All motorcycle manufacturers must contend with changes in tastes & demographics (age, gender, location, etc.). For several years there has been a lot of talk about the increase in the average age of the Harley-Davidson buyer. The investment in the 2010 Street Glide Trike model seems to be in-line with that statistic, while another investment in the Nightster has been successful in attracting younger buyers. The Nightster took little investment to generate quick sales, relative to an entirely new motorcycle with a new engine. Equally important, it attracted new buyers to the brand. What other models can HD build with relatively low investment that would attract a younger buyer and/or first-time HD buyer? What do you think of these possibilities? (keep in mind, the goals are to add new models in order to attract new and/or returning buyers at relatively minimum investment)…
Here are a few ideas:
1. Continue the Nightster’s success with a Café Sportster line (“Café-sterâ€) Café Racer – (Shown above)
Closely related is a Cafe GT style alternative – Walt Greenwood wrote about this previously.
2. Big Twin Sportbike
Curt Winter has spent more than 10 years building variations of an HD-based Big Twin sportbike. The latest model is the “TC-Sport†for Twin Cam Sport. He has dialed-in the Big Twin engine placement and frame geometry. Harley could introduce this model as a late 2010 model if they began working with Curt in the remainder of this year. Relatively-speaking, this would not require a huge investment or time-to-market. The result would generate new buyers to the brand today. For example, Curt has received a lot of interest in the TC Sport from Buell riders wanting a continuation of the tube-framed Buells but with the Big Twin motor. In addition, local HD dealerships have contacted BTR Moto after customers entered the store with pictures of the TC Sport in hand. A variety of enthusiasts (young and old) at Alice’s Restaurant have also inquired about this bike. “Why doesn’t Harley make something like this?†is a common inquiry. If you have ever been to (or have seen footage of) Alice’s, the area attracts a variety of discerning enthusiasts.
3. Sport Touring Revolution
The V-Rod Muscle is a cool bike. The V-Roehr is a cool bike. Wouldn’t a hotrod sport tourer get new traffic into HD dealerships? The Sport Touring options on the market today are all fairly sedate in terms of character (possibly too much refinement in the engine, regardless of the performance?). How about some hotrod soul to go with the sport touring comfort and luggage?
The Sport Touring Revolution model would take more investment than the other 3 mentioned above. However, HD can continue to extend the existing Sportster line like they have done with the Nightster and/or bring in someone like Curt Winter with a proven prototype to efficiently and inexpensively market new models with immediate impact.
Doug’s notes:
• Rich Christoph was 27 when he designed the Nightster.
• Curt Winter was in his late 20’s when he began building a sport chassis for the HD Big Twin.
• I am 39 and have been riding motorcycles for 16 years. I have not yet owned a Harley Davidson, but I would purchase any of the 4 bikes proposed. I also believe some buyers older than 40 would be interested in these bikes.
—–
Doug offers some interesting ideas on a future direction for Harley Davidson. The key idea, as he points out, is developing new models with minimum investment. Not all of these ideas will resonate with current HD customers, but that’s the idea, bring in a whole new group of younger customers. Of course, these might be a hit with some current customers. too.
– The Kneeslider –
Eric says
Start calling Buells Harleys.
Jesse says
I am 26 years old and I purchased my first Harley (a 2007 Sportster) in September 2006 when I was 23. I recently traded up and purchased an 09 Street Glide back in March. I am generally the youngest Harley rider wherever I go. I am an an anachronism. I don’t spend every sunday afternoon washing and polishing my motorcycle. I live in a dirt road so my bike is generally covered in a healthy amount of dust. I am not your average Harley rider in more than a few ways. I love all damn motorcycles. All of them. I had my reasons for choosing a Harley and you had your reasons for choosing a BMW, Honda, whatever but whatever you ride you are my ally in the war on idiot car drivers trying to kill us.
As much as I love the look and feel of both my Harleys I would love to see them truly innovate. When you read the forums anytime something new comes out everyone gets worried that Harley is changing their image. No one is saying to junk their current line up but I mean dear god when trying to decide which touring bike to get I practically needed a degree to understand what the differences were between the Street Glide, Ultra Glide, Electra Glide, etc because they all looked the same to me, so a little more diversity wouldn’t hurt.
Sure the diehard harley fanatics would give you a hard time for riding the new fancy models the same way people get it for riding V-Rods, the same way the big twin guys used to give it for riding a sportster telling me it was a girl’s bike, but you know what? But you know what all those guys that used to make fun of me have in common? They are all all more than twice my age and sadly won’t be around to buy Harleys too much longer so innovate, make something a 19 year old on a modest budget not only could afford but would be proud to ride without being labeled a dinosaur and you might notice more riders my age or younger buying your motorcycles.
The Phantom says
I think HD would do well to look at doing a Speed Triple style bike – yes I know Buell has gone down that road to a certain degree, but Buells are really an aquired taste for many riders.
The TC-Sport comes close, but is missing something – it still looks a bit ‘backyard’.
