There are some stunning designs and examples of great engineering among the electric motorcycles we’ve seen over the past few years, everything to indicate the electric motorcycle is just around the corner. Brammo is on sale in Best Buy, the Zero X and Quantya are dueling it out on the dirt and the TTXGP grew quickly, in just one year, into an event filled with more competitors than even the organizers had hoped for. We’re almost there, we’ll soon see them everywhere, just a few loose ends and the promise of electric bikes will be fulfilled, … real soon, as soon as those batteries last longer, … and charge faster, … and cost less, … and don’t weigh as much, … or maybe, just possibly, they’re still quite a ways off.
The engineering expertise available today made short work of the obvious, designs began to make the bikes look good, powerful electric motors were built, the suspension is just adapted from standard models, nothing unusual there, it’s those pesky batteries. We need a small, light, fast charging, long lasting battery with big capacity. That, definitely, is not one of those easy parts, that’s a real head scratcher and, though there is a huge reward waiting for anyone who can design one, we’re just not there yet, which, itself, tells us a lot. Anyone who takes a cursory look at electric vehicles quickly sees the potential and monetary windfall waiting and still, no battery that takes the performance leap has been developed.
If we ignore the battery issue, there’s the performance, that will surely win everyone over. Just consider how much torque is available to accelerate these bikes, look at the Killacycle drag bike, running the quarter mile in 7 seconds, Mission Motors gets the Mission One over 150 mph, but this only shows you can use a lot of electricity in short bursts to go fast. Although these feats are impressive, it won’t drive sales for electric street bikes. The average motorcycle buyer may like to see that sort of performance, but he wants to ride longer distances and not trade all of the distance just to show he can go really fast for a mile or two.
Adding a bit of the bizarre to the electric motorcycle scene, we’ve already had a split in the racing organizations. Before we get one functioning electric racing series off the ground, the FIM decides to jump in and form a competing series because they don’t want to be left behind when electric motorcycles take off. Has anyone told these folks we haven’t had a real race yet? There’s been much talk and lots of promise, the TTXGP had some bikes racing in a timed competition, but no actual side by side road races around a track. The differences between the various competitors in the TTXGP was considerable, too, there were no relatively equal bikes that could have actually raced. We now have competing electric race organizations before we have competitive bikes, interesting. I do think racing may be one place where electrics can succeed since the environment is confined and controlled and battery charging or replacement is, at most, just one lap away, but that remains to be seen.
Many of us look at electric motorcycles from a purely practical point of view, but, proponents keep offering the qualifier “carbon free” to excuse the shortcomings. It’s right on the home page of companies selling them and the TTXGP itself was founded as a carbon free race. Carbon free is beginning to sound more like an excuse than a plus because electric motorcycles, with all of the time, money, effort and tax credits thrown their direction, still don’t perform like a bike you or I would ride on a daily basis without constantly modifying our riding habits to make sure we don’t deplete the batteries at an inappropriate time. Forget “carbon free.” The best way for electric motorcycle enthusiasts to promote their carbon free bikes is to offer a “no excuse necessary” electric motorcycle.
Someone may show up tomorrow with a breakthrough battery and make all of these points moot, but, then again, it may be many years before that happens and, judging by the “almost here” rhetoric we’ve heard thus far, I’m beginning to suspect it may be later rather than sooner. Manufacturers of both motorcycles and cars are beginning to, or soon will, release electric versions of their products and a core group of supporters will certainly buy them, but those of us less interested in showing our green credentials and, who instead, just want a motorcycle or car for what it can do, will probably wait.
I look forward to seeing the electric motorcycle we can interchange with one of our current rides and get the same price, performance and practicality we have right now, but I think that future is a little further off than just around the next corner.
Matthew says
If I may channel Jay Leno for a second: “Obviously, the last days of an old technology are always better than the first days of the new. The final steam cars, like the Doble, which would get a head of steam up in less than half a minute, were better than the first gas ones. Eventually, we’ll get there.” (http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302886.html)
Currently I haven’t found a hybrid/alternative/electric/carbon-free vehicle that doesn’t suck hard in some marked, serious way. Prius’ suck, the Zero sucks and even the Tesla… boy howdy, go drive one (I have) and tell me they don’t suck.
But that _not_bad_. Think of where gas powered vehicles were 10 years in to their lives, the way all these treehugger, eco mobiles are now? It will take time.
If we want these new technologies to eventually get good we need to accept that, currently, they blow donkey balls. You don’t have to make excuses, you don’t have to say “but it’s carbon neutral!”. Let them suck in all their glory because, eventually, they won’t suck.
Don’t make excuses for your electric bike, let it be what it is: a first-generation electric bike that sucks.
You are not Usain Bolt, but do you have to make excuses as to why you can’t do a sub-10-second 100 meters? No, you just _accept_ that you are not that guy and get on with your life. Same applies here.
