Gordon Murray Design just unveiled their T.25, a vehicle in the “city car” class, or, in other words, it’s tiny, at least in comparison to other cars, it’s just under 4 feet wide and 8 feet long, smaller than a Smart Car. The British car is powered by a 51 horsepower inline 3 cylinder engine mounted in the rear. The driver is front and center, 2 passengers sit behind. The front section tilts forward for access.
The diminutive size allows backing in to the curb, parking 3 cars in one parallel parking space, a U-turn is under 20 feet. It weighs 1212 pounds and gets 61.9 miles per gallon. This is definitely something that could scoot around in a city with ease and carry more people in less space on the road, easing congestion. So, what does this have to do with motorcycles?
The T.25 doesn’t take up any more space than maybe a Can-Am Spyder or a Harley sidecar rig or trike, perhaps less. It has all of the mobility of those 3 wheelers, it carries as much or more, it probably can keep up with the Harley, what are the possibilities that someone thinking of buying a big touring rig might entertain the thought of something like this instead? You have the added benefit of extra weather protection, more safety in a crash and you can lock up your belongings while you check out the sights on foot. Although there’s no removable side windows, just some small sliders, if you could open the sides a bit, you would have the small vehicle, open air experience. It doesn’t lean, but neither do trikes. Is this a competitor for those same buyers?
Maybe it’s heresy to suggest such a thing but the vehicular world is changing. If you’re willing to give up the 2 wheel experience, as 3 wheelers already have, what would any bike do a slightly more open T.25 could not? They’re also working on the T.27, an electric version of the T.25
I think this is pretty cool. Of course, it’s begging for someone to swap that engine with something from a Hayabusa or what have you, but even as is, it’s interesting. Is this category of vehicle sort of a crossover, almost motorcycle? What do you think?
Link: Autoblog
Link: Gordon Murray Design
Related: Light Car Company Rocket Powered by Yamaha from Gordon Murray
Tinman says
These vehicles are nice, but where can you use them? With 4 wheels most places in the USA consider this a car, without complying with safety standards you have very limited use options. A big tour bike has no such restrictions, our laws need change to allow for different vehicles. The Lawmakers are very slow to respond to needed changes.
Marvin says
In the UK buying a three wheeler is often the closest you can get to a real bike after a disability disqualifies that part of your licence. This looks more like the closest you can get to a real car. It looks like it will have interesting handling so that also makes it close to a sidecar outfit. I cant see this having the performance of the can am which is essentially a summer time snow mobile, or the sheer anachronistic lunacy of a side car outfit. I don’t think this will steal sales from sidecars or trikes but rather from BMW C1s other large scooters and maybe smart cars.
B.Case says
Well, great, I was thinking about stuffing our v4 into a used Smartcar, or an old Mini, but now I must wait to get my hands on one of these. Think of it as the AC Cobra/Shelby British chassis/American power scenario all over again. Only smaller. Anyone have Gordon’s number?
Simon Evans says
Same traffic jam… just six feet shorter.
Why is the solution to massive over-production and use of the car to massively over-produce a smaller car???
Surely the solution is already present, and correct? – use a bike! What traffic jams?
Now if Gordon turned his attentions to getting rid of the inane compromises that motorcycles have – literally – been saddled with for over 100 years, we could have our cake, and get it home before it melted…
Eric says
“If you’re willing to give up the 2 wheel experience, as 3 wheelers already have, what would any bike do a slightly more open T.25 could not?”
I’m not willing to give up the 2 wheel experience. The question is moot.
Gutluk says
If I’m driving a car, I will not give room for such a thing to pass. I do it with a bike. And I’m sure everyone else will do the same. So, this is just another way of camping in a traffic eiht a nice little car. Any bike smoothly go away.
bR1an says
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2010/03/15/10-reasons-motorcycles-are-better-than-cars/
’nuff said.
hoyt says
The centralized driver’s seat is a cool difference (even with backseat drivers)
Would not compete with trikes, but the Smart car.
“…it probably can keep up with the Harley”. ‘doH!’
Claymore says
It might have it’s uses, but really it’s just a very small car. In my mind the chief difference between other vehicles and motorcycles is that motorcycles need us. Meaning, except for the use of side-cars, if it stays upright without a rider, it’s not a motorcycle.
Mule says
No thanks!
Think of it as a Cobra/Shelby? What are you smokin’ Case?
taxman says
A very interesting car and I’m sure it could give the smart car a run for coolest small car title.
But I don’t think that many sidecar/trike people would really think about replacing their bikes with one of these. I think it would just change the experience, or the perceived experience, just a little bit too much.
I do however think that more people should be driving something like this as their commuter vehicle or to run errands. It’s kind of sad how many people drive big SUVs to my office and it’s just them in the car.