I think there’s also potential for HD to sell a proper honest to goodness sportsbike once they establish a sporting nakedbike/musclebike – slap some fairings and low clip-ons on it and watch them roll out the door – the impression I get is that a lot of US sportsbike riders bash HD because they are dinosaurs, but they’d love to be able to ride a home-grown sportsbike that matched the European and Japanese bikes dynamics.
Phoebe says
I would definitely consider a Sportster if it came in a standard form (no, the way it is now is not a standard) or a cafe. And of course, if it wasn’t the price of the XR1200 =P
The Ogre says
1) Build a motor without that unnecessarily gigantic primary drive.
2) Go with the GT and Cafe ideas above.
Byrd says
You know, you can still buy a brand-new Morgan sports car. They haven’t changed a bit. VW went back to it’s Beetle for a new model. Ford went back to the Mustang. GM reintroduces the Camaro, and Dodge, the Hemi Challenger. Everyone is cashing in on a national middle age crisis.
HD shouldn’t try to change with the times; they’ve been an anachronism for 40 years technologically. They need to understand that no one buys one of their bikes because it does anything better -or even as well- as someone else’s bike; there’s only one thing a Harley does well, and that’s be an original.
Harley should go back, and restyle the Sportster. And I don’t mean slap different sheet-metal on it, or a new paint scheme. In my personal opinion, it lost it’s styling magic in 1979, and it’s never regained it. It looks short and pudgy. The frame may have been better engineered, but it no longer looked good. It still doesn’t look good with the triangulated rear section and shocks sitting so far back. The bike has no flow. H.D. should restyle the rear of the frame to resemble the pre-79 Iron heads (and also like the Dyna), and also bump up the engine capacity again to 80 cubic inches. Add 3 degrees of rake to the frame to give the bike a longer, leaner appearance. Make the bike narrow, with an original peanut tank again, but increase the fuel capacity by frisco mounting it. They should also make the cylinder fin profile round because it looks better and makes the cylinders look taller, and stop highlighting the fins like the Jap bikes. . If they did this, I doubt they’d never sell another Nightster.
Derek says
#1
I believe they call it the XR1200
#2
They are called Buells
#3
Sounds good, they really need to do something with that engine.
@Phoebe
I don’t see why certain sportsters aren’t considered standards. yes the customs are more cruisers than standards, but what about roadsters and nightsters, or the xr1200? can we have some examples of what you consider standards?
HoughMade says
I know this steps outside the rules as it would involve a new engine (and chassis), but especially with the demise of the Blast (which did not seem like an effective introduction to Harley), a new 500cc single, possibly twin (cost issue) in a lighter street tracker styling priced below the Sportster 883 would tap the classic motorcycle look market and provide an effective entry point to the harley experience. This is a different economic time for many people and more models at the same price points will not grab younger buyers like a true Harley for less coin would.
Phoebe says
Derek: Triumph Bonneville, Guzzi V7, the new CB1100, Royal Enfield Bullet, etc.
The Sportster’s look, stance and ergos are somewhere between a bobber and a cruiser (depending on the model).
This is what I consider a “standard” version of the Sportster…which we haven’t seen in what…50 years?
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/1967-harley-davidson-xlh-sportster-2.jpg
Richard Gozinya says
Wouldn’t be too hard for them to come up with a decent Revo sport tourer, the Street Rod was already pretty close. Up the fuel capacity, add a sixth gear, throw on a fairing and some luggage and it’s pretty much ready to go.
taxman says
the xr1200 is an excellent place to start. maybe just add a few options like a partial upper fairing and other tid-bits. but the thing they really need to focus on to get me to buy another bike from them is weight. all of their bikes are big fat piggies.
if they just took some effort into putting that xr1200 on a serious diet i would be very hard pressed to not get that as my next bike. and i am looking to get something at some time this next summer.
Paul says
Face it, there are the people who buy into the Harley mythology, and they will buy anything with a V-twin and an HD logo. The rest of us will buy a Harley when their engine and suspension technology moves out of the 1940s, and their pricing drops by half.
I must have read dozens of articles with themes like, “If Harley would just build this sportbike…” or “If Harley would just build an XR750 for the road…”. or “If Harley would just build this backyard special…” The people who buy Harley calendars and Harley dog dishes and Harley sweatshirts care about these articles; the rest of us do not. The marketing gurus at the Motor Company, however, have their business model and they are sticking to it: hype the mythology, change the paint every year, and make billions selling the same stuff for decades. Why would they waste millions trying to build a new sport tourer when Honda and BMW do it so much better?
Tin Man 2 says
Im still looking for a Cagiva/Harley lightweight come spring. This has Heritage with the Aermacchi tie in, and is almost free as the bikes already exist in Europe. Harley guys have been asking for a Tour Model V-Rod for a long time, Where is it? IMHO a Big Twin Sport Bike is to heavy to be a serious ride.