Mel Beaty says
Carbon free my aging rear end. No part of an electric motorcycle is free of that nasty old carbon cloud. Both in the manufacture and fueling. About (I think) 80% of the electric power generated in the US comes from consuming fuels to generate the power. From a personal use standpoint, you’re just keeping your carbon footprint out of your sight but not someone elses. I read once that everything that makes our civilization work is either cut down, dug out of the ground or pumped out of the ground. I really don’t forsee that changing in the remainder of my life. Barring a large breakthrough in battery or fuel cell tech, electric bikes are going to be an expensive toy for some time to come.
steve parker says
Electric motorcycles may be green and easier to maintain. But I love being a gear head. I love to tear my bike apart and put it back together again. I love being able to customize it and add high performance parts. When I look at the electric motorcycles out there, I think how much can you do to customize them. There are no bolt on engine parts, bore out kits, ect… I love the sound of the internal combustion engine. I love changing gears. It will be gone with the electric. I can already go 160+ on my current bike, do I really need more torque and top speed; not for the average rider. In the future if they run out of gas, Ill just make a still and run my bike on alcohol!
Brian Sheridan says
Even though I am a combustion engine designer, I had the good luck to work on 2 electric products that did go to production. One was as electric lawn mower, and the other was an electric outboard. Neither was a better product than the gas version. Both suffered from the same thing that all the bikes do, user time / per charge / per battery cost. All products that go into the market place have to cost so much to build, and have a certain high level that they can be sold effectively at. Batteries that really work are very expensive, and it will take very high production levels across many product lines to bring the price down. The only place the electric mower worked well was in England where they have very, very small lawns. The outboard would only run for 1/2 hour at WOT, that’s not very far out on the lake, and the boat was 300 lb’s heavier because of the batteries. In closing, no one should ever use the word Battery & Green in the same sentence, can we all spell the word ” COAL”. I have also worked on ethanol projects, but let’s not even go there.
Brian
matt g says
This ties in to an earlier blog where you were talking about “what’s good enough”. Nobody should be driving 150mph on a public road way, or doing a wheelie, or making babies cry with their loud pipes or other stupid things “motocyclists” NEED do with their bikes. Bikes are beautiful and beautifully efficient so current electric bikes are perfectly able commuters- except of course for their boutique prices. Motorized transport isn’t green- ride a bicycle. Both are pretty useless when it’s 40 below zero like it is today 🙂
Brian – by “coal” you are referencing coal powered electric plants?
pabsy says
kneeslider
that was a truly awesome post spot on
cut the bull cut the politics and ideology cut the green claims (their not green)
lets jus seem em work ! and we will when the battery improves 10 fold
amen
Auz1237 says
There are currently no electric vechicles on the market that are “carbon neutral” when they get there power from a plug in the wall that comes from the power grid. True you could plug them into a solar panel or wind turbine and then you have something. Unfortunately until the energy density of current battery technology is improved it is going to be tough. However just one of the rays of hope (amongst others) for the future is fuel cell technology, with this technology you can refuel as quickly as you would with conventional gasoline, energy density is almost comparable, and the only emission is water, and a battery is not needed. I predict that very quickly the issue with current battery technology limitations will go away because batteries will be replaced with other technologies which will make them redundant, and then the “electric” everything will become possible.
Paul says
@Steve: Im the same as you and constantly work on my bike but i also love electronic projects and i think electric bikes will be the same with people modifying them, just in different ways. Instead of fitting a power commander you change the motor controller for example. And you can still modify the chassis and looks in exactly the same way as an IC bike. Plus you can already buy performance upgrades for bikes like the Quantya with uprated stators and electrics that can give you 30% more torque.
I have a feeling that electric bikes will have their breakthrough in the same way most inventions do. With very clever people working at home in garden sheds or on industrial estates for the love of it and not financial gain. There are plenty of great looking designs coming from amateurs and i have no doubt that within the next few years we will start to see performance to worry the petrol bikes.
Carlo says
everybody is complaining about autonomy and chargin times when it comes to car/bike batteries,,, can’t believe people have never thought about SWAPPING A DEAD BATTERY FOR A CHARGED ONE. Think of battery stations instead of gas stations. 2 or 3 common, standardized battery models [in different sizes perhaps] for cars and 2 or 3 for bikes and we’re done. Or am I missing something?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe7HKZPpP7M
Ant says
This may be the solution to the battery problem this article talks about…
http://www.gizmag.com/paper-battery-nanotechnology/13537/
bkowal says
The link to Jay Leno that Matthew posted says it all. Jays’ electric car is 100 years old and has pretty much the same range as current electric cars (pun intended). People talk about electric cars/bikes like they are something new, but they have been evolving along with the ICE engines we know and love. Every now and then they appear to be reinvented with some newer technology, but if you look at the historical record so far, the evolution of the electric vehicle is pretty pathetic. It is all about the batteries and they are nowhere near being good enough for prime time. I agree with kneeslider, that practical electric vehicles will always be 10+ years in the future.
