After my question about the potential for an electric Gold Wing and all of the thoughtful comments it generated, I thought I would touch on this ultracapacitor patent by EEStor that’s getting a lot of attention. EEStor says it has developed “technologies for replacement of electrochemical batteries.” A bold statement in the very least.
A capacitor is a rather common electronic component that can store an electrical charge and discharge it very quickly or slowly, depending on how it is placed in the circuit, they can be used to shape waveforms in electronic circuits, they’re used in power supplies, they’ve been around for a long time. More recently, there has been a lot of interest in developing their basic ability to store energy. Just how much electrical energy can you put into one of these capacitors and how fast can you get it in there?
EEStor’s patent says it can safely charge to 3500 volts and store at least 52.22 kWh of electrical energy. Or, as a New York Times article put it, “a motorist could plug in a car for five minutes and drive 500 miles roundtrip between Dallas and Houston without gasoline.”
These are pretty interesting claims, and I use the words “pretty interesting” to mean “do you have any evidence to support them?” If the technology has advanced to that point, we’re are about to see some very big changes in motor vehicles of all kinds, not just motorcycles, or we’re right at the point where some investors are going to lose a lot of money. Being the optimist that I am, I would prefer the former.
If true, whether right now or some time in the near future, we may also see some entirely new companies jumping into the vehicle business. If the power is primarily from some electrical circuits instead of internal combustion engines, it will be a lot like the digital camera turning the film camera industry upside down. What happens to a company like Harley Davidson in this scenario or any of the manufacturers that build their brand or reputation around the look and sound of an engine?
This also is a very strong hint that anyone interested in motor vehicles should make sure they understand electricity and electronics to a much higher degree than many current mechanics or technicians do today. If you want to design a future motorcycle, think about designing it around an electric motor.
Electric motorcycles are coming, maybe sooner than you think.
Link: New York Times via Futurepundit
RH says
Ultracap’s are another item that’s been right ’round the corner for many many years – and I’m still waiting to see them for sale to the public with specs that match the claims.
sfan says
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers have invested in EEStor. KPCB is a legendary VC, with early stage investments in Amazon.com, America Online, Compaq, Electronic Arts, Flextronics, Google, Intuit, Lotus Development, Macromedia, Netscape, Sun Microsystems, to name a few of their very big wins. Their technical due diligence in EEStor would have been top notch. This isn’t to say there would be neither technical and business execution risk for EEStor, but it does suggest that some very experienced, successful and informed people are involved.
GenWaylaid says
Ultracapacitor development has been lagging lithium batteries these past couple years, but one good breakthrough and ultracaps could jump ahead.
From the point of view of the drivetrain there’s really no difference between a battery pack and an ultracapacitor array. Internally, the ultracapacitor stores energy in a standing electric field while a battery stores it as chemical energy. In theory the ultracap could have a higher energy density because its internal charge carriers are electrons rather than much larger ions, but the materials have to be able to withstand intense electric fields without breaking down.
Ultracapacitors may have a theoretically faster charging rate than batteries, but the latest lithium-iron-phosphate batteries are pretty close. The main problem is where you will get that much electricity at once.
Mike says
Interestingly, while you responders seem knowledgeable none of you did any calculations.
My knowledge of electricity is limited to V=I/R. lol
But I found these elsewhere and wonder what you all think.
The patent claims 3500 Volts of electricity and it holds 52.22 kWh of electrical energy.(google search eestor)
I’d like to know the formulas that led to the 52Kwh=1.5 gallons gas(is that regular?)
Do the tesla and Ev have 52 Kwh also? What is the weight of their battery pack vs the 336 pounds of eestor?
“52.22KWh is only the amount of energy in 1.5 gallons of gas. It’s also the same amount of power as in a GM EV1 or a Tesla Roadster. And both of those go less than 250 miles. These people are trying to claim they can go 1000 miles, or 4x as far per Joule as a Tesla Roadster.”
“Assuming DC….
3500V, 52.22 kWh, and 5 minute time…
That turns out to be a charging current of (excluding losses due to heating and such, assuming 100% storage)…
First… 52.22 kW/h in 5 minutes requires (60/5) * 52,220W, or 626,640 Watts
Plug this and known voltage of 3500V into P = I * E and we get 626,640 = 3500 * E
So E = 179.04 Amps”
Anyway, any thought?
Mike
John says
Hey Mike, a 200 amp service with a massive step up auto transformer and turning everything off in the house for 5 minutes would do the trick.
BillWilliam says
From what I have read on their patent this sounds real. They have missed some dates on independent tests. In other research I have found the only problem is a change in temperature causes a loss of capacity. This could be solved by a peltier cooling/heating device to maintain a constant temperature of the capacitor. EESTORE says a barium titanate of high purity will cure this too. I hope this works out but their secretive nature makes me suspicious. That and selling the motorvehicle rights to a small neighborhood car company. If this thing works it would be worth billions. Look at Altirnano for the latest on quick charge batteries. Expensive though.
Cost is the main concern. If it is not cost effencent it will never make the big time.
If it works for cars it will work for load balancing wind and solar power systems making the power available 24-7. That will be the end of fossel fuels.
Don says
I’m a little late to this game, Mike, but I think your 60-min and 5-min factors are inverted. Change that and the current required is under 15 amps. Plugging a 15 amp charger with 30/1 transformers into 120V AC, to get 3600V output, means the number of transformers is about 30 in the array, each putting out 0.5 amps.
(using round numbers, losses excluded, your mileage may vary)
Joe says
52.22kWh = 14.91 Ah @ 3500V
3500V/120V = 29.16 turns
29.16 * 14.91 = 435 Amps @ 120VAC
This type of analysis is better suited for a managed discharge of a cap through a regulator, not a quick charge… that quick charge would look like a dead short initially, probably blowing up any transformers in the vicinity. That 435 is an AVERAGE charge/discharge rate…. the kind of average where the end of the 5 minutes sees .001 amps, and the beginning sees a couple thousand amps.
HOWEVER, I don’t see where it says above that a full charge is required for a 500 mile ride, nor that the assumption is that the caps are ever completely discharged then plugged in for 5 minutes. In a system like this, you’d never want to completely discharge the caps anyway… It would probably have a management system that would prevent you from doing so. It’s the kind of thing that you’d circumvent to your own peril.
Oh, and since weight was mentioned, I believe the Tesla carries well over 1000lbs in batteries. That’s the crazy thing about hybrids and EVs… so much of their energy is expended in carrying themselves around. This issue obviously exists in ICE vehicles, but to a lesser extent considering the amount of power they can generate. The power/weight ratio of an ICE vehicle is a lot easier to work with since the fuel itself plays a minor role… even a large SUV may only carry 150lbs of gas in a full tank, pretty small compared to its engine. Whereas a hybrid or an EV distributes weight across ICE, fuel, motors, and batteries. The electric motor(s), depending on size and configuration can easily run another 500-1000 lbs.
Anyway, it makes a LOT more sense to plug the damn thing in for an hour if you’re planning a 500 mile trip. I don’t think that kind of forethought is too much to ask, and a managed charging solution would bring you to somewhere around 40 amps average. Given that the whole trip would cost less than $10, I think it’s well worth the inconvenience of not being an idiot.