The TT Zero at the Isle of Man was won quite handily by the Motoczysz team, with their E1PC electric racer. Michael Czysz, illustrating what you get when you combine ample budgets and a very capable engineering team, put together a beautiful, high performance racing motorcycle. This is top shelf all the way. Electric motorcycle advocates are slapping each other on the back and smiling because we’re going to be riding bikes like this very soon, … well maybe not REAL soon but in a year or two, … as long as those dramatically improved batteries appear as promised.
Six months ago I wrote that electric motorcycles seem to be one of those forever in the future technologies, where a real, commercially successful, all around e-bike is still a long way off. I thought about the TT Zero results and wondered what had changed. The Motoczysz team showed everyone what e-Racers could and should look like, however, many writers around the print and web world seem to be making a basic mistake, thinking Michael Czysz’s huge success in this race is a great leap ahead for electric motorcycles in general. Without a doubt, electric racing motorcycles have advanced tremendously in one year and the E1pc is testament to that progress, but this does not translate into a design for a commercially successful street bike and the biggest hurdle to street application is, as many of us keep saying, the battery.
Racing is ideally suited for electric power because of the confined environment, batteries are never more than 1 lap away. Hot swap batteries available in the pits make races of considerable distance possible, but I wonder how successful an electric racing series can be over time, if the main draw is the curiosity factor because there is no street motorcycle equivalent to the bikes on the track.
Even electric car advocates are beginning to think in terms of commuter vehicle more than general purpose car, because, by confining usage to shorter round trips in restricted environs, you’re less likely to get into the dead battery in the middle of nowhere scenario or worries of “range anxiety.” With current batteries, we seem to be stuck with vehicles that cost more and deliver less than conventional internal combustion powered alternatives.
It would be great if battery technology makes the leap to a point where capacity and recharge time ceases to be an issue, but, those issues remain. Electric advocates keep believing what they want to happen is what will happen and, eventually, it may, but the time frame promised keeps slipping. This is one issue where I hope I’m proven wrong and the miracle battery appears tomorrow, but all of those “breakthroughs” have yet to materialize. Chances are, the motorcycle of the foreseeable future will continue to be gas powered
Link: Popular Science
Link: Motoczysz
Link: Institution of Engineering and Technology via Autobloggreen
Mule says
I’m dyin’ to know…..how fast did it go????
kneeslider says
New track record- 23:820 (96.820mph avg.)
Fastest sector time- (every sector)
Fastest through Sulby straight- 135mph
Fastest recorded overall top speed- 140+mph
Fastest over the grandstand finish line- 122mph
mark says
Michael Czysz himself mentioned in a recent interview (I think it was on Hell For Leather) that electric motorcycle technology was still so early in its infancy that he didn’t even think it was a very good idea to be having highly-publicized races with it yet. His point was basically that until the technology is commercially viable and capable of competing with gasoline-powered motorcycles, there’s no point in showcasing it because to the average (ie, non-geek) race viewer, it will seem slow and boring compared to today’s highly-developed internal combustion racers. (At the same time, of course, if you want to be a frontrunner in the development of electric motorcycles, you have to participate.) At any rate, it sounded from his interview as though he thinks mass-market electric motorcycles are still quite a long way off for all the reasons that frequently get mentioned on this topic.
It’s interesting hearing such a realistic and down to earth assessment coming from one of the apparent leaders in the field.
Tinman says
The article raps it up pretty well, The dream battery is still not here. If you look at a gallon of Gasoline as an energy storage device,( thats what it is) Gas far outperforms batteries at a much cheaper price. I think a super battery is out there, just like Cold Fusion, a Dream to keep us hanging on while the Government subsidies keep rolling in.
Ian says
“Racing is ideally suited for electric power because of the confined environment, batteries are never more than 1 lap away.”
Very true, but for many using a motorcycle for commuting then the trip to and from work is less arduous than a 96mph lap of the Isle of Man. I live 12 miles from work and average about 50mph (some motorway, some in town). I could quite easily plug the bike in to charge either at the workshop or at home over night. Hell, my RGV250 needed filling up every 80-90 miles so not exactly a massive range there.
Ok the like for like replacement for the R1, ie. capable of 180mph for what? 100+ miles? may be a long way off at the moment but that doesn’t mean all electric bikes aren’t a realistic proposition in the very near future using existing technology.
Cycleguy says
I think a big item that is being overlooked by the major manufacturers of electric cars, are battery recharge stations. The short range of these early electric vehicles wont be as much of an issue if one can easily and quickly recharge your battery pack.
The technology already exists to recharge batteries in under 15 minutes. This would make the electric vehicle a much better option for the mainstream buyer, knowing that range is no longer a deal breaker and they can recharge in only slightly more time than a typical gas fill up.
This is a critical piece to the success of the electric vehicle experiment. How many diesels would be sold if gas stations carrying diesel were few and far between?
Mel Beaty says
Total agreement. Short range in town or to a nearby town seems ideal. Current prices are a deal breaker. I did see a TV show last week that had Perry King, the actor (apparently he’s a bike nut, 28 in his garage) that featured he and two other guys riding electric off-road bikes to two very high passes in Colorado. Only about 150 lbs per bike and no drop off in power as the elevation increases. Neat. However, they did not discuss how long each of the rides were or the theoretical range of the machines. These could be fun but there are no current bushes in the hills so that could mean a long walk back. Mel Beaty.
Random says
Even if range doesn’t increase so much, electric bikes are still the urban commuter dream. No internal motor maintenance (electrics can be sealed) mean there are a lot less nuts and bolts to keep care of. May be not as atractive for the “wrench it myself” guys around here, but for the average biker – me included – no engine oil changes already are an advance.
No less important is that the company you work in might pay your “gas” (electric) bill! 🙂
FREEMAN says
Unless the entire planet runs out of fuel and all fuel substitutes, the fuel powered vehicle isn’t going away. Even if their electric counterparts start to become comparable. Battery technology aside, nothing is getting replaced. The variety is just becoming that much richer.
Kenny says
Very impressive.
Kudos to the Motoczysz team. Keep it up. And I hope to be there to see them next year getting that 100mph £10,000 prize or whoever beats them to it.