People (including me) want practical electric vehicles, but all this wishing does nothing to change the fact that they just don’t work.
SteveD says
Of course, most of the carbon-clean sources (wind, wave, nuclear, solar) produce energy in the form of electricity. As we use more of these, we will need electric vehicles to take advantage of it. One possibility is hydrogen fuel cells as a power source. The idea is that H2 is not a fuel but an energy storage medium. All current gas stations have electricity. When you pull in and attach the hose, electricity is used to break-up water into H2 and O2. The advantage is that batteries still take a while to charge, when this method is on par with filling up a car with gasoline.
Tin Man 2 says
Maybe we expect to much from a battery bike. From what I read Electric Bikes work fine for many commuters right now. I think the city is the natural habitat for electric vehicles, That is where the pollution problems are greatest so the transfer of pollution out of the citys to rural power plants starts to make sense. As energy prices continue to climb people may well start living closer to their work, A 40 mile range may be enough for most owners. Maybe we (the enthusiest) are the Dinosours here, The days of a Sunday ride for the thrill of it may be at risk.
Chris Robson says
If we are serious about an electric bike, let’s make it nuk powered. Get your own generator and be powered up for the next 30 years. The only down side would be an accident…
Seriously, an electric bike would have to make riding fun for even those communting by bike, and save enough make it pay to take the “real” Motorcycle out on weekends.
Hawk says
There is much validity in the arguments about electric vehicles being “green”. “Alternative fuel” vehicles as well because as SteveD mentioned, if the energy used to charge the batteries or to produce the fuel comes from other than a nuclear (and this includes “Sun driven”) sources, we are simply dealing with a different form of IC engine.
However, perhaps we should stop and think about “risk” here. In my area (BC, Canada) liability insurance is the sole domain of the Insurance Company of BC, or Ikky-bikky as it is affectionately known. Electric bicycles are not licensed and are not insurable for public liability. They require no driver’s license either. A moped of less than 50cc requires only a basic automobile license and the probability of crash rate of these totally untrained riders out there “playing in traffic” is astronomical. When they crash into another vehicle, the property damage claims are paid out of the “motorcycle” account under the “under-insured motorist” funds. (Guess who’s premiums go up!) If one hits you and does bodily injury, your recourse is to sue the rider …. and hope that he/she has some assets. This is somewhat the same as being hit by someone in an electric wheelchair ….. your chances of getting a settlement are just about zero. But, back to the issue of electric bikes …. would you seriously consider risking your financial future by riding one without public liability? … Which you can’t buy?
Ben Sellers says
I like the thought of being green. The problem is that no matter what kind of power we choose currently it leads back to a carbon footprint somewhere. My personal preference is bio fuels that break down quicker and easier in the environment. I run a diesel bike on vegetable oil. This fuel breaks down faster in the environment than fossil gasoline, diesel or the coal in a coal fired electric plant. My bike is not the fastest or prettiest but I know every nut and bolt on it and it is perfectly suited to my riding style. This is not every ones ideal. We have to decide a individuals what is best for our needs or wants.
John says
My bike is 8 yrs. old and the only things I’ve had to deal with other than tires,brake pads aqnd oil changes is batteries,3 in those 8 yrs. and the only thing that almost stranded me,half a block from my house was the second battery.I don’t like them.
Marneyman says
To all who would say that electric vehicles do not reduce the carbon footprint of anything, I submit that an electric vehicle uses less fuel to do the same thing that a fossil fuel powered vehicle does, and weaning vehicles off of fossil fuels is the first step to powering them with solar, wind or some other kind of non-destructive energy source. The Prius already powers it’s AC with solar panels on the roof. Imagine having a large capacity battery on an electric KLR650 type bike hundreds of miles from civilization. Your battery is dead so you whip out a nth generation collapsable windmill or solar charger, and 20 minutes later you are on your way. That is (at least part of) the dream that electric vehicles promise.
cycleguy says
I think an electric motorcycle has a place in the current market place, especially a sport bike. Many sport bike owners, particularly the wealthy ones with multiple exotic bikes in their stable generally take their steads out for a nice Sunday ride, usually lasting less than an hour and under 100 miles. For this purpose, a high powered electric sportbike with around a 100 mile range would be acceptable. Remember the majority of motorcycle riders in this country ride for fun, it’s a great toy to have, and fun is what it’s all about.
Lost in most of this conversation is the fact that a similarly powered electric bike would be far more entertaining to ride, and provide a whole new riding experience with full torque always available at the twist of the throttle, no downshifting, no waiting for the revs to climb and no loud exhaust attracting attention while you wheelie down the street.
I’m certainly willing to give it a try.
