Japanese) and you can carry this argument on for another 30 years. Doesn’t anybody care about actually riding?

    The comments about non-Harley topics usually make more sense anyway. The only people that should be allowed to comment on Harley stuff is the people that know and that’s HD Management, factory workers or dealers and most likely they stay clear of the usual cluster-f*** forums.

  95. Freeman make some good points. Yes I include myself.
    It really is humorous to listen to some who spew venon at any comment or idea that disagree’s with their own. “And, this is a discussion board where people exchange ideas” Classic!
    I even complimented Seventhson’s bike and all I get is “mindless, ignorant Harley collective”
    It’s warm out today where I live. I’m going out for a long ride. I consider ANY thing on two wheels mechanical valium…….time to feed my addiction.
    See ya……….please don’t stop if you see me broken down by the side of the road!!!

  96. Wow.

    I was mostly away for a few days due to the funeral of someone very close and when I come back I see comments on this post about HD advertising have taken the far too common path of Harley versus the world. I don’t have a response because we’ve gone rather far afield from the original intent of what I wrote. There isn’t much in these comments related to advertising.

    I understand positive passion, I don’t understand much of what’s in these comments, I really, truly, don’t understand it.

    I’m with Oldtimer, I think I need some air, I’ll have a new post up soon to get everyone’s mind off in a new and, hopefully, more positive direction.

  97. It’s amazing how the forum lights up whenever Harley-Davidson is in the subject. It truly is one of those topics like politics or religion; hard opinions on both sides of the argument, no middle ground, passionately emotional responses. I’m glad I kicked off the discussion here, although I was simply the first one to get here. I admit H-D must be doing something right to have stayed in business 105 years, but remember there would be no Motor Company today if the Reagan administration hadn’t imposed stiff tariffs on imported big-bore bikes during the ’80s (how’s that for laissez-faire conservative government?) to give H-D breathing space to recover from the execrable AMF era. At the time, a writer for one of the motorcycle mags wrote an opinion piece that Harley should use the opportunity to leapfrog everyone by doing something truly bold, say, build the first V-8 motorcycle in decades. A good idea but unrealistic considering H-D was barely hanging on at the time and had enough trouble flushing the old AMF paint out of its spray guns. But think of it! An American icon building bikes powered by that most American of engines. It would have been something.

    I’m a big fan of American products and would like to see more motorcycle brands designed and made in the U.S.A. by American labor. Harley faces some real problems not of its making, but it has some real opportunities as well. Here’s an idea — Harley Electric scooters. The technology is advancing rapidly to the point where electrics soon will be practical. In some parts of the world, scooters have a bad-boy image similar to Harley’s image here. Seems to me the Motor Company could find a way to capitalize on all that and make a killing in the market.

    During the late 60s my high-school football coach, not a sissy by any stretch of the imagination, rode a Topper. The last time I saw him he was on a Sportster. There’s some kind of lesson there.

  98. It is amazing to think how successful the departing advertising agency was at selling Harleys. The ability to sell the most mass-produced motorcycle ever in the history of the American market for arguably the highest price is commendable. To also perpetuate the allure that you’re a rebel for doing so is amazing.

    I wonder if any of the other brands will approach this company hoping for the same results.

    -todd

  99. I forget which year, but in the last half of the ’90’s (?), H-D had NO advertising. They said there was no need for any that year.

    I wonder what changed…

  100. My most recent comments are certainly full of venom and over the top, I must admit….not so much for Harley Davidson, and certainly not for Harley owners who respect another riders choice of motorcycle. I just have no respect for the hair brained Harley collective who insist that anything but Harley cruisers are not legitimate choices. After all……It is about the ride…..not about your choice of ride.
    To certain sport bike riders out there(you know who I am talking about)…..again “It is about the Ride”. Make it a safe ride, so you live long enough to possibly enjoy owning a cruiser some day.

  101. Why should the pay an advertising company when they are being paid to advertise? There are millions of people who will gladly pay top dollar for t-shirts, hideous leather vests and other garbage novelty items which showcase the logo.

  102. I don’t think, in its current form, Harley can survive well without decent advertising. I know they didn’t have it in the past but through the end of the 90’s and the 00’s they grew rapidly and unless they are willing to shrink they need to do something to keep up the interest.