Back to the topic of the bike itself. A simply awesome piece of kit. If I had the money I would love to have one in my garage.
Kinda interesting that it took 52 years of racing and development for the 100mph lap average to be acheived with an ICE bike and now 53 years later a EM bike stands just a smidge short of breaking the same mark.
I look forward to more developments so keep up the excellent work Paul.
Tinman says
Kenny, It wasnt lack of power that took 52 years to develope, it was tires, frame and brakes. Items that were ready for the electric bike to use with no development at all. We all are waiting to see the future of Electric Bikes, Its a good time to be alive!!
buellracerx says
agreed, increasing power density and decreasing recharge time while maintaining longevity in batteries is the major hurdle. I’d like to remind you, though, that IOM is not a ‘hot swap’ race, as the races in the ttxgp are also not. Motorcycles have one set of batteries to work from, whatever’s attached when they start. Though the races are shorter, advancement of battery technology is being promoted over the “how big a motor can we fit in it?” ideology.
Tinman, good point with a slight correction. Although much of the technology surrounding frame design is in place, electric motors have different structural requirements from IC engines. It is a great time to be alive to witness all this advancement!
todd says
The Hot-Swap battery is already in use in cars and working fine and allowing infinite range. One such system is in use in Tokyo, called “Better Place” and is an automated process taking all of 2 minutes. They are being used for taxis so far but there’s not much stopping this from gaining ground.
http://www.easyecar.com/better-place-news/better-place-battery-switch-in-tokyo/
-todd
f0ul says
The one thing everyone is missing out here is the benefit to the consumer. There is no benefit to the consumer with electric vehicles, so they are not going to take off!
Think about it for a second. If you want cheap to run, a 50cc / 125cc scooter is pennies to run, so there is no cost savings to electric. Petrol is faster, petrol goes all day, petrol has a wonderful noise and the styles are desirable. Petrol is available everywhere in the world. The only thing that electric has going for it is the self righteous green card – and to tell the truth, in almost all cases, the most self righteous still won’t buy one. They will take public transport, and they just want everyone else to buy one instead!
Find a way to make the electric vehicle more desirable and worthy of purchasing than a petrol equivalent – then you’ll get somewhere!
Maybe if they could be crash proof or something, that could work, but its hardly likely!!
hoyt says
Are batteries & their motorcycles going to be designed so that the battery can be easily removed & carried inside for re-charging? (e.g. living & working in a city/apartment/condo). That would be great, but it prompts the need for locking stations because the GVW without a battery could be light enough to become more theft prone. Electric performance bikes will still have high-end wheels and suspension components.
Granted, this is a minor topic in the whole scheme of things (and i-c bikes still get lifted now). Nonetheless, one must factor this topic into ownership. If an electric bike without its battery weighs less than a comparable i-c bike, thefts will rise. Add locking stations to the macro-level topics such as grid and re-charge station evolutions.
btw…
It is a good time to be alive..this month’s cover story for many moto pubs includes 5 superbikes, none of which are from Japan. Factor in the one from the UK, 4 from Japan, one (hopefully from the States) and you have nearly a dozen excellent motorcycles available worldwide in the performance category alone.
hoyt says
todd – swapping batteries sounds interesting until I get a battery that fails. What happens next? After getting a tow, does the driver/rider take it back to the last swap station and pay for a new one? What if my last battery was brand new, on its first recharge?
FREEMAN says
The popular science article you referenced is very informative. It’s great to see the minds at Motoczysz are thinking a little outside the box. I always wondered why their bike did not finish last year and all I could find was the vague “technical difficulties.” Turns out they had a spike and blew the ECU. The footage of their bike on their site during the IoM race is great. Also of interesting note: thanks to the Motoczysz crew, this year was the second time in the history of the IoM racing that an American bike has won. The first time was on an Indian motorcycle in 1911 at an average speed of 47.63 mph. Hopefully next year Motoczysz will take that 100 mph lap.
pabsyboots says
Well framed you hit the nail on the head Paul
I would further add that as awesome as the czysc is that’s not what commerical bike architecture will look like as the batteries will not not dominate
rohorn says
Then there is the other possibility – that electric racebikes will never have anything to do with the street bike world. There is a huge disconnect between top level Formula car racing and street cars – the same ought to happen to the motorcycle world.
Everyone knows which bike won the IoM electric race. Can you name the rider? Or which bikes won the other classes? Can you even name the other classes? Think sponsors notice that?
One can build a competitive TTXGP bike (from scratch) for less than a competitive Superbike (from consumer product). That was not possible 10 years ago. Think a near ton up lap would have been possible on lead batteries? Yes, there has been progress in the battery area – it is the drop in Li batteries that has made it possible without a government sized budget.
No, I don’t think that amazing battery is around the corner. I’ve read enough breathless prose concerning imminent ultracaps, nanohype, etc.. over the last ?? years to be immune to them. Where things are going to change is the bikes themselves. Just as cars didn’t work to well when they were horseless carriages, electric race bikes will work best when they aren’t gasless motorbikes. That hasn’t happened yet.
The E1pc, in my opinion, is a very nice gasless motorbike.
Chris | Bike EXIF says
Very good point, f0ul:
“The one thing everyone is missing out here is the benefit to the consumer. There is no benefit to the consumer with electric vehicles, so they are not going to take off!”
The only successful electric car—the Toyota Prius—is bought by consumers and corporations simply to let other drivers know they they’re driving an electric vehicle. It’s a fashion statement rather than anything to do with the functionality or dynamics of the vehicle.
Electric motorcycles aren’t even at this fashion statement stage yet. Unless there are government incentives of some sort, we’ll be waiting a long, long time before the public starts to salivate as much as some moto blogs.
Chris
Sportster Mike says
Just had Glasse’s (the car trade bible) here say that any electric car sold here in the UK will be a write off after 5 years (ie worthless) because of the cost of replacement batteries etc. And its very well being green but here in the UK most of our electric power is nuclear sourced!! There needs to be a big jump in battery power, smaller size and regeneration systems for both cars and bikes.
There was a very good looking electric scooter here a few years back that was ideal for commuting but came in at twice the price of a petrol version and half as heavy again.