Nate says
I think economical vehicles have their purposes and places, but can’t see it replacing a motorcycle…especially for people who have a motorcycle because they love it. If you’re talking people who only have a motorcycle to save gas on their commute, then maybe. Hopefully not!!!
stacius says
I really like this.
Most of my daily trips are fairly short, to and from work, the market, to places in town.
Before I bought my first bike, I rode a scooter and I really loved the freedom and mobility it afforded me in town. I ride my Buell just about everywhere, but it’s no good for grocery shopping or going to the movies with my girlfriend. Sometimes you don’t want to put on a ton of gear.
If I was in the market for another vehicle, I’d certainly consider it if it was available to me.
mark says
It’s definitely a cool idea, and I’d love to see car drivers adopting smaller, more efficient vehicles like this. It would probably even be a pretty good option for winter transportation when the roads are too slippery for motorcycles.
But at the end of the day, it’s still a four-wheeled cage. No way could it replace a motorcycle for me. Not even a T-Rex could replace a motorcycle, and it is actually classified as one.
Speaking of winter use though… I bet a Can-Am Spyder with snow tires would be really, really fun.
FREEMAN says
Does this car remind anybody else of this?
Mike says
I’d sell my bike in a heartbeat to buy one of these when they are available! It accomplishes all I need in a vehicle. If I want to go on a road trip we will take my wife’s van. Other than that this would more than meet my vehicle needs and partially satisfy my need for a “bike ride”…..when can I get one?
Miles says
Who says it can’t comply with safety regs?
The Smart does, and it is horrible compared to this car.
I want one, I hope they can build it for $9k new.
I would probably be all for a modification that sits the driver down like an F1 car and makes this into a miniature Mclaren F1, complete with 900cc+ motor for speed.
IF you need to carry 2 passengers, I would choose this over a bike, even over a bike with a sidecar.
Gordon Murray is king for suggesting Lane-Splitting for small vehicles. Brilliant.
Yeti says
I would consider this… But not to replace my bike. I would only consider it to replace the beater I drive when it rains.
Bob says
The Tango has been in planning for a long time. I think George Clooney got a Pro-Drive version.
http://commutercars.com/
Check out the videos
todd says
Bob beat me to it. There’s the Tango and the Lumeneo:
http://lumeneo.fr/welcome.html
I wonder what these little cars can do that my ’67 Bug can’t do. It’s only a foot wider. I think this car really is just filling in the gaping hole that was created when the MINI got big, the Fiat 500 disappeared, and the Honda 600 became more Civil. If you want cheap lobby to bring the Tata Nano over.
I think it’s a cute car but I really see no relationship with motorcycles.
-todd
Tinman says
Miles, I say at 1200 Lbs this is not a car that meets US safety standards. The Smart car is a real car and as such weighs almost twice as much. There is a need for laws to change to allow these little guys to operate on a limited access basis. Also this little guy with 51 HP and most likely very little Torque, has no bussiness on a highway.
fast eddie says
ducati wins pikes peak eric buell is doing wonders motorcyclists all over the USA
are riding dayly Ilse of man is history Kneeslider has new space the list goes on and on
Please keep your reporting to bikes . Cycle News east once said, “we don’t care how they do it in california” Three wheels , almost a maybe. Four wheels, Leave the reporting to the
jerks that drive them . ” The kneeslider motorcycles only” [PLEASE] Keep up the good work you guy’s have done [ M/c’s] .
If you need some material ask around motorcycles are everywhere, Just like the bumper sticker on my truck say’s. Hey wanna hear about my truck? I didn’t think so.
See
kneeslider says
fast eddie, on the other hand, you could simply ignore this post, problem solved.
WestOfBen says
This thing is begging for the Triumph 1050 triple rather than a Hayabusa engine. Triples are nicer and it keeps the theme. Cars are cars, I don’t object to this being invented. I ride a motorcycle when I can, because I want to, so this thing is inconsequential. That said, unless this thing HAD a motorcycle engine, which it doesn’t appear to, it shouldn’t really be on the website. But, when you see what happens over on Autoblog what’s the big deal? Most of us readers are interested in anything mechanical, if there is some link to motorcycling then we should just make the choice to read or not. Most people complaining don’t have their own blogs and they take for granted the fact that a person or persons put their own time and effort into keeping the Internets interesting.
Billy B.Tso says
another alternative…was suprised by the good looks….and i dig the matte black paint!
pabsyboots says
why make it narrow when you still use up one lane ? the other minor advantages of narrow don’t make up for the internal compromise especially the incredibly anti social seating, image taking someone for a ride
Brent Meeker says
If it can’t split lanes it might as well be a minivan.
QrazyQat says
“fast eddie, on the other hand, you could simply ignore this post, problem solved.”
