Harley Davidson’s decision to close the Buell motorcycle company and discontinue production was met with great surprise and disappointment from many in the motorcycle community, but it was the further decision, not to pursue the sale of Buell to any interested investors, that has puzzled industry observers and frustrated many who would like to keep the company in business. Why would Harley Davidson eliminate 180 positions and incur $125 million in one-time costs related to the discontinuation of Buell without trying to to save those jobs or recover at least a portion of those costs?
A challenging economy requires tough choices and, in this case, Harley Davidson decided not to use any more of their limited resources to continue building Buells, Buell is not at the core of Harley Davidson’s business. When times are tight companies must focus on their primary products to preserve as much of the company as possible, however, not pursuing the sale to allow for an independent Buell, essentially driving a stake into the heart of the company, is very difficult to figure out. What does it accomplish? How does Harley Davidson benefit from killing Buell entirely?
Some years ago, Harley Davidson reached out to the U.S. government for protective tariffs to help keep them going when it looked like they would fail. Those on board at the time just wanted to keep the company going long enough to enable the company to stand on its own, saving the jobs and continuing the great tradition of Harley Davidson. The tariffs were granted, making imported large displacement motorcycles more expensive, in effect, all U.S. motorcycle buyers helped keep Harley going. Harley wanted the chance and they got it, their employees remained on the job, the company survived.
Buell, the only American sport bike manufacturer, is now being shut down, the employees losing their jobs, when all Harley Davidson has to do is sell the company to investors willing to continue on. No protective tariffs and no bailouts are requested or necessary, Harley Davidson can just let Buell go. Isn’t it odd that the company that went as far as requesting and receiving government intervention on its own behalf in order to survive and save American jobs is now unwilling to do far less for Buell, to just let go so Erik and his team can get the same chance to survive that Harley Davidson had?
Some recent communications confirms the “Barracuda II” in development when Buell was shut down. It would have been, and still could be, an extraordinary motorcycle, perhaps finally fulfilling the promise of a world class American sport bike. Is there anyone at Harley Davidson that understands what Buell was about to produce?
Before any of those who never cared for Buell motorcycles in the first place jump in with comments about insufficient sales, how they didn’t like their styling or thought they underperformed, please remember, those opinions have nothing to do with the question of why someone else should not have a chance to keep the company going. Obviously, an independent Buell could fail anyway, success, like everything else in life, is not guaranteed. If investors are foolish to try, the investors are at risk, no one else needs to worry about it. But suppose, … just suppose, outside investors are able to build an independent Buell into a thriving world class American sport bike company, is there any reason at all why they should not have the opportunity to try?
Harley Davidson has been a pillar of the American motorcycle market for over a century, but Buell, too, has established itself for these past 26 years, building motorcycles in a segment of the market not served by traditional Harley Davidson motorcycles. Buell is not a threat to the Motor Company, Buell can be another pillar standing next to Harley Davidson, both companies together serving a wide swath of the American motorcycle market. But Buell needs the chance to continue.
Now that Harley Davidson needs every incoming dollar to ensure its own survival, they can no longer support Buell, but this does not require permanent closure of a division that at times seemed an awkward fit among the cruisers and chrome.
Sometimes it isn’t just numbers on a spreadsheet that tilt the outcome of a decision in a particular direction, and we can speculate a long time about the real reasons Harley Davidson wants to bury Buell completely, but they may want to clarify their position on preventing the sale of Buell, explaining why Buell should not be given a chance to continue on their own, because the one thing they can be sure of, the whole process will continue to invite a lot of questions and the answers people keep coming up with may not reflect well on the Motor Company. (Some further thoughts here)
Our economy, now more than ever, needs companies willing to fight to succeed, to build products they are passionate about, to do what needs to be done. To anyone at Harley Davidson who may be able to help this happen, … stand up and let Buell go, give them the same chance to continue that Harley Davidson had, both Harley Davidson and Buell and all of the employees involved will be far better for it.
See also:
What was Buell Working on When the End Came?
Last Buell Motorcycle has Been Built
Buell Supporters Trying to Save the Company
Buell Motorcycles to be Discontinued
Chris says
like I said before…I have a funny feeling that the reason they didn’t sell Buell is that their extended plans are to resurrect Buell, and the only reason for this shut down was to temporarily make the Company’s numbers look better on paper. This explanation makes sense to me. It is similar to lay-offs. The overall cost of laying people off is more than keeping them on, especially when the business is without a doubt, going to recover. It’s all about the numbers. If they look crappy, they loose their investors (shareholders).
Al says
Paul,
I hope you cc’d the HD board of directors with this piece, they owe the stockholders (and the loyal Buell fans) straight-up answers to the questions you raise.
IMHO, the present economic/market conditions and the recent history of motorcycle startups/failures in this country make it impossible to fund a motorycle company at this time. In a year or two, perhaps conditions will be better for investment in such an endeavor.
In addition, the playing field here in the USA is really tough for anyone in the manufacturing buisness. Corporate tax rates are sky-high, as is overhead to carry such investments forward. Point is, it ain’t just HD pounding stakes in the heart of Buell, national influences on buisness investment need an overhaul that favors such endeavors.
Tin Man 2 says
The big question is, Why did Erik stay with Harley? I hope there are plans to use his imput on the HD lineup. Has anyone been granted an interview yet? Our Government could learn alot about keeping secrets from HD.
dan says
I believe put in the light of this very well written piece Buell may be the one chink in Harley’s huge success story. HD has roots to the wa, a huge in house take over story, bad boy roots to Gangs across the country, and even racing roots. This is all good for the image of a brand that has thus far been untarnished. However as the article states no attempt was made to save jobs. Ouch! This is a tarnish to the image and Victory may swoop in and take market share away from this “American” company! One thing is for sure, Davidson the grandson of the Ben Davidson indeed is the real thing a true American and he may have to take charge of this whole Buell debacle!
Fernando says
American corporate management has never been about producing the product in the world. It is about maximizing return on investment. To Harley that may mean selling a \lifestyle\ (T-shirst, hats, whatever) not necessarily the best morocycles in the world. That same mentality has GM and Chrysler in the condition it is at. It’s the MBA’s that are running companies now….not \car guys\ or \real motorcyclist enthusiasts\. When Erik Buell signed up with HD, he was signed a death sentence. The days of Henry Ford, Harley & Davidson families or Preston Tuckers, with their names and reputations on the line along with their passion for their products, are gone. Today these execs are \managing\ HD, next year it will be Pepsi or Goldman Sachs!
Paulinator says
WOW! 125 million to kill a bike company (division)? What could Eric or the other custom builders do with that kind of cash injection? I guess I’m simple but I think that this kind of stupidity should be legislated against.
John says
Harley has to survive and they are doing what they see as necessary to do that.I have heard that Eric Buell is still working for Harley Davidson so they obviously are going to put his talent to work and as for the 180 people out of work,I’m a union carpenter in Hawaii and I am unemplyoed along with THOUSANDS of other carpenters and other job descriptions, that’s just the way it is when the economy is like this.For Harley haters to continue carping about it is unrealistic and just being used as an excuse to say bad things about thier hated Harley.I know that some are not necassarily Harley haters but just annoyed that Buells are gone but what is,is,and maybe there are plans for a future that we know nothing of.
pabsy says
well its conjecture on everyones part i would think the main pieces are:
1 tax write off or other tax related benefits
2 competition or distraction to the harley brand real or percieved
3 intellectual property and patents, although for the most part i’d call buell’s attempts nonsense engineering…
RJ says
HD has almost gone under twice: In the late ’60’s they were subject of a hostile takeover and bought by AMF, and then in the ’80’s when a last-second deal on Wall Street at the end of the year secured credit and they avoided filing for bankrupcy. The tariffs came after. What you fail to mention is that Vaughn Beals at Harley-Davidson requested that the tariffs be removed early once HD was sound.
Buell did not sell enough bikes, and was not making money. Harley-Davidson can do whatever they see fit in order to preserve their company. They have eliminated plenty of jobs at their Product Development Center, as well as reduced or stopped production elsewhere. They won’t sell Buell off because they own all the intellectual property that they funded – which covers all the XB and newer models.
We are in a deep recession, Buell was a casualty. Maybe they will be back like Chris says, but that will be up to Harley-Davidson.
MikeT says
Too little too late.
Finally Buell was putting together decent bikes and then the economy falls out from under them.
I was looking forward to a sport tourer with the Helicon engine. I guess I’ll never see it materialize.
I never thought it was a good mix having Buell and Harleys in the same dealership. I don’t think the Buell riders want to hang with the HD posers.
kneeslider says
John, this isn’t about hating Harley, I want them to survive and prosper. I only ask why they won’t give Buell the same opportunity.
RJ, yes they removed the tariffs early, once they got on their feet, again, Buell is just looking for the same chance.
“They won’t sell Buell off because they own all the intellectual property”
Yes they do, so why not sell it?
Those of you saying HD must take action to survive are repeating what I said in the post. What I’m asking is why they won’t allow Buell to go it alone.
Hawk says
When you sell your company, you’ve sold your soul.
Eric Buell is just the latest casualty to cut throat MBAs.
Tin Man 2 says
dan. Im sure you thought about jobs when you bought your bike. Foreign Right? Now you want to slam HD for cutting jobs. Any excuse to go on hating what you dont understand.———–MikeT, Maybe the Harley Riders dont want to hang with the Buell power rangers. You know every Marque has its clicks, Sport Guys are just as clanish as HD riders can be. All the Harley riders I know respect the Sportbikes for there performance, But do not like that kind of riding. Do Sport guys respect Harleys for their cruiser ability? or just make fun of them for not being racers?
Jon says
I’m surprised there is so much encouragement for HD to sell Buell.
Think about this question: what is there to sell?
The rights to the name is the only significant asset that Buell has. Harley-Davidson could almost undoubtedly sell the rights for a reasonable amount. That said, what would be the terms of sale? It would be a can of worms — would H-D have to agree to continue producing Buells for a few years (a la GM/Hummer)? Would H-D allow the new owner to continue producing the same designs or would they be required to make new bikes? Would H-D have to allow new Buells to be sold in their dealerships?