Incidentally just read that Afghanistan has been surveyed by a US Mining Team and they have discovered lots of mineral resources including another source of lithium!! (for those much needed smaller batteries)
One big jump up required methinks..
greg says
Go Czysz! If this is your dream and you feel you are doing the right thing, keep doin it!
Jay Allen says
I like your label ‘ range anxeity ‘. I live in a bedroom community of an urban area pop. ≈300k. My longest commute to local employment has been 26 mi. one way. This distance x2 is an easy target for electric vehicles, but I think electric scooters will be more ‘fashionable’ than electric motorcyles, and will appeal to the same audience as the current 49cc products coming from china. The prius is not completely electric, so I don’t think it qualifies as anything other that technology development. I hope employers will offer a 120V source to employees that do go this route when it takes off.
Auz1237 says
Once fuel cells technology become cost effective and proven batteries will become redundant
Carlo says
Todd is right SWAP THOSE BATTERIES!!
As I already commented on the other article, it is already developed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe7HKZPpP7M
what happens if you get a bad battery? Well, I guess it’ll be just the same that happens if you get a bad fillup at the gas station,,,
taxman says
“Unless the entire planet runs out of fuel and all fuel substitutes, the fuel powered vehicle isn’t going away.”
nothing ever “goes away”. the horse and buggy is still around but not many people use that for transportation anymore (Amish excluded). when 4 stroke motorcycles were raising in popularity i remember my uncle saying that two strokes would always be more prevalent. the standard will always be what ever has the cheapest $/mile. when gas prices rise again we’ll see a resurgence in battery technology. eventually batteries will become the standard, although maybe not in our lifetime.
the talk is that to cover the cost of the oil troubles in the gulf we’re going to have a national gas tax. that should prompt some research into electric vehicle technology.
hoyt says
a bad gas fillup is less likely (by far) to to not leave you stranded as a bad battery that fails. And, how many times have you got a bad gas fillup? It is possible a battery gets swapped out longer than it should have been passed onto someone. Don’t get me wrong…I like the idea, it needs sorted out.
Swapping batteries might work if there is a meter on each battery that identifies the number of times a battery has been re-charged in order to get a ballpark even trade. This meter could also be used to determine the max. # of times it should be swapped out…but then that could result in batteries sitting around when they could be used that last 1 or 2 times before its official tear-down is required.
rohorn – “Gasless motorbikes” – that is good enough for a separate topic
chris @ Bike Exif – “fashion statement” – agree. The Voltra is the only electric bike that looks good enough to consider. This bike actually has design elements such as the cantilevered seat that would cross-over to gas-powered bikes:
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/11/30/voltra-electric-motorcycle-concept-by-dan-anderson/
Mule says
I think the score is 25 opposed to further creativity and development and 2 are for it. I sorta thought in this day and age that people were getting pretty used to the “Anything is possible with technology” kind of approach to almost everything in our lives. But after reading the comments here, it seems the prevailing argument is that it can’t work, we don’t want it to work, it won’t sell…or if it does work I don’t want one, etc. The “What if you get a bad battery” theory is the topper! What happens if the fuel injection or ECU goes out while you’re on a trip through the midwest on “Any bike currently manufactued”? Think you’ll patch that up on the side of the road? NFW!
This electric bike thing has the same recurring pattern of comments like the “Lets move all our manufacturing to China” topics have their pattern. Major change scares me just like everyone else, but it’s gonna happen and like everything for the past 200 years, it’s happens no matter how much we fight it.
I bet there isn’t one single person that’s commented here (myself included), that has the balls to lap the IOM at 96.820mph on ANY bike, much less a prototype electric bike.
Last year, the winning speed was 87.43mph, this year it was 96.82. Maybe I’m the only one that thinks thats a pretty impressive improvement in just one year. Actually, I’m seriously impressed.
What’s the speed gonna be next year?
I beleive I heard that Toyota has partnered with Tesla on all electric cars and that syas to me that big things are brewing. I’m not gonna fight it. Are we there yet? Hell no. But things are moving pretty quicky so as they say, “Lead, follow or get the hell outta the way”.
Scott says
I think the E1 is a cool bike, but the price is too high, range is too low, performance (while impressive) still doesn’t come close to what ICU’s are capable of, and, because the technology is so new and because untested components are being used, reliability is likely to be poor.
I’m all for pushing the limits and I think this race is a great way to develop bikes until they are ready for prime time . . . but I think it’s going to be quite a while before people are buying bikes like this based on their merits rather than just luxuries that a wealthy few can afford to show off.
jim says
So now we discover Afghanistan has lots of lithium — great, just what we need is another geopolitically difficult energy source. Battery researchers are working toward less problematic materials to make batteries that work, and the buzz is that much higher densities and shorter charging times are not only possible but on the horizon. The same research is pointing the way to higher-efficiency solar cells. When this technology becomes a reality, everything will be in place for true energy-independent vehicles — battery-powered with long ranges and charged by the sun. Mass production will bring the prices down to reasonable levels. The link to Popular Science discourages me a bit because, as much as I love PS and have subscribed since 1964, it tends to be a gee-whiz publication that reports on things that too often never become reality (the magazine has been infected with the flying-car virus for 80 years and hasn’t managed to eradicate it!). But when those solar-charged, battery-powered bikes become available, I’ll be at the dealership with cash in hand.
FREEMAN says
@ taxman: two stroke and four stroke are both fuel powered. Just saying.
todd says
FREEMAN; right, and both have their added benefits depending on application. fOul’s comment hit the nail on the head. Unless electrics vehicles provide a greater benefit to the customer once the Gee Wiz factor is diminished they will flop in the market place. Of course, there’s always the option (in the US at least) of a government mandate. Free market be damned.
-todd
Miles says
I had to chime in. Many live within 10 miles of the shops and school route and spend a portion of their day running around with short trips in stop and go traffic.
For a single person an electric 2-wheeled transport is the answer, for me with 2-3 passengers I would convert a mini-van or small station wagon.
On the subject of battery swap stations and bad batteries. There would need to be a computer built into every pack with per-cell management and abuse guidelines. You could pay what you can afford to use the battery, kind of like premium and racing grade fuel.