S3Bird says
Harley screwed up their own heritage with the XR1200. That was a bike that a mid 30s guy like me was VERY interested in untill I saw the final rpoduct. Why not update the bodywork on the tube frame Buell Cylcone and call it a Sportster Sport? Its lighter and puts out more horse power than the XR1200. If their take on a “performance” motorcycle can only produce results like the XR1200, they should just stick to cruisers.
I think that they simply gave up in the 70s as far as having any sort of real performance model in their line up. They never have improved since then, but they are much better quality wise. The new 1200C I recently rode shifted great and the rubber mouned engine does knock out some of the vibration. Still felt like it couldn’t breath though and had no feeling of a performance engine. Apples to oranges, but I couldn’t wait to get back on my Speed triple.
Tin Man 2 says
Paul, The Harley brand is price competirive with all the Imports, and has been for Yrs now. Fuel Injection ,ABS brakes,superior sound systems and superior Quality/Fit and Finish keeps HD No.1 in large bikes world wide. Hype and Mythology? Not!! Different Boats for different floats, Its all Good.
kim says
The new 1983 XLX my ex gave me for a wedding present looked fine, but after some years and 6,000+ miles – CT to FL and back to mention but one trip – I wanted it to be more practical. 18″ rear wheel, Norton Commando style tank and seat, a usable headlight plus a real front fender would have been all to make it a practical roadster. Never got around to it though, but the XS650 I have now pretty much works the way such an XLX would have worked. Just doesn’t look as good.
SteveD says
Harley needs to invest in a lighter frame and chop 100 lbs off of the Sportster. There are all sorts of fun styling things that can be done, but the bike is just too heavy for the engine. You need something like the v-twin Buells performance-wise but with more of a cruiser/bobber/cafe type appearance.
secret asian man says
I love the XR1200, and I’m in the target demographic.
I’m not going to pay $12k for it though. That’s Tuono/Super Duke money!
RJ says
This is what I did with my Sportster, I prefer a standard or sport-touring riding position. Stock frame and a mix of stock, vintage and fabricated parts….
http://www.bikeexif.com/harley-sportster-custom
steve w says
Nice job RJ. There are so many ways HD could go with sportsters. I have always liked them but they have gotten to the point where I sometimes wonder who they are build a Sportster for. Long gone are the days when it was king. But man today this bike needs a big bore kit badly. Easy for HD to do leaving the 883 with the present spigot bore and then enlarging the case spigot on the larger model to allow for a standard big bore and get 80+ inches to wake it up. Then they could have some fun with creating other models in the line up. A real street tracker/cafe racer that doesn’t look like the bulky XR 1200 they just did or how about the 2 or 3 degree more rake on the frame or trees.and create a real Custom. I’ve always wanted to do a Custom Sportster with 3 degrees in the trees and 1\ extra length in the swing arm. By stretching this bike out they could also introduce a better touring version. In the end though these bikes would all be boring without some extra grunt to move them down the road. I have had the oppertunity to ride some bigger inch Sportsters and they are FUN. I have also owned several Sportsters with modified 1200cc engines and they are fun but not like more inches. They still only run as fast as you twist the throttle but these bikes have grown heavy and slow.
silverjunkee says
HD, currently, is in the same place the Roman Catholic church was in the 60s. Does it take the necessary steps to innovate and change to invite more into the flock and better its chances of survivability further down the road, but in doing so, risk losing the dogmatic but shrinking population of devotees? Or, does it stick with its current direction and hope that “younger” buyers will do an about face in massive numbers from the dominant appeal within their demographic of Japanese & Italian sport bikes, naked standards (NOT cruisers or bobbers) and cafe-repro segment that seems to bubble up even closer to the surface year to year?
On a similar level, the latter strategy didn’t work for Buick, Oldsmobile or Mercury. What makes anyone think Harley is somehow “different” and can manage to recruit kids now in their 20s to another kind of bike with a completely different character when their in their 40s? It doesn’t work that way anymore; hasn’t for a very long time.
All the things that HD needs to do have already been mentioned: lighter, less expensive and almost as important, a broader definition of the brand that doesn’t require every buyer to embrace the “born-in-the-USA-with-the-freedom-to-be-a-badass-loud-pipes-saves-lives” black & orange apostle’s creed. The question is whether or not they’ve got the balls/brains to do it.
Personally, I’d like to see them find a way to keep the strong brand distinction–do so in a way that incorporates more current technology and engine design–unchain itself from exclusive big bike segment and introduce younger riders to an HD that fits THEM, and doesn’t try and sell them on wearing their daddy’s church clothes.
@Tin Man 2
“Different boats for different floats”? HD’s problem is there’s fewer and fewer people coming aboard their current boat, and it isn’t just because of the bad economy.
frozen prairie says
Hey you guys at Harley Davidson, wake up and hire Rob Jensen to style a new model Sportster !