Here’s another question: why would someone want to buy Buell?
There is a smorgasboard of small motorcycle companies. The goal of buying Buell would be to get instant name-recognition. Unless a new owner were somehow able to secure the rights to H-D distribution (unlikely) and complete access to Buell’s most recent models/designs, why should I, as a motorcycle enthusiast, want that?
If someone out there has a new bike design and wants to make a name for him/herself, great. I can get onboard with that. Why that design would feature anything from H-D…I cannot say.
Jensen Beeler says
I try to keep my opinion on this subject to writings on my own site, rather than committing the taboo of disagreeing with someone else on their own platform, but found it too hard to stay silent this time around.
Paul, while I have always admired your work here, and respect you for your thoughtful opinions on the motorcycle industry (despite the fact they usually differ from my own), this post grossly misconstrues the events surrounding Buell’s closure.
I’ll preface, that I have no special insight into the inner-workings of Harley-Davidson, just an M.B.A., and experience sitting on a company’s board of directors, managing subsidiary groups. So I’ll share my point-of-view, which like everyone else’s, should be filed under the appropriate title of “comments from the peanut gallery”.
Let’s talk about Harley-Davidson, Inc. Note, this is not Harley-Davidson the cruiser manufacturer, or Harley-Davidson the American brand that we know and love. Harley-Davidson the company owns three active motorcycle brands, (HD, Buell, and MV Agusta), all of which are part of different segments in our industry. Despite this, Harley-Davidson (the brand) contributes the lion’s share to Harley-Davidson’s (the company) yearly balance sheet.
Also, let’s also recognize the fact that Harley-Davidson, Inc. owes nearly $1B in debt with interest rates around 15%. A huge financial burden in its own right, that when coupled with the disastrous sales that followed from the economic slowdown, creates a situation where not only does the company have a sizable monthly tab to pay down, but also is finding it harder and harder to maintain the cash flows that supported the decision to take this financial obligation on in the first place.
Add into this the affects of a credit market that has completely collapsed, thus making it harder for customers to purchase motorcycles unless they have the lump sum in hand (does anyone want to take a guess on how many motorcycles are bought through financing options?) and the situation turns dire rapidly for the company from Milwaukee.
So that’s the situation facing the board of directors, which you’ve correctly stated owe their shareholders a great deal. In fact, they owe their jobs to the shareholders, who legally should be their first and foremost concern at all times.
Let’s role play for a minute, and assume you are sitting on the Harley-Davidson board. Your company is teetering on the edge (net income is down 71% from last year), you’ve ousted the CEO that got you into this mess, and you’re facing the distinct possibility that your American motorcycle company could be following in the footsteps of the American auto manufacturers…except there is no bailout in sight.
In this situation, the options are limited. You need to reduce expenses, and raise cash quickly to pay your debts. This means cutting costs, and selling off anything that isn’t bolted down to the floor…it also means focusing on the products that bring real revenue into the company, namely Harley-Davidson the brand. This is corporate triage at its finest hour.
The decision to sell MV Agusta is a simple cash equation. HD, Inc. needs money, and you can get that needed revenue from selling the sport bike manufacturer, bonus points for the fact the Italian company never really made sense with HD ownership in the first place. But what to do with Buell?
As I’ve read too many times, Buell enthusiasts believe the company should have been spun-out of HD, Inc. just like MV Agusta was/will be. But what would a standalone Buell Motorcycles look like?
Any purchaser of Buell Motorcycles would face the following problems with their purchase:
– No functioning supply/support-chain (Buell piggybacks off the suppliers and carriers for Harley-Davidson, as well as HD’s distribution points)
– No way to finance purchases (Buell is financed under HD, Inc’s credit arm)
– No points of sale (Buell’s are sold inside HD dealers)
– Problems with the XB line, which uses an HD power plant and common parts bin
Because of the previous mentioned problems, Buell on its own would not be a viable company, and was likely only ever profitable because it could use the infrastructure already set in place by the Harley-Davidson line of motorcycles. With all these problems, only a company who was able to invest a great deal of capital, or had similar efficiencies of scale could realistically purchase Buell. Who would that be?
Immediately rule out any other motorcycle manufacturer.
The industry has been hit too hard by the financial crisis to acquire anything. These companies have slashed all of their budgets to nothing, even the company rugby squad (Yamaha). Not that these companies would be eager to take on the Buell brand in the first place. But even if they were, realize that these are the only purchasers that could take on Buell, without having to invest millions of dollars to set up the necessary structures that Harley-Davison currently provides Buell. This leaves institutional investors as Buell’s only hope.
For them, the same problems still apply. These are groups that are feeling the financial crunch, and very few of them are going to be able to get the loans needed to make a serious purchase/investment like Buell.
Let’s not even get into the discussion of whether or not Buell would be a good investment for these investment groups (companies based on customer discretionary goods are a hard sell in the VC/PE/I-Bank world), and instead focus on what Buell “for sale” would look like.
A purchaser would get a brand that has questionable value, a small factory in East Troy, and thousands of outstanding warranty obligations. There isn’t a lot of value in a company that looks like that, and Harley-Davidson, Inc. knows this.
You cannot remove Buell from Harley-Davidson, Inc. and have a meaningful company be the result. Buell the company is too intertwined and too dependent on its parent company for its business survival. End of story.
Could we see Buell come back as a company when Harley-Davidson is more financially sound? Maybe, it certainly is an option if the company chooses to pursue that avenue. But seeing Buell live on right now under another company’s umbrella, or on its own? Not going to happen, and any attempt to do so would be a waste of Harley-Davidson, Inc’s. resources and finances, which the company knows before even crunching the numbers.
While I understand that many enthusiasts don’t want to see Buell and what it stood for die, you’re misleading yourself and your readers postulating that anything but this outcome could have occurred. Harley-Davidson, Inc. faced a simple choice, and made a simple decision: lose their entire company, including THE biggest brand in American motorcycling, or sell/close two companies that took resources away from their largest money-maker. That choice, for a board of directors, is an easy one to make, and is done with the best interests of shareholders in mind.
todd says
Yep, Buell is too closely associated with Harley Davidson. Buell’s greatest selling bikes had Harley motors in them. This would not be the case if, say, Honda or Victory purchased Buell. Harley would not let anyone sell their engines. A new Buell could not survive long enough on sole sales of the 1125 bike; at least not long enough to justify the purchase price AND the investment required for future model development.
Just imagine if a company came in and made a success out of Buell. What would that say about Harley management? No, it’s pride that keeps Harley from letting go. Just like that selfish toddler comment someone made before.
Me, I’m looking forward to the next American sportbike company to come along. Maybe it’s Modus, maybe it’s Roehr.
-todd
Ogre says
Tin Man:
That doesn’t really work. I’d certainly have considered HD when buying my last bike – if HD actually made a bike that I’d be willing to own. I’m not a a cruiser guy, and HD’s lineup doesn’t do it for me. I did seriously consider Buell for the previous bike to that, only to find the dealers here in the Bay Area unwilling to spare any attention to a potential customer.
The problem with the shutdown is not that HD is jettisoning Buell, but that they could have avoided a huge hit to their bottom line, and kept the workers employed, simply by announcing that the Buell brand and IP was for sale. Ther are investor who’d have gladly taken them up on it – they may have failed eventually, but that’s a different issue. The shutdown doesn’t make any kind of sense, to my mind. It makes the exec @ HD look like fools who don’t care about their employees.
Cole says
Jensen – you embody the severe problems with American business…but you didn’t read that in your MBA program.
“…they owe their jobs to the shareholders, who legally should be their first and foremost concern at all times.”
No, a solid, strong company has an equal balance between good investors and the long-term plan. It is this type of short-sided staunch belief/trust in Wall St. that contributed to the financial collapse.
“This is corporate triage at its finest hour.”
ha! unimaginative, short-sided talking head
Why is the sale of MV Augusta so simple to you compared to Buell? They fit into every challenging category that you state above about Buell. :
another moto manufacturer would likely be the best fit for distribution reasons, support, warranty, etc. — no difference between Buell and MV
good investment? The new MV Augusta company has always been in Debt and the public perception is exclusivity (read: low volume, high unit prices, existing debt)
The reason MV Augusta is up for sale and not being killed is that HD would suffer a worldwide backlash for killing that brand.
Brad says
Ok Im A CANADIAN so this may not count for the USA thought process but hey MARKET and DOLLARS are what make or break a company. If Buell had done more in the racing side, which they were and had been more successful would it have made a difference, I don’t know. But The question is why would HD not give them the chance to sell or at least make a deal for the company to get back out on thier own like it was in the beginning?? This can be as mentioned above , TAX Credits? Write offs for the HD company, or a number of things we don’t know about? Is there no reason that Eric cannot continue to develop and race his machines or is he as stated above SOULESS and under HD’s command for his dailey bread? Maybe us sportster riders for many a year are finaly going to get a real performance machine again, like the BELOVED XLHCR from yesteryear?? I only wonder at what expense to HD (not just money), will this effect thier bottom line, I’m certainly not a financial wizard but I am a loyal HD rider, because I just like thier product, and I like the idea that they saved the company by buying it back with thier own emplyees and public shares back in the 70’s, this really doesn’t sound like that company anymore, at least not from a Canadian perspective?
RATS
Jason says
Going the route to “resurrect Buell” at some point is a failed direction. What a great way of creating brand loyalty. It’s kind of like the Cleveland Browns of the motorcycle world. “They took our team”
mark says
Interesting comment by Jensen, but I don’t buy it. Look what John Bloor did with Triumph — the company was dead, nearly all of the IP he got in the buyout was so thoroughly obsolete that there was no point in leveraging most of it, in fact pretty much the only thing of value Bloor got was the Triumph brand. (I believe he also hired some of the engineering staff). Yes, I hear the immediate argument, Triumph is a much better-known brand than Buell — but the difference is Buell was an active company developing interesting new products and would not need to be rebuilt from the ground up as Triumph needed.