You would of course not want to abuse a generic battery, and the abused batteries might be available as the cheapest “may fail” grade, although this is possibly the same problem as a used tire dealer in regards to liability.
Computers cost pennies, it is the software and use/abuse levels that would be expensive to develop. You might want to have some control over this as the consumer, with monitoring of your vehicles use cycles to determine the optimum battery pack for you.
I can see this as becoming a fascinating business, with extra voltage packs and extended discharge or quick discharge packs being vended from a swapping station.
All of these have their place. It is interesting to note that London has put in charge stations, parking spaces, and of course waived the fees they charge to use the city during the day for electric vehicles (presumably bikes as well). For a congested city the electric offers many benefits. The torque and smooth acceleration make stop-and-go less stressful, and the lack of battery drain while not moving makes it so many times more efficient than gas motors. (although quick-start idle-stop systems are proliferating, I recall that possibly Mazda has developed a way of stopping on a cylinder and then firing that cylinder as part of a quick-start system.)
Ian says
Todd wants benefit once the Gee Wiz factor goes away?
How about torque…
Current Yam R1= 85lb/ft @ 10000rpm
Motoczysz E1PC = 250lb/ft @ everywhere (according to a quick Google).
That kind of performance is dream land for an ICE. And it’s only going to get better.
hoyt says
Mule – the point of Paul’s post is about the timeframe for electrics to be commercially viable, not who has the balls to lap the IoM @ x speed.
Less-than-praise commentary on this topic does not suggest everyone is against electrics or resistant to change.
Your “topper” comment was taken out of context. I made the comment in the context of the swapping batteries idea that was presented as a way to get around re-charge times (which is one component directly related to the context of the post).
Commenting about a failed, swapped-out part is different than commenting about an existing part such as your ECU example. It is referring to a part YOU swap that failed as opposed to an original part. A failed original part happens and you accept it. Tell me you would feel the same level of acceptance about the battery (that you just swapped for a relatively new one) fails. And, no, I can’t remember the last time my ECU went out, but I do remember when my battery failed a short while after the bike fell over while parked in loose gravel at a camp site.
commercially viable?
Dan Anderson’s design (with a long-lasting battery & quick re-charge time) would be very successful.
The cool negative space stylishly proclaims “Electric” even from a distance. In that respect, his design is somewhat of a fashion statement.
Combine that look with torque and I’ll take one.
FREEMAN says
@ todd: my original comment was about how electric vehicles are not going to cause ice vehicles to become extinct (which seems to be the line of thought for some), especially since there are many alternative fuels from crude oil that will work in gas and diesel engines. I agree that electric vehicles are starting to mature and become viable means given the right situation. In the end, the majority of people will flock to what’s practical for them regardless of what it is.
hoyt says
“In the end, the majority of people will flock to what’s practical for them regardless of what it is.”
Agreed, but it will be interesting to see how flexible one’s definition of practicality becomes when factoring in other attributes. e.g. will the torque advantages re-adjust the definition of practical? That is, after a bare minimum level of charge longevity and/or re-charge time is achieved.
Cowpieapex says
Most of us will see a day when we struggle to explane to the youngsters in our world how a trembling combustion motor, slobbering petrochemicals, chugging up to speed / power, with the potential of exploding into a shower of oily shrapnel and flaming vapor was logical let alone preferable.
I will admire their swifter more reliable electric bikes, and then fill my bike from a drum of fine old fuel and ride it out to feed my horses.
todd says
Ian, it seems everyone like to (mis)use the “torque” claim. Sure, a spec-sheet comparison looking only at torque shows the higher amount as you suggest for the Czysz. What it doesn’t show is the gear reduction of the R1 yamaha. In first gear the Yamaha has the full potential of 900 lb/ft of torque at the rear wheel. On the Yamaha first gear is good for 70 mph. Based on the fact that a Yamaha R1 has been the first motorcycle to break a 130mph lap on the TT I’d say, without a doubt, that the R1 is more powerful than the MotoCzysz. Not that it matters to me.
-todd
Dallas Rehdnekk says
Seems to be continued thinking with blinders on, this very repetitive and flawed apples to oranges comparisons of ICE to electric powered vehicles. Equal the collective subsidies and give aways to the petroleum industry over the past 100 years toward electric vehicle, component, and infrastructure development, and electrical motor based bikes will quickly be superior in “most” worn out comparison categories to dino burners. Maybe a bit more youthful and open thinking might connect the missing elements sooner than the bell curve of the population will assume. I love watching spaghetti westerns where 90% of travel is on horse back. But I definitely am glad its on wheels these days. Keep a few oil smokers around for nostalgia perhaps. YMMV. 🙂
Chris Y. says
I just had to chime in here, because while electric vehicles aren’t really that popular here in North America yet, they are in other parts of the world. For example, China has over 20 MILLION electric scooters already on the road. They have essentially replaced many bicycles and ALL 50cc scooters etc. for in city use. They are also very popular because they are cheap and citizens only have to plug in while working to recharge- only bad thing is that they have a 32 km/h top speed, but since China has many dedicated bike lanes actually separated from traffic, they work extremely well for day to day tasks.
Meanwhile, a new law in Ontario, Canada allows the use of those same electric scooters, except that they fall under the “bicycle” category. No license, no insurance, just a bike helmet and you are off. Because of that, they are becoming rather popular in metropolitan areas of Ontario as well. Still, it’s a fairly small niche compared to the huge Chinese market, obviously.
Americans might believe they are ahead in this field in terms of commercial proliferation, but the reality is that they are not even close.
Unfortunately, as others said, I don’t think that the concept will work very well right now in North America, except in areas with extremely high population density (downtown cores, etc.). This was evident with what’s happening in Ontario, as they replace some bicycles and 50cc scooters for these areas, but commuting in the surburbs and between cities is still out of the question.
rohorn says
If there is no benefit to consumers for electric vehicles, then why do electric motorcycles outsell gas powered ones by a wide margin – in the RC model market? Yes, they are toys. So are most of the 1:1 scale bikes.
hoyt says
Chris Y. – Where are you getting this impression: “Americans might believe they are ahead in this field in terms of commercial proliferation,…” ?
