The Kneeslider mailbag is definitely an interesting place to spend a little time, not only do lots of you see things I miss, some of you come up with great ideas. Comments on a number of posts have wondered why all of the new motorcycles are moving upscale. Big bikes, big dollars and sometimes way more motorcycle than you want or need. Suppose there was an expanding range of lower end bikes, starter bikes, basic transportation, starting at the bottom of the usual dealer’s lineup and extending downward. These smaller displacement motorcycles are sold in huge numbers around the world, why not here?
Tom S. wrote in yesterday and his email makes the case very well so I’ll just quote it here:
Who can question American Honda’s model line up when they’re making record profits? I’d love to see Honda start a second brand name here in the USA, though. They could call it something like Hawk Motorcycles by Honda. They’d be separate dealerships from current Honda Powersports dealers, in lower overhead location/buildings, and they’d sell a different, non-competing line up of machines that appeal to different demographics than the folks walking into existing Honda dealers. The network could be supported by American Honda’s infrastructure, but there’d be an understanding that this would be a lower margin venture than selling Goldwings and VTX1800s.
They could pick from the machines Honda already has in production around the world. The right product mix would be critical for success, and I’m not sure what the formula should be, but there are plenty of choices: the Solo 50, Benly 50, Activa 100, Wave 125i, Glamour 125, Nova Sonic 125R, SH150i, NXR150Bros, CBR150R, Eterno 150, CG150, Shadow 200, CBX250 Twister, VTR250, NX 4 Falcon, CB400 Super Four, CBF500, XL650 Transalp, and Deauville 680 come to mind.
US consumers would have an expanded choice of quality motorcycles, and Honda would sell more machines and have more market share. Win-win.
Honda went upscale in their car lineup with Acura, Toyota brought out the Lexus, both of which make sense because their auto dealers already cover the lower reaches of the car market but Honda, especially, has a huge, and I think untapped, low end motorcycle market just waiting for something to buy. Someone could buy one of these “Hawk” brand motorcycles, gain experience riding and if the desire was there and they saved a few dollars they could move up to the regular Honda brand. These “Hawk” brand bikes could be the Hero Honda type of bikes sold in India, small displacement, extremely economical and a nice starter for a 16 year old to buy with his or her own money. Anyone who has never ridden could ride these without the intimidation of 120 horsepower 600s.
Why hasn’t Honda done this already? When you sell loads of bikes, maybe you never ask the question. Perhaps they think it would cannibalize sales of higher end bikes but I think it would actually bring many who would not otherwise ride into a motorcycle dealer. This could work and if they tried it I bet we would soon see thousands of these riding around. What am I missing? Well, Honda, how about it?
mark says
I think many of us who are current motorcyclists would agree that it would be a good idea for Honda (and the other manufacturers) to sell more low-end bikes. Many of us also believe that far more people, especially in cities, should use motorcycles instead of cars to commute. (Personally, I believe that all new drivers should have to spend at least three months on a motorcycle before being allowed to drive a car.)
The problem is that the market for low-end bikes just doesn’t seem to exist in this country. Honda offers a couple of inexpensive, 250cc beginner bikes (the cruiser-style Rebel and the standard Nighthawk), but they don’t seem to sell in very large quantities despite being ideal short-distance commuter bikes.
In this country there’s just too much competition from the automobile. When a decent used motorcycle costs as much as a passable used car (and even an inexpensive new bike costs as much as a good used car), a motorcycle tends not to make sense to the average consumer. Plus, a car is more convenient in bad weather or when something needs to be hauled around. How many of us have a motorcycle as our only motorized transport (I did over the summer, and while it was kind of fun, I’m really glad I’ve got a car again now that there’s snow in the forecast)? In most cases motorcycles are recreational items.
What’s more, those Americans who want to get into motorcycling for more than just economic reasons (in other words, pretty much all of them — even those who cite economic reasons are probably just using that as an excuse) have a certain image of the sport that they’re attracted to. They don’t really want to drop $3-4k on a new 125cc or 250cc machine that they’ll outgrow in a matter of months (and I can’t blame them — I started off on a 350cc bike and wanted something bigger very soon). I’ve read motorcycle reviews in which 750cc-1000cc bikes are referred to as “beginner-friendly.” We live in a culture that worships size — those beginner riders think they should be riding 1800cc V-Twins, not 125cc singles, and they certainly don’t want to “waste” a few grand by buying a “kids bike” first. Right or wrong, that’s how people view it.
