The Kneeslider

Doers Builders and Positive People

Gasoline or Electric – Why Not Both?

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Brammo Empulse - an interesting example of the all electric side
Brammo Empulse - an interesting example of the all electric side

Start a conversation about electric motorcycles or cars and you get responses quickly falling into either of two camps:

One group has no time for electric vehicles because they haven’t made the leap to practicality, they have too little range and take far too long to recharge. While admitting they have some performance potential, the downside outweighs any upside. Check back when you have something that works and in the meantime, fill ‘er up!

The other group looks at electric vehicles as the environmentally friendly answer to all of our transportation concerns, whether it’s over reliance on fossil fuels, peak oil, global warming or some other green cause du jour. Sure electrics have their downsides, but if we all just go slower and plan our drive more carefully we’ll have enough power to get to our destination where we can slowly recharge and smell the flowers. After all, we have to save the earth.

Motus - small block fossil fueled V4
Motus - small block fossil fueled V4

The first group wants something that works, period, anyone interested in electrics is some environmental zealot and the practical guys want no part of it while the second group would rather put up with any inconvenience because saving the earth is worth any sacrifice, if you insist on using gasoline you’re some sort of neanderthal. “How could those guys be so clueless?” is a question both sides ask. It doesn’t make for pleasant or productive conversation.

Rotary generator / batteryIf you remember the article some time back about the rotary engine generator/battery, both groups were represented, but a couple of comments hinted at a “third way” (sounds very Zen, doesn’t it?), it’s a middle ground where the real progress might happen and make both sides sit up and take notice.

No matter which group you’re in, consider the other side. If you want practical performance, think electric, or if you want electric, think practical performance. In the first instance, forget the environment and in the second, forget the fuel. If the practical high performance option ends up being electric, who cares as long as it works? If the way to get a lot of electric vehicles on the road is to go halfway with internal combustion generators that aren’t “pure” solutions, who cares as long as it works? Focus on one thing at a time. Once we move in that direction, continued development could get us a lot closer to seeing electrics in more places and possibly to a “pure” electric solution while the development of higher and higher performance would satisfy the “show me what works crowd.”

Are you a show me what works kinda guy?
If you insist on ignoring electric vehicles you might be missing some huge performance potential. Electric motors have enormous torque available from 0 rpm throughout their range of operation, they have far fewer parts to fail than an internal combustion engine, they can easily enable multi wheel drive in motorcycles and cars because the motor can be installed inside the wheel and they have excellent control potential because computers can instantly vary the input as conditions change. That’s pretty impressive. If there was a way to use electric motors to get all or more of the performance you get now and still fill up in minutes, wouldn’t that be worth trying?

Are you a “we must convert to electric now” environmentalist?
If you want more people to look at your ideas and try electric vehicles, consider their point of view, too. If you can demonstrate to them how well electrics provide the practical performance they’re used to, don’t you think they might be willing to give it a shot?

If you think going slow for short distances is just fine, you’re never going to win over anyone who doesn’t already agree. If you advocate carbon taxes, gas taxes and multiple environmental regulations to force people to change, that’s not real change, that’s the appearance of change. You get a lot of folks who will resist, fighting your methods at every opportunity and electrics will be viewed as the government imposed solution, a sure loser in the long term.

If a less than “pure” solution gets more people, especially the high performance garage guy, working on electrics, the advances may come with astonishing speed, accomplishing voluntarily what force can’t accomplish at all. Every time you begin to preach about the environment, you lose the other side. Every good salesman knows you will sell far more if you help someone get what he wants instead of trying to convince him he needs what you’re selling. If there was a way to get a lot of electric vehicles on the road, even if they weren’t “pure” electric vehicles, wouldn’t that be worth trying?

I really like the concept of that rotary generator specifically because you can wring out all the performance you want from an electric motor and then pull into a gas station, fill up in a few minutes and be off. Current batteries can’t do that. If the rotary generator, admittedly, not ready for commercial use, or some similar technology could pull that off, think of what might happen. We would be halfway there while waiting for the battery advancements that are always just around the corner. Whether those batteries get here sooner or later, we would still have some pretty interesting vehicles in the meantime and a whole new group of guys finding out what electrics can do. If we focused on generating electricity on board instead of storing it, we could use electric motors a lot sooner. If everyone got used to the instant high torque of electric motors while still having quick fill up convenience, when that super long distance, fast charging battery finally arrives, the switch to full electric would be a non issue.

I think this “third way” has a lot of potential for both camps and I’m curious about how willing the supporters on both sides might be to try the halfway solution. Your thoughts?