Because Czysz won the TT?
kneeslider says
It’s interesting that having an opinion that e-bikes are not yet ready for primetime and advances are coming online slower than many anticipated opens a person up to charges of being resistant to change, or worse.
Mule says
Here’s perhaps another angle. We have come to expect ideas to come to market in a tidy package within’ a few months at most . Yes, electricity has been around forever. Ultra lightweight, superb handling, good looking electric bikes that are affordable and come with power supplies capable of long distances more than commuting AND have enviromentally friendly, quickly chargable batteries is somewhat of a tall order even with all the technologies currently out there. So it may take a few years. If someone has the determination and drive to attempt it and follow through with the development, more power to them. They are NOT there yet and I don’t think anyone has said they are. It just happens that they are doing all this development in a fishbowl under the watchful eye of a doubting motorcycle population.
Maybe I give them too much credit and maybe they should just give it all up, give up and just stick to what others before them have done. Why are they taking a chance anyway?
I would bet anyone here a big fat breakfast burrito, that more than one of the big four has a secret program thats developing electric products! May be a while before it goes one way or the other, but I’m sure they aren’t blowin’ off the potential market.
gildas says
Frankly; If I had the space, I’d build one…
People sometimes forget that between the first patent for a the ICE engine as we now use it was in 1854 and we had to wait for 1920’s for car that could be bought for a reasonnable price. That’s nearly 70 years.
Electric engines it’s the same, the GM engine was the first “modern” electric engine that made sense for a normal day to day usage of a car (or a motorbike): “normal” electric engine’s torque tends to fall sharply with revs, are quite heavy, do not have a efficient cooling system, cannot be used for regenerative braking.
Now we finally have engines that have the right performance enveloppe and size factor. So batteries remain as the last weak link. But power density is going up by a few percent every year, and we will reach a tipping point where it will make more and more sense for more people.
Right now it allreaddy makes sense for motocross, and it nearly makes sense for commuting (and if you commute is longer than the Leaf’s range – you’re insane).
That’s my two cents.
jim says
Fifteen years ago, most electric vehicles used lead-acid batteries — century-old technology. Now there are some viable vehicles using lithium-ion batteries (check Tesla). It took internal combustion 30 years and a World War to settle on an accepted standard format. With the increasing speed of technological innovation, we can expect to see all-electric vehicles of all kinds commonly on the streets within the next 10 years. The potential market is staggering; the potential profits are a powerful goad to the automakers and bikemakers to get the product into the showrooms as soon as they are commercially viable.
By the way, 10 years ago I spoke with a pair of fellows racing a battery-powered rail dragster powered by computer-backup batteries; they said the biggest problem was getting all that torque to the ground, from a motor that one man could easily lift. So the arguments over torque are moot. An electric motor is superior in all ways to an internal combustion engine.
hoyt says
“An electric motor is superior in all ways to an internal combustion engine.”
True, then there is the sound and appearance arguments. Total vanity, but the topic is timeframe for commercial viability. Appearance & sound factors a lot into consumer purchases, especially motorcycles (e.g. Ducati & HD).
If batteries can be made small enough, what is going to be interesting in electric motorcycle design is….”Nothing”. Ironically, this nothing/empty space (in place of the gas tank, airbox, & to some degree the engine) will be very stylish in the hands of the right designer.
Until Dan Anderson’s Voltra design came out, I thought electric motos’ aesthetics would be too appliance-like & bland. If the Voltra can incorporate stylish empty space in a small package, imagine the empty space in a cruiser, tourer, or standard where the wheelbases are longer.
Mule says
Nobody is asking us to give up our guns yet! And Hoyt, you’re absolutely right, the styling so far has left a lot to be desired. They all have the appearence of a lab experiment and as they transfer their attention from battery life and function to styling, acceptance will probably improve. They need to perform and then cut the stylists loose on them. Chassis design will mirror what we already are used to.
I had to laugh at the comment about all the Lithium being in Afghanastan. Crap! Just when we thought we’d be free of a hostile power supply! Damn the bad luck. I hope they keep making all the Twinkies here in the USA !
skadamo says
“Electric motorcycle advocates are slapping each other on the back and smiling because we’re going to be riding bikes like this very soon, … well maybe not REAL soon but in a year or two, … as long as those dramatically improved batteries appear as promised.â€
The general consensus seems to target gas level performance by 5 to 10 years out by most conversations I’ve had. Where are you seeing “year or two” promises?
If you have $40K and the means to graft on a head tube, rear shock mount and swingarm you can build the e1pc “very soon”. Czysz should deliver in a year or so I would guess?
http://www.motoczysz.com/main.php?area=edd_overview
Price:
Complete Electrical D1g1tal Dr1ve System W/ 10kWh ESS $42,500*
(motor, controller, suitcase chassis, 8 battery packs)
Complete Electrical D1g1tal Dr1ve System W/O ESS $24,500
(motor, controller, suitcase chassis)
Contact sales@motoczysz.com to order.
* Fill the Grid: $32,500
In an effort to support and assist electric racing around the world, MotoCzysz and their partners have developed the “Fill the Grid†program. The first 15 teams to purchase an eDD systems for competition will receive a $10,000 MotoCzysz sponsorship. The sponsorship reduces the cost of the complete eDD system to $32,500. We believe in and support electric solutions as a way to preserve what is very important to us- RACING.
T-Ray says
Interesting. Paul, I love your guts but have you forgotten your own commandment of optimism? I tend to agree with Mule, let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I am curious though…does your link to Climategate indicate that you are unconvinced by the IPCC?
Not trying to start a flamewar, everyone has a right to their opinion.
gildas says
I did a rougth estimate of a TT 1000cc bike going full poke, and it’s range:
Tank: 18L, race fuel usage 20L/100Km (that’s a low ball): That’s 90km.
Length of Isle of Man TT: 75.46miles or 121.4Km…
So do TT bike have non standard fuel tanks or must do they do pit stop? But I could have put my foot in my mouth…
Chris Y. says
@ Hoyt: You only need to see American companies like Tesla, and for that matter all the enviro-hippies in California to see where I’m coming from.