Using the Harley engine for the XB series? Why is this an issue? Harley sells plenty of crate motors. Or the new owner of Buell could use S&S engines, or its own V-Twin. For example, if Polaris bought Buell, they could use Victory’s V-Twin in place of Harley’s. There’s no reason the supply-chain issues couldn’t be sorted out — production might have to be shut down for a while, or shifted to concentrate on the 1125, which uses a Rotax engine instead of a Harley one, but in the grand scheme of things, that’s an easily surmountable problem. Again I’ll reference Triumph — recall that their sole factory burned to the ground in 2002 (also remember that this was before their rapid growth of the past 5 years — at the time Triumph was still quite a small company). If Triumph could not only bounce back from such a disaster but soon expand their capacity and put out the terrific bikes that have been getting so much attention the past few years, then Buell should be able to switch to a different engine for the XB series.
Yes, I know, the economy sucks right now. It might be hard to find a buyer. This is all understood. I could even see HD halting Buell production until a buyer is found. But to flatly refuse to sell the company? This just strikes me as petty, not to mention insulting to the people who’ve worked hard to build Buell into what it is, and to all the customers who’ve bought Buells. HD management could at least put Buell on the auction block and see if someone’s interested in buying it. If not, then fine, shut it down. But the fact that HD’s management is arrogant enough to simply refuse to consider it means that I will simply refuse to buy any Harley-Davidson product from here on out, even if they start making bikes that really appeal to me. I just can’t support that kind of decisionmaking.
kneeslider says
Jensen,
“the taboo of disagreeing with someone else on their own platform”
No, that doesn’t exist here, always open to other points of view.
Unless, and until, we hear from Erik Buell and/or members of the board, many of the excellent points you bring up will be difficult to debate. What could have been part of any deal to separate Buell from HD is unknown. What would have been necessary for a separate or “new” Buell to operate, let alone survive, would have to be determined by those willing to make the attempt.
The only point I will take issue with is your absolute conviction that it could not possibly work while you admit to no special insight into the inner workings of Harley. I share your “outside looking in” perspective, yet I have learned over many years that others can sometimes see what I do not. You may be absolutely correct in your summation, … or you may be very far off the mark.
As I said in the post above, success is not guaranteed, in fact, there may be no investors willing to step forward which would make this entire conversation moot, but you seem to reflect the view, most probably prevalent in the board room when this decision was made, “We don’t see how it could possibly work, therefore it can’t work.” You seem to have a very clear view of the future inaccessible to most of us mortal beings.
Looking for absolute certainty of success before moving forward is a sure prescription for going nowhere at all, not trying guarantees the same outcome as the failure you are trying to avoid. I wonder, if Erik Buell had approached you 26 years ago, would you have backed him? Or would you have listed the impossible odds and shaken your head at the sight of this hopeless dreamer?
Cal H says
I keep seeing comments on this and other threads that “Buells didn’t sell” This is simply not true, Buell sold nearly 13,000 bikes last year, about even with US sales for BMW and ahead of Triumph’s US sales. At that volume Buell should have been profitable or at least very close to break even. In addition Buell sales had increased yearly for the last several years. Admittedly 2009 wasn’t going to be good but Buell sales were down less than the industry as a whole and Buell had product in the pipeline that looked likely to increase their market share. Closing Buell and taking $125 million in charges doesn’t seem to make financial sense. What is particularly strange is that Harley CEO Wandell has openly admitted that they did NO financial analysis to even see if closing Buell was fiscally justified. This would seem to be a breach of fiduciary responsibility as well GAAP. I get the strong feeling there is a more going on here than we are being told.
markp says
Another facet of this that I find interesting is the fate of Erik Buell.
It seems that he will remain at HD, so any spun-off Buell would,
presumably, be without out him, which would defeat the purpose.
I don’t know the terms under which he remains at HD, so I am not
sure if he has contractual (golden) cuffs on, though I suspect so.
This alone gives some credence to a corporate restructure with
a “new and better” Buell arising from the ashes in a while.
Maybe…
Jon says
I mostly agree with Jensen’s insightful post — that said I think there is a slim chance Buell could be handed off and possibly succeed.
The only way I can imagine this happening is if H-D were to sell the name, model names, and perhaps model designs to another company — with no agreement for production or distribution.
The only established brand I can see buying Buell that might succeed is Victory. They don’t operate in the sportbike realm and they do fulfill the ‘American-made’ mantra that has played a role in Buell’s semi-success. Victory also has an established distribution network, albeit smaller than H-D.
Another possibility would be for a foreign company looking to enter the US market — such as Hyosung, Lifan (most likely Chinese or Korean). There are several brands that would like to come to sell bikes in the US and none of them are as well recognized as Buell. They would have to set up their own distribution and it would be a total betrayal to Buell’s American image.
Hank says
Great article!
Given that Buell grew about 55% in the last year and Harley-Davidson grew 9% it doesn’t seem like the economy was the reason behind Harley-Davidson’s decision.
In addition . . be mindful that shortly (one financial reporting period) that Harley-Davidson announced big plans for the new Buell World Headquarters Complex in East Troy, WI.
Buell, particularly after reading Erik Buell’s article in a recent issue of FORBES magazine, deserves to have it’s chance to survice or fail on it’s own.
Curtis says
Excellent Article. I never believed the excuse ” to integrated to sell.” Anyone who’s owned a Buell motorcycle or learned much about Buell can attest, HD has always kept Buell an arms length away. And I don’t think that the folks at Buell minded all that much. Every year there were less and less HD-based parts on the motorcycles. I doubt there is a single common part shared between the 1125models and any Harley motorcycle. And from everything I’ve heard from people that have worked with Buell, the companies and business cultures were as different as the motorcycles.
Something just doesn’t seem right, not right at all.
Bill Kilgallon says
I can’t decide if I am more outraged as a HOG stockholder, or as a Buell owner. This article hit the nail on the head… Harley exists because not only the US Government, but AMF Corporate, gave them a chance to pursue a dream and a tradition.
Now HOG, out of what is likely a personal vendetta and internal politics, is ready to deny Buell the opportunity to continue under any circumstances. Harley is not only unwilling to let Buell have a chance, they are spending a fortune in money they don’t have to make sure Buell stays dead.
I sold my stock on the 15th, as soon as I heard the announcement. How do the rest of you feel about Harley borrowing money at 15% interest and spending it to make sure nobody can buy Buell?
Outrageous at every level. And unless things change quickly, Harley will NEVER be forgiven. American institution or not, they can rot as far as I am concerned, they sold their soul for personal vindictiveness.
Scott says
Great article! Thanks for saying what needed to be said!
I look at it this way: If you’re riding down the highway and you see another rider stranded at the side of the road and you have a tool-kit in your saddle-bag . . . you’re perfectly within your rights to just ride right by.
. . . just like Harley is within their rights to shut down Buell and not allow them to ever make bikes again, even on their own dime.
I’ve met some people who work at Buell and they’re the sort of people who would stop every time. Harley needs to think about what kind of company they want to be.
Harley isn’t just a corporation. They make motorcycles. As we all know, there’s something special about motorcycles. They have a soul. A company that makes them needs to have a soul as well.
If the Board at Harley doesn’t recognize that, the Harley brand may be in more trouble than they have ever been in their 100+ years.
John says
Kneeslider Paul,I was not refering to your post when I mentioned “haters” but was anticipating what usually comes in a Harley article here.An example though mild was Mike T refering to “posers”,what’s he know about me?I’ve seen more of what I would call posers riding jap cruizers that are supposed to look like Harleys wearing Harley patches etc.As far as who has made sensible posts,Jensens was the one that made the most sense to me.
matt g says
Nice post Jensen. Buell wasa net opportunity cost to HD. It’s off brand, takes up dealership showrooms and corporate marketing and HR assets. It was too weird to make it with Joe Public. Spinning it off would not solve any of those problems. Neat bikes I guess but for the money I’d buy a Ducati which is way sexier.
The Triumph analogy is flawed because Buell and HD don’t fundamentally mix.
You can’t simultaniously be enraged by corporate bailouts and corporate officiers trying to save their companies. You have to assume they are making the best decisions they can with the information they have.
If Buell bikes have any merit they will come back.
Jason says
I think the Harley Board recognizes their in real trouble from the long term perspective. When you look at their customer demographics and the “my.bike” perspective where people want a customized branded experience for themselves from their bike company. This is the reason for allllll the chopper shops. I was brought up riding Honda’s, and my first V-twin cruiser was a VTX, I never even thought of buying a Harley. Kids today don’t buy Harley’s and have no aspiration to. They riding KTM’s and are buying cruisers that have real performance, hence the reason for the metric cruiser market and Victory. Harley has some real challenges in the long run. The fact that their closing Buell and not selling, only makes it worse for them. They just lost a potential link to a younger demographic that might show some future brand loyalty and progress to buy a pure Harley cruiser.
MK79 says
Jensen – your points make sense but are also defeatist. What IF investment money wasn’t the problem? What IF the only thing in the way was Harley’s stubbornness? These questions could be answered quickly if only HD would put BMC up for sale.
I’m biased as I own a Buell, but I know this – if BMC were free to release their new Barracuda model, I would be one of the first in line to buy it.
Eric says
The whole thing is a little fishy. I am not convinced that was not a personal vendetta. If Harley is grasping for money and someone is offering it (which I believe they are), why wouldn’t they take the cash? Buells are finally on the the cusp of mainstream sportbike acceptance, and I believe poised for domination on the world stage.
So what, the XBs have Harley lumps in! If that’s a deal breaker, let Harley keep ’em and move on with the Rotax.
Bjorn says
It seems odd to me that at time when HD are struggling to keep their corporate heads above water, they would take a $125m hit just to close Buell.