Tin Man 2 says
A whole new riding experience with full torque always available at the twist of the throttle, No downshifting, No waiting for the revs to climb and no loud exhaust… Wow this sounds like a Harley, with stock exhaust!!
nortley says
Tin Man, I think you touched on it a few posts back. Accept the electric bike as a short range machine and sell it as such. A bike with a reliable 50 mile range should cover most urban commutes, and quite a few elsewhere. If the Davidsons or Henry Ford had nitpicked and fine tweaked their machines, and not released them until perfect, we would not be buying their machines today. They froze a design that worked well, and sold it while developing the next, improved generation. So it could be with electrics. Talk up their advantages and be honest about shortcomings, but get them out on the road, get them in view, and get riders talking them up. If better batteries and drives are to be developed, they must be paid for, and industry has traditionally done this by selling what they have now. Riding anything should convert most newcomers to enthusiasts, so established dealers could sell electrics alongside their traditional makes, and ease the idea of a second, weekend machine into the electric rider’s head.
kwcmustang says
I am no expert but as far as races having not been run with electric bikes I believe this is not the case this year at the isle of man TT which is one of the most amazing motorcycle events in the world. They raced a number of electric bikes around the TT course. Don’t no if it went well but I am sure it is on youtube somewhere.
fazer6 says
I commute daily on a 500w 36v electric bicycle.
It uses about $0.20/day of grid-sourced juice. My commute is 8 miles each way, which is just inside the 20 mile range @ 30mph.
I built the entire ride for about $1000 + bicycle (also $1000, as I have expensive taste in bicycles, but it could be done for much less).
If the Brammo was $6000, had a top speed of 70mph, and a range of 50 miles, I’d have one in the garage already.
fazer6 says
Plus, I thin the Brammo should like like their TTXGP bike
fazer6 says
WHOOPS!
Foot-on-my-mouth :O) I meant to say the Brammo needed a 100-mile range, not just 50. That would give it comparable range to a standard IC bike, and more than most ride in any one day.
Would still need to be under $6k though, as ANY gas-powered machine in the $4k price range would outperform even my ‘desired’ specs.
todd says
I like my bike. It’s got approximately 150 lb-ft of torque from zero RPM and has an extremely small carbon footprint. I don’t even have to charge any batteries or fill it up with fuel but I do have to shift often as it has 18 speeds… As long as I stick to side streets and short distances I’m fine as all that torque doesn’t do squat for me with only around 1/2 HP.
As for electrics, I think the way to go is with an on-board generator charging a small bank of batteries and a high power motor. Without the constant deep discharging the batteries would last much longer and running, say, a small diesel when needed could easily get you well over 100 mpg and little fear of running out of juice. Bikes configured with larger batteries and smaller generators would be better suited for short commutes, those configured with larger generators and smaller battery packs would be more suited towards touring or higher speeds.
Of course, it’s really hard to beat the ICE. Maybe we should continue focusing on ways to increase its efficiency.
-todd
Brian Sheridan says
Paul,
I think you write these short essay just to get us engineers to wake up after having too much lunch. To your credit, your web site is the first click after I log on at lunch time every day at work. Most forums are just so much dibble, but most all the posts on Kneeslider get to the point, Don’t stop the discussion.
Brian Sheridan
Kohler, WI
wildfire says
So perhaps I should chime in as someone who owns –both– a gas-guzzling sport-tourer and an electric scoot. Over the past 10 years, I’ve logged a little over 50K on a gas-powered bike. Not much, I know, until I add-in that 90% of this has been freeway riding to and from work in Seattle traffic (#1 worst traffic in the US, woohoo!). If you knew that an electric motorcycle could accomplish 90% of your goals, cost less to operate, be more enjoyable to ride in traffic (hallelujah for a clutch-less commute!!) AND that you still would have the ability to keep the sport-tourer for the longer rides, then why wouldn’t you make a go of it? For me the big issue had indeed been price, but that’s just because I’m a cheap SOB. Prices are coming down now, though, and let’s face it, a lot of motorcyclists I encounter online have more than 1 bike sitting in their garage. So why not go electric? There’s still enough mechanics to fiddle around with, electrics open up a whole new range of tweaking (if software is made available), “fuel” is cheap and clean where I live (hydro), handling on my little scooter wheels is awesome (I didn’t know a two-wheeled vehicle could be so maneuverable) and built-in reverse is becoming an indispensable feature. Battery swapping would certainly be nice, but at ~200 pounds and with a 140+V rating, this is certainly not a trivial matter (ever wired up an electrical socket while the power was hot? possible, but not recommended). Though rock-solid, cheap batteries would be nice, bullet-proof battery management (BMS) I think is even more important (don’t want to toast that $3K investment, do you?) and is an area where progress is being made in leaps and bounds. In the mean-time, free-for-5 years tow insurance would be nice (you’re never far from home, after all) and independent forums are a god-send. So am I an atypical rider since I live in a city? Perhaps, but if even 10% of us “one-percenters” could agree that an electric bike would be a worthwhile addition to our stables, that’s still a hell of a respectable market.. PS- Don’t forget the soon-to-arrive hybrid scoot from Piaggio.