Posted on Filed Under: Alternative thinking, Electric motorcycles

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Comments

  1. Great post!

    I’ve been supporting the idea of plug-in hybrid bikes for a long time now. Enough battery capacity to get you 20 or 30 km, so most commutes could be done on battery alone, and recharged in the garage. But additionally a small gas turbine driving a generator with enough capacity to keep the batteries topped up indefinitely. Turbines are super smooth, can run on nearly anything a dinosaur ever turned into, are very efficient at a single speed, and are compact and easily packaged. Best of both worlds!

    Sure you could wait till batteries improve enough that you could ride 300km on a charge and charge in ten minutes anywhere, just to not have to burn any fuel ever, but why wait? Perfection is the enemy of progress.

  2. This surely is the perfect middle ground, no? A bunch of years back I heard about a car manufacturer trying this out (I knew an employee there). The idea was to have a small internal combustion engine that when needed would run at optimal revs to drive a generator while the actual power train would be electric. Sounds like a no-brainer!? Why hasn’t it reached the market? And yes, I would love to see it on a motorcycle!

    • Exactly, which is a great vehicle on many fronts…excluding the price. In the volt, the gasoline engine never directly powers the wheels, but runs at optimum efficiency to charge the batteries only when needed. A bike that could have the same thing would be great, but it’s a lot of hardware for a very small package.

  4. I want a shop truck with a 10000lb capacity and electric drive that can do a 10 min freeway stint. We have a 20000 watt welder/generator on the back in case of range problems. I can’t find one in North America. I can get a big truck or a slow truck.. I can get one in Europe
    There are mini turbines being built for model airplanes that can run on refined vegetable oil. COME ON!! Add a small generator, squeeze it into a 600 race frame, add a battery that will get you around town. Just put it all together in a mass produced package that allows it to be reasonably priced.
    How cool would that sound be!! Leer jet instead of some lame .dominominomino!
    I’m a speed junkie that likes to ride anything anywhere. I don’t care if it’s an ICE or electric as long as it puts a grin on my face. My main interest in electrics is lack of maintenance.

    • Cameron, there’s a guy in Haines Oregon who does just that with farm trucks. He adds radio control so he can drive while feeding cattle from the trailer. Story in recent Baker City Herald.

  5. Where to start
    Battery range : you want range, you need electrons, which come with proton’s and neutrons (i.e. mass)
    Then you need to haul that mass down the road
    Hydrocarbon fuels – as you consume them, the mass decreases.
    We use to run endurance races – and 5-6 gallons have weight – think of carrying that weight all the time

    Motors in hubs ? … let’s talk about spring vs un-sprung weight (ask you suspension folks)

    Electric motors and torque – indeed, massive torque at zero RPM, but decreasing delta as you wind them up … give me good mid range “grunt”

    Sorry folks, motorcycles are for entertainment and modest weight, great handling and mid range power suit me just fine

    • I think you forgot to add the words “In my opinion” someone in our statement.

      I see delivery drivers all day who could use something like this.

  6. All things considered …. the only thing that interests me about any electric vehicle is the idea.

    When and if someone can build one that interests me and put it within my reach … I’ll try it.

    So far …. that aint happenin baby.

  7. I too await the microturbine hybrid. This kind of technology has driven our railroads for nearly a century.
    As to government involvement, those same railroads that shaped this country would have been fewer and much later if not for a massive government investment. Subsequently our government built refineries for the war effort in the 1940’s which were handed over to private oil companies to operate after the war. An interstate highway system built by the taxpayers reshaped our country again and government subsidized oil fueled the glory that was motoring in the 50s and 60s. To pretend now that any part of our transportation infrastructure sprung up from pure cleverness and the magical hidden hand of the free market is naive. It will take the inventive brilliance embodied in the early attempts we are already witnessing, as well as enlightened public policy, to make it viable for us to stay competitive in whatever will be the future of transportation.

  8. Any kind of hybrid is definitely the way to go. Going all electric is a too extreme switch, the world is not ready for it in many ways. Where would all the electricity come from if people really would choose E-bikes? Nuclear power plants? Gas powered plants everywhere? Electricity is not all that green as it is made out to be. And talking about the battery’s ‘teething problems’ – this ‘baby’ is 30 or more years old! If the Wright Brothers would have been that slow, we’d still fly in double-deckers today.
    Real progress would be if an engine produces all of the electricity it needs. It would eliminate charging times, charging stations, plants producing electricity, an expensive net to supply E to E stations. Also batteries could be much simpler and lighter. Therefore weight of some kind of dynamo is added. And: you never get stranded with an empty battery, a nightmare for E-vehicle owners.
    Personally I’d never buy an all-E-bike. But give me a 400cc triple four-stroke combined with an E-motor which also harnesses the energy lost in a conventional brake system, which produces 80hp and lots of torque and I’d be very interested – if I can afford it!