SteveD says
Really nice work RJ! The funny part is that although I like the cafe look, my Sportster is slowly turning into a mini-bagger.;-)
It’s also intersting how the Sportster keeps coming up. It’s the bike most likely to end up in the right price range, <$10K.
todd says
lots of good responses here. I especially like RJ’s bike. I’d like to mirror what Phoebe said about building a standard like the Guzzi V7 too.
Though I’m a cafe racer at heart, I have quite a few old magazines with Sportsters doing some serious desert sled off-road work. They are even flying off jumps. How many HD guys also own a KTM dirt bike? They could also go mid-way with a true scrambler like Triumph has.
And I agree; there’s no reason why a 40HP bike should weigh close to 600 pounds.
-todd
kevin says
I’m not a big Harley Fan but I love the V-Rod and the Rocker. It’s funny to me that the die-hard Harley guys and gals don’t consider the V-Rod a real Harley.
We always say what we would like to see but it does require an investment from the manufacturer that most don’t want to commit to.
When you say Harley you get a certain image in your mind. Same for Ducati, Triumph and the other manufacturers.
It’s not easy for a company to change that without getting blow back from the faithful.
FREEMAN says
Sounds to me like everyone wants to manipulate HD into their own little sense of what it should be. You’re asking them to be something they are not. I, for one, think it’s amazing they’ve been successful for over a century. I mean cut them some slack, they obviously know what they’re doing to have survived for so long. Take a look at their history and you’ll see everything they’ve survived through. I think they should stick to their roots. If you want crotch rockets with HD powerplants, then ask Buell to make them for you. He’s already there doing it. It wouldn’t be that big of a leap for him to set up a conventional tube frame in one of his bikes. Minimal investment and the possibility of new models. HD does not need to bend to your idea of perfection.
Tin Man 2 says
On the subject of ageing Harley buyers, This is not new, people grow into a Harley,as they always have. Trying to be all things to all people is a sure road to disaster, Look what happened to Cadillac when they tried to cover the whole market, Look at Cadillac now that they have regained Focus on their market segment. If HD brings out a smaller bike thats fine, but dont be dragged into a low cost war with the Import brands, continue to protect your Brand by building only Premium Bikes.
JakeT says
I want HD to survive, but everyone knows their glory days are starting to fade away, and they must innovate if they want to turn their balance sheet around (ie stay afloat).
#1 Keep the style and fit-and-finish
#2 Get the pricing in check. They are over-priced. Yes, I paid way to much for my Harley. I won’t be doing that again.
#3 Get rid of the push-rods and give us a cruiser engine with overhead cams and competing power (Freedom V-Twin from Victory)
#4 Get rid of the Harley attitude
HD, I’m rooting for you. I want to buy another one someday.
Doug says
There is a lot of discussion about performance. While I agree the Sportster should lose weight, I specifically did not write about performance for a couple of reasons…
First, too many people cannot differentiate intended goals of a model vs. the top level of sports bike performance. With every sports coupe or sports sedan introduced, do you instantly compare it against the top sports cars? Then, why do it to motorcycles that are clearly not intended for winning races or even pretending to be a racebike?
Within certain model lines, weight should be the top and (in most cases), the only performance critique. e.g. My overweight Guzzi still runs alongside many skillful riders on much higher-spec machines where the roads matter most. The Triumph Bonneville is a very successful model, yet it is very low on the “spec-sheet infatuated” performance latter. Can it still run fast through a curve in the road? Yes.
Second, performance is measured in numerous ways, especially when talking about street bikes. I did not write about models that would satisfy street riding AND the occasional track day. A HD Big Twin, carrying its GVW of 700+ lbs. plus rider, passenger, and gear can still motor down the road due to its torque. Take that same motor (or a 103″ or 110″) and put it in BTR Moto’s chassis and see what kind of fun you can have on the roads that matter most. Assuming you do not participate in track days or you already have a trackday bike, what good is 180 hp on a 25 mph curvy road (besides catching up when the road straightens out?).
Jesse – good comments. note: this topic was not suggesting any HD models should be replaced.
Freeman – no one has doubted HD’s success. No one is questioning whether or not they know what they are doing. Every model suggested above is distinctively different than a Buell, including BTR Moto’s Big Twin bike. Buell riders have approached Curt indicating that a Big Twin motor option in a steel frame would be desirable. In addition, no Buell model is styled like any of the Cafe Sportsters listed. (btw…RJ – awesome job!). Doesn’t the XR1200 exist today in part because the European HD-base were persistent in asking for something along that line? You shouldn’t have a problem with folks providing *free* input to a brand they admire.