Doug K says
Ask yourself this: How much energy does it take to make the solar panel itself (aluminum frame, backer board, plastic coatings, the cells themselves, cords, voltage control system and more) compared to how much energy that panel can produce in it’s working life of ten to maybe 20 years?
The awful truth is that solar cool but solar is a net loser that merely moves the pollution to someone else’s neighborhood where the plastics, metals, and other materials are mined, drilled, and manufactured, while the panel itself produces less electricity than was consumed in it’s creation.
Solar IS the future along with hydrogen fuel cells but not until the efficiency of the final product goes way up beyond where it is now. Happily, there are some breakthroughs coming in solar efficiency, even solar paint that produces electricity, but for now solar is a very pretty loser.
I think electric motorcycles or hydrogen fuel cell powered motorcycles are inevitable but it will be a while and happily, as an older rider, my riding days will probably be over by then. No more MotoGP wail, no v-twin rumble or v-four snarl. Yeah, those futurebikes will be sweet bikes to ride. Pass.
David/cigarrz says
@ Doug K
Thanks for saving me all that typing. Some of us old guys a still waiting for our flying cars too.
Billy B. Tso says
Carlo 12.14.09 at 2:37 pm ….i like your idea here! a battery station…simple but smart.
Scotduke says
Electric bikes make sense for urban commuters in Europe, given or much higher fuel prices. They wouldn’t suit me, not quite enough range yet and nowhere to recharge. I note that in South Korea’s capital Seoul, the authorities are offering subsidies to firms using courier bikes to make city deliveries for them to switch to electric motorcycles. This would be a good way forward for the market.
F0ul says
Just like a whole collection of SciFi technologies, the Electric vehicle is always 10-20+ in the future!
The main problem is exactly as Kneeslider says – success comes from not having an excuse!
Think mobile phones – the first ones were useless with 3 hour battery life – but the advantage they offered of calls from anywhere made up for this downside. With Electric vehicles, they don’t offer any advantage on what we have at the moment – except maybe running costs per mile – but that is debatable.
I would have guessed everyone has heard of Climategate by now – there is still a question of whether carbon free is even a valid excuse – why do we need to change from our current choice of fuel?
Could it be that the powers that be would like to stop the fuel money going to the oil barons, and have created a carbon scheme to ensure they get the profits from the next generation of fuel?
Just a thought! 🙂
randy says
” and the only thing that almost stranded me,half a block from my house was the second battery.I don’t like them.”
Stranded! What kept you from walking a half block home?
Joe says
@ F0ul,
Its not climate change you should worry about for your choice of fuel (as most CO2 is industrial anyways) but rather peak oil.
It is a physical impossibility for there to be an infinite amount of oil in the earth as the earth is a finite size. Thus, there is a limit to how much currently exists in wells, undiscovered oil fields, and reserves. When we use that all up, thats it, game over. If we haven’t come up with a viable an alternative in the meantime, the whole world grinds to a screeching halt. So “carbon-neutral” shouldn’t be the issue so much as “renewable”.
As to those who say that switches to electrics just shifts the burden to other places like coal plants, yes, that is true, but power plants run at a much higher efficiency than your typical engine. The ICE is incredibly effective, but also incredibly inefficient. The steam turbines (yay steam power!) used to generate electricity at coal, nuclear, natural gas, geothermal, etc plants are significantly more efficient. The only losses that you then incur are in transmission and distribution. Even these losses would be mitigated with a more widespread use of CHP (combined heat and power), or alternatively, with individual solar panels/wind turbines, which also negates the power plant pollution issues.
That being said, I think you’re right in that electrics wont sell well until they don’t need an excuse, but we need excuses for them to keep being built in case we run out of oil tomorrow. Sure, we’d have to take a big step back and significantly alter the way the world is run with electrics at their current stage, but its better than having to ship goods in conestoga wagons. And hydrogen fuel is even further from reality IMO so i wont even go there.
Carlo says
@ Billy B. Tso, it ain’t my idea, Nissan already has developed it. It’s just that it’s so easy that people just can’t think about it. Who cares then about battery life?
F0ul says
@Joe
Peak Oil is just a story used to keep the hard of thinking busy! 🙂
You realise that every few years, since the 1700’s, we have had some fool get up and say, “Help, we are running out of fuel – do something now!”
They said coal would run out in 1850, 1899, 1915, 1933, 1947, 1965, 1987, 1995 .. I think you get the point!
They are also saying that oil will be running out just as often … but it isn’t going to happen in your life time! We have enough oil to keep us going for at least 300 years.
Within the next 100 years, we will have developed a new form of power which will do the job better!
Think of it this way, we no longer use peat, whale oil, town gas, kerosene, and the petrol we use today is not the same stuff we used with the Ford model T!