  10. I used to work for an aerial work-platform company and we had all three. A diesel lift, gas or gas/propane lift, an all-electric lift, and a on-board generator electric. Nothing new here. The “third way” has been around for decades. I agree, however, especially for motorcycles. We don’t need tons of batteries on our motorcycles. We need on-demand electric power and reserve for an electric motorcycle to be successful today as anyone’s ride. Of course, since most motorcyclists are cheapskates or self-proclaimed “gods” it would probably also have to have an economical, affordable model as well as a performance model. Such a motorcycle would also be more successful if you left out any and all references to “electric” and “green” when promoting it. Since such discussion almost always breaks down into how “green” it really is and “where” such energy comes from and “infrastructure” even though such background never seems to matter about what we currently ride today and always ends up in a circular argument.

  11. It would be like riding an automatic motorcycle with an inaudible exhaust system. From what I can remember, those have never sold very well (think CB750A Hondamatic and such).

    Though I am part of a team developing a turbine/electric hybrid vehicle I wouldn’t want that on my motorcycle. I love running up through the gears, down-shifting to the right gear for a corner, popping the clutch to lift the front, and blipping the throttle occasionally. Who doesn’t love the sound of a crisp Ducati idling on it’s side stand with the occasional RRRAAAPPAAAAHH on the twist grip. Glorious.

    -todd

    • There’s nothing that says an electric motor can’t use a transmission just like a gas engine — it’s just inefficient and more cumbersome for the rider.

      If there is demand for it, then electric vehicles will eventually be offered with regular transmissions. CVTs have been programmed to simulate a multi-speed transmission, there’s no reason electric motors can’t accommodate people wanting to live in the past as well.

    • Brammo Enertia has a 5 speed gear box and a clutch. Its not for nostalgia but to get capture the best performance from the engine at all speeds.

  12. Hybrid vehicles are really quite an ugly solution. So much cost, weight and complexity! Motorcycles are highly weight-sensitive and low cost vehicles. By the time you get a decent hybrid system in there, a basic commuter bike is going to end up with the same weight and cost as a litrebike, with the performance of a 250cc four-stroke and probably similar fuel mileage. If people are really concerned about fuel consumption on motorcycles, they should just ride a 250cc or smaller. They still give adequate performance, for very low cost and low weight. I don’t think that even the most hard-core environmentalist could successfully argue that a modern 250cc four-stroke motorcycle is killing the planet. If you want more performance, logically you have to pay for it with higher fuel consumption!

  13. Air petrol hybrid. V twin one cylinder runs on petrol (ethanol) the other on compressed air. Engine should be capable of solely running either cylinder or both. Kers built in engine works as a compressor under deceleration.

  14. Why not Diesel? my 2003 Jetta wagon is comming up on 200,000 miles with no engine related problems and gets 55mpg on the highway, newer versions are even better on fuel and much cleaner, and talk about torque.
    Ducati has has a Monster “Diesel” edition, and now that VW/Audi has purchased Ducati, with all their diesel experiance it should not be a problem for them to let us have a real Diesel “Monster” or diesel Audi Le Mans superbike!

  15. If its practicality – range and environment you’re wanting Hybrids solve none of the above what with their rare earth metals – excessive energy consumption to produce – battery problems etc .

    The Micro Turbine though brilliant has proven an utter failure BTW

    Want all of the above . Here’s the formula

    Lighter
    More aerodynamic
    Less horsepower
    More efficient ICE

    Amazingly enough if you follow that formula bikes would be less expensive to boot

    Except ……. oh wait ….. the Environmental Movement ceases being a movement about two decades ago . Its now Big Business . They’d figure out a way to charge you more for less … guaranteed

  16. Let me frame the question another way: How can we use an electric motor to get the benefit of the flat torque curve starting at 0 rpm, without the limitations of using a battery, how would you provide electricity to the motor while still having the quick fillup we’re used to? In other words, eliminate the battery.

    It’s so hard to get anyone to discuss this without sliding into the old ICE vs electric debate. Don’t think about this as trying to replace the internal combustion engine, think about it as a way to use an electric motor because of the specific benefits it has, high torque across a broad rpm range, fewer parts and low maintenance; those are all things any gearhead can appreciate. Forget environment or government or any of the usual points that cloud the issue, think of this simply as a speed and performance project.

    Think of this as one option among many. This isn’t a “hybrid” in the usual sense of the term because it can totally do away with the battery, except, perhaps, as a buffer for short bursts, which may be better served by capacitors, anyway.