Btw (since I also saw that company mentioned in some comments), Tesla probably shouldn’t be used as a model of electric commercialization- the company has only turned ONE profitable quarter in its entire lifetime, had trouble engineering a two speed transmission and the company and the founder are, at the moment, broke. Their IPO filing and plans are hilarious.
In any case, as was mentioned several times by several commenters (and the article), the battery is the main thing holding development back. Battery cars have been tested since the turn of the (last) century (http://jalopnik.com/5564999/the-failed-electric-car-of-henry-ford-and-thomas-edison), and even then, as it is now, battery technology has always been the main hurdle, and has never been solved. This has been the case for over a century.
Paul B says
I personally think (maybe hope) the most interesting thing that may arise from trying to get electric motors going will be some serious improvements in aerodynamic efficiency. If your power is limited then it seems to me to be the best way to go, as your power requirement goes up with the square of your speed. The drag coefficient of motorbikes is generally pretty dire, with some innovative thinking about bike layout without the restriction of an ICE (e.g. getting your legs out of the wind and reducing frontal area) it could make up for the power deficiency and start making these things more viable even with the poor energy density of current battery technology.
kneeslider says
T-Ray, trying to bring some of the breathless hype back down to earth doesn’t mean I am not optimistic. I applaud Motoczysz and the electric racer they’ve built, but even Michael Czysz thinks a commercial street bike is down the road a ways.
skadamo, I already wrote about the drive system from Motoczysz but it, as I said before, is for racers, not street bikes.
Sometimes I think the best publicity for electric street bikes would be none at all, the engineers and designers could work on their project and then show everyone what it does when they’ve built it, instead of talking about what it will do at some indeterminate date in the future. It’s a lot more objective to evaluate a bike that can be ridden and measured than it is to compare what one or another e-bike will do according to goals and projections. Showing concept e-bikes and designs is one thing, predicting performance figures and build dates for those concepts based on brand new technology that hasn’t been deployed yet, is something else entirely.
The latest technology is now using carbon nanotubes in lithium batteries. That may be the breakthrough that makes e-vehicles fulfill their promise, … or not. I hope one of these developments works as advertised and gets these cars and bikes on the road in mass numbers, of course we then have to build the infrastructure to support them, another issue in itself.
I like the promise of electric motorcycles, it’s nice to imagine having the option of choosing one in place of an ICE bike for any riding you wanted to do, perhaps some time in the future, we’ll be able to do just that.
jim says
Speaking on the pace of technological change, the newest iphones that customers are lining up to buy (even paying scalpers for a spot in line!) finally allow video-phone conversations. When I was in 2nd grade long, long ago, our “Weekly Reader” reported on TV-based telephones that allowed users to see each other and talk in real time. Wow — it only took 50 years to make that technology commercially viable. I sure hope the current efforts to develop battery technology for vehicles doesn’t lag that badly. Carbon nanotubes show real promise, though. More is being learned all the time.
Regarding hoyt’s comments about the esthetics of ICE as opposed to electrics, take a look at any crotch rocket with enclosed bodywork. You can hide anything in there and nobody would be the wiser. I am old-school in that I like to see the engine and other mechanical bits in the open — I ride a ’72 BSA B50 — but let’s face it, we’re a dying breed. Future customers are the ones buying those iphones; they don’t care what’s inside as long as it works and the package pleases them. Electric bikes will enclose the batteries and motors inside attractive bodywork that only hint at what’s going on inside.
Kenny says
Check out this video of a presentation at the TT by some of the teams.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUPscwmfQPQ&feature=related
The notion of being able to upgrade your bike from say 500cc level power output to a 1000cc by swapping out the motor and maybe a few ancillary parts but being able to keep the rest of your bike and perhaps upgrade suspension and brakes seperately.
A modular construction would be a very interesting new path for development.
A company could design a base model and instead of developing a new model every 2-3 years they could develop new components to fit the original frame. Then buy that new carbon fibre frame or Ohlins shock, swap out the motor, upgrade to the ver. 4.0 batteries.
Stop nay-saying and complaining about the batteries or fuel cells, lack of range and price. They WILL come into their own eventually. If that is because they become entirely superior to ICE or if the day comes that you’ll have a choice of paying $50+ for a tankful of exxons finest or trading it for a 200 mile approximate range plus recharge time for a couple of bucks, doesn’t make much difference.
The technology will come into its own when it makes economic sense. Look around, that date isn’t too far off. Electric vehicles are already infiltrating the market. They wouldn’t be there if they didn’t have some advantage over their fossil fueled brethren.
Chris Y. says
FYI, Motocysz actually had bodywork to go over those batteries for the Isle of Man TT, but the problem was that it was stuck somewhere in customs… hence, it’s “naked” with massive rows of batteries. It might have done even better had it had fairings to go over everything.
Because progress in battery tech is still slow, right now the only way to maximize battery life and range is to reduce the draw and power rating of the motor, reduce weight, and focus on aerodynamics. Putting it this way: Those 20 million Chinese scooters I mentioned before use small Nickel Metal-Hydride or even lead-acid batteries, yet they have a nearly 100 km range (or even more depending on the number of batteries you’re carrying). This is because those scooters are light (more like bicycles), and they have a very small motor and are speed limited to 20 mph / 32 kmph. The benefit at the same time is that those scooters are cheap as hell. But if you want to go faster, or if you want to go farther, or if you want to keep things cheap, things become much harder. Making the bikes lighter and more aerodynamic would help with range and speed if that’s what you’re after, but this will make the bike more expensive. Everything is a compromise.
The difficulty right now is that you can only choose between 2 of the 3 options when it comes to electric bikes: Power, Range, Price. You’d have to sacrifice one to get the other two, and it’ll likely always be a problem with these bikes.
hoyt says
Chris Y – still don’t see any correlation between “Americans might believe they are ahead in this field in terms of commercial proliferation” and your example of Tesla.
Companies pursuing the electric vehicle market does not constitute an “American attitude” of thinking we’re ahead in the field. Cite examples.