Mark X says
Harley-Davidson corporate, and sales culture is SO entreanched in their own status-quo, that I personally do not believe that they can or want to change up. I believe that would sooner close their doors, than make anything other than the heavy, dated, stereotypical products that they now manufacture. The market moves on, with us or without us. Too bad, Harley-Davidson. Note; I own, and love to ride a Harley. It will last me a lifetime. ( 1991 FLTCU ). RideSafe, Mark.
steve w says
I might mention that while many are thinking HD is in big sales problems I don’t agree. Sure they are cutting some production but thoughout this recession who isn’t? My local dealers still want more bikes and don’t mind lowering the MSRP and would prefer selling for less and selling more to keep parts, accessories, clothing and people working. I mentioned giveing the Sportster more power, not in the sence of trying to make it keep up with the Asian bikes, but to make it more fun to own. We’ll have to see what HD has planned for it’s money spent in Italy. Hopefully they don’t wait to long to show us. In my area I laugh at dealer events quite often. When the HD dealer has an event it is loaded with people often into the thousands attending. When the dealer of 4 asian brands has an event it is attended by 4 or 500. Which event do you want to be part of? HD will be just fine for another 100 even if I never buy another new bike.
John says
A lot of you don’t know what you think you know,you go on perception and rumor.I just looked up these no.s at thier own sites and these are running order wieghts. Honda VTX 1800 cruiser 804lbs.,Goldwing 928 lbs., Shadow 750 550 lbs.,Yamaha Raider cruiser 730 lbs, VStar 650 517 lbs, Venture 869 lbs., Susuki M109 cruiser 764 lbs,C50 805cc 651 lbs,Touring C109 885 lbs,Kawasaki Vulcan 838 lbs, Voyager 895 lbs, Harley Davidson Sportster 1200 581 lbs, SuperGlide 96 ci cruiser 632 lbs,FatBoy cruiser 725 lbs, VRod 670 lbs, and Electraglide Dresser 864 lbs. I think Harley Davidson knows what thier doing and my money,literally, is on them.
dresden says
“I had my reasons for choosing a Harley and you had your reasons for choosing a BMW, Honda, whatever but whatever you ride you are my ally in the war on idiot car drivers trying to kill us.”
Hahahahaha! Right on, brother.
Chris says
I’ve heard from a reasonably good (company-connected) source that Harley’s looking at this issue, and a spiritual successor to the XR-750 is being developed as we speak.
Tin Man 2 says
John, You are correct on the weight issue!! Now for price, The Iron883 is $6900,The 883L is $6400, The Big Twin Super Glide is $11999. A nicely Equiped Touring Bagger starts at $18000. Yes you can spend more on Fancier Models BUT you dont have to. The only worry Harley has in the big bike market does not come from the Asian Imitaters, or from Victory, The new High end Indian Bikes will draw away well healed buyers looking for something Exclusive!!
z says
a ‘bare’ XR883 would be terrific for sales and riders
Phoebe says
A neo-XR750 or XR883 would certainly get my attention!
Doug says
John – thanks for the comment. The Sportster weight when applied to a cafe-style could lose some weight. 581 lbs. is about too much for that intended purpose. I don’t think it would take much to lose a good %. Again, I’m not expecting top sport bike-level weight, but enough weight loss to make the bike that much more fun….which would get the naysayers to realize the fun factor in an air-cooled, pushrod twin.
Secaman says
Harley engines in brit looking bikes…..just doesn’t work. Please harley bike builders….stay with choppers and fade away.
coho says
HD doesn’t need to court 20somethings, they (mostly) don’t buy Harleys.
HD just needs to survive on the current crop of 40-60somethings until those 20somethings who survive that long become the next batch of 40-60somethings.
Bonedog says
Through I’m an old (in many cases) school HD rider Sportsters and Road King. I thought that Buells were the sports bike answer for Harley.
I have heard and in some cases from the sales people at the HD dealership themselves that if they took the V-rod engine and did a sports tourer out of them, they would see a new type of rider come through the door.
They HD need to appeal lower budget market place. I’m a firm believer in you get what you pay for and I have no doubt that my Road King is far superior then other competitors bikes. But some of the folks I ride with that are riding competitor’s bikes because of cost for lower size engines. One answer would be to take the sportsters 883 engine and develop a real cruiser out of it. One issue I’ve always had with the sportster has been the suspension and the length of time I can ride one.
Old guys two cents.
Jacquie says
I like big twins and singles; however, I like lightweight the xr1200 weighs 550 lbs which is too heavy and it only puts out 90 ponies. The sportster frame was never meant to handle. When Willie G put out the Cafe racer sportster goodlooking though it is it handled just like a sportster. He is a desiger that doesn’t talk to engineers. Sometimes I wonder does Harley actually hire engineers or just designers. Have you seen the Ace Cafe Racer. Featherbed frame and 100 cubic inch S & S sportster motor why couldn’t harley build this years ago. I don’t know.
John says
You guys that complain about wieght are correct when comparing a Harley to SportBikes but as I showed in my last post when compared to any other Company’s cruisers and Touring bikes Harleys are almost always lighter.Just look at Harleys own SportBike Division,Buell,they wiegh in at 370 lbs I believe,very light compared to anyone.I do though believe HD should make improvements in wieght and engine technology.But I also believe they should not try to please everyone,Companys and Politicians that try that always fail. Unlike some of you that critisize without ever owning or even ridin a Harley I have happily owned a new ’74 Sportster,’73 Shovlehead SuperGlide and now an 03 SuperGlide.I have ridin CBX 6 cyl.Hondas,Kawasaki 903s.Yamaha XS1100,BMW 1200 Triumph 3 cyl.SportBike and would not trade my HD for any one of them.
fearnow says
@ paul @ Phoebe
What you said.
tim says
John , are you sure you are comparing apples with apples? Manufacturer claimed weights might be without any fluids or without a cylinder head or tyres or something. And trusting any manufacturer to quote accurate weights is, in my view, naive.