I think he already did. 🙂
Mark of Caine says
As an inner urban dweller with limited use for a car, I think I’m in the target market for this kind of vehicle – and I don’ t think it’s competing with a side car or trike. I’d say it’s for people who want a utilitarian transport in the city, and also want to have a little fun. Someone who might think about a scoot, but wants 4 wheels, or the ability to carry kids, or some adults at a pinch.
And remember, fellow posters, just because it wouldn’t fit your needs, doesn’t mean it’s without merit. There’s a lot of European cities that would love this car. Murray is a genius designer – if there are safety regs he planned to meet, I guarantee he met them.
For mine, I’d like like it a bit sportier, maybe without a roof and, as everyone is suggesting, with a bigger engine.
Boog says
Ho Hum!
Just a rehash of the old Isetta from the ’60’s.
But then again, this would be just the ticket for going to work when it is 25 degrees outside…and hauling all the junk around that I must for work.
Unfortunately, these things are never cheap and will turn into toys for the well-heeled tree-huggers out there. I’ll just get another Suburban for 3-4K that is a few years old and in good shape to drive my 15 miles a day for work purposes..and get 19mpg to boot. Yeah, I am the only one that’s in it, also…
Boog says
Check out this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta
Boog says
Here’s one available NOW on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-ISETTA-STUNNING-1957-BMW-ISETTA-ORIGINAL-CALIFORNIA-CAR-LOW-MILES-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5ada83dd60QQitemZ390213131616QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks
The Model Citizen says
I don’t feel this vehicle will have any impact on motorcycling. The market has changed since the days when the Mini was introduced. To some commentators the mini played a part in the demise of the British motorcycle industry as there was suddenly a vehicle which could carry more that a bike and sidecar, in more comfort and only slightly more expensive.
Now, in most western markets, a motorcycle is a luxury item. The percentage of riders who ride only because they can’t afford a car are minimal (a study into the increase in scooter ownership and this point would be interesting). As to three wheelers, to me, that is a lifestyle choice. Does anyone know a Spyder owner who bought it because they can’t afford a car? Or a Harley trike?
todd says
Tinman, I’ve never read about a minimum weight requirement for cars and this is not a whole lot lighter than my VW I mentioned earlier. In fact, with pretty much the same HP as my bug (well, at least with the original motor). The T25 has a superior power to weight ratio, pretty close to that of a Ford F350 pickup truck and I don’t hear people saying those can’t get up and go. Top speed for this thing is probably around 100mph.
OK, now I wouldn’t want to get in the way of that F350 once it got going…
-todd
Robb says
Try & find a price for it, looks like a great town car but something tells me it’s going to have an above mainstream price (which kind of defeats the purpose). I wonder how access issues are going to effect getting the car ‘road legal’.
HoughMade says
Todd, your ’67 Bug did not have to meet 2010+ crash standards or safety equipment requirements.
This thing is not for me, but I’m a rural dweller who commutes to a city. This is for inner cities and for that (assuming it can be made legal to sell) it would work well. I love my bike, but for me it is not an every day, year-round option. If I was a city dweller, something like this would be.
Tinman says
Todd, Energy absorbing bumpers, Side beams for crash protection, collapsable steering columns, Crush Zones for pedestrian safety, roll over standards, these all add weight and cost to todays vehicles. I like this little thing, Im just stating the fact that with existing laws it has limited use. The car does not have to get bigger, the laws need to change to allow its use on low speed roadways. The F350 is not a commuter car, and this little guy is not for towing a construction trailer, There is a place for both vehicles but the X-Way is not it.
Sanders says
Cool idea, seating looks a tad bit on the cramped side.
John S says
Also a ’67 bug with its loose tolerance air-cooled carbureted motor would fail both noise and emissions requirements.
jim says
I’m a big fan of dinky cars, and this is a fairly advanced concept. With a Triumph triple motor as WestOfBen suggests, it would be a great drive — how ’bout a Rocket 3 engine for some real motivation? But it isn’t a motorcycle and won’t replace motorcycles. People who want a micro car such as a Smart will continue to buy cars. Riders will continue to buy motorcycles, even with three wheels. BTW, I’ve owned a sidecar rig — an XS650 Yamaha with a hack attached, and once I learned the tricks (it’s not a motorcycle, not a car; it’s its own thing) it was beyond fun. It needed another 100 cc’s, though, and was too much for the 650 on the highway. But it was a total blast around town and in the snow, and I was known as “that nut with the sidecar.” Plus I could carry lots of stuff.
FREEMAN says
@ tinman:
“Miles, I say at 1200 Lbs this is not a car that meets US safety standards. The Smart car is a real car and as such weighs almost twice as much. There is a need for laws to change to allow these little guys to operate on a limited access basis. Also this little guy with 51 HP and most likely very little Torque, has no bussiness on a highway.”
You could argue the same thing for bicycles on roadways, yet for some reason those are legal.
Azzy says
I dont think that most here in the US get the utility of one of these from the original intent of the vehicle.