Technology keeps moving on, and eventually, it will be good enough to be used in totally new ways we have yet to think of yet!
Within 200 years, we will not be using oil for fuel – and you can archive that forecast!
But, to think that there is a time limit, and we are on a countdown is totally stupid, and doesn’t do anything but raise budget funding expectations!
SteveD says
Electric vehicles are useful even if Global warming is much ado about nothing. For example, France gets much of its power in the form of electricity from nuclear. The US has a vast coal supply that can be used to generate power. Electric cars can use these supplies to simply reduce dependence on the oil suppliers. The oild will start getting scare at some point, be it 20 or 75 years. At some point, the price will begin to rise as it becomes more expensive to extract it.
Paulinator says
Great posts Guys and Gals!
I’d like to point out that augmenting human power in the 300 to 500 Watt range seems practical with current battery technology. Packing the equivalent power output of 300 or 400 weekend athletes into a 150kg sport bike is not so easy, however. Maybe some of our problems lie with expectation rather than technology. As for carbon foot-print and renuable source – I like wood gas over turbo compound ICE with steam injection.
patrat says
no hybrid soon…..what about money!!! Dino fuel will rule for a long time people.Ask yourself ;who run’s the show and dont want to lose any do$$$
John says
While I bear no ill will against an electric motorcycle I think you are kidding yourself that there is a ‘real’ difference in the carbon footprint when the the production of the electricity and the manufacturing and disposal of the batteries are considered. Lots of nasty chemicals to deal with there! I have a relatively modern 1000cc ‘standard’ motorcycle. Ridden with a conservative wrist it will return 60 miles from one gallon of gas. Maybe instead of getting too bent out of shape with getting off our gas powered bikes and on to electrics we should be focusing on getting more people out of their cages and on to motorcycles in general. Sure, not everyone can ride all the time but when viewed in terms of the numbers of 4 wheeled vehicles in use small percentages would make a staggering difference in fuel used as well as congestion, a major source of extra pollution in itself. Besides, one of my co-workers rode his FJ1200 to work last week when it was -9C!!!
coho says
Human – Electric hybrid.
Range limited only by the pilot’s endurance.
Goes 50mph.
http://www.erockit.net/en/
Mule says
It’s been said here in many different ways….heres how I see it. I hope these responses by all the naysayers aren’t the best they can come up with. It’s not new technology, but it’s a radically new application of that technology and will take time and money ( a ton of it), to finally get it worked out. I’m very excited about it and can’t wait to see it work. But everyone needs to remember, there is no time schedule or deadline to meet. It’ll happen when it frickin’ happens. If it a 1, 2, 5 or 10 years, so what? We still have bikes to ride and it isn’t costing us a fricking nickle! Sure, they have to market the bikes and sell them to keep dollars coming in to stay in business. Is that a crime? How long did it take to develope our space program? I lived through it and my father was there from the start. Back then though, you didn’t hear a bunch of idiots saying that it couldn’t be done, it’s taking too long, they’ll gonna fail, it will never be as good as…blah, blah, blah. Right now, other people that are excited about about new possibilities are doing all the work while the naysayers sit on their asses and bitch about the lack of progress. Twenty years ago, we didn’t even know what a cel phone was. Now they’ve become our personal computers that allow us take to anyone, anywhere instantly.
The electric guys are facing some serious obstacles and are working hard to solve the problems. This isn’t like some nerds designing Play Station 4 for some geeky kids, this is real life so it might take a couple years. Give um a frickin’ break for Christ sake!!
Titus says
Stated that less or more many of us are worried about our planet health and that people love to appear alternately “good (green) people” or “uncorrect (old XX century) people”, and seen that is clear enough that the electric vehicles will not save our atmosphere, I think the best thing is taking it with elegance. I explain: it’s obvious the most of the problems are on a large scale, a scale we cannot control just by our everyday correct behaviour (useful though…), so let’s keep sadness away, let’s live with elegance following the making of the Beauty as glory of the Mankind. Combustion engines are part of it and one of the best things the men has done.The combustion engines are always better and “clean”, as well as the vehicles we drive. Beautiful form + great function by the means we have, this is “Glory” and “Beauty” in my opinion. If the governments will avoid thoughtless large-scale mistakes and we do an incessant work industrial research and development and a revolutionary large scale transport optimization (I think above all to the old hard smoking transport ships, one of the main causes of pollution), we will not need of useless ( and hypocritical, I add) renunciations like the electric bikes and cars, we bikers can continue to enjoy of our always more perfect and updated combustion engines, without feeling guilty of the climate change. So we will can start our one-two-three-four-six cylinders engines and ride our fantastic bikes and the fast Beauty they represent, as they sound. Beauty is just, works fine and consequently is “elegant”.
Andrew says
Ah, where is Tony Stark when we need him? If we all had an “arc reactor” then everybody would have an electic car!