    • So, replace the transmission with a generator and traction motor set… This works for diesel-electric locomotives where the extra weight is not a problem, in fact desired for traction. Electric generators and motors are quite heavy, and have a limited rpm range. Then add in the loss of efficiency, don’t forget you will still need a transmission, at least for the motor part. And you need a controller that can control the output of the generator.

    • Hydro Fuel Cell. When that nut is cracked its game over. Best solution for an eBike. All the good of electricity with little of the bad.

  17. We’ve got touring bikes, dirt bikes, cruisers, etc, that don’t really have much in common save the number of wheels. So, why not electric local bikes and fuel burning road bikes? I just feel that a better product will come from trying to idealize two different types than from trying to optimize a compromise between them.

  18. If you don’t have a battery, then an electric drive can only give the power that the combustion engine is making. The whole system is merely a transmission. If you want a more efficient transmission than a geared, clutched manual trans, then a CVT would be a much more effective solution than an electric drive. The engine can perform at peak power all the time and the CVT varies the gearing to give maximum torque to the rear wheel. It has all of the advantages of an electric drive, at lower cost and probably lower weight. That’s why CVTs are so common on 50cc scooters. They need to economise on both power and cost, and the CVT has proven itself an attractive solution.

    • You might have a battery, but only as short term storage of excess electrical energy from whatever power generation device you are using. Imagine using the electric motor driven motorcycle as you wish, accelerating as hard as you want, running as fast as you want or just cruising slowly and accelerating at a lazy pace. You never worry about range as you would with a pure electric because you can fill up at any gas station just like you do now.

      The motor isn’t running directly from the engine/generator but from the electrical energy temporarily stored in a buffer which can be quickly replenished by the engine when demands are less than the generator is capable of providing. It’s as though the electric motor is running from a battery that never runs out, except for when the gasoline or diesel or whatever fuel you are using does.

      Would there be any performance advantage by doing things this way? Would this be a more efficient way of converting the energy in the liquid fuel to forward motion? Since you are running some form of generator and making electricity, there’s no need for a mechanical transmission, as electric motorcycles have shown is unnecessary.

      Since you are not moving the motorcycle directly from the engine, an engine not readily adaptable to a mechanical transmission for forward motion might still be well suited for power generation.

      This has probably been thoroughly discussed in some forum somewhere with electrical engineers and lots of math, but it seems like an interesting idea and I’m trying to sort it out, so if someone with real expertise wants to jump in, by all means, do so.

      • Ok, so now you got (all of the above I mentioned) plus a battery? Sounds like a Prius.
        Still, if you are going to have an ICE on board, driving the bike directly from the ICE is the most efficient. Then use the battery/ generator/ motor combo to reduce the size of the ICE. The ICE could cut in to the drive train after the transmission. In rough terms, if 100hp is sufficient with just ICE, lets say a 30hp ICE and 70hp electric. Now you’re powering the bike from a stop with both, drawing electricity from a battery. When the bike nears cruising speed you back off the throttle and the ICE begins recharging the battery, as it only take 20hp to cruise. (I am pulling these numbers out of a hat as an example.) It would take a fairly large battery to power a 70hp motor for any appreciable amount of time And we want to charge it fairly quickly as we cant predict when the next burst of power would be needed. Because, obviously a 70hp motor is going to draw electricity more than twice as fast as a 30hp generator can recharge.

      • Considering how complex a 6 speed automatic transmission is…and how complex a multi cam variable valve timing engine is…i’d say the ICE powered generator/electric motor idea is a very viable option. Especially considering it has already proved its worth in the railroads, ships, and large mining equipment. I don’t see it being competitive in a motorcycle anytime this decade though.

        Here’s how you save by switching to a gas-electric drive train:

        eliminate the transmission, direct drive only
        eliminate the complex valve train, go with a simple pushrod 2valve design
        minimal number of cylinders, large cylinders.
        design it for low RPMs and lighten the crankshaft and bearings accordingly
        I would like to see a 3 cylinder valveless two stroke direct injected diesel with multi-stage turbo which has a “turbine compounding” output shaft on the turbo geared to the engine crankshaft.

        Remember, you are basically just running a gasoline(or diesel) generator to power an electric motor. I believe Volvo is working on such a drivetrain. The motor runs constant speed. There’s no need for multi-valves or variable valve timing. With a valveless two stroke diesel, you also don’t have a throttle, ignition system, or any valvetrain at all.

        now, you want this in a bike?? Good luck. That’s going to take quite a bit more technology to package it all into an appealing package for a motorcycle enthusiast to get excited about.