1. In Europe.. streets are slimmer. Larger cars will not physically fit down some.
2. In the UK, they have multiple taxes based on vehicles of sizes and wheel configurations.
3. Refer to #1 and think of parking.
4. in Europe, most fuel is not as cheap as in the US.
So, is it a great idea here? depends. If you only plan on gallivanting around the city, why not. My bud has a Four-Two (Smart) and uses it for short trips and most daily drives, and uses the bigger van for longer trips or capacity. just like i use my bike for most city trips, but sometimes prefer to have a bit more with me and take the car.
Harvey Mushman says
There is an interesting article in this months or last months (June 2010 , page 10 it can be viewed online http://www.amadirectlink.com/magazine/2010/June/index.asp) AMA magazine about small cars like this being registered as motorcycles. They were being registered as motorcycles so they would not have to meet safety standards. There were concerns about it redefining what a motorcycle is defined as by the federal government, not a good thing. Take a look at the article.
Harvey Mushman says
Sorry I messed up the link http://www.amadirectlink.com/magazine/2010/June/index.asp
it on page 10
DetonatorTuning says
my rain and snow car is a ’92 Geo Metro XFi. 1700lbs, 49hp, 55mpg on 87 oct E10.
i’d use it on the same 30 ml. round trip, rural to town ( all secondary roadways )commute i use my ’85 Vmax (40 mpg) and motorized Trek bike (120 mpg, 55 mph capable) on.
this little car is aimed stright at ME and i’d buy one if they could get it past NAZI’s looking out for my own good.
Hawk says
Ok, so I’m talking with this old buddy and he says, “4 wheels are so much easier to handle than 2 when you’re drunk.”
Now THAT’s logic ….
Nicolas says
It’s higher than wider, looks like it will flip at the first corner taken with a spirited mind … ?
For mine, I’d like like it a bit sportier, maybe without a roof and, as everyone is suggesting, with a bigger engine, and only wheels …. uh, wait a minute …
Nicolas says
I meant “only 2 wheels”
Patrick says
A few issues ago, “RaceCar Engineering” interviewed Murray about this car, which was still under wraps at the time. The key point Murray made concerned the technology behind the car’s manufacturing strategies, not the utilitarian nature of the vehicle. Given that we are not too many years away from a carbon tax on whatever we drive, a tax on the holistic carbon footprint of any/every vehicle, from the energy used to fabricate the frame and body, to the fuel consumed over, say, 150K miles, perhaps we should wait for Murray’s thoughts on manufacturing before choosing sides. To which I would add: when carbon footprint tax becomes the law of the land, motorcycles will score well, agreed?
todd says
Regardless if my bug is noisy or doesn’t meet 2010 auto safety or emissions standards it’s still street legal. It can and has been doing everything this little car can for the last 43 years. People don’t seem to realize that if you want a simple, small, inexpensive car that you can use on occasion, squirt around town or take club racing, you can do it without spending umpteen (or 40) thousand dollars. These things already exist and have existed for at least a hundred years. Heck, if you want quiet, clean safety why are we all riding around on motorcycles?
It still stands; this is a cute car. It’s for people who want to look cool and be noticed. It’s not about saving money – and don’t try to use the 61.9MPG argument. It doesn’t make much sense to spend $700 a month to buy a car that saves $50 a month in gas.
I say, ride or drive what you want because you like it – don’t try to pass off your choice as some kind of noble cause.
-todd
jp says
As competition in the Smart’s niche, very cool, and if it were able to get by US crash regs it’d be nice to see a different tiny car sometimes in the herds of Smart cars.
As competition in the motorcycle/trike sector however, not a chance. Too many wheels, sides and a roof, too little horsepower, and different handling dynamic than bikes, tilting trikes or regular trikes. Not even apples to oranges, more like apples to rutabaga.
T says
I agree with most of the posts here, and think this is a neat little car. It would be nice to be able to bring these things into the US, but oh well…
I do believe this is directly related to motorcycles as it affects the industry and reaches some of the same consumers in terms of function.
Velomobilist says
The Lotus Elise US legal FHTSA certified is 1800 lbs. So, the T25 at 1200 lbs. doesn’t seem like too much of a stretch. The overly worn nonsensical comment about, “OMG I don’t want to be hit by an SUV in such a small vehicle,” is truly idiotic when voiced by persons that ride motorcycles that weigh less than 500lbs on major highways. And, in my neck of the woods, helmets are optional. So, given there are people willing to accept the risk of riding motorcycles, scooters, and bicycles on roads used by large vehicles, it is ridiculous to even whine about the “risk” issues of a small car concept. Good on ya Kneeslider for bringing expanded thinking to the motorcycle enthusiast dialog. For those that want the same old rehash, spend your time reading Motorcyclist, Cycle World, etc. Cheers