I don’t think this is to say that there’s no POTENTIAL market for smaller-displacement bikes, but Honda would need to CREATE the market. It would require a massive marketing campaign (maybe the Big Four could collaborate) to try to convince people that a 250cc bike is indeed a good idea. Number one tactic would be to appeal to the consumer’s wallet — remind him/her that a 250cc bike is more fuel-efficient than the best hybrid car, easier/cheaper to park, cheaper to insure, etc. But it would be an uphill battle that would probably have to include lots of lobbying as well to create downtown motorcycle-only parking, motorcycle lanes, etc. It didn’t work for Segway, despite their best efforts…
I suppose they could try to create a niche market for small-displacement sportbikes. A lightweight, flickable 250cc streetbike could be a lot of fun, especially for urban riders (if Honda built a street-legal replica of their RC166 race bike, I’d save every penny I could to buy one!). A fuel-efficient little mini-streetfighter with good stoplight-to-stoplight acceleration might attract a following.
But generally speaking, I think small-displacement bikes (not counting two-stroke dirt bikes) are just too difficult to sell in this country — which is exactly why everyone stopped offering them. Until a European-style graduated-licensing system is instituted (unlikely, I think) or gas prices hit $5+ per gallon, I doubt this will change.
–mark
Prester John says
I’ve heard this analysis from motorcyclists coming from the traditional paradigm before, and I don’t doubt that the MBAs at American Honda believe the same thing. But if small displacement machines are not selling in the USA, and could only sell if driven by expensive advertising, somebody please get the memo out to Adly, Bajaj, Bandit, Baron, CPI, Daelim, Derbi, Hyosung, Kymco, Malaguti, MZ, Piaggio, PSF, SYM, Tank, TGB, TNG, United Motors and Vento! Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha can get on the playing field in the USA with their modest cost, good quality machines they already have in production in low cost manufacturing countries, or they can sit on the sideline and watch it happen.
BTW – $3K to $4K for a 125? That Hero Honda the Kneeslider posted a picture of sells for well under $1000 in India.
Tom
PS – Oh, how BSA, Norton and Triumph laughed at the small displacement Hondas they saw in the early 1960s…
todd says
Isn’t it funny that the time when motorcycling experienced its fastest growth was back in the 60’s when Honda began marketing 50 – 305cc motorcycles to non motorcyclists. Now that bikes are getting more specialized and much more expensive the market base is shrinking and getting older (older people tend to have more disposable income). The great majority of motorcyclists today are people who first tried out riding a Dream or a trail 90 when they were fresh out of high school.
I’ve been riding bikes since I was 18 and I still like the very capable small capacity motorcycle, in fact this is all I’ve ever owned (except for the R75/5 I picked up for $200). I’ve never felt the need to go over 100 or keep the front wheel off the ground until I got there. Just because I like small bikes doesn’t mean I don’t care for modern technology. Why is it that the ninja 250 doesn’t recieve the same styling, upgraded brakes/ suspension etc. as the big bikes? Maybe it’s because it would probably cost just as much to make as it would the big bike.
Give me more choices! So far the only thing that has appealed to me in the last 15 years or so is a used bike. There’s so many more choices in used bikes.
-todd
doug says
a street version of the RC166 mentioned earlier would be wild…
250 cc in-line 6
a re-introduction of the Honda 400 with swoopy pipes would be good, too.
Could the absence of small bikes be due to scooters having a bigger profit margin than small bikes? Although, dealerships & first-time buyers would probably have better re-sale on a small bike than a scooter.