  19. This particular form of rotary engine….while brilliant as an idea, in reality is a poor candidate for fuel efficiency because of the large combustion chamber surface area to engine volume compared to that old reliable piston engine. Fuel/Air mixture in close proximity to the chamber surfaces does not burn properly, thus poor fuel efficiency. Pure Electric has a long way to go before it’s carbon footprint goes much beyond steadily improving internal combustion engines. Electric is only as enviro friendly as the power generation it receives it’s energy from. And what about our power grid….how many pluggins can it handle before tipping over the edge. Too many questions…not enough real world answers. The Nissan Leaf is a prime example of roadside dead battery anxiety in the making(not even considering the roadside safety of the victims of a dead battery)….should I mention poor residuals at time of vehicle replacement….spending thousands to save pennys is a fools game.

    • Carbon footprints and enviro-friendly have nothing to do with this particular discussion as I have pointed out above more than once. This is strictly about using the electric motors for motive force with electricity on demand provided with on board generation. Is there any performance advantage? Does it convert the energy from fuel to forward motion more efficiently?

      • Don’t go the serial Hybrid route. Use a parallel hybrid system instead. The engine is direct-coupled to the wheel thru a conventional clutch and gearbox. There is a second PTO that mounts a little 3-phase motor that is used to a) start the prime-mover and b) flatten out the peaks and valleys of torque being delivered to the rear wheel. This electronic power “boost” can be accurately controlled to the ragged edge of tractability. It can also serve as a power “bleed” that scrapes off some excessive IC power and redirects it to the capacitor bank, while preventing the wheel from breaking loose and greasing the tire. The system would add minimal weight or cost because the conventional starter and solenoid would be subtracted from those values.

      • I do apologize for taking a hard right on the article, but I think we still have a long way to go in the development of that old standby piston engine. The auto industry is making huge improvements in fuel efficiency with small turbocharged, direct injected engines, improvements in automatic and dual clutch transmissions, maybe the adoption of the zeroshift transmission by some. I see the near future of the auto industry as the poster child of innovation. I truly believe that the biggest roadblock to the adoption of pure pluggin electric vehicles is our power generation infrastructure. I also believe that Economy of scale places the motorcycle industry in a position of now adopting technology from the auto industry.

  20. Excellent article and responses. IMHO, Its all about the efficiency of converting the power to work. Most electricity comes from fossil fuel and its filthy. Batteries come from exotic materials mined in unreliable places. As you can see, many factors come into the overall carbon footprint calculations before, during, and after the twist of the throttle.

    I like to envision my perfect bike. I’ve built several over the years. If I had the money to start from scratch to build an electric bike – I would like to build a drop dead gorgeous ADV/ Cruiser type of bike that was powerful, smooth, comfortable, reliable, excellent handling/braking, heavy hauler bike that would run on whatever is the cheapest fuel on the road. So it would be a multi-fuel generator – Diesel [ no – too noisy and shaky ] – Gas turbine [ maybe/ its smooth and powerful ] – Sterling [ maybe/ its smooth, powerful, and quiet ]. I would also like to install a thermocouple material recuperator in the exhaust to capture the waste heat from combustion process and convert it into electric power. The biggest waste of any ICE is heat. I would envision the electric engine driving a CVT so the gearing could always vary to compliment the power characteristics of the electric motor. Hopefully, this form of generation and driveline would provide excellent fuel economy for whatever fuel I could find on the road plus an unparalleled amount of power and speed.

    So many ICE on bikes today are compromises and they are really not fully utilizing the power stored in a drop of fuel. The trick is simplicity and technology.

  21. Perfect title – Why Not Both?

    Currently addicted to my new Yamaha Super Tenere, I’ve been patiently waiting for an electric bike that I can truly freeway commute at least 50 miles per day.

    When all said and done, say the Super T farkled up costs 20k and the Brammo Empulse R is another 20k……….. Simply compare it to a car. For 40k, I’d much rather have two killer motos over adding one more damn car to the road.

    The Brammo Empulse R will be in my garage very soon!!
    Having both is the smartest answer.

  22. Are there any locomotive engineers (not the engineer at the controls, but those that design the locomotive) on here?

    Steam power was on its’ way out about the time I was born, and it’s been diesel-electric ever since. Yes there is a difference in scale, but the concept is the same. I went to possibly the last open-house General Motors had at their locomotive factory on Chicago’s south side in the early ’80’s, it closed soon after. If any of those engineers are left, we might gain a little more insight into this idea. I suspect plenty of those guys are gear-heads too.

    • You betchya

      Trains went to electric motors decades ago, so there’s no point in telling us its not feasible. However, its a trickle down phenomenon. Trains and ships first. Then large mining and earth moving equipment. Then logging equipment. Then large agricultural equipment. Then class 8 semi tractor trailers. Then class 7, 6, 5 etc and straight trucks. Then light trucks. Then cars. Then bikes.