The only weight in a motorbike that really counts is what the thing weighs ready to rock, with a full tank of gas. If thats what’s being quoted, fine, if not, then whats the point?
There are only two models in the HD range that excite me: the 1200 Nightster and the XR1200.
And as proof of my ability to value style over substance, I can tell you my street bike is an 08 Triumph Scrambler. Somewhat fettled.
David says
No matter what the motor company did to appease its detractors they still would not own a Harley. Harley will be here as long as there is a here to be. They will never be whiz-bang like Japanese bikes or super model sexy like Italian bikes. Maybe Harley wins most iconoclastic motorcycle because it is the raw clay that people like RJ and those in this article turn into the best bikes in the world, “their bike”. You will never buy the feelings these men have for their creations. The incarnations seen in Harley’s from desert racers to café racers, geezerglide to choppers will never be seen in any other brand. From the very beginning people have been making Harley what they are not the motor co.
FREEMAN says
@ David: Well said.
todd says
Some food for thought:
http://dirtbike.off-road.com/dirtbike/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=328853
or:
http://nachtflug.smugmug.com/photos/178728826_GFwEf-L.jpg
or:
http://rustyspuds.smugmug.com/photos/452290944_igTSd-L.jpg
Somehow these seem more hard-core than your every day GS.
-todd
John says
Tim,Yes at all the sites quoted there is a dry weight and a wet weight,easy enough to check out,google it.I know the Harley weights are accurate because I have weighed my bike with a full tank it is 630 lbs exactly.I just looked at the HD site again and the wet weight for the SuperGlide is 663 lbs but mine is an 03 with a solo seat and rear pegs taken off and the frame,axles,and front forks of the new ones make them heavier.
Tin Man 2 says
Todd, Thanks for the Links. In these days of Monster Adventure bikes the Sporty fits right in. Still kind of heavy, but OH the Torque. Im going to be fooling with my Ironhead Flat Track style bike and try to remove some serious weight. These old Sportys have low value in the market so cutting one up is no big deal, Im not in the Desert so heat should not be a problem with this stone age engine.
S3Bird says
Good call Todd.
The Sporty is a narrow with a low center of gravity, and has a lot of low end torque. I’m not sure if its ugly enough to be an “adventure bike” though.
Doug says
David –
This article was not intended for any HD detractors. It was intended for Harley riders who would like another HD in their garage and/or the demographic that would like a Harley, but there isn’t the model closest enough to what they have in mind as a reasonable starting point. Introducing a cafe model to the Sportster line would not remove one’s ability to make a Harley your own any more than an HD Rocker takes to make it your own.
As far as HD not being “whiz bang”…I even mentioned that in the Post above. See: “The Sport Touring options on the market today are all fairly sedate in terms of character (possibly too much refinement in the engine, regardless of the performance?). How about some hotrod soul to go with the sport touring comfort and luggage?”
As far as HD not being “super model sexy like Italian bikes” – exactly.
I totally disagree with the Seca-lover above who says a cafe approach doesn’t work with an HD. The people building the Cafe Sportsters are primarily Not choppers guys.
There is a gap in the market for a buyer who is interested in a sporting bike with classic styling just as there was when the HD XLCR was introduced.
prospective buyer’s choices :
-Ducati Sport Classic – good, but not exactly what I want.
-Triumph Bonneville – good, but I want more torque and a v-twin rumble.
-Honda CB – cool, but I want an air-cooled twin
-BMW – classic-styled air-cooled, sporting twin does not exist (their boxers, although awesome would not be at the top of the list for the same reason the Buell air-cooled models would not be on the top of the list…the classic styling is missing)
-Guzzi – look-out if they put their bigger motor in a bike styled like the V7. Otherwise, does not exist.
David says
Doug –
I enjoyed your article and agree with it. I would love to see the revo in a roadglide with ABS/TC, heated seat and grips or a new version of the 78 XLCR with real purpose styling and performance. The problem is my beloved motor co. is not going to put the revo in a roadglide it cost to much for return on investment. Govt. regulations on noise, emissions and safety preclude building a lightweight high performance XR or XLCR based on their current engines and I don’t think they will be be building another engine that would anytime soon. That leaves all the little guys like BTR that can. I suspect that if you combined all the businesses that build bikes based on Harley’s they would be the second largest American motorcycle company . Harley Davidson is between a unique rock and hard place.
Ceolwulf says
@ David – calling the brand that by far outsells any other in North America “iconoclastic” is a little … odd, no?