Dealerships could also use a small bike to convert an otherwise one-time scooter rider into a motorcylist after the trade-in of their small bike. Instead of having them walk-away after being a scooter owner for a limited time, let the dealer sell them a small bike and maybe they will come back and trade-up for a bigger bike….not a new concept
I know not many of us are into cruisers, but there has been a very genuine 14 c.i. cruiser on the pages of CycleWorld. It looks like a fat boy. http://vento.com
I mentioned it here because other small bikes built with the big bike style in mind have a rightful place in the market.
pictures of the in-line 6…
http://world.honda.com/goodwood/machines/rc166/
http://world.honda.com/SEEVERT/racingbikes/09.html
mark says
Tom and Todd, I agree that it would be nice if the Big Four tried once again to market smaller bikes to people who don’t currently ride, as they did in the ’60s. Personally, I’d love to see a resurgence of British-style sporting singles, with retro cafe-racer looks but modern suspension and reliability.
But honestly, how much impact have all those small, relatively unknown brands you list made on the US market? I’ve never even seen one in person, in most of those cases. A couple Piaggio scooters maybe (my original comment refers only to motorcycles, by the way, not to scooters or mopeds — different market segments), and I think MZ could have some success with their 1000cc sportbike, but I’ve never seen any of the others on the road.
As for the Hero Honda selling for under $1k in India, that’s all well and good, but the same bike would probably cost at least $3k here. Part of this would be due to the potential added cost involved in adhering to DOT and EPA regulations; part of it would be distribution/marketing costs; and part would simply be due to the fact that the market here will bear it. It’s hard to find a USED bike (in good/excellent condition) for under $1k. Royal Enfield Bullet 500s sell for well under $2k in India, from what I’ve read, and in the US new ones retail for nearly $5k.
(Another example of how overpriced the US motorcycle market has gotten: I used to have a 1990 Yamaha XT350 enduro bike. Blue book value on it was $500. When you find one on Cycletrader or eBay, it almost invariably costs $2000+, and it’ll actually sell for that amount.)
So I’m right there with you regarding a desire for more choice and cheaper bikes, I’m just skeptical that the market is going to shift anytime soon.
And Doug — I have daydreams about how cool it would be to have a street-legal RC166…
–mark
Dave says
This is an interesting thread and I agree with the comments. I think there is a big gap in what is offered in the U.S. and can’t undestand why four cylinder 250’s and 400’s are not brouhgt in. At del Mar a couple of years ago I asked people form the factory, their comment: ‘no demand’, ‘no market’ and ‘would cost as much as a 600’. However – this is the age of boutique stuff – look at the Ducati Paul Smart, maybe 1000 will be sold. In any case, my hteory is insurance and legislation will clamp down on the 600’s – this will force rethinking.
Kyle says
I think that the mini bikes will come back, but it is only going to be reserved for a select few, that have a real desire to ride a two wheeled machine. Everyone thinks that scooters are fun the first eight seconds that they are on one, then after they have toped out at 35 mph in a straight line for a mile and a half they are bored.
I seemed to have come from a mind set where bigger is always better, untill I saw a buddy of mine ride a five mile wheelie on a Yamaha Zuma. I was dumbfounded and had to try it. Now I seem to ride my new Zuma just as much as my RC51 and my XR650R, and after six months now I to can ride a five mile wheelie on a Zuma, I can roll eighty foot stoppies, and can do circle wheelies (on a moped). I get my best reactions on the Las Vegas strip.
We are not alone, but we are few and far between. I think everyone should own a scooter, just simply for the sense of freedom. The problem is that most people think that they are dorky or stupid looking and then they have already made up their mind before they ride it. People will only stick to what they know. Who knew you could hop up a Zuma and make it capable of seventy mph and have just as much fun on it, as any other bike. There are a few of us scooter racers here in Vegas I wish that some more would come out here and give us some competition. We race through all of the flood control washes, parking lots and the dusty trails. It is a freaking blast and people will never know what they are missing.
Prester John says
I’m not in the motorcycle industry, and accurate numbers can be hard to come by, but Vento seems to have put more units on American streets last year than BMW. I know, you’re a long time motorcycle enthusiast and you’ve never seen one — but many of those new-to-riding Vento customers would be surprised to find out BMW also makes motorcycles!