      Trying to jump right in with cars and bikes is a fruitless endeavor. These things take time. it will happen some day, just not today.

  23. In the current Flemish top motor mag “Motoren en toerisme” I just read the story about 40 yrs Ducati L twins. And after studying the fabulous photo’s I decided that electric vehicles are definitily from The Dark Side, devilish, decadent, wrong and to be cursed 4 ever. But I like my electric toothbrush. So I am modern enough

  24. example:make a drag racer(you need to start somewhere)with a big e motor and NO BATTERIES,since the motor is supplied with electricity from the sidewalls of the race track(left+,right-)via flexible titanium extensions angled backwards…………………child dreams aside,someone said it before,the fast FLYWHEEL will kill the battery,thats the way to go

  25. I agree with Paul’s argument (and have promoted it for years). Until we can pack as much energy by weight in a battery at a competitive cost of ownership (capital cost of battery less savings from cost of electricity vs gas) then hybrid is the only viable alternative to gas. The ideal hybrid configuration is where the ICE is optimized to be simply a very efficient generator. As others have noted, I’d also like to see improved aerodynamics added to the equation.

    People who own motorcycles for conventional ICE aesthetic or high performance reasons will not be interested in such a bike. However people who place more value on their environmental impact and people who are comfortable with unconventional form with great function will be the prime target market. I have long thought that the scooter market, especially the market for larger scooters, is the ideal segment for early adoption of hybrid electric drive supported by an ICE generator.

  26. I imagine a couple of tanks -one pressurized, the other not so- holding a nice and thin vegetable oil. Also, I imagine a small diesel engine burning that veggie oil, connected to a hydraulic pump which in turn drives hydraulic in-hub motors on each wheel -which are, by the way, lighter than electric hub motors and don’t need rare earth magnets-. I imagine that the whole hydraulic system uses the same thin vegetable oil as hydraulic fluid, and that when braking, the hydraulic motors act like pumps, storing pressurized oil on the secondary tank, which can be used back into the motors -like a generative braking system-.

    So, what do we have? a carbon-neutral system that needs no batteries nor electricity and can be serviced on any hydraulic systems shop.

  27. The obvious hitch of course is conversion loss. The ICE is converting chemical energy to mechanical, the generator is converting that energy to electrical energy, the battery is converting that back to chemical energy, the motor is then converting that back to mechanical energy which is then incidentally converted along the power train for speed and axis of rotation. Looking somewhat like this .
    Fuell>ICE>Gen>Batt.>Mot.>Diff.>Wheel.
    Every single transition is an engineering challenge to reduce, (you can’t eliminate), loss.
    Current automotive hybrids don’t save energy in initial transmission, they, rather, compensate for their additional weight by recovering energy lost through braking. That’s why lighter simpler cars often give them a run for their money. Light and simple is something motorcycles have in spades.
    That stated though, I know electric propulsion has been in the transportation mix for a long time. It is within reach. When it does emerge, I suspect it will breed new factions of riders rather than eliminate any. Just as how today any given rider may be a cruiser, dual sport, or sport bike loyalist, I’m sure there will be “sparkies” who will question our clinging to slower, less versatile primitive ICE bikes.

  28. I’ve been following Craig Vetter’s involvement in two wheeled aerodynamics for some time. It is an interesting field which yields savings using what we have now without messing around in the engine bay. See his website.

  29. range and re-charge time are still the top consumer questions and those are the top influences on buying decisions. All of the other good points mentioned above (enviro, geopolitical, & even performance) seem to come after range and re-charge.

    I don’t know much about how an ebike manages its energy source, but I assume an existing e-bike has 4 batteries that are used simultaneously (instead of sequentially) in order to achieve their performance & current range. Once depleted, the batteries take x hours to re-charge completely….

    In a hybrid model, assume 2 of the batteries are removed and replaced with a fuel-source “re-generator” motor. These questions come to mind:

    1. Could only the 2 remaining batteries operate the bike at the same performance levels as the all electric bike above? (for simplicity sake, assume the range is cut in half if no ICE motor existed to replenish)
    2. If yes, can the motor replenish the 2 remaining batteries in a much shorter interval than the re-charge time of an all electric bike?
    3. Can one battery power the bike so that the power source from the batteries are sequential? When the 1st battery is depleted, the 2nd kicks in and the ICE motor replenishes the 1st battery. Repeat until you need to fill up. Could this setup ultimately have a longer range?

    This comment re-hashes Paul’s topic but I wanted to find out how the ebikes manage their batteries in the context of the hybrid topic.