Tesla is a good example that contradicts your 1st line. Why would anyone in Tesla think they are commercially viable when selling at their price? Even if they did have that attitude, how does that justify your generalized comment about “Americans” as a whole?
Brammo is a good example of pursuing excellence in this field. They are made in Oregon (probably by some hippies and non-hippies), and have done quite a bit in contributing to “commercial proliferation” of ebikes, considering the state of manufacturing in North America. Their bike is largely made of recycled material, too. An admirable effort with no attitude attached as far as I can tell. Does the recycled material exist in the Chinese models you mentioned?
Jim – agree completely about your crotch rocket example which is why Dan’s Voltra concept is a huge help in not only accepting performance electric bikes commercially, but actually wanting one. The ironic and clever “nothing” design emphasis helps combat the moto ownership experience from becoming too appliance-like.
here’s more: http://ridethetorquecurve.blogspot.com/2009/02/electric-motorcycle-buzz-from-mission.html
Ola says
Gildas:
The Snefaell Mountain Course (which is what the Isle of Man-course is called) is roughtly 37 miles so refueling is not necessary for ICE bikes. Your point about fuel consumption is interesting though. Fuel consumption of an ICE is incredibly poor at wide open throttle.
Chris R says
If we use the energy(yes, we are using fossel fuels to create energy) we are using to charge batteries and use it to produce Hydrogen for a fuel source, I beleive it would be more efficent and better performing hydrogen burning power plant than electric motors. Much time and effort has been used to try to use battery power electric motors, but the efficency factor is poor at best. I believe we need to start channeling our resources to other fuel sources and let battery power be used for other less demanding tasks (ie cellphones, computers, etc.).
Chris Y. says
@ Hoyt: Point taken. Our attitude at the moment seems to involve the BELIEF that we are ahead or at least ambitious and technologically advanced, but in the case of companies like Tesla and numerous other failed startups, actually suffer from delusions of grandeur. Check out the 60 or so comments above. People are arguing about how far off the technology is for viable e-bikes, the advantages and disadvantages of e-bikes, how long it will take for something to enter the marketplace, placing bets on different technological breakthroughs, etc. While electric vehicle usage en masse in the US is seen as a sort of dream-verging-on-reality, they have ignored (or are ignorant to) the fact that other countries, including China and Canada, have already had practical electric vehicles on roads, in constant use, for years now and are way ahead of the curve (that curve being ultimately, widespread use and social acceptance of electric vehicles). If someone had mentioned that there are already over 20 million e-bikes used daily in a communist country where, according to American perception is full of miserable people who squat in mud all day, how many Americans would actually believe it?
And yeah, these bikes might not use lithium batteries or advanced composite materials, but they are actually engineered and built the smartest way possible: Simple designs for simple manufacturing, using existing technologies to be as cheap and reliable as possible, designed with a high level of practicality and usability, and priced so that everyone can afford one. That might be the most “advanced” way to do things, rather than fantasizing -and waiting- on technology like carbon nanotubes to mature enough to be commercial viable for use in a niche $200,000 electric sports car it’s inevitably going to end up in.
Anyways, considering Tesla is one of the few companies in the US (and quite high profile) in the design and manufacture of electric vehicles, I think they’re pretty representative of the state of the electric industry in the US. If Tesla fails, it’s going to have ramifications across the entire electric vehicle industry, at least partially setting back further new startups. Past history in electric vehicle startups don’t exactly favor us either…
I do agree that Brammo probably should have been a better example though, and I do like the Enertia. Thank you for pointing that out to me.
Steel is the most recycled material in the world (Something like 97% recycle rate?), so yeah, I suppose those bikes in China are made with “recycled materials”? I don’t know how that’s really relevant compared to providing cheap, clean transportation to over 20 million owners (and their passengers) in a country that has an issue with population density, pollution and in the middle of an industrial revolution. It’s pretty scary when you think that within a decade the number of electric bikes on the roads in China and across Asia will probably rival the entire population of… I dunno, Canada at 35 million? Of course, that is partially due to the communist party’s push for leadership in electric vehicles, so I guess you can say it’s an “attitude” with results (nevermind the political stuff).
SteveD says
Scientific American had an interesting article/map in the July 2010 issue.. It displayed in what areas of the US driving an electric car would result in more greenhouse emissions than an ICE due to the way the electricity is produced, e.g., coal. Obviously this could change, but it’s still displays some current data about a subject about which many simply speculate.
Hugo says
If you want to read something interesting about Tesla, then read this:
http://www.retailroadshow.com/sys/docView.asp?i=912
An good quote from that is: “We have a history of losses and we expect significant increases in our costs and expenses to result in continuing losses for at least the foreseeable future.”
It shows that producing and designing electric vehicles is a difficult business and for sure the next years will show a lot of interesting developments but don’t get your hopes too high of riding a Motoczysz replica on the street for a “normal” price…there is still a lot to do (especially in the battery development) and that will take some years so that prices go down enough to make it competitive with ICE vehicles.
Czysz has shown what can be done and hopefully that will “spin-off” and trigger a lot of other interesting design for electric motorcycles.
If I see what Agni made with a budget of apparantly 100.000 dollars (a GSXR with a big ugly box in the existing frame) then there must be another way to do it.
Czysz showed that the whole concept of an electric motorcycle must be thought over and not take an ICE motorcycle and “convert” it to an electric motorcycle.
Because there is no ICE engine it would (theoratically) be “easier” to find the optimal CoG location together with allmost all the mass (meaning batteries) centered around the CoG to minimize intertia meaning such a bike actually rides better then an ICE powered bike; that is the challenge! Try and make an electric motorcycle which handles better and is easier to ride hard while at the same time the designer/stylists need to think about new aesthetics for an electric powered motorcycle.
Part of the current magic of ICE motorcycle is the technical aestheticization (as I like to call it) of all technical parts making bikes like the MV appear gorgeous and the trick is to make electric motorcycles have the same “aura”; not like for instance KTM did (in making the electric motor look like an ICE) but have it’s own aesthetics.