    Also, at least from my personal experience, the bottom has fallen out of the market for some of these bikes. I have a 2000 1200S Sportster that is well maintained, has lots of extras and runs like no bike I’ve ever owned in my life but I can’t even get anyone to even call when I listed it for $4000.

    — Chris

  103. From reading the new, yet trashy Harley booklet/brochure, it appears they’ve already turned their back on the “Traditional” Harley owners/buyers and they’re attacking the young, prepackaged, storebought tatoo wearin’, “Hey I think I’ll buy into the motorcycle image” market. Sorta like the late 80’s into the 90’s and til about 04-05 and the assault on the vulnerable/impressionable middleaged yuppie demagraphic. It worked before, it just may work again and they really didn’t even have to change the product line all that much. Just a paint job here and there.

    I’m not anti-Harley and in fact my new race bike I’m building is a Harley and my hope is that it kicks the crap out of all brands. But if it doesn’t work out like I planned, I’ll quickly move on to something else that does in fact work better!

    Motorcycles are a tool to provide fun for people that like to ride. It’s not something to fight about or choose sides. Oh yea, WW2 ended in 1945. Lets try to move on. Harley has! They’ve been using Kiehin carbs for 15+ years!

  104. Wow, what passion!! just because people critique or even criticize H/D does not make them Harley bashers, much less Harley haters. They are simply stating the obvious and, in most cases, speaking the simple truth. If Harley has a position in the American market, it is hardly based on innovation and progress.
    As far as building a new bike that may be well received by the market, they already have a “first step” of sort, all they have to do is this:
    destroke the 883 Sportster to 749cc
    take off 200 lbs,
    take off most of the chrome crap
    make the bike look like Ducati Monster, Triumph Thruxton or Vincent
    make it easy (or cheap) to repair/service
    And presto, you have a H/D bike that sells like hotcakes, even in India.
    As far as advertising goes, you do need to listen to your potential buyers.
    Alternately, you can try to patent the sound again.

  105. Oldtimer and B50Jim think there is no middle ground but they don’t bother to read the replies of the critics. Its obvious you guys just skim them over without looking in depth. Real haters want to see Harley die. That’s stupid and economically destructive and I am not alone in disagreeing with those “extremists” because what they want is righteous revenge.

    A lot of critics want Harley to change, like a drug addict right before rehab, in order to stay alive. Its not hard to see the end of the line for them and its not like 30 years ago when people were making the argument then, The demographics and the economy have finally caught up with HD. No, we won’t be making these arguments in 30 years because if HD doesn’t change, its not going to be here. And, if it is here, it’ll be nothing more than a boutique brand like Indian.

    My fellow reasonable critics want an American based world class bike company to be proud of that is the standard of the world. Harley is a nobody outside the North American market in terms of sales and technological development. Harley had the time and money to develop new bikes to appeal to younger riders (HD once made a scooter and a thumper) but chose instead to insult younger generations by lying to us. We don’t like being lied to and this is the basis of the critics’ problems with Harley.

    So, beware the loveless critic and the uncritical lover and for god’s sake people, please some day try to be able to tell the difference!

  106. No Suprise it is hard to excite anyone about old Technology with a cool new name like heritage or vintage.
    You can make 10 times the power and relibilty with water cooling.
    How many covairs and vw busses are still around ?
    it is just plain inefficiant.
    They had a gold mine with Buell and HD will get a stick in there eye when Erik Buell Racing contuines to Build great relible bikes that young and sportbike riders desire.
    If they would have let Erik build a water cooled bike earlier they would have a huge new market.But they stole it and put it in the v-rod.
    They never marketed Buell in any way shape or forum i have two and No body even knows what they are.
    Good Job MR.CEO for crushing your one chance to survive

  107. Wow!
    All you guys are passionate about Harley — You love em or hate em in equal measure
    And the post was just about the marketing side … and turned into a slag fest..
    Yes, I have a Harley Sportster (the current model), yes it has faults but if I keep it 10 years I should iron them out (change the parts etc) then it will be MY Harley and not the factorys..
    In the meantime whatever you ride – ride safe and yes we have the dickheads in cars on the phones as well in the UK

  108. Buell Forever. You must be fairly new at this. Apparently you never saw Wes Cooley, Eddie Lawson or Freddie Spencer run their “Inefficient” air-cooled Superbikes on the banking at Daytona. Or been to a Mile where 99% of the bikes running are air cooled Harley twins.