    • Correction: “….but I assume an existing e-bike has 4 batteries”.. Didn’t mean to suggest all ebikes have 4 batteries., even if the Brammo looks like it has 4. I was wondering more about whether or not ebikes use their batteries simultaneously.

  30. You asked the question and I’ll be honest in my reply ….. I have no clue how to use the great flat torque line without using heavy and expensive batteries.

    I am not sarcastic, the question is good, but I don’t think anyone has a clue, hence the market with electric bikes looks the way it does today.

  31. Flat torque curve …. well, I have a 1985 Honda “Saber V65” (1100 cc V4) that has been known to do high 11 sec quarter mile (Pee Wee Gleason), ton-up is 3rd gear, and the throttle is like a rheostat … very linear

  32. I drove a tesla roadster awhile ago and it was more fun than any car I’ve ever driven. Why you ask? Sounds crazy and car guys will freak but its got one forward gear and is always in the powerband (up to bout 95 mph I found, thou I got it to 110 plenty fast). Its like driving a fast boat. Want to pass? smash the gas! a bike like that would have me swappin my SV650… but not my R1100GS.

  33. I think what Paul is looking for are ideas on how to as opposed to why not. How about regenerative electric suspension? I have often thought of a bicycle with an electric motor, a battery, and pedals attached to a generator. It doesn’t matter if you are going up or down hill, you just pedal along at whatever pace you can. This is the same idea except we all want to replace the generating source with something. Where’s Tony Stark when you need him. How about a small fusion generator? Be creative. Think outside the box. Solar panel on your jacket,

    • Battery breakthroughs are reported about once a month and each one is better than the last one with just a little more work to be done before they start to show up changing our lives forever, … but they never quite seem to make it.

      With the enormous profits waiting for any individual or company that can deliver it, there is plenty of incentive to develop one, yet everyone is stumped. That’s a pretty good indication the super battery we’re all waiting for is a lot tougher to make than the proponents of electric vehicles would like to believe.

      • Please consider my first post – there are laws of physics involved
        electrons come with protons and neutrons (i.e. mass)

        battery technology is not improving by leaps and bounds, hype is
        of note : I’m investing isn some battery technology, but not betting on them for motive power

        now, when we get to zero point energy and warp drives …

  35. The best hope(currently) lies in zinc-air batteries. The problem with batteries can be explained with an analogy to fossil fuels…

    Imagine if you were forced to not only carry your fuel in your vehicle, but also the oxidizer required to combust the fuel. Then imagine the “used up” fuel must also be stored in another vessel on your vehicle. Then imagine your fuel had to be stored in a contraption that required lots of heavy metal mixed in with the fuel. this is just what a battery is. The electrolyte can be analogous to carrying around your oxidizer, and the metal plates inside a battery make them extremely heavy and bulky…and the weight and bulk does not diminish as you use it up.

    The zinc-air battery eliminates some of this encumberance.

  36. ” Does it convert the energy from fuel to forward motion more efficiently?”

    Cowpie came closest to answering this question, and the answer is no, due to the conversion of fuel energy from chemical to heat to mechanical to electrical and so on as he stated clearly in his post.

    There is another equally if not more important question to answer and that is: does the machine convert capital cost and depreciation more efficiently? We all know these new E-machines cost more initially, but what is rarely mentioned is the depreciation cost to drive one off the lot. Uncertainty on this is a major impact on the electric car industry and it shows in the market place as “no sale” because the depreciation schedule for a battery-powered car is large. It is large because of uncertainty over battery replacement/disposal costs & uncertainty of the residual value of a used electric vehicle (“ran/charged when parked!”). The market is smart enough to know this, even though it may not be able to verbalize this major issue.

  37. Paul–
    True. As much as I am a proponent of pure electrics, the reality is that we have a long way to go before batteries can match the energy density stored in a tank of gasoline. The many challenges faced by battery researchers point to the huge difficulty of storing all those kilowatts in a small space. Think of the fire that results from a ruptured 20-gallon fuel tank, and translate that kind of damage into electrical energy out of control, and you have an idea of the havoc so much electrical energy can wreak if it gets loose.

    However, I remain optimistic. Hybrids are a good middle ground until battery technology reaches par with gasoline. The main idea here is to conserve energy in a world where fossil energy is finite and often problematic for environmental and/or political reasons. I believe the problems with battery technology will be solved, albeit slowly, but that can work to our advantage by giving the electrical grid and other infrastructure time to be upgraded to accommodate the increased demand. It did so in earlier years when air conditioning became common and placed unprecedented loads on the system, and it can so so again when e-vehicles fill the streets and highways. The argument that it only moves the source of emissions is not valid, as more renewable sources come on line and cleaner means of generation are built. It’s far easier to control emissions at a single source than on millions of vehicles.