Ok, I am kidding … but do believe that there is some technology out there that will provide high density electric storage on a scale we could not imagine now. (The batteries that power cordless drills today are a quantum leap over the rechargables that were available in 1979) Personally, I think its going to be fuel cells. The power to weight ratio of fuel cells is phenominal even today, think of what it could be with the paper-thin electrodes that are being developed. Fuel cells arent limited to just hydrogen and oxygen either. Any combination of two fluids where one is an oxidizer and the other a reducer could be used. Someone just needs to find one combination that produces the largest energy density and is relatively inexpensive to manufacture. Currently there is a fuel cell being marketed in Japan by Toshiba that will run a laptop for 10 hours on a few millileters of pure ethanol.
MikeC says
Hydrogen is definitely not the answer. Any hydrogen. A fuel cell may be, but not with hydrogen. As most of us know hydrogen is not stable in the environment by itself, therefore it needs to be converted/generated = power = non-renewable resources (especially in North America). Battery technology will come, as will efficient solar cells (not typical crystalline photovoltaics) but be sure that they are not carbon neutral as a system. Simply shifting the problem into someone elses back yard, as someone else said. I think the real problem is the current world population, and the net average consumption of resources in general. I really don’t care if we have electric bikes/cars or ICE powered (both can be made cool), the problem I have is with too much consumption in general, resulting in too much waste (CO2). Do something about the world population, and we will deal with the greenhouse gas problem…but I digress. Sorry!!
David/cigarrz says
@mike c
The entire population of the earth can stand on the Isle of Mann now go to google earth and find the Isle of Mann. Overpopulation is another ridiculous idea invented for political ends. Technology that stands on its on merit, meaning it has a purpose the consumer finds useful always suceeds and doesn’t require political blackmail or green religion. If these technology’s become part of our lives it will be because we want them not because of holier than thou brow beatings and fear mongering from the likes of Al Gore.
Joe says
@F0ul
You may well be right that we have enough oil to not run out for the next 300 years, (though I think it will be more on the order of 50), but regardless, even if we dont “run out,” we’ve seen how hard hit the whole county was last summer when gas went up to $4 a gallon. What if it goes up to 8? 10? 15? even for political and not supply reasons? Electrics are going to start looking a LOT more attractive, at least until we develop that “new form of power.” I’d rather have something in the works “just in case,” even if it never has to be practically applied on a large scale.
fazer6 says
@ Doug K
That’s simply not true about the embodied energy in solar panels. While there is some, on average it is recovered in about 3 years, and most have 25 year life spans, and then much of it can be recycled/repurposed.
FREEMAN says
The fact of the matter is that technology is not here to solve the world’s problems, whether perceived or fact. That is up to you and the soft, grey stuff between your ears.
Advancement or no advancement, in any field, will arrive whether you’re patient enough to wait for it or not.
For all we know, the next best thing is probably still to be imagined.
Paulinator says
Re:
I’ve read that globally, at present, about 50% of grain yields get eaten by rats. If we could get those rats to stop breeding like rabbits, just think about all that guilt-free high octane gasohol that would be liberated!!!
Paulinator says
hey! WTF…it was supposed to read Re: over-population
Nicolas says
The entire world population can fit on the Isle of Mann, or the Isle of Man ? The second being where they do the Tourist Trophy, I’ve been there, and it can hardly fit a few thousands drunk german & britton riders … lol
James Bowman says
Where to begin,
First off let me state that I was formally a Global warming skeptic however I now am a full blown, dare I say it denyer. What a misguided political quagmire, when ever the focus shifts from reasobable diologue to blatent indoctrination & propagandizing the force of argument is almost certainly insufficient. It appears that the tides are already turning against the Gore machines green driven religion, green as in cash that is. Any self respecting televangelist would be proud of Al. Enough about AGW much of the world is waking up to the fact that they were emotionally duped (I already knew polar bears could swim so the stranded polar bear was not very compelling).
Now about electrics they exite me, not to do away with ICE power but to augment them for performance and effeciency, because they oil companies also have us over a barrel and competition is always good for the consumer and over all the electrics are cleaner, quiter and do lesson our dependence on foriegn oil in hostile parts of the world. I am about less pollution as I hate being behind some diesil belching out clouds of black soot. I just know its not the C02 thats toxic. I love killacycle a 7 second electric motorcycle that will only get faster and make people want electrics not forced so by regulation, those who still don’t like em shouldn’t have to be strong armed at least until the President goes to the next Copenhagen summit via bicycle and kayak (If the weather continues dog sled might be doable).