If HD elected to sell Buell, they could name their terms and see if there was a buyer. The factory could be sold as a going concern along with a contract to purchase Sportster engines for the XB range, a nice little earner in tough times. Even with no distribution network, existing warranties to be honored and the neccessity to negociate new deals with suppliers, the potential buyers could make a decision whether it was worth it to them to have what was on offer. Motorcycling is filled with people who are fired by passion rather than just a desire for bottom line success. Even in times like this there is money to be found for projects, just not as much as in boom years.
Surely some return would be preferable than spending money to shut it down. However, if HD are retaining the services of Erik Buell and the Buell patents it may be they are keen to use his innovations in future HD offerings or just trying to keep any American made motorcycle competition to a minimum.
Scott says
Why debate if a stand-alone Buell would be profitable or not? That’s Erik Buell’s problem. Even if a stand-alone Buell stood a snow-ball’s chance of surviving, how would it hurt Harley to do the right thing and turn over the rights?
Some of you are arguing that the rights are useless without Harley’s backing. Fair enough. Since Harley says they won’t back them anymore, no-one would be hurt if they turned the rights over and let Erik Buell take a shot.
tim ivanoff says
can’t figure out the reasons for the shutdown without sale for an organization who’s product just captured a pro championship. it seems that the publicity value of that championship(no matter what circumstances) would enhance the sales value of said organization. Just business? Personal vendetta? Poor business decision? i know that investors are available to keep Buell alive, either under license to H-D or as a sale of all of Buell.
Hugh says
Paul- thanks very much for eloquently stating what many of us have been thinking for the last month.
What if AMF had said ~30 years “we’re closing Harley down- they’re not part of our core business”? HD needs to think about that.
Make Buell available. If no investors come forth- fine- at least Buell would have been given a chance.
SoCal Buell Riders says
Let me add my voice to the chorus.
If H-D (ptui!) wants to wash their hands of Buell, fine- let them. But sell the company and allow it to continue as an independent entity, rather than squashing it. Is H-D (ptui! again) afraid of Buell?
The Barracuda would certainly have an instant market. I, for one would drop a lot of hard-earned cash to upgrade (or add to) the Buell 1125R that I ride and love.
SoCal Buell Riders says
… and by the way
FREE ERIK BUELL!
steve w says
and after all the money everyone is talking about, it brings back to light the past MoCo presidents and others that left with large amounts of cash and stock options that make the Buell ordeal look small. Maybe HD is another company that during good times let those at the top rob the coffers ( how much does a CEO really deserve) only to have not left the proper operating capital for a tough time economy like we have now. Why is it that companies make billions in good times but 6 months into a tough time they are on the brink of failure. Companies like HD haven’t spent all the money on upgrades because not much really happens year in and year out camparied to some others. Who will really ever know about this. It will surface in years to come as to the real facts. For now it is a question for discussion.
Matt says
This article is spot on! HD needs to do the right thing and let Buell swim on it’s own. It’s great that these questions are finally being asked. BFFB
XB12R Rider says
Excellent read. You hit the nail on the head with “…stand up and let Buell go”. It needs to be said, louder and more often. It’s time to let the red headed step child out of the chromatorium show rooms where sales people didn’t give a rats ass and service departments couldn’t find their own.
And I want a Barracuda II too!
Mark N
neil says
i just hope what ever happens, happens quick although that is highly unlikely. those high level corporate decisions take time yaknow.
Brad says
The Buell Name was to badly trashed by the 1125 failure and poor reliability. It would have taken 8 years to rebuild the brand.
They need to freshen up the bikes and sale them as Harley’s and start fresh like Triumph did and moved to a full line of bikes successfully so I might add.
Mark Gainer aka Wolfridgerider says
Just give Erik the chance to stand on his own. What is H-D afraid of…. are they afraid Buell will be successful and make them look like fools for letting it go? I got news for ya, you can’t look much worse in my eyes.
FREE ERIK BUELL
BFFB
Paint Shaker says
Win a Championship, can the whole dang company? Something isn’t right there… Can’t sell them because they are “too intergrated?” Please, The engine is the only thing H-D about a Buell. EVERYTHING else (sales, service, parts, etc) can be done by someone else without affecting harley… Buell could still purchase motors from harley for the XB series (kinda like they did back in the early days)… or maybe they can just retire the current XB motor and move forward with the Rotax or their own design… harley, who was bought back from AMF, paided a HUGE amount of $$ and canned nearly 200 people to close down Buell. Why won’t harley let Buell have the chance to sink or swim?
Something isn’t right…
Something is fishy about the whole deal… It will come out soon enough.
hoyt says
Paul – excellent job. Your effort combined with many others just might make a historic impact.
All the MBAs in the world can’t quantify the negative impact this kill-Buell decision is having on HD.
A story for the ages…
Ted M says
I just don’t buy the excuse Buell in too integrated to sell.. Since all that HD makes for Buell is a motor for the XB line…
The 1125r and 1125cr have no Harley products on them…
WHAT! has HD gained since closing buell NOTHING!
*the stock didn’t change, smoke and mirrors until next quarter
*they lost millions
*They have pissed off tens of thousands of motorcycle enthusiasts..
*You have made Buell and Erik martyrs
They slit the underdogs throat for sport not reason.
This just doesn’t pass the sniffer…
If anything Buell showed how efficient
Scott Digital says
In terms os business:
1. If Harley sells Buell all the very unique and innovative patents would be sold with the company. Buell has MANY MANY innovative designs and engineering feats. Why would Harley give up all that Intellectual property? It just does not make sense.
2. Buell no longer uses Harley motors, which means they are only an assembler of motorcycles. #1 cost on a motorcycle is the engine and trans. The margin’s that Harley makes on Buell after buying a Rotax motor from another company have to be considerably less then in the past.
My personal thoughts: Buell motorcycles have always been a niche market. With the Harley motor, the bike barley moved. (Yes I have been on the racetrack with a Buell, it was not my cup o tea) With the Rotax, they because a serious contender, but lost the unique look.
How to move forward?: Start a better American motorcycle company. Stop looking at the past and look to the future.
smithmotorwheel says
Let me start by saying I don’t hate HD at all. I own one. I had hoped to own a NEW Buell one day. I guess that HD’s disposal of Buell is at least appropriate since they’ve been the ‘red-headed step-child’ of Harley for years.
Let’s face it, Erik Buell took a knife to a gunfight when he adapted a Sportster powerplant for use in his bikes. Under those circumstances he did VERY well. There IS value in the Buell motorcycle company still and I’m VERY impressed with their ‘low’ sales volume considering their sometimes bad reputation (deserved or not) and their horrid dealership environment. I would call that a cult status. Can’t they see that?
I realize it’s a done deal, but why shutter the entire operation? Couldn’t they have reduced the number of Buell models to two or three and at least kept the brand alive? Or if not, according to the Kneeslider, Walworth County officials seem pretty serious about arranging a purchase of whatever is left.
There is always a way.
Ken Neoh says
Finally, a well written and reasoned article. I hope HD finds the courage to make a follow-on decision and not thwart this spirit of creativity, out-of-the-box thinking and non-conforming individuality that will be the strength that we, as a nation, will rely on to remain strong in the years to come.
Ron says
I dumped the few shares of HOG that I had and bought new parts for my Buell with the money.
If HD wants to play dirty and destroy the ONLY reason I ever go into one of their dealerships, then fine, I’m taking my money and leaving.
I’ll always be proud to ride my Buell. I know that I’m riding on one man’s American Dream.
Andy N. says
Seems to me that the decision to sell MV makes a lot more sense than the decision to buy them ever did. However, the decision to shut down Buell makes absolutely no sense. BMC was proving a consistent increase of significant growth, although small by lage manufacturer standards. I think the numbers I’ve seen equate to >50% growth in the last five years…Hardly a company that should be considered for disposal!
Rumor has it that the 2011 model line-up for Buell was firmly set to have new offerings that would expand upon the market share, as well as introduce greater competition in both AMA Superbike and WSB. We may never know how the rest of Erik Buell’s “200-year plan” was to play out, but I sure hope that is not the case.
America needs innovation and motivation like what Buell brought to the table. What we don’t need are companies that churn out the same bikes year after year, with the greatest focus being on apparel and chrome-bathed accessories.
How can HD say, in the same breath, that they want to focus on their core business and expand to younger markets? I don’t know of many young people with a deep-rooted desire to ride a bagger.
Shame on you, Harley-Davidson. At least make Buell available for purchase, even if you must do it on the condition that components tightly tied to HD (distribution network, etc.) are not part of the sale. Buyers will without question be knocking at the door.
Why did you REALLY shut down Buell? Seems that the truth has yet to be made public…
Dave Gess says
Jensen, are you saying that since you don’t think anyone would buy it H-D should not offer to sell it? Do you see folks lining up to buy MV? I don’t.
No one may be interested but one could say, we will make an effort for three months to well this and if no one bites than shut it down. Committing 125 million to shutting it down when, in the worst year in MC sales history Buell lost 29 million seem silly. Heck you could give someone half that to take it off your hands and accept all the liability for it and you would save money.
Kevin Anderson says
Thank you, Paul, for writing this piece.
Keep shining the harsh light on these execs at H-D.
As a publicly traded company, they can’t dodge these questions forever!
RPM4x4 says
Buell sales were up 56% in the last five years. That does not sound like failure to me. Thats some real growth, in a recession no less. What other vehicle manufacture can boast numbers like that? This was not about money but something much more sinister down at HD headquarters. Buells future looked even brighter with their new 2011 lineup. The Barracuda II looked to be an amazing motorcycle. If somehow Buell can get up and running again, I will have a third Buell in the stable.
Beavis says
Here’s the bottom line as far as I’m concerned. This was pure knee jerk reaction. The stock drops and investors want answers. The biggest draw on HD Inc is not Buell by a long shot (a little research will uncover what that is – think credit crisis). A press release saying it’s being investigated and/or restructured doesn’t do enough to grab attention. Shutting down a subsidiary grabs attention as evidenced by what happened to the stock price that day. This decision has minimal efffect on HDI’s bottom line and when earnings in the fourth and first quarter aren’t any better the stock price will fall again. But short term, things look better and Wall Street loved it. For a while.