    So thank you for keeping the issue before us. Electrics are here with more coming as the technology improves. Nobody laughs at them any more and they are becoming a part of the global conversation on transportation and energy use. Now, if only I could buy a bike with a fusion converter like the one in the Delorean from “Back to the Future” — open the lid, toss in some old banana peels and other trash, and ride away….

    • Good points
      Note that gasoline does not explode
      Well it does in Hollywood, but then that’s “theater”
      Gasoline and air burn very well (not explode) at about 14:1 air/fuel ratio
      Hydrocarbon fuels indeed have the energy density – that’s why they work
      A gallon of gasoline can be encouraged to provide motive power sufficient to cover dozens of miles with slow,metered and controlled release of the potential energy (throttle)
      Batteries “want” to discharge immediately … try hooking up your jumper cables wrong

  38. If you want to sell electric motorcycles all you need to do is reduce the price. I could commute to work every day all week long on a single charge. What I won’t do is pay $40k for an electric bike that for all practical purposes should be less than $12k.

  40. Though I initially started out hesitant about hybrid technology owing to the added complexity and cost that they bring, I’ve got to admit that I’ve really been blown away by what Toyota has been able to accomplish. After 10 years of fence-sitting, we finally picked up a Prius (the newer ‘c’ model), and I simply can’t believe how big of a difference that little 65 lb. battery makes in a 2,500 lb. car: we routinely get 60mpg with 70mpg not being unheard of on the 7 mile downhill stretch to downtown. Is it a performance demon? Hardly, but even my little 400cc Yamaha didn’t get that kind of gas mileage.

    What’s needed is a big-name, reliable manufacturer (think Honda, Yamaha, Harley, etc.) to develop and push out a hybrid motorcycle (and intensely support it!) and I think you’ll start to see a strong shift like we are in the automotive world. Think about it: do you need that 1,200cc engine to push you and your bike down the freeway? No, a 500cc engine would do that nicely. What you need/want a bigger engine for is acceleration and that’s where electrics really shine. You wouldn’t need a big battery unless you’re talking about racing; I think 30 pounds ought to be plenty. Otherwise, 40lb. chain drive electric motor, smaller ICE, 5lb. larger alternator/generator… We’re talking less than 10% weight gain. Complexity? +100% But then again, most all motorcycle electronics these day are already beyond the reach of your old fashioned shadetree mechanic. If you want to stay in this industry, you’re going to need a computer and some electrical skills one way or another..

    PS- I have an electric Vectrix scooter for commuting (in addition to my Aprilia), and nothing beats an electric drive in city driving. Emissions? Powered by hydro and/or the northwest’s overabundant wind (some turbines shut down because we have too much). Rare earth elements? Less than you have in the starter of your motorcycle. Country of origin? Poland; because we in the US are apparently too “old school” to think that modern technologies might be good for us..

    • Talon – The US is home to two electric motorcycle companies – Zero and Brammo

      Brammo is in Oregon and Zero is California.

  42. I think electric is a reality and to think it isn’t, then you haven’t done the research. We had Craig Bramscher of Brammo on the show last week and he spoke about how they are working on battery technology. They have a geared bike for those of us who need gears and a non geared model for those who are just coming into cycling.

    If we look back at the evolution of motorcycles it took a while but after the basics were ironed out they all are based off the same concept. Now is the time to work on electrics which handle like a full size bike but can be used for commuting and around town trips.

    The plus side for those who love off road riding will see the positive side of off road electrics used in suburban areas without restrictions due to polution and noise issues. This may open up a whole new world to todays youngsters to be introduced to cycle riding.

  43. Why batteries? Why not capacitors?

    Up: Fast charge/discharge; lighter weight than battery; range is no longer an issue if recharge takes as much- or less- time than filling a tank..
    Down: Expen$ive (currently); Any short will fry the entire circuit unless otherwise isolated, and all power is lost upon grounding.

    I haven’t seen or heard of anyone trying it, aside from using them as ‘boost’ in an electric go-cart (lithium ion primary power), and I believe the cart was sponsored by a capacitor manufacturer.

    Anyone else seen capacitance put to use in this fashion?

    • You can get more energy from smaller batteries than from capacitors; batteries weigh less for the same energy provided (you may be comparing to lead-acid batteries). Capacitors also do not have as long a life as batteries and a battery can discharge much faster than what a typical motor requires.

      Batteries have come a long way.
      http://www.a123systems.com/solutions-transportation.htm
      (things are moving so fast they need to update their website…)

      -todd