Some (many) don’t want Harley to ever change, and they’ll keep buying. Others wouldn’t buy a Harley no matter what they built. After all they’ve been digging themselves into the same groove deeper and deeper for so many years now, you might as well get a young guy to buy a Buick as a Harley.
When BMW decided to finally shed their “old man” image (which is nowhere near as entrenched as Harley’s image) they built the S1000RR. That’s what it takes. Deciding whether Harley-Davidson would ever do something like that is left as an exercise for the reader.
marvin says
As I fall into this category, I doubt the way to appeal to younger riders is to make it look like a standard or cafe brit bike from the fifties / sixties when we think retro we think Eddie Lawson’s Kawa not a cafe racer. Our generations cafe racer was the SRX and that’s been out of production for a long time now. While these designs would surely broaden the appeal I think it would just appeal to more over forties riders rather than attracting the young crew. The TC Sport would certainly attract my attention in the bike shop for a while before I went and bought a superduke.
David says
ceowulf-
Nice catch, easy but the jokes on me I blame auto word check and fat fingers on the keys. What’s really embarrassing is a proof read it and still missed it. I of course meant iconic. DOUH!
Doug says
hey Marvin – good points.
The cafes are still a hot trend right now. There are enough of the upper-end of the 25-40 demographic interested in that era.
Two key points of the topic: relatively low investment & short timeframe to-market. The Sportster line is there for the tweaking & BTR Moto’s model exists now. It just needs mass production. So, your comment (“The TC Sport would certainly attract my attention in the bike shop for a while”) is a great first step. Get it on the showroom floor, so people can ride it. “Surprise. surprise, surprise” (that’s Gomer Pyle for the younger crowd)
Caveman says
Guys most of the riders I know don’t own a stock HD you buy it cheep and add parts to make your own
Fireworks says
I suggest that the Japan Harley riders in Japan have the right idea. Some of the designs are too custom to be viable from a mass production point of view but the designs are attractive. Many of the designs are simply
http://www.sundance.co.jp/gallery/gallery.html
http://www.trampcycle.com/gallery/custom/index.html
With respect to a new minimal investment model, I’d say that finding a way to put a ‘Sport’ model back into the Sportster and Dyna lineup would be good. This seems to be the area that most people are interested in here at least. Or, simply introduce the idea of a ‘Sport’ package that is a factory option; using Screaming Eagle etc parts. This shorts the dealers on labour profit though. (The whole profit model of accessories, apparel, labour at the dealer level is going to be a showstopper for many ideas)
With that in mind here is what I think should be added as models:
1) Sportster with twin brakes and Screaming Eagle modded.
2) Dyna with twin brakes, and Screaming Eagle modded.
3) One of these http://hotrodsbikeworks.automotive.com/23806/0306hrb-mickey-rourke-black-death/photos0-0.html
4) Dump the V-Rod, and replace with something based on Buell tech
5) Merge Buell back into HD, and dump all of the Buell models. There is a reason people are still looking for a more performance oriented HD. Buells are seen as HD.
The thing that I think get missed is that HD took the current path a long time ago. They basically were on track to include a more sport oriented perspective back in the early 1980’s with the FXD. The financial crisis made they dump that idea and stick to the money train; which was and still is cruisers. If they start adding and the sport ‘bikes’ again and continue on with the Dark Custom stuff I think they’ll be fine. It a going to take a corporate culture change first and foremost though.
fireninja says
The above discussion has been quite interesting. As as a 32 year old rider who has owned 30 odd bikes and primarily oscillated between standard bikes and cruisers, here is my 2cents:
If Harley wants to edge into the younger market they should start making something new which is actually targeted at the younger market. The cheapest, ‘entry level’ Harley (the 2010 Sportster 883 Low) has a MSRP of $6,999 — a hard sell for a late teen or early 20 something. It also weighs 583 pounds, which is pretty heavy for an inexperienced rider. Moreover, even in the Harley crowd, an 883 isn’t cool — it is mocked as a girl’s bike or a poor man’s bike.
If Harley want’s younger riders they need a $3k, 400lb bike which looks cool. A Blast-style 1/2 Sportster thumper engine in a classic or cafe styled vintage-standard style frame could be that bike. If it had a low center of gravity, and a nice low power band with classic looks and a good ad campaign you’d start seeing them in high school parking lots and on college campuses instead of Harley being exclusive to suburbs and 55+ “retirement communities.” If they made a “racer version” with a dunstall style fairing (ala the Ducati Paul Smart), low bars and rearsets for $4k they wouldn’t be able to keep them in stock.
Buying a motorcycle is, for most of us, an aesthetic decision — more so than most other purchases. I read the specs and ponder the practical implications of the various tech, but if I think the bike is ugly, I’m probably not going to buy it. Let’s face it: Buell’s styling isn’t for everyone (I personally think that the Blast is horrifically ugly). But if you take the basic specs and price of a Blast, and make it look and feel more like a an XR1200 with Harley badging and targeted advertising putsch you will have a winner, and a new generation of Brand converts.
p.s. For the purists who worry about Harley diluting their “Premium Brand” with a cheap entry level product, I remind them that the Premium Brand’s logo is slapped on every type of crap imaginable from teddybears to flip flops.