    Can’t comment on Corvairs, but I had 3 different air-cooled VW buses and I could fix anything on them in my driveway or by the side of the road while driving cross-country here or in Europe. Try that with your Hayabusa or a new Roadbob Queen FLDXCH Mark 3. How soon we forget. 🙂

  109. “So, when you people act like you’re the only real true Americans and that the POS bikes that you ride are the epitome of American engineering, we’re going to tell you that you’re full of crap. Just because you people ignore reality does not mean that you can ignore the ramifications of it.”

    Hey Tom, You missed my point completely. Try reading the posts again before yo shoot your mouth off.
    And I have a question: when was the first time those big bad harley riders intimidated you Tom?

    “My fellow reasonable critics want an American based world class bike company to be proud of that is the standard of the world. Harley is a nobody outside the North American market in terms of sales and technological development. Harley had the time and money to develop new bikes to appeal to younger riders (HD once made a scooter and a thumper) but chose instead to insult younger generations by lying to us. We don’t like being lied to and this is the basis of the critics’ problems with Harley.”

    My God man, it’s easy. Don’t buy one!!!!!!!

  110. “We aren’t badmouthing the quitters and liars who worship that false god in Milwaukee for their choice of bike. We do it for the precise reasons I posted above. HOGs live in a cult where everyone else believes their lies and so they think that everyone else does. Its the same with white trash con men (I’ve worked in several court systems so I’ve had to deal with these people on a day-to-day basis) who after easily conning the stupid trailer park people then think their crap is going to work on people who are educated and sophisticated. Not gonna happen. And, this is a discussion board where people exchange ideas – in agreement and disagreement. If you don’t like this reality, don’t post here.”

    Hey Tom. I ride the Harley that I own because I like it. I ride the Honda I own because I like it. I ride the Yamaha I own because I like it. Are any of these bikes that I ride the best damn thing in the world? Absolutely not. Have I said that they are? Absolutely not. It’s what I like.
    Not all people who ride HD’s criticize or put down non HD riders. A lot of us simply like the style of certain bikes whether it’s HD, Honda, Yamaha, ‘Guzzi, etc. Apparently that isn’t ok with you.
    What’s even better, is now, thanks to you, I find out that I’m a member of a cult. When are our meetings and who is in charge?

  111. HD people read this? Here’s my .02.
    My next bike will be a Sport Tourer, I’ve been on an ’83 Honda GL1100 for 15 years and want a sporty, touring capable and comfortable bike like an ST1300 before I get too old to ride long distances anymore. I was ready to pull the plug on a Buell Ulysses but you pulled the plug on Buell the same week. The only way HD will get me into their dealer now will be to build a true sport tourer. Put the VRod engine into a new frame and fully faired bike with bags and I’ll be there. Make it a feet forward design and you’ve lost me.

  112. I say they need to do a V-Rod powered jet ski with apes and polished ss drag pipes…orange and black of course. Call it the “Jet-Rod”. Done.

  113. in my opinion the worst advertising for HD is the banter that goes on over HD topics on forums. it always devolves into “you’re a poo head, no you are!”

    i don’t think it attracts anyone to switch brands.

  114. @Buell Forever, here’s another tidbit: 1973 Yvon DuHamel on a Yoshimura prepped air-cooled Z-1 lapped Daytona on the banking (no infield), at an average speed of 160 mph. Me, I’ll call that impressive. Do I own a Z-1? No. Do I want to own one? No. But I do appreciate where the current bikes came from and hearing the old bikes run at Daytona with open Kerker or Yosh pipes was frickin’ incredible!

    Could a new bike outperform the old ones? Of course it could. But then maybe thats why the guys that love Harleys so much love them so much. It’s the sound of droning down the open road at 50mph as opposed to 193mph at Daytona or Miller or barber.

  115. I agree with MULE. I’ve owned a 74 Yamaha RD350, an 88 HD Low Rider Sport and currently ride an 05 Triumph Bonneville. I rode my RD350 from NJ to California and back in 1980. The bike never broke down! The Harley…twice during the 6 years I owned it. Still, I loved that bike! Also love my Bonnie. But the only bike I would take cross country again would be the RD350!!! Simple and reliable! Well engineered and manufactured machine.