Tony says
Excellent article!
At the very least, HD owes HOG investors an explanation for burying a saleable asset. We are not buying, ‘too integrated to sell.’
RPM4x4 says
“too integrated to sell”
…for a few million dollars I could figure out how to overcome this problem.
stacius says
Many salient points have been made here. I only have this to add:
I’ve read elsewhere that Warren Buffet made a 600 million dollar investment in HD. Here’s a man who isn’t afraid to invest in his country. He’s made billions doing so…even in bad times. Boom and bust cycles come and go in almost every industry. A smart company looks to people with drive and vision in order to plan for the future. Every American believes tomorrow can be better than today…and better the day after that!
Even with the shutdown, Harley still has to offer parts, provide maintenance and honor warranties. Buells will be a going concern for them for the foreseeable future, regardless of shutting down production.
Even with a ‘renewed focus on their core brands’, some sort of change is going to come. As many have pointed out, HD is going have to find a way to attract younger customers. Environmental concerns means further changes. They will not be able to make the same engines 50 years from now–I don’t see how that is possible.
I can see hanging on to IP in the face of that, but really, what does that mean for them product-wise? Most riders I know personally do not feel HD’s bikes merit consideration, due to their price/performance…and that’s valid. Everyone votes with their dollars.
I’ve read the various complaints about the 1125r. One poster called the bike ‘a failure’. How many of you have actually ridden the bike? I’ve had mine for three weeks, I commute on it and I love it! Most of my friends who’ve seen it up close think it’s pretty awesome…and it goes like gangbusters.
NO BIKE is perfect. Some of us don’t need super cutting edge performance and this was evidenced by calls for new “all purpose” bikes like those UJM’s that were made in the 70’s.
There seems to be a sort of cognitive dissonance over Buell. Some folks feel the bikes were ‘ugly’ and a failure…yet, most seem to agree Buell had something to offer. Otherwise, why all the outrage?
If there was only one way of doing things, they’d be only one manufacturer of motorcycles…there would be only one type of bike!
Buell’s performance as a company (i.e. bikes sold) seems to be on par with the industry as a whole. AND I posit Buell had a very bright future ahead of it (look at the reactions to the prototype bike). Based on those things (and not having any insider insight into the company’s decision-making process) I can only conclude like others, that something indeed is rotten in Denmark.
Carlos says
I think the real puzzle is taking a financial hit to close down Buell now at the worst possible time. If Buell lost 1/5th what it will cost to close it down, why do it now when cash flow is so critical. It seems to me two truths have found each other here. Much has been made of personal agendas or at least personal differences between Buell and HD. Add that to the pressure the BOD of HD must have been feeling to “do something” in the shadow of falling stock prices, bonded this blundering path together. A path that bonded quicker than rational minds and cold hard data could prevent.
Two blunders by the BOD of HD are evident without need of first hand accounts. First, closing Buell cost HD more this year than leaving it open. Yes, the possibility of future losses is still there, but not this year. Second, not offering an asset for sale that will not be used in a time when cash flow is a life line. Even if they offered Buell for sale for $1, and allowed a future owner access to dealers and motors for a period of time, but financial burden of capitol, expenditures and marketing removed, would have put Harley $124,999,999 better off than it is now.
Sheer panic is the only explanation and should be investigated further. Even if it was just a poor decision without personal vendettas, investors deserve answers and a corrected path.
I am a Buell owner. I purchased my only “new” motorcycle, a Ulysses, from an HD dealership. I do not usually buy new vehicles, cars or bikes. But after owning an M2 I purchased used, I became attached to its character. At the time the Ulysses came out I was eye-balling a Triumph Tiger and the combination of my M2 and the Tiger made the Uly too much for me to pass on. That bike is over four years old now and has nearly 48,000 miles. It has been the best bike I have owned. I think in the Ulysses, the old air cooled HD motor and the advanced Buell chassis worked well together. The Ulysses is more sport tourer than sport bike, so the limited to today’s standard 80rwhp is not so much of an issue. Add to the pot that the old lump is very fuel efficient and easy to maintain, makes the engine ideal for a budget minded motorcycle wonderer.
I can say without a doubt, that HD now offers nothing I am interested in buying. I have tested my fair share of HDs, from the Sportster to the Electra Glide and none really hit the home run needed for me to purchase new. My next “new” bike will be something else more in the lines of a Triumph or BMW. So chaulk me up to another missed opportunity.
Jason says
H-D may not have done anything illegal, but their explanations do not make sense. The argument that the two companies are too intertwined is a red herring. Many other spin-offs had far greater integration issues. The shareholders of H-D deserve to know what really happened
Davidw says
Where are there photos of the Barracuda II test bike?
Jason says
The fact that Warren Buffet put 600 million dollar investment in HD is somewhat flawed if you base it on parts and service dollars in the long term. The question is how long is long term? Of the 30 guys i know with bikes ages 43 to 30, non of them own Harley’s and non of them plan on it. Most recently Boomers have been driving Harley sales, and in case you haven’ t heard Boomers just took a couple big ones on the chin with the financialapocolypse. So unless Harley starts to make inroads into the younger demographics (Buell was one pathway), they’re in trouble in the long term. Closing Buell is a major long term loss for Harley.
George Millwood says
Harley don’t seem content to divest themselves of Buell, they seem to want to kill it off. I can’t believe they ever understood the business and now with sales nosediving do they really understand their own neck of the woods.
Tin Man 2 says
Jason, If you know 30 riders and none of them ride Harleys, I have to ask where do you live? Here in the USA Harley outsells all the competition combined in bikes over 750cc. Last Sunday I drove past a local HD dealer and saw maybe 200 people hanging out eating free Hot Dogs and Chips, One mile away the Metric dealer was closed, With ZERO people there. It seems the Metrics have a lot to learn about marketing, Its not enough to just sell a bike, The dealer that helps provide something to DO with the bike wins long term customers. To sell a bike that gets put away in a year do to loss of interest, results in poor resale value and is only a passing fad.
Jim says
Jensen Beeler covered most everything I planned to say and I’d suggest everyone read his comment carefully. But one assumption that we as observers can’t make, is that HD’s board didn’t consider selling Buell and after reviewing the prospects decided it couldn’t be done.
A commenter mentioned that Buell’s US sales are similar to BMW’s. True but BMW’s world wide sales are about 100,000 units while Buell’s are probably 20,000-25,000. But the big difference is that BMW Motorrad lives off the supply and distribution chain of the automobile group and BMW AG’s credit arm, the same as Buell relied on HD.
Mark: Thanks for bringing up John Bloor and the resurrection of Triumph. When Bloor purchased the Triumph brand all he received was the reputation and memory of the company that was gone, a powerful value. But if IRRC Bloor and his partners invested 70 million British Pounds bringing the new Triumph to market. Today, in US dollars that would be over $700 million. The cost to set up Buell as an independent would probably be less than that but still more than the $125M that HD is writing off.
Dave Gess: The fact there is no one lining up to buy MV Agusta should trouble anyone who admires that brand and who would like to see it prosper. There is a real danger that for the buyer it could be a vanity purchase.
OurDee says
hmmm, …… , thinking here. Who had something personal against Buell? I’m way off on a tangent. But it is the only explanation that I’ve been able to accept. Sounds like someone with an axe to grind displaced fact with fiction when they had some higher-ups at HD’s ear.
Next product beyond 80% finished and years in development. Preceding product beyond being competitive. Is Buell only shut down till MV sells? Just makes me madder than a wet hen. Thank you all, rant off.
Now my question is; Why hasn’t any other main stream media looked into the strange story Harley broke to explain the closing of Buell?
Frank Skinner says
Paul, a very nice and well written article, thank you.
Mr. Beeler, I think you have some great points. I think you highlighted the situation HD is facing now very thoroughly. You obviously have a good business mind. It does seem to me that HD is just managing stock prices at the moment and maybe that is exactly what they need to do to survive. I do not know.
You made some great points on how difficult it is for any company to start making motorcycles, selling them, servicing them and getting customers. I would say all these are correct except the last one. I am not sure what problems you are talking about and maybe I am reading it wrong but I have a lot of miles on the XB platform with no problems. However if Buell was to rise again I am well aware that maybe my XBs would not be serviced at a Buell dealer.
“Any purchaser of Buell Motorcycles would face the following problems with their purchase:
– No functioning supply/support-chain (Buell piggybacks off the suppliers and carriers for Harley-Davidson, as well as HD’s distribution points)
– No way to finance purchases (Buell is financed under HD, Inc’s credit arm)
– No points of sale (Buell’s are sold inside HD dealers)
– Problems with the XB line, which uses an HD power plant and common parts binâ€
There is no doubt that if HD sold Buell there would be many challenges, the easiest of which would be finding investors. Buell history has been a series of pivotal moments in engineering and innovation that concluded with an AMA championship. Those types of awards do not go unnoticed.
Erik Buell has been here before and I have total confidence in his abilities as an engineer and salesman. IF Buell was sold, IF investors could be found, and the most important part of the equation is IF Erik Buell still wanted to build motorcycles then there is a chance. HD did many things for Buell to include a dealer network, financing, parts, advertising, producing manuals, training technicians etc. This, in my mind, is the real challenge and I think you are saying that as well. I think it can be done, done well, and done better than we have seen in the past.
Many things a company does day to day does not directly relate to constructing a motorcycle but it would have to be a good portion of the business and would cause the tiny Buell Motorcycle Company to grow to more than twice its size when HD killed them.
I firmly believe that while these are large task, they are manageable. I do believe that Buell would be a viable company and would continue to grow making world class motorcycles.
“You cannot remove Buell from Harley-Davidson, Inc. and have a meaningful company be the result. Buell the company is too intertwined and too dependent on its parent company for its business survival. End of story.â€
I think this is just the beginning but time will tell although I think that is a very powerful statement and what HD would want us to believe; I am hoping it will be proved wrong.