Doug S says
fireninja – well written. I agree with everything, right down to the flip flops. The models you proposed would expand the demographic I was considering in this post from (25 – 40) to 19+
previous HD management built the Aermacchi. Why does it seem so far out of the current HD management to consider these types of bikes? Cafe-style little bikes have been a great trend over the decades, but now they are getting to be mainstream on both shores.
A single cylinder and Sportster-based twin (Thunderbolt engine) fit well into developing additional markets with relatively little investment. The accessory catalogue could be successful too.
Tommy says
What do you think HD could do to make the HOG experience more attractive to younger HD riders?
James says
well,m here is my two cents, the average age of the Harley buyer is about 47 (as of 2008 from H-D), the average age in the U.S. 36.7 with 24.5% under the age of 18 (2008 again from U.S. census), now I don’t see many teenagers buying a new motorcycle in general.. and that 10 year difference in between the average H-D customer and U.S. age does not seem that big to me, honestly I think they are doing just fine the way they are. Times are tough and the news is just tiring to scare some ratings, not to say I wouldn’t want to see something radical from H-D but the numbers seem pretty well rounded as to the way H-D is running. that an I love the look of the new “48” Sportster
James says
P.S fireninja I very much enjoyed you commet
Rudy Pyatt says
Well, I’m just above the age cut for this demographic (45 upcoming). But (having been interrupted in the mad scheme by some medical issues), I intend to begin riding this year. So I’d say that the broader question is, what else can (or will) Harley provide to newer riders of any age?
With the Blast gone (and I understand that it was the single best selling model in the entire Harley line), the only possible bike IS the 883 Sportster. It’s an attractive proposition, but the weight and price are a concern. I like the idea of a 450 or 500cc single, and I’ve read that in the deeps of time, Singles were a big part of the Motor Company’s success. I’ve also read that the Blast engine was originally developed for just such an H-D, but that they didn’t want to undercut the 883. They still have that engine, but what frame could they put it in? A restyled Blast? A cut-down Sportster frame? Like the OP said, cost and time to market are the keys, so those are the only likely options if they go this route.
Won’t happen in time for me (fingers crossed for a May road test and license), but it would be nice to have the option of getting an XR 500!
Andrew says
I will be getting a Sportster soon. Used and hopefully I’ll be able to hold out, be patient and scoop up a good one for less than $3000. There are a few in my neck of the woods at that price point, just hope they hold out long enough for my funds to build up. My opinion, as someone who is getting his first bike and I am 27 is Harley builds all the right stuff. I am in the guitar business and Fender and Gibson have been selling the same guitar for a long time and they show no signs of slowing down. It’s the same for Harley; it’s Americana. I really liked RJ’s sportster. I guess I would be the target demographic as someone who wants a Harley for not a lot of money.
I really think that they could go a little cheaper but not too much. A sportster sized bike with an engine like the VROD would be cool. Something that screams Harley but has a European aura to it. That would probably be pricey so if you keep that idea and have it be a one cylinder engine and have it be between $4000 and $5000.
I really like the sportster. It’s like a 60’s muscle car that they keep making new year after year. The 60’s muscle car was perfect. It was all down hill from there as far as style is concerned. The sportster is a thing of beauty. It’s a little outdated but who cares? It’s in the same league as the Fender Strat and Gibson Les Paul.
Teck wee says
Give me the cafe gt any day
Jim says
Harley had the makings of a great sport touring machine. It was called the Buell Ulyssess XT and unfortunately died with the close of Buell Motorcycles.
Ken says
I’ve always wanted a Harley. Its the brand name. Its the fact that its American.
The problem has been threefold:
1. To expensive
2. They haven’t had what I want and I don’t want to have to do a major customization to get it there.
3. The perception that the 883 and 1200 sportster was a girls bike kept me away.
So I bought a Shadow Sabre instead. That was 9 years ago. Now I still have that bike, plus a few more since then. Now I am in my mid thirties and want something different. The Versys is looking awful good. Last year’s model, brand new, can be had for 5 grand. That little 650 standard goes and is highly customizible. Honestly, if HD made a new XR750 or a XR500 based off the old blast motor, I would have to find a reason not to buy it. Lightweight steel frame, excel rims, brembo brakes. Start with the motor you have and then develope a 750 that has some of that wow factor like a Duc.
They could take that Blast motor and make Peashooters like HD did back in the day. HD didn’t always have large bore engines….
Maybe we shouldn’t keep wishing for what HD hasn’t delivered. Maybe we should all collectively turn our attention to Victory. They are young enough to try something new. Polaris makes amazing ATVs, Snowmobiles and Watercraft. Maybe they want our hard earned American dollars?
Then again… This post is 15 months old…