Tom
Dudel says
The smaller bikes don’t sell well in the US because of highways. In many parts of the country, it is impossible to go from one place to another without doing a short stint at 70-mph. Even your average 30-mph main road is going 45-mph at peak hours.
What’s really needed is a new crop of light-weight mid-sized highway-stable 600cc, 750cc, and 800cc bikes that are fun, punky, and wild… with automatic or semi-auto transmissions [but not scooters]. The Victory Vision-800 comes to mind… but with the Polaris Revolver front-end.
Tom says
I wish they would sale the smaller displacement bikes here in USA. Where I live in our States Capital City a significant percent of people live less than 5 miles from work and could commute on 35 mph roads. It would be nice to be able to buy a motorcycle or scooter with gas prices at $3/gallon and climbing. I like the SH125i by Honda, liquid cooled, fuel injected and over 100 mpg that would work great.
Even if the motorcycle manufacturers would emphasize mpg I’m sure they could come up with motorcycles that would get 80 mpg. One could take them on the interstate, and tour if they wished. Instead we get killer horsepower and 40 mpg. That was fun and crazy when I was younger, but I value my live now, my wallet, and the earths natural resources!
David Wickert says
I’m not sure who is stopping the introduction of small displacement motorcycles into the US marketplace. In California, where I live, it’s the government.
Very few of the small imported Asian bikes can get through state regulatory process. Twist and go scooters seem to have a easier time of it. You see some of those in shops. None of the small motorcycles can be sold here. For example, the mz rt125, which was sold in many states for a few years, would have been a natural for California, but it was never allowed in.
We are also a convenient shipping destination for the motorcycle industries of the pacific rim, of which there are literally hundreds. If some guy could just load up a few hundred 125cc, fuel injected, watercooled commuter bikes into a shipping container and sell them off the docks in Long Beach or San Francisco, don’t you think it already would have been done?
You’d think the nations largest consumer of auto fuel would welcome an influx of 100+ mpg vehicles. Then again, our governor was the buyer of the first privately owned HUMMER, and brags openly about riding his harley, although he could never be bothered to obtain an operators license for it. I guess conservation and legal standards are relative thing.
I live in a suburban area and am lucky enough to work just a few miles away. 90% of my driving is on suface streets without resorting to the freeways. I would gladly pay premium prices for a small , reliable, high tech machine. Over a period of time the amount of gasoline I didn’t use would be significant. Also, riding motorcycles is more fun than driving.
Jason says
Well, I just think that if smaller displacements are cheaper to make, then they should be availiable for the low income person. I am really into those ultra cheap chinese bikes. I have had a few small quality flaws, but overall- its really dependable. I ride 300-400 miles a week and dont even sweat the maitenance expenses. Most of these bikes can have the engines replaced for only a couple hundred dollars or so: so when I do eventually rack up the miles, cost wont be a problem there either.
The fact that Americans want the more expensive bikes just keep the guys like me with modest finances from owning one. And that is really not fair.
Mark Garvey says
I own a Honda CB125S a 1985 model. It is likely the best “motorcycle” I have ever owned! I purchased it used in 1994 from a friend who purchased it in 1987. It was an original MSF training bike at the local community college.
I grew up with Honda and Yamaha 90’s 100’s 125’s 250s and 350s. the Honda 350 was a SUBURB motorcycle in it’s own right! but they have vanished! As has nearly any motorcycle under 600 cc. WHY? My little Honda will haul my 240 lb butt around at 55-60 mph if necessary, but generally never sees the high side of 40! It putters along getting 100 mpg + and costs me $35 a year for insurance! About the only thing CHEAPER to own and operate is my bicycle!
Why won’t Honda import the excellent small bikes to the USA? It is even hard to get PARTS for my 125s
Mark G, IOWA
Josh says
The 100/125cc motorcycles in India are reliable, fast enough to handle any non-freeway road, and best of all cost about 1-2k. I would buy 2 of these if I could, but instead a large number of Americans are content spending at least 7k on a motorcycle. As long as that’s true, why should Honda or any other big motorcycle manufacturer sell these small machines. The profit margin is so much smaller… Honda would have to sell 20+ 100cc bike to make the profit of 1 1800cc bike.