While Buell riders love the motorcycles they currently ride even Erik Buell may not be able to build the same type of motorcycle that we know as a Buell. This is a very real possibility but it has been done in the past so it is not without precedence. I am just an average Buell owner having owned a Buell since 1997. Buell owners are a great bunch of people and have an advantage, at the moment, of being a small segment of the motorcycle population. I really enjoy that I ride a motorcycle that are not seen in the hundreds every day, I am betting other Buell riders like this as well. I am hoping that the fine people at Buell, that built a World Class Motorcycle for 26 years, are able to find employment and hopefully one day they are able to find themselves working for Erik Buell again.
HD has more problems than worrying about BMC and since this event was announced on another site 1 month before HD made it public I would say HD has a lot of internal problems concerning security, among other things, which I am sure are occupying their day to day meetings.
I would ride anything from a moped to an Electra glide no matter who made it and would have fun with it. Having been a Harley owner since the AMF days I no longer fit into that image, but Buell made motorcycles fun for me again. I am loyal to people, and one of those people is Erik Buell and many other people that have worked at Buell that I have met over the years. They are responsive, concerned with their customers and a great group of “Free Thinkers.â€
Mr. Beeler and Paul, thank you both for your insightful post and I would like to invite you both to join the people of BMC and some Buell riders from all over the world to take part in the annual Buell Homecoming in June of 2010 that will be one of the best motorcycle events you will ever attend, I promise.
Frank
Buell Rider
Vicente says
A whistful guess says they may have not sold it in order to restart Buell once the economy thrives up again
Doug S says
It is not that HD cannot sell Buell due to lack of a buyer. Example: one passionate group is ready to negotiate.
[Jensen & other “numbers/business types” – don’t underestimate the value of determination in business. Without determination, you don’t have any numbers to count].
HD cannot sell Buell because maybe HD doesn’t want to sell Buell. Hopefully, HD knows the long-term future is in efficient, modern engines. Sadly, the air-cooled Big Twin will eventually become a novelty sale like you see with pre-War engines as it becomes increasingly difficult to make the air-cooled engine work. The Helicon motor can power 2-3 models fairly quickly on the market.
The 1st comment from Eric in this post is true: http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/10/06/harley-davidson-and-the-25-–-40-year-old-buyer/
If this is HD’s direction, they sure are making it hard on themselves & losing thousands of potential customers in the process. And, if this is HD’s intent, they still need to address the dealership attitude & dealership model as it relates to performance bikes. Get creative and let the Barracuda stand alongside a KTM, Ducati, or anything from Asia on a showroom floor. That is being competitive.
kneeslider says
I must add a few words in response to some of the comments here.
A few of you want to discover a conspiracy or personal vendetta of some sort behind the decision to close Buell. I think that’s nonsense. I believe the decision was a business call on the part of the HD board, pure and simple, in their efforts to save Harley Davidson.
But business decisions are never a sterile, numbers only process, if they were, we could replace all company management with a computer or two. Business decisions are informed and influenced by what we know, our experience, our personal preferences, our personalities and sometimes just a gut feeling that something will or will not work. Numbers can even be used to back up a decision already gaining traction or even, already decided. It can be hard for others to discover, which came first, sometimes even those making the decisions aren’t sure.
The current HD management, influenced as it is, by a rough business climate, a company in trouble and the need to make decisions quickly, probably did what it thought best by doing what it knows how to do, cut expenses everywhere, close anything not part of the core of Harley Davidson and hope for the best.
It’s far easier and faster to close Buell than it would be to sell it, but here is where the personal preferences, experience and personalities of the decision makers come into play. The effort allocated to saving Buell must compete with all of the other priorities before the board, some are placed lower on the list and lose out. Selling Buell would take no small effort and if Buell does not have sufficient support when decisions are made, if saving or selling Buell isn’t among the highest priorities, they close. That doesn’t mean a sale could not work, it just means, from among the possible actions they could take, they decided not to pursue this one.
If there are any investors willing to step forward, they should immediately make their intentions very clear. Without them, no sale is possible and the outpouring of support for a move in this direction isn’t going to accomplish anything. It would have been far better, in my opinion, if HD had put Buell up for sale to begin with so investors could have had a chance to make offers before writing them off, but you can only move forward. Either investors speak up and HD listens or it’s over and done.
Phoebe says
One thing I don’t get is when people talk about Buell’s intellectual property and patents that HD would want to hang onto. Ok, I can understand HD wanting to keep Buell’s engine tuning tweaks, because Erik’s team clearly was able to do what HD couldn’t (or didn’t want to) do with these engines. But other things like fuel-in-frame, oil-in-swingarm…really? Like we’d ever see such things in a HD bike.
James says
You know it would be nice if Harley Davidson put out a little more information, but I would imagine that a Buell by any other ownership would become an very overpriced machine, after all they would suddenly have to pay much closer to retail price on every part that was not made in shop and that alone could kill the hopes of a viable product. Even after that you gotta ask would Erick Buell stay on? Harley and Buell have stated that they keep each other at an arms length as much as possible, to prevent Buell’s from taking on a Harley type of felling, basically to keep Buells a Buell product from Erick Buells mind, would that continue? Or would he become a little lap dog? Would he even want his name on a Honda R1 replica? That could be the magic bullet that killed Buell, or it could the cost in total maybe it would have costed much more to sell it, otherwise it may be something that no one could guess? But a vendetta? or some fishy conspiracy? Not only is that ridiculous as thekneeslider pointed out, but dont’cha think that’s more that a little bit disrespectful of the folks who lost there jobs from all of this?
James says
Oh and Phoebe a lot of Buell’s and Harley’s patents where combined so selling the rights to them would leave Harley dead in the water, and charging a fee might become to expensive, come to think of it that alone could be more than a few nails in the coffin if you will. as for fuel in frame or oil in swingarm? Who knows. I don’t, won’t sit around pretending that I do ether.
RickA says
I believe Buell had always put out great motorcycles. The S1 was the first bike that I absolutely had to have…and I still own it to this day. The difference is that Buell was apparently going to have a bike with mass appeal that could run toe to toe with other liter bikes. The looks and spec sheet of the 1125 turned off many buyers. These days 150 BHP doesn’t cut it to the spec sheet racers. Never mind that most track tests put them on top, or that they were heralded as one of the easiest bikes to ride fast around a track.
It baffles me that H-D cans them just before their ultimate goal came to fruition. They are shut down with the dream on the horizon. It leads me to believe it was more of a personal than business decision. While they weren’t putting up impressive numbers by any means, they were continuing to grow and profit, and their biggest achievement was about to come to fruition.
David/cigarrz says
I am amazed at the comments here over the last month on this subject, what? No area 51? No government conspiracy? No grassy knoll? UFO’s? Or just not yet? Let me get this straight. Eric Buell is being held prisoner in the bowels of an inept, all powerful, evil American corporation that stays all powerful by enslaving third world children to make T shirts and mesmerizing millions of unsuspecting simpletons with a mysterious shiny metal so they wont buy the secret barracuda motorcycle that was so close to revolutionizing motorcycling as we know it and probably would have solved global warming and the energy crisis if it would only have been allowed the light of day. Then the evil motor company sent out a secret agent, Jensen Beeler a member of the secret society of the MBA brotherhood (you know he cant be trusted) to disseminate lies and obfuscations that can only be thought up in boardrooms of evil corporations just so they don’t have to sell have the secret Buell barracuda to the thousands of venture capitalist lined up to buy the rights to Buell. WOW! Paul Crowe thank you for trying to keep this conversation on track and civil. As a stockholder I was concerned when MV was purchased and also when Harley decided to be in the questionable credit banking business. Whatever may have come of MV we will never know because the banking house of cards has fallen down and MV and Buell were killed in the crash. I am not happy about Buell and can only hope that a Harley branded sportbike is in the future with Eric Buell involved. I wonder how many of the Monday morning quarterbacks on here are in the midst of their own financial storm while they opine on evil corporate business.
James says
Oh but David/cigarrz you have it all wrong! the conspiracy theory’s start one week from the day after tomorrow and those are the one’s you need to worry about! yes thank you! and thank everyone with there insightful posts just no thank you to the folks who think little green men are behind this.
Jensen Beeler says
I’m going to try and Tarantino the responses to my comment since that makes the most sense in my mind.
David:
Yes. I’m and MBA. Fire comes out from my eye balls, and I eat small children. I also hold a law degree, and am single-handily responsible for every parking ticket, cell phone fee, and frivolous coffee law suit you’ve heard of. You’ve caught me.
Its easy to pigeon-hole people like that (Erik Buell I’m sure knows what I mean), but the irony is within these circles I’ve always been the one playing counter-point who didn’t quite fit in. Maybe I represent everything that’s wrong with American business, but as small business owner three-times over I’d like to think I’m more apart of the answer to “Big American Corporations” than apart of them.
Frank:
To clarify my point about the XB having a HD motor. The point I’m trying to make there is that a large portion of the model line-up is tied directly into Harley-Davidson. HD parts, HD supply chain, HD service. The 1125 series is a bit easier to excise from HD, but the XB series poses a problem in this regard. I wasn’t referring to problems with the XB’s actual functionality, reliability, etc. Hope that clears that up.
Jason and a couple others who talked about Warren Buffett’s investment in Harley-Davidson:
I actually had the unique opportunity to meet Warren Buffett right after his investment in HD. While our conversation centered mostly around MV Agusta, he said something that was interesting, and very indicative of the businessman’s perspective.
For him, investing in Harley-Davidson was a no-brainer. Loaning money $300M (not $600M as it was quoted before) at 15% is an investor’s dream, and HD isn’t a high-risk lendee. However, if they defaulted he would be equally (if not more so) happy because he would own a significant portion of the company, and could easily sell its parts for more than he invested. No where in his analysis of the deal did he state his reason for investing in the company was because he had faith in their business.