Again Czysz did a good job here altough it looks very “product” design in that case and not really motorcycle design (I’m talking about the batteries/technnique here, not the appearance of the bike) so there is still a lot to be discovered…
Ian says
Brammo are a great example of restraint. They haven’t tried to do it all at once, releasing to a few states at first and growing slowly in a controlled fashion. The likes of Vectrix (and possibly Tesla if they’re not careful) went down the pan because they over spent in the early days. They had huge stands at the European shows, expensive bullshit concept bikes and no products to sell. After a few years when things were starting to sway their way and people were talking electric, Vectrix’s technology was already out of date.
I have no idea if Brammo are turning much of a profit yet, but they are selling what appears to be a decent, functioning, good looking product. Ok it’s expensive for what it is- $8k for what is bearly comparable to a 125cc is too much for most but that’s new tech. A Blu-ray player was a thousand bucks not so long ago.
As more get built then prices should come down. If it were just the bike industry then I’d be inclined to agree it’s going nowhere. But with the automotive giants looking into electric technology, along with the mobile consumer electronics industry then energy storage should develop more quickly than it has in the past. Even just 10 years ago few people had mobile phones and laptops, now they are the norm and people are expecting, and demanding more.
Les says
From this consumers standpoint I think i’ll hold onto my 600 i4 ‘naked’ on the street, however, i’d consider trading my offroad thumper for a ‘lectric due to some clear advantages.
Far less noise which translates to far less complaints and perhaps a reduction in ‘no dirtbikes!’ signs all over the trails here.
Less moving parts which translates to less maintenance. These modern dirtbikes require rebuilds often.
It’s just power storage (range) that has me stalled… and a complete lack of money to spend on one 😉
I’ll be a happy boy when electric vehicles are the majority on the road, even if I don’t use one, just for the reduction in exhaust fumes i suck up in this cities traffic on my bike. (ignoring overall environment issues and arguments here)
gildas says
Full poke a 1000cc bike just does two laps…
Full poke a Electric bike does 1 lap…
The exact range of the TT Ice bikes is a secret (it’s valuable info on how the bike performs)…
So a Electric bike still is (in my book) at 50% of the powerdensity it needs to be to make exiting racing (and I’m sorry if I ain’t doing no high nay sayin’ or blind advocacy like some other poster – I like simple) and thus, a good road bike (like ICE had to be faster than a horse, and fuel more available than straw, before it started really selling).
So if we assume power density increasing by 6% a year (that’s reasonnable) we are 12 years from bikes that can do 2 laps of the TT at full poke – and by extension – have comparable range to a ICE 1000cc bike of similar performance (I assume the electric engines will improve faster than ICE, new tech does that).
If we bump the power density to 8% a year, we are 9 years from that.
In any case, it ain’t next year, nor the year after, so go ahead and buy a M1, CBR1000 or whatever makes you hard, you have a few years before an electric bike could make it feel old.
G
Bart says
@ Chris R: Think of hydrogen not as a fuel source, but as an energy transmitting medium (like electricity). H2 is not a fuel source because all of it has to be manufactured from some other fuel source, typically either water (burnt hydrogen) or H2 stripped from a hydrocarbon. The reaction path & waste heat evolved to “unburn” hydrogen, then compress it or supercool it to liquid, then to burn it again is no better than mining oil or gas and burning it.
H2 is not a fuel source, it is an energy transmission media most like electricity in wires: transient. And being the smallest molecule around, it can be a real hassle to keep inside a bottle!
hoyt says
Chris Y – good points. Thanks for taking the time.
I pointed out the recyclable content of Brammo because what better time to improve on manufacturing of raw materials than now? Their decision to go that route is great. There is enough “stuff” laying around that can be re-worked into “new raw” material. We should expect that type of thinking when talking about the #’s of vehicles China & the rest of the world continue to manufacture.
SteveD – thanks for the tip about that article. That type of examination is applicable and necessary for other places such as China. Serves a reminder as to how large of a challenge (micro & macro level) the energy paradigm is to improve. History will look back to see how well the human race was able to work independently at it and collectively.
Mule – you made a comment that the Big 4 are most likely working on an electric. I would hope so, indirect or direct effort, but how many are also looking at biofuels such as algae as a means to continue ICE ? There’s a long way to go for them too.
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/55665/title/Algae_as_biofuel_still_rough_around_the_edges
Runnin' Blue says
I’ve done considerable research on electric assisted bicycles, the best forum I have seen for electric powered vehicles is at
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/
There is a poster there who is doing some incredible things with RC plane electric motors (the lightest and most efficient available to the general public) on bicycles..
Here is a walkaround video of one of his creations..
http://www.youtube.com/v/N2sSgJ3QUDQ
A ride video of the same bike..
http://www.youtube.com/v/DtcTYmI5tfA
And the thread detailing his build process, he sold the bike for a good profit shortly after he finished building it.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=9534
hoyt says
Those are good links Runnin’Blue. I had to laugh at the :48 slot at the sound of a heavy cruiser going by. That would have been a good race
Azzy says
Here is something else to consider… How many of you bought a smaller bike, and sold it, and worked up the chain to some of the nicer and priceier examples out there.
Check out this article. Its about electric cars, but I would think the same applies to bikes.
http://www.nytimes.com/external/gigaom/2010/06/25/25gigaom-depreciation-looming-roadblock-for-electric-cars-4537.html
hoyt says
Are all of the batteries working simultaneously in electric vehicles? Or are 1 or 2 batteries strong enough to power the electric motor while the other batteries stand-by and seamlessly kick-on when the 1st battery reaches the end of its charge?
This could be a continuous rotation if the spent battery gets re-charged while the vehicle is still in motion (e.g. long roadtrip). Nothing more than a hi-tech version of the old bicycle lights being charged by the rotating tire. Obviously the drag would be on another level and the batteries wouldn’t re-charge off of the actual tire.
Would the efficiency loss in a setup like this still be ahead of the efficiency losses in even the most efficient ICE? I guess it depends on the battery’s ability to get re-charged on the least amount of drag possible and hold the charge…
Pamberjack says
It’s 10 years away AT LEAST…
NewAge says
I for one am not waiting, I accept my current home builts range of 6 miles on lead acid, it gets me to the market and home daily and easily keeps up with the flow of traffic.
It’s the best 6 miles of my day 😀