  116. Lowrider88 11.22.10 at 12:35 pm
    I agree with MULE. I’ve owned a 74 Yamaha RD350, an 88 HD Low Rider Sport and currently ride an 05 Triumph Bonneville. I rode my RD350 from NJ to California and back in 1980. The bike never broke down! The Harley…twice during the 6 years I owned it. Still, I loved that bike! Also love my Bonnie. But the only bike I would take cross country again would be the RD350!!! Simple and reliable! Well engineered and manufactured machine.

    AMEN.

  117. Tom – agree with most of your comments. In the short-term HD is still something outside of N.America (e.g. Indian market). The irony in that is a portion of the Indian standard of living has risen to the point where buying ‘luxury’ motorcycles makes sense. However, HD is still banking on the same plan as the 90s American market: selling the pirate-cruising-around image, which is a relatively short-term business plan.

    BobG – Buells weren’t selling? Not true. Even if it was true, why did HD Mgmt stop Buell production when they had released a model not even 2 years prior (a model that HD invested millions to bring to market) ? Very extreme short-term thinking, that will, in the end, be better for Erik Buell and motorcyclists but what will HD have learned?

    That’s the advertising advise many here are offering. But it is not free….it comes at the cost of lost sales.

  118. @ Tom :

    I agree that this is a forum for exchanging ideas… but most of what’s being exchanged here on this post is just prejudice, slander, and gross generalizations.

  119. BobG – Buells weren’t selling? Not true. Even if it was true, why did HD Mgmt stop Buell production when they had released a model not even 2 years prior (a model that HD invested millions to bring to market) ? Very extreme short-term thinking, that will, in the end, be better for Erik Buell and motorcyclists but what will HD have learned?

    I don’t know Hoyt, there were many left in dealerships year after year. All I read on most sites back then was that they were crap, mainly because they had a modified HD motor. I know, the new motor was better and had promise. It was obviously a business decision ala MVA (they also had a lot of promise) which they also poured tens of millions of dollars into and sold for nothing. Sometimes large corps have to make hard decisions. 18 – 24 months ago when all hell broke loose, Hds stock was around $14. It’s back to about twice that now. We should have bought some.

  120. “there were many left in dealerships year after year.”

    There is more to that sentiment than dealerships just not being able to sell them. Many dealerships (not all) were part of the problem. e.g. Seattle area HD put the brand new 1125R in its USED building, which was across the parking lot. (incidentally, Seattle is a very diverse moto market that could have been an easier place to improve the HD image with new customers than many other markets)

    There are just 2, clean-sheet bikes developed by HD in 40+ years: the VRod and the 1125R. The resulting treatment of this investment/effort? …put that thing in the used section.
    How much of that attitude is an extension of the current HD corporate culture?
    How much of that problem was caused by listening to their current customers?

  121. Wow Hoyt, some of the dealerships I went to had Buell on their signs. I saw them in showrooms (new) and actually out in front. Some even had promotions for them. Can you imagine that? Some dealers, probably most, tried to sell the product. I think I might even have gotten a free Buell T shirt at one! And why do you assume that HD feels that they need to improve their image. Cause you don’t like it? You’re obviously not going to buy one, so why should they care what you and the other HD critics think. Will they move ahead and come up with something you like? Maybe, maybe not. Do you honestly believe that they are stupid enough to think that every existing or potential cycle rider is actually going to be one of their customers?
    Oh yea, how many Buells did you buy. I bought none.

  122. Remember too Hoyt, that all HD dealers were not Buell dealers. I don’t know if they targeted certain markets for the Buell line. I would think that HD tried to shove it down the throats of the entire dealer network, but some didn’t want to take on the additional floor plan expense or other related costs. And that’s understandable. Not all HD stores are big operations. There are still alot of small dealers and there are places that that type of bike just wouldn’t sell.

  123. Why is it so hard for you & other HD defenders to accept criticism?

    A multi-billion dollar company in the year 2010 sells only big-inch, air-cooled twins and some liquid-cooled super-size-me cruisers. That is not too far from Ford, Chrysler, or GM selling only trucks and SUVs. (Even Winnebago diversifies with tents.) 🙂 An investor has every right to question their vision…and they have shortly after the details of the Buell missteps came to light.

    Did you ever consider there are critics who want HD to do better and would prove it with cash? These critics come at a time when much of HD’s current customer base either can’t ride that new trike from HD or have no interest in it.

    BobG: “And why do you assume that HD feels that they need to improve their image.”
    In terms of the Buell-side of their business, there was a lot of room for improvement from corporate management to dealerships. There were not enough people who truly understood the sport bike market or had any ambition for it, yet they had a great resource in the Buell personnel and had a worthwhile investment in them. This is not news.