Dave Gess:
There are actually a few rumors that there’s interest with Italian investors to bring MV back to Italian soil, but that’s beside the point. The point I was trying to drive home in my comment was that there isn’t a company left to sell when you pull Buell out of HD. It’s a brand, a small factory, and that’s it. I realize there’s a lot of Buell enthusiasts reading this, but as far as brands go, the Buell name isn’t worth very much (when looking at it from an investment point-of-view). I’ll echo what Jim said about Triumph. Buell is not a quaint British brand with nearly a century of history under its belt. While it has struck a chord with some American motorcyclists, it does not have nearly the value (using the word a way a Brand Manager would) that Triumph has/does.
MK79:
Those are a lot “IF’s”. I think a lot of people would be surprised to see how many business decisions are decided with spreadsheets instead of vendettas. I prefer to keep my conjectures to the facts and not hypotheticals designed for my own pre-determined outcome. If Morgan-Stanley showed up a couple weeks ago with $200M, I’m more than confident HD would have taken the money. Even with all this outrage, I have yet to see a legitimate offer from a qualified buyer come to the surface. I think that says a lot.
Jon:
You’re absolutely right about Victory, Hyosung, etc. being good fits for a Buell acquisition, and in a good market, that’s where I’d go to make a sale happen. The problem though is that none of these companies right now have the free cash to buy Buell. They’re all struggling to keep their heads afloat, as is everyone else in the industry.
Paul, The Kneeslider:
Thanks for the welcome.
Mark:
I think I’ve already address all your points in the previous replies, but correct me if I’m wrong.
Cole: As I stated in the beginning, I breath fire, eat children, chew with my mouth open, and on the weekend enjoy wearing skinny jeans. I embody everything that is wrong with business, society, and what’s left of the American dream. I didn’t know three letters after my name (I actually have 5 letters behind my name) mutated me into some strange super-being of evil, go ahead and put me into your box of pre-concived notions, and nail me to the cross. I’m fine with that. But don’t do that, and then call me unimaginative. That’s just rude.
Honestly, I have a good sense of humor and I hope you do as well. This is supposed to be a place where people can have a discussion about motorcycles, and this article is the happy merger of the two things I like to talk about the most.
About the duty to stockholders. That’s a legal duty. There isn’t really any debate about whether it exists or not, or whether choices by a board member are influenced by it. You sort of touch on the issue of stock prices, shareholders, and long-term planning. I’d argue the best thing for shareholders is ALWAYS sustained long-term growth. Anyone making a distinction between what’s good for a company in the long-run, and trades that for a short-term stock price jump, is making poor business decisions. It’s sort of a logical concept, but it was reiterated in my MBA nonetheless.
The ironic part is, my argument is talking about what’s best for HD in the long-run. This is a company that’s faced with going under…again. This isn’t a move to make the stock price go up before the holidays, this is an action by a company that wants to continue for decades to come. This is what I mean by corporate triage. HD can lose Buell and MV, or they can lose the entire company all-together. Which would you choose? I’ll ignore your personal attack on this point.
As for Buell and MV being the same. I completely disagree. For starters, MV has only been a part of HD for about a year. They’re based in Virasse, Italy, are sold through independent dealers (usually dealers who specialize in Italian bikes), and have zero part compatibility with HD. For these reasons, MV Agusta, as a company, exists completely outside of HD in its relevant business aspects. The same cannot be said for Buell, as I outlined in my original comment. The debate here isn’t whether or not MV is a good purchase (I don’t know why HD bought them in the first place), but you can absolutely 100% sell MV Agusta in this climate.
The difference that I think you’re having trouble realizing is that while MV would benefit from being bought by another manufacturer, and the sale would make more sense, it isn’t necessary. Buell really has no option, in its current state, to exist in anything about another manufacturer, and none of them can make that purchase right now.
Ry_Trapp0 says
Take a look at Saturn(emm, the car company). They are basically the GM equivalent of Buell, with modest sales, a modest brand name, looked at as a rather quirky company, and have recently made great strides in the marketplace as far as getting an identity and becoming a legitimate player in the market. And now they’re dead.
I’m sure we all heard the news when Roger Penske announced that he would buy them. It wasn’t but a couple weeks ago though that he announced that the deal was off, simply because he couldn’t find a replacement for the GM sourced parts. Just like Buell, Saturn is dead because they were far too integrated into their parent company to be able to survive without them, or at least without a rather significant injection of cash.
I’m as big a Buell fan as any(an XB12 is the only bike I really want, and I WILL own one before I die!), but there is no conspiracy here, and the H-D company isn’t being ran by complete, utter morons like everyone seems to be implying. Would Buell ever have a chance as a stand alone company? Based on Roger Penske backing out of the Saturn deal, I would say that it’s a cold chance in hell. Should H-D offer them up for sale anyways? I guess one could argue that point, though it would take a Roger Penske(or equivalent) to buy the brand, not a small group of Buell owners with a modest cash offer. This is what I see anyways.
joe says
Why dosn’t Eric Buell start his own company making his own rolling chassis with a choice of engines, depending on what the customer prefers.Thats basicaly what he was doing under the Harley company,except he was restricted to using thier anciant Sporster engine.The Buell name was also restricted by the negative attitude of the dyed in the wool Harley Davidson sales people.They seemed to resent the fact that Buell took up thier time and floor space.
Rick_A says
Too integrated? It’s a tidy story…but hardly the case. Buell has their own facilities, vendor sources, and parts distribution. As has been mentioned, only the XB power plants were H-D sourced…and to be exact, they are H-D motors built to Buell specs. Much of the parts in that motor are proprietary to the Buell line. In the beginning H-D was fine with Buell being a separate entity and sourcing their engines. What’s the problem now? I’m sure there’s more at work. Thus far it’s all been theory and conjecture…despite what some ‘experts’ would like to believe. When an insider at Buell has something concrete to say, I’ll listen. The press releases coming out of H-D isn’t worth anymore than the expert opinions here.
They’ve held a lot of stuff back from Buell…kicking them off the VR1000 project after they got things started. They made what of it…the V-Rod? Canceling what was basically the 1125 project in the 90’s. Mysteriously and abruptly putting a stop to the motocross bike after much development , a dealer press introduction and internal memos to sales personnel. Seems like a trend there…and that’s likely not the half of it.
With the news of Erik Buell Racing I hope it’s the beginning of much more.
Harley has been doing a lot of weird stuff in the last couple years. I wait patiently to see what’s up their sleeves, though fully expecting more of the same.
Nicolas says
“they owe their jobs to the shareholders, who legally should be their first and foremost concern at all times” … any company’s management should look to the long term benefit and survival of this company, and not about the investors immediate return in dividends. This way of thinking is what has led the economy in the hole, speculating instead of investing. None of the great US industrial companies have been built, developped and prospered with a short term vision and the need for a maximum immediate return. But I’m going out of the subject here.
In the “shareholder” category should also be considered all the employees who worked to create, design, build, assemble, ship … all the people who made it happen. That’s industry that we’re talking about here, not banking or service, we’re talking about real products, sthg you can see, touch (even ride !), not figures and numbers on a spreadsheet. It takes another type of people to actually make real products, the “doers” as Paul is often referring in his posts. Why would the workers have less values than the numbers on the spreadsheet, why would they have less value than the so-called “investors” … ? no workers = no product = no benefit, whatever you want to invest in it. Unless you start gambling about “futures” and “derivatives” and other virtual stuff and eventually drag the economy in the hole, but once again I’m out of the subject here.
The arguments about the distribution/logistic structure are pure litterature, it wouldn’t take much to setup a decent logistic architecture with a few educated individuals and a network of logistics suppliers (which by the way are begging for work). Setting up a network of dealership could also be done, it’s not like there is a lack of empty commercial estate all around this country … There are plenty of investors who’d have the resources to work this out. The use of the Sportster engine ? Buell’s future was not with this engine anyways … We could argue back and forth about the arguments that comes for or against selling Buell instead of shutting it down, but at the end of the day what led to this decision was probably just a lack of vision, a lack of guts, a lack of long term commitment, a lack of humanism, a lack of imagination …
Cole says
Jensen –
your comments reflect unimaginative thoughts. Is that better for the 5 letters behind your name?
examples of lack of an imagination:
“….but you can absolutely 100% sell MV Agusta in this climate.”
HD hired a firm to sell MV Augusta.
HD has a group already wanting to negotiate to buy Buell. I wouldn’t call that 100% certainty for an MV sale in this climate.
However, I believe HD should not sell Buell because it could be a cost-effective part of their future in terms of engine platform development. If they let that go, they are really behind.
Unimaginative?
Original purchase price HD made for MV Augusta was about $108 Million. Compare that to your support of mothballing Buell which HD estimates will cost them about $125 Million.
Why not immediately re-brand Buell as HDs in a positive light (could have had Willie G and Erik B together for the announcement)? For the price of mothballing Buell, HD could almost hang onto both MV Augusta and Buell, with no PR damage! HD is spending more money to mothball one of their own products than they will get in the proceeds from losing another product line. “Triage at its finest hour” – ? Are you saying Buell is losing money at a higher rate than that while also ignoring long-term potential and the PR damage?
It will be interesting to see the sale price of Augusta less the commission paid to that firm against the initial HD purchase price…then compare that against the cost to mothball Buell instead of positively re-branding Buell as HD
which leads to…
“The ironic part is, my argument is talking about what’s best for HD in the long-run. ……. This is what I mean by corporate triage. HD can lose Buell and MV, or they can lose the entire company all-together.”
Thanks for the explanation of the latest corporate b.s. lingo. Ironically, it can be argued that HD’s long-term future is in a US-manufactured version of the Helicon engine, not in it’s core product line now.
Apparently, HD execs publicly admitted they did not do a financial evaluation of the Buell subsidiary so how can you make such a claim? Your assumption is that if they don’t lose Buell, they will go down the tubes. State your financial figures that suggest Buell has been such a financial drag.
By not selling Buell they can hang onto that long-term resource that is the Helicon, however, the PR damage with how they managed this announcement is large.