I like options other than petroleum as its good for us, I think a lot of progress has been made to make them a realistic alternative for some, myself a 100 mile range with a cost equal to or less than my 250cc dual sport and I too woud have one already, but my commute to work is 23 miles one way. I enjoy this discussion and I think a lot of valid points have been made, I think electrics will have their day and sooner rather than later. I think the threat of rapid developement of alternative fuels keeps gas prices a little bit in check or we would still be paying 4 bucks a gallon. I think Al Gore has damaged the credibillity of enviornmental causes so real concerns will be dismissed. Maybe some Americans will start looking beyond special effects for a plot again when the shiny box tells them otherwise. No offence to anyone hopefully reason will prevail. If it does get warmer I will ride my bike even more, not because I have to but because I can ;o]
Kelly says
There’s actually a lot of potential in current lithium technologies, my fav being the lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) variety from the likes of Thundersky or A123 systems. Altho the energy density isn’t where it needs to be yet, there have been some interesting improvements recently in power density that could allow for much quicker recharging, provided the infrastructure is available to support it.
An early example that’s becoming more refined as its development continues is the X-treme XM-5000li (http://www.x-tremescooters.com/electric_mopeds/xm-5000li/xm-5000li.html – a Chinese competitor to the Vectrix). Sure its just a scooter, but at least they’re doing *something* to get an end-consumer electic product out in the marketplace! Its just a couple of generations away from being an electric success story, I think.
richard says
Trouble is…, the likes of Al Gore are not going away…. Even tho’ you could power all the vehicles on Earth for the next thousand years from the gasses emitted from their Man-made Climate Change b/s, and every well-informed person knows it’s all a pollitically motivated scam, the fact remains that legislation will be rammed through – if not now then in the not too distant future.
Tin Man 2 hints at what is coming in one of his posts. He says maybe we should forget the Sunday ride. Well, you can forget personal transport altogether. Think public transport – from your home to work. Any unnecessary travel- forget it….
fazer6 says
Wow, paranoid much?
Carlo says
speaking about battery autonomy [besides, like I said before, you could CHANGE the battery once it’s over with a fully charged one at a “battery station”] take a look @ this: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/12/18/saab_e_car_plan/
90miles of autonomy and planned 185 for future battery models. And that’s a 335hp car doin’ 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and weighing like 10 times an average bike. I guess the same battery type could be used VERY functionally on a leccy bike.
Mehul Kamdar says
While the concerns raised over battery performance are very true as things stand, as are the arguments that no vehicle can be completely carbon free, there is one reason why electric motorcycles make sense as commuter vvehicles and that is the cost per mile. Small business owners (myself included) can write off the purchase of an electric motorcycle as an expense at the end of the year and if you have charging facilities at home as well as at work and commute less than 50 miles one way, this can be an amazingly cheap way to travel to work and back. There is no perrfect solution, I agree, but at the same time, engineers are hard at work on improving electric vehicles and writing them off may be as unwise as the arguments that Nobel winners came up with to suggest that man would never land on the moon. There are highly intelligent people at work in the USA and other countries. Give them some time to work and they will find a way to make electric motorcycles succeed.
For those who are still skeptical, can anyone here name all the gasoline motorcycle brands that existed in the USA historically? Anyone remember the Buzzmobile? The O-We-Go? There were more than 100 brands in the early years of gasoline motorcycling and only Indian and Harley Davidson survived. While there were no blogs back then, I can think of some early non-believers saying that this motorcycling fad would never survive because just two companies survived out of 150 . . . like some skeptics today feel about electric motorcycles.
Boog says
@John: 30 years ago, I rode my bike to work (30 miles one way) everyday it wasn’t raining or slick (ice or snow). In those days, I was doing what I am now (teaching) but in those times employers wern’t so tight-a$$ed about your dress at work. Nowadays, most people with professional jobs with dress codes are limited to enclosed from the elements forms of transportation. And don’t tell me that you could always change clothes when you arrive…there are no places to do this and most certainly do not want to add a couple of hours to the daily work schedule changing clothes and hauling extra clothes around, etc…
Point is, motorcycles are great but just not practical for most people…oh sure, if you are flipping burgers or working in a garage or working as an industrial mechanic (which I have done also) you can wear jeans and t shirts, but most employers would have a hissy-fit if you even walked into the building dressed as such.
I wish it wern’t so, but alas….
todd says
Boog, move to California. When you ride the weather is hardly ever bad. Your commute to work will never leave you stuck in traffic (lane splitting…) and places of employment don’t give a hoot about what you wear (fear of a lawsuit I guess). Now I do dress nicely now and then (tuck my shirt into my jeans) when a client visits but mostly my clothes are saved from the elements by wearing a full riding suit.
-todd
Boog says
California!!! YAHHHHHHHH!!!! Beautiful state, and yes, very nice weather. However, most of my redneck hobbies (guns, hunting, shooting, hot rods, old “gross-polluting” vehicles such as my clapped-out old Dodge pickup, etc.) would not be much appreciated or tolerated in most neighborhoods, not to mention the state “political correctness” folks. I guess I am too conservative and old-fart-ey for California life…but like the man sez, I could be wrong…
I am, however, a big Swartzenegger fan…:)