    BobG: “There are still alot of small dealers and there are places that that type of bike just wouldn’t sell.”

    Right. Seattle is not one of those areas that a Buell would not sell. I believe one of the best Buell dealerships was in the Seattle area. However, the other dealer I mentioned above still did not treat the bike properly even though it would sell in this market.

    Not all HD dealerships are Buell dealerships? Thanks for highlighting part of the problem. Were other multi-brand dealerships allowed to sell just Buell? No.

    Why do you assume I am someone that wouldn’t buy an HD? I am in the market for a 2-up bike & fit other demographics for a prospective HD customer very well. I also speak highly of the Road King.

    Buell purchase? The Buell made it to my short-list of 2 when the Firebolt was first introduced. In the end, I went with a V11 Sport Guzzi. And, I would love a clean example of a Firebolt (working on it)

  124. When did everyone start loving Buell? Look up ANY old forum post on here or other places and it is a lot of the same HD vitriol being spewed at Buell. You will see the following adjectives quite often – Unreliable, ugly, overpriced.

    Personally, I always liked Buell. I owned two XBs, but they were never more than a niche brand. Total sales were 138K – in 25 YEARS! By comparison, HD sold 220K bikes last year. Sad to see Buell go, I think HD should have kept them around but as HDs. A HD branded XB or 1125 would have done better I believe.

  125. BobG,

    As someone who once owned a Buell and worked at a small H-D dealership that happened to be the #1 Buell dealer for several years, I can confidently say that you know as much about Buell as the anti-Harley bigots here know about Harley.

    I think H-D’s “focus on its core” is just trendy buzzwording for “staring into the vortex in the toilet bowl of the marketplace”. It is hard to dismiss that since they and their “core” seem to be obsessed with telling people what they aren’t/can’t do/don’t want to do. If H-D can’t display any ingenuity, why would they expect any from their “core”? If management can’t explain why people would want their bikes and all the baggage that comes with them, well, what does that really say?

    Ex H-D owner, rider, and PHD mechanic.

  126. Freeman, you are absolutely correct. That is why I cut through the BS ans discuss this topic rationally. Those who come in and say “Screw Harley, I hope it dies!” seem to be gone now, but they are generally few and far between. Posters like BobG only focus on those people so he can feel righteous in his choice after a shopping trip.

    Speaking of BobG being wrong, yes Bob, you do talk like a cult member. Claiming that you’re not part of a cult has done nothing to stop you from talk and act like one. You don’t know much about Buell either. The Japanese LOVE Buells and they hold their value here even with thousands of miles. Its not uncommon to see a Buell in a dealership here with more than 20,000km. I like them and would have one but their seats are too nonexistent for my toosh.

    Further, Buell bikes had a major handicap in being sold only at HD dealers. The stories are legion of people going in to buy a Buell only to be disrespected or ignored by salesmen. This happened to me in West Palm when i was looking to buy a Blast, IMO THE best bike in the US for city commuting, and I never went back at a HD dealer again. Buell did well with so many handicaps and it was indeed in the black before Harley killed it.

    Hoyt, they cannot accept criticism because they are part of a cult and cultists cannot accept the idea that there could be anything imperfect about their god or themselves. Its not that Harley makes inferior products, its the liar/quitter mentality of the company. Chris Shields has a great rant about “Why a Harley isn’t a real motorcycle” by those of us who want to see Harley be better instead of racing toward the edge of the cliff. Its old but still funny….and true.

    I’m not a loveless critic. In fact, I’ve narrowed my choice for a new bike to either a V-Rod or a Moto Guzzi Breva. I haven’t seen a Blast so perhaps they were not imported here in Japan. Or, owners never sell them.

  127. if someone in Harley management listen, here’s what i want. 250-400cc v-twin DOHC cafe style iron horse (not plastic) with price range 4000$ – 5000$.
    Heck… whoever can make one, i WANT it!
    check your bank account immediately if you can promise to deliver one or two months after i pay.

  128. I thought we came “The Kneeslider” to avoid this type of juvenile discourse? Go read HFL if you guys want to whine.

    Disappointing.

    Ultimately – who gives a crap? – this is such a stupid debate. Vote with your wallet- that’s all that matters. HD will change when they no longer can make money doing what they are doing. That may be now, it may not. The same dire predictions have been made for the last 30 years.