How many Buells have been sold over the last 26 years? Tens of thousands of those current riders could have easily moved onto an HD as they get into their mid-50s/60s (which is right around the corner, meaning immediate impact). Perfect timing, too, as the HD “core” retire from riding and purchasing. Now, those Buell riders will probably look to Victory. Continue your triage because your spreadsheet appears to have got in your way.
Trey says
I agree with the points in this article almost completely. What happened?
Some of the posted comments are pretty silly though. H-D doesn’t have a perfect record, they have an established record of cheating, stealing, begging, borrowing, and lying to keep the company going…
The ONLY reason they survived WW@ was because they lied to the Gov’t about production #’s, and buried Indian.
They told the Gov’t that it was unfair that Japan made a better motorcycle, for cheaper, and whined until the tariffs were set… They tried to bury the “Big 3″… Didn’t work though.
They were on the verge of bankrupcy when AMC bought them. AMC started the Evo engine project… Then Wiley G and his crew came in when AMC couldn’t keep H-D afloat (which IMHO looks almost designed – make the company fail, then buy it back for pennies on the dollar!)…
They then got the bright idea that if you market a “Bad Boy” image to doctor’s and Lawyers, you’d sell a lot more crappy, over priced, old tech motorcycles… There’s a lot of stupid yuppies…
H-D’s biggest changes from year to year are colours…
Buell took a crappy engine, wrapped it in a high tech, and VERY progressive chassis, and made a lot of people happy, put smiles on a bunch more, and got a smirk from the jackasses that couldn’t understand that America COULD build a sportbike. It’s just a shame it took so long to get a decent engine in the chassis!
And, for the record, I do not own a Buell, but I have a HUGE amount of respect for Mr. Buell. The man did what a lot of people have wanted to do since Indian – build fast American bikes!
Eric, I wish you well, but what you’re doing almost sounds like a slap in the face of your loyal customers – teaming up with the company that axed your dream…
Tin Man 2 says
Trey, Your post is the Poster Boy for Misinformed Harley Haters. Are you old enough to remember the Japanese Motorcycle Wars of the 70s/80s? Look it up!! Ever read the Harley and Indian wars by Allen Girdler,Look it up and maybe even read it before making uninformed statements! Tariffs were used to hold back the Government subsides DUMPING of Japanese bikes into our market. Your info is wrong on every point you made, this is one problem with the internet, It gives a voice to the Informed and the Ignorant as if they are equal. I hate to be this harsch but this is not opinion it is Fact, Do some research!!
Trey says
Hey gang, for the record, I don’t “hate” H-D, I just don’t approve of some of their attitude. They make a big deal about being an “Amercian” bike, yet half the bikes parts come from outside of the country. The Honda Goldwing is more “American” than any H-D made in the last 30 years.
I do appreciate the MARKETING H-D has done, they are masters of MARKETING.
I just wish their engineers and designers were as good as their marketing staff is…
Still sucks what they’re doing to Buell.
Trey says
Tin Man 2, I grew up with H-D riders, and BMW riders, and Trumo riders, as a matter of fact, most of my family and their friends didn’t ride anything Japanese until the mid to late 90’s… My opinions came from them.
You must be one of the rose coloured lenses wearing H-D owners… It’s okay, I don’t hold that against you, i’ll still wave at you…
I’ve done the research, and formed my opinion on it. I’ve been riding for more than 25 years. I have friends that ride everything from BMW’s, Trumps, H-D’s, and all things Japanese. I don’t care what you ride, as long as you ride…
I haven’t read those books, but I might check ’em out…
Everything I posted is FACT;
When the US Gov’t approached H-D and Indian about making bikes for the military, H-D told them they could build significantly more bikes than Indian. Indian lost the contract, H-D built a lot of bikes. Indian went away. FACT. I have grandparents that rode H-D’s and Indians during WW2.
Your statement verifies what I posted. The Japanese made a better product, cheaper, and H-D couldn’t compete. So, they asked the Gov’t to “tax” the bikes coming in. Remember, the tariff was for big bikes, which was what H-D made. FACT.
H-D was failing, AMF bought them and tried to run a company in an industry they didn’t understand. AMF bit off more than they could chew. But, AMF DID fund what would become the Evo engine. FACT.
Wiley G and the boys bought the company, at a huge loss to AMF, and had the brialliant plan to actually market to people who had money. I am not being sarcastic. The Motor Company is brialliant at marketing an IMAGE. They PROMOTE a BAD BOY IMAGE. They sells more than a billion dollars worth of motorcycle assecories every year – A BILLION DOLLARS! That’s t-shirts, and leather jackets, and stuffed pigs in leather jackets. They don’t sell that many bikes. Look it up.
The only “New” thing H-D has done in the last 10 years is the Revo engine, which was designed by Porsche. And they had to do this. They are marketing the Revo’s to me. I am a Gen X’er, who has a little money, and I want a bike with an engine that isn’t 30+ years old. I want a bike that will actually get out of it’s own way. I want a bike that not only looks good, and actually handles well. Truth be told, the Revo is the ONLY bike from H-D i’d ride (other than a Buell). Don’t get me wrong, I have a soft spot for knucks, mostly ’cause I like the looks of the engine…FACT.
Okay, so where are we? Oh yes, Eric Buell…
I love the Buell’s, they are comfy, look different, and are VERY ahead of the curve with respect to technical design. Gas is chassis (great idea, more room for an airbox), oil in swingarm (two uses, one part!), low slung exhaust (keep center of gravity lower, improves handling), perimeter brakes (well, that just works), etc. H-D didn’t come up with this shit, Buell did. The Buell’s have had hot rod H-D engines for years, now they had an engine worthy of the chassis! FACT.
Buell’s are, and were American sportbikes, designed by americans, built by americans, for american roads, and riders – oh, and they are a bargain! No one else has been able to do this for at least 50 years. FACT.
What H-D is doing to Buell is just wrong. Buell is a viable brand, a respected brand, the ONLY American sportbike, and they just crapped on Eric, and it’s loyal customers. That’s typical of H-D, and sad for Buell.
Thanks for the compliment, you’re right, the internet does give the Informed and the ignorant a voice – and thankfully YOUR IGNORANT VOICE can be fixed, my INFORMED VOICE is fine… So, quit being a jerk, and check your facts before you try and spew your crap up here…
Tin Man 2 says
Trey, You just keep digging yourself in deeper, The Gold Wing has not been built in this country for 2 Yrs. Look it up! —– Not that it really matters, but the HD bikes have the vast majority of their value added by American parts, The Engine, Trans, Seats, Tanks, Fenders, Paint Work and final assembly are Domestic. In other words the things that make a Harley a Harley are still very much American. Of course Origins was not the Disscussion at hand, The handling of Buell in this troubled Economy was the subject.,And it appears HD may have plans that are slowly comming to light on this also. Again DO YOUR RESEARCH !! Good Night.
David/cigarrz says
Can I get some of that AMC your smokin trey
Trey says
Ah, made a call to confirm what you last posted TM2. You are partially correct on what’s done domestically. The Evo engine and trans is still made here. The Revo engine and trans are made in germany and France, but assembled here in Kansas City (I have friends at the plant, as a matter of fact, several of them actually build Revo engines!). Seats are made in canada, sheet metal is American, paint obviously is, and last but not least final assembly is done here. The wiring harness also is made here. The wheels are Japan, lights are Taiwan, something else is made in Austrailia (freakin’ Austrailia?).
The Goldwing production was shifted to Japan this year. Must’ve missed that. My bad.
I still find it hard to believe that H-D is hurting so badly that they had to dump an entire brand, rather than sell it off. I stand by by statements though, they are all factual, and it’s a shame what they’ve done to the Buell brand.
TM2, i’ll make you a deal. If we see each other, i’ll buy you a beer. I may actually learn something from you!
Deanna says
From a long-term HD success perspective, the only thing worse than killing Buell would be if HD sold Buell. HD neeeds the Helicon technology.
This doesn’t excuse how HD managment blundered this announcement instead of re-branding Buell as HDs
Tin Man 2 says
Trey, I like Beer, I also have 4 different brands of bikes in my garage. Bet we could BS all night!! My brother just bought a new Can Am Spyder Phantom Edition, now that is inovative. Rotax V-Twin power,same basic engine as the Buell and Apprila. I think Rotax/Bomadiouna(spelling) will continus being a supplier of engines to many manufactures.
Trey says
TM2, okay, I envy you a little now! I have an air head bmw r90, an early husky 492, and early 70’s cb350, and a late 90’s SRAD gixxer – 1 runs, and it isn’t the gixxer! i also have various engines, and parts enough to keep me busy for years…
I love the Rotax engines! The one I want is the one that came on the RSV. I was lucky enough to ride one, and man, it was a beautiful thing. I had to wipe the seat down when I was done!
Send me an e-mail, and when I get that way, i’d love to stop by. And vice versa, if you find yourself near Kansas City, you’ll have to stop by.
I admit, i’m opinionated, and a lot an a$$h*le, BUT, i’m always willing to listen and learn something new. I also admit, i’m not a huge fan of H-D, I’m torn as to what i’ve seen and read through the years, some good, some bad. I just don’t follow the crowd that easily… They’ve had so many chances to do so much, and they seem to act like a spoiled child…
TTYL, and ride on brutha!
Ross Daigle says
As far as HD needing the helicon technology, they don’t own the techs of that engine, nor would they use it in any of their HD branded bikes, until 20 years from now when it’s old and outdated, IF the company is still around. I don’t have time to post my thoughts, but I will say that with the openning of EBR, something is rising. What I wouldn’t give for a Euro spec’d 1190CR :D. 185RWHP…
thomas g clark says
Harley Davidson as a company has a great history of screwing up, if it was not for the brand loyalty shown by thier customers it would have folded long ago. buel was making some excelent bikes and i was looking forward to see what buel would put out in the future, buel was on the right path to making a trully american superbike.
Donny says
Over the years i have road triumphs,harley davidson,sport bikes,and toured with them all ,and the best motorcycle i have ever had a chance to ride was the buell lightning long ss, and one of the coolest bikes to.(PS) Bring back the buell lightning long ss,put what ever name you wont on the bike.