    I would like to see HD diversify but its no big deal if they dont – others make products to cover ever niche out there. I dont need a HD adventure bike but it would be cool to see their interpretation. Sport bikes – eh not my thing so I care less about any on the market. I would like to see HD make a true standard at around $5k- that think is a realistic suggestion.

    Advertising – I am pretty sure HD still has agency support. http://adage.com/agencynews/article?article_id=147135

  129. @Penectomy, You’ve made some good points, but on one you are way, way off. As is Erick before you. There are no more $5000.00 new bikes being made by anyone except perhaps some artificially devalued Cheinese stuff. Go into a shop of any brand, look at prices and you’ll end up in the mini-bike/mini quad section of the the store to hit that price point. Add to that the requirement that the manufacturer meet your personal design parameters and the selection out there is nothing more than a dream. Buy a used Blast if you can handle the full 14.3 HP and be happy!

    The simple fact is that besides the cost of everything in the world continuing to rise, each year the price of motorcycyles rise mostly due to background technology that more or less has become standard. And since this discussion was originally about Harley’s and their advertising, you’re are dreaming about a bike Harley doesn’t make and most likely has no plans to EVER make. I conclude that you are not their target market.

    The standard response from the Harley faithful is, “Boy…You’re just dreamin’ about the wrong bike! You better get your head straight!”

  130. Mule – yeah I am sure you are correct. $5K does seem a little ambitious but didnt the Buell Blast cost about $5K? Maybe $7k is more doable.

    I am their target market (33 multiple bike owner) – I own a 08 Nightster that I traded a 05 XB to get and I also own a Triumph Bonne (wife’s bike). I liked Buell and and I like HD and I like Triumph. Maybe the price point is not the point. I would like to see HD make a functional standard that is cool looking (something like a Bonne) – that seems to be in the wheel house for them. I don’t even care if it costs $10K – I would rather it be quality than cheap. My Nightster has lots of short-comings, but cheaply made/materials is not one of them. It would be near perfect (for me) if the Nightster got more suspension travel and better shocks – maybe something derivative of the XR. I have made those upgrades myself (as most XL owners do) but it only seems to make sense that it would come better sorted than it does.

  131. Tom,
    You fancy a Guzzi Breva yet you rail on HD for being archaic? You do know that the Breva is an air cooled OHV with 2 valves per cylinder and a meager (by todays standards) 84HP at the crank – right? Also it has a single front caliper with only 2 pistons (the horror). Oh yeah, it weighs in at 520 lbs.

    That being said, I really like the Breva – just cant figure out how you could appreciate it. I thought you were a BMW, top of the line, latest tech, kind of guy? Its not cutting edge, its not a world beater, its not even inexpensive. Its a tried and true Guzzi made for people that like Guzzi’s. I think that is awesome.

    Also, where was all the Buell love when the brand existed? Like the guy said earlier, they sold what, like 8K bikes are year? I challenge anyone to look at the older comments about Buells. The internet hoard was never kind.

  132. hoyt 11.22.10 at 9:44 pm
    Why is it so hard for you & other HD defenders to accept criticism?

    A multi-billion dollar company in the year 2010 sells only big-inch, air-cooled twins and some liquid-cooled super-size-me cruisers. That is not too far from Ford, Chrysler, or GM selling only trucks and SUVs. (Even Winnebago diversifies with tents.) An investor has every right to question their vision…and they have shortly after the details of the Buell missteps came to light.

    Now we’ve hit the nail on the head. If you’re an investor, I can understand your concern with HD. If you have no stake, life is to short to be getting upset over a company that doesn’t do want you want.

    And Tom, when you go to bed tonight, make sure you lock your doors, pull your shades down tight, and put your head under the covers. Those big, bad Harley Davidson boogie men are everywhere.

    PS. I can’t stick around any longer, I have an HD cult meeting to get too. In fact, tonight is the night that we all get to clean Willie G’s boots.

  133. “some liquid-cooled super-size-me cruisers”

    Is this not the bike you claim to have short listed? Just one of your many contradictory statements.

  134. BobG – i hope your boot cleaning went well. No, I am not an investor (thankfully). Life being too short about businesses not doing something I want? To some point I agree, but we’re talking about criticism, and there are plenty of bikes to choose from so I’m not losing sleep over HD. Criticism…you still can’t seem to take a neutral stance for a second to see that HD is ripe for criticism. They market their 100+ year status every 5 years with a different color, yet wtf are they doing to be around for another 100 years?

    Tom – agree they don’t build inferior products for their intent. Their product line diversity is inferior.

    HootieHoo – wrong ’em boyo. The Firebolt made my short-list. Read again. What are the contradictory statements? Quote them.

  135. Hootie, actually the Guzzi is less expensive here in Japan than the VRod. I’m not against lower tech bikes (and no, I’m not a BMW guy myself. I love all kinds of bikes from a Crocker to a real Indian to the Excelsior-Henderson to a Hayabusa) nor do I worship the so-called latest and greatest. My problem stems from the HD cult constantly saying that their inferior tech is the best that America can do. Guzzi doesn’t pretend to be credit-card pirates buying yesterday’s technology at tomorrow’s prices. I’ve never met a Guzzi rider who parrots the decades of lies from the company. Its not the bikes themselves, its that HD lies to us and expects to be above any criticism and this is the hallmark of a cult.

    And, as for Buell, again they were sold at harley dealers and this was never a good fit for the bikes. The stories are legion of people going to a HD dealer to look at a Buell only to get disrespected or outright ignored. HD has taken the attitude that since they refuse to make any sporty bikes that they’ll make sure as far as they can that no one else in the US will show them up.

  136. hoyt,
    Sorry that I miss quoted you. I seem to have combined your statements with Tom’s. You and Tom are both so similar in your delivery that I failed to notice the name attached differed.

  137. Tom,
    I dont think anyone ever said that HD is the pinnacle of American motorcycling. I think the people that like them…well just like them. Just like you appreciate a low tech Guzzi. It’s just what you like. The problem is riders are then called names and forced to defend themselves from malicious attacks about a product that they enjoy. You call us names and then when we respond we reinforce your argument that we are in a cult.

    I guess I am just a cult member but I really like my Nightster, I enjoyed my Buell XB Lightning, and I even enjoy my Triumph Bonneville (what, a bike from another maker?) Anyway, dont you have anything better to do in Japan but author diatribes about a faceless corporation that makes a needless, luxury product? Its not like they make penicillin or run orphan homes, they make freaking motorcycles – let’s prioritize our concerns.

    That being said, as an investor, I agree HD should diversify. If for no other reason but to hedge. I dont take it personally. In fact, I could care less. If I want a different type of bike that HD does not offer, Ill just go to the brand that does. No big deal.

  138. hoyt 11.23.10 at 3:31 pm
    “BobG – i hope your boot cleaning went well. No, I am not an investor (thankfully). Life being too short about businesses not doing something I want? To some point I agree, but we’re talking about criticism, and there are plenty of bikes to choose from so I’m not losing sleep over HD. Criticism…you still can’t seem to take a neutral stance for a second to see that HD is ripe for criticism. They market their 100+ year status every 5 years with a different color, yet wtf are they doing to be around for another 100 years?”

    Hoyt, You seem like a reasonable person, however, you missed my point. I think I have a real neutral stance when it comes to HD. I’ve owned three of them, and have been happy with each one. I’ve owned and do own other brands, and am happy with those as well, because they suit my purpose. Because I own an HD, doesn’t mean I hate or love the company. I am just tired of people like Tom, who think that any Harley owner is automatically a die hard, cult member that spews the company line. When I bought my first Sportster in 1975, I was 20 years old. I bought that bike because I thought it was the coolest thing out there. Was it? I don’t know, but I thought so! HD was to me, the epitome of what I thought a motorcyle should look like. Untill that time, the only thing I had ridden were mini bikes. I had not been exposed to the Japanese or English bikes at that point in my life. I’ve always liked the purely American style of HD. Like I said earlier, is it the perfect bike, no it’s not. I don’t believe there is such a thing. My point has been all along that if you don’t like HD bikes, don’t buy them. I don’t want to hear the crap about they could be this or they could be that. They simply are what they are! If you are looking at HD to be the perfect bike, you are looking in the wrong place. That company will make what they believe will sell to their market, just as other companies will. Some want to cover all of the bases, some don’t. If HD goes out of business tomorrow, well too bad. I think it would be a shame, but if they do, it’s their fault. They don’t owe me anything (I’m not holding any stock either, but sometimes I wish I did). I believe you said you were considering buying a Road King. There are a lot of great choices out there, look around. If you decide on the RK, ride the hell out of it and enjoy it, it’s a good bike. Again, is it the best? I don’t know, but I wouldn’t mind owning one. There are numerous bikes I’d like to own and enjoy, from cruisers to dual sports to nakeds.
    A Harley Fatboy is simply one of the bikes that I currently own and I like it. Again, buy what you like and enjoy it.

    Tom, you said that you were considering buying a V Rod or a Guzzi Breva. Please buy the Breva. If you buy the V Rod, you’ll be a Harley owner. Some people will label you as being a liar, a lemming, a quitter (although I don’t quite understand that label), and a cult member. Oh that’s right, that was you! You for some reason, you are hung up on cults (“hallmark of a cult”).
    Anyway, at the HD cult meeting tonight, after we were given the honor of cleaning Wiilie G’s boots, we all exchanged doo rags and compared skull rings. The highlite of my night was when I showed Willie G my jacket which is made out of 89 different 5″ HD belt buckles (all made in China of course). He slapped me five and I have to tell you, I’ll never wash that hand as long as I live. He then annointed me with some crankcase oil from a ’58 Pan, and I have to admit my whole body trembled.
    I believe you implied you are in Japan. My advice, lay off the Sake.

    Sorry Hoyt, but I couldn’t resist.
    To all those who are US citizens, have a Happy Thanksgiving!

  140. BobG, some points you need to, but won’t, consider:

    1. I don’t drink sake. Insinuating that I’m an alcoholic to deflect facing the well supported criticism is the hallmark of a cult member. Saying that you’re not a cult member but then engaging in cult member behavior gives lie to your claim of objectivity.

    2. One does not have to be a cult member just because one owns a Harley. Its not mandatory. Several old former riders who rode when Harleys weren’t crap cannot stand the new cult members. So owning a HD doesn’t automatically make on a cult member. Your actions do.

    3. One does not have to own a Harley, or even a motorcycle at all, to be a cult member. Witness all the pirate wannabes at bike shows, a Wal-Mart, or any trailer park to see the bumper stickers and doo-rags. This is part of the problem of feeding the fantasy of the cult members thinking that everyone who doesn’t have a HD secretly wants one. South Park was spot on in its mockery of the HD mindset. It wasn’t all the HD bikes that they were making fun of, just the immature, idiotic, cult member modified obnoxious bikes and the owners that they were hating on.

    Again, its not the bike, its the being lied to. My favorite bike of all time in the Suzuki TL1000R. I already know all the criticisms of the bike….and they are all true….and I still love the bike. I don’t lie to myself or other people about it.

  143. Penectomy – “If I want a different type of bike that HD does not offer, Ill just go to the brand that does. No big deal.”

    True, no big deal if their current line-up is sustainable in 25+ yrs.
    If not, it is a big deal for the line workers & engineers that could build a variety of great products (its not just about having a variety for steady revenue in changing markets. Knowledge can be applied to production & engineering across the line)

    There is also a sense of unfulfilled potential (akin to Ford not making the new Boss or GM not making a ‘Vette…how boring American transportation would be if that were true). Where did the hundreds of millions in HD net income for consecutive years go?

    If you read the Cal Rayborn articles in Motorcyclist a couple months ago, you have to wonder how there can’t be a single decision-maker in HD who does not want to be competitive in road racing again. Oh well, this opens the door for EBR and others.
    Motus is also on the verge of building a world class American bike.

  144. BobG, yes they do as do yours. I completely stand by everything in all of my posts and I apologize for or retract nothing.

  145. You guys are having what’s commonly known as a “Pissing contest”. Both are passionate and neither listening, not that it would matter. You guys should swap emails instead of contaminating an awesome website with the oldest, most boring, senseless, going nowhere, assortment of insults attached to an argument that nobody has any interest in. After 2-3 back and forth exchanges a smart guy realizes the other guy isn’t gonna listen anyway. Cut your losses. You’re both knowledgable motorcycle enthusiasts that like different bikes, so you’ve both already won. No need to hold a grudge against the world.

    Happy Thanksgiving!

  146. You’re only half right. I don’t insult the cult members. I merely call them what they are. You’re engaging in what is known as a false equivalency error. I don’t expect to change their minds and never tried to. I’m just letting them know that we’re not going to simply take being lied to without challenge.

    And, a Happy Thanksgiving to all my fellow Americans back home and also around the world.