There isn’t much racing coverage here on The Kneeslider but this deserves a bit of attention. Joe Kopp, on board the Lloyd Brothers Motorsports Ducati flat tracker, won a Grand National race at the Budweiser Arizona Mile in Prescott, Arizona in front of a whole bunch of Harley Davidson XRs. That’s the first time for a Ducati.
We’re not about to start doing race reports but the Ducati powered racer looks pretty good. I see the basis for a nice street tracker sitting there. Maybe our buddy Richard at Mule Motorcycles should look at something Italian for an upcoming project.
Link: AMA Pro Racing
Link: Lloyd Brothers Motorsports
Related: Ducati Street Tracker
Mule says
I’ll be the first to go on record as saying that seat sure doesn’t go with the bike or the street bike it came from for that matter.
Congrats to Joe Kopp for shakin’ up the establishment bigtime! A co-worker saw the race and said the Werner Kawasaki 650 looked and sounded awesome as did the Wood BMW!! Good stuff happening!
Miles says
I think this is fantastic, props to the BMW and Yamaha bikes (BMW for showing up and Yamaha for placing)
I went to this page from the “Lloyd Brothers Motorsports” link : http://www.lloydbrothersmotorsports.net/updates.htm
That page is a single 1.7Mb Jpeg file (or 27.8MB uncompressed) containing a few small pictures and a lot of text.
While this is a terrible way to make a webpage, I am glad they are focusing on the racing 🙂
(PS, I am willing to convert it to a normal web page for free, drop me an email if interested.)
Skizick says
Gyroscopic stability or, Ridin’ the flywheels, is what gave the K model et al the advantage over the others throughout the years. Does the Duke have a similar lineup in terms of flywheels, and other spinning components? Or, was this win a result of skill, horsepower and adrenalin, as in King Kenny’s case? Congrats non the less!!
Hammerspur says
Mule:
“I’ll be the first to go on record as saying that seat sure doesn’t go with the bike…”
Was thinkin’ the same thing!
Aichbe says
Since the seat was on when he won, I’d say it does go well with it. Since it’s a racer and not a styling exersize, it looks pretty good. It grows on you.
Ducati already makes a street tracker; it’s called the Monster. Put some 19″s and a small tank on, and pull off the front brake. Yeehaw!
kneeslider says
@Mule and @Hammerspur: that seat sure doesn’t go with the bike”
Yes, but it certainly works as a racer and I have a hunch Mule could come up with a better looking solution without too much difficulty.
Miles says
Looking at the site again, it may be simplest to replace the picture with one that is pre-scaled. The image is 2,000 pixels across and uses HTML to make the browser change it to 839 pixels.
This makes the quality quite poor, as the fast algorithms for re-size in a browser produce sub-par results.
A simple Re-sizing in the free Gimp program (like photoshop, only free) resulted in a 239Kb image with a 3Mb uncompressed size. The quality was much improved.
John says
I may be wrong about the displacement but pretty sure the Ducati like the Suzukis are 1000cc, not to mention overhead cam, 4 valve and 30-40 years more modern design. so why try to diminish the Harleys?
Aichbe says
Ducatis come in several sizes. That one looks like an air-cooled 750 SS, with a pair of 2 valve heads. There are 597 cc Monster engines out there, that look similar.
Skizick says
Hey John, maybe I ain’t been keepin up on the scene, I thought 750cc was the limit. Design development in terms of horsepower output is a great advantage down the straight but haveing all the spinning stuff lined up on a single plane is the key once you get sideways, eh?
woody eckes says
Talked to Davey Durelle after this event. He was present as a suspension tuner I believe. He said the Ducati had a straightaway speed advantage but couldn’t go around the corners as good as the competition. In his view Halbert slowed down towards the end of the race while Kopp never slowed down or gave up. Cornering speed was critical to lap times. Glad to hear they got this event in the books and not rained out. Next time out there hopefully everything will be better for all involved. David also said the spectator count looked good and said they should of made some money which is a good thing. Woody Eckes
Domino Dave says
Finally … The day I have been waiting for. I am a Harley fan, but as Mule expressed … Congratuolations and thankyou to Lloyd Brothers and Joe Kopp for shaking things up …. It’s about time !! p.s. Bring the mile back to Sacramento ….
John says
I just looked up the rules and the only Ducati eligable is a 750 so I have to make my correction. Other eligable bikes are 1000cc Vtwin Aprilias and Suzukis among others, that’s why I made the assumtion. So it was a good win for the Ducati and team just remember though the Ducati is at least 25-30 or more years more advanced design with over head cams and the Harley is a 750 pushrod, so the fact that it still dominates against much more modern designs and some with 1000cc OHC 4v motors shows it’s genius.
nobody says
Looks like a tail from the Ducati Sport Classic line – works for me. It needs a cliche’ dirt tracker tail like it needs pushrods.
Skizick says
Back in the Ol’ days (late 60’s 70’s) Yamaha, Honda, Kawie, all had more power than the K model HD. HD came right out and told all commers that until they built according to the laws of physics as their K’s and Indian’s Scouts, they wouldn’t win consistantly at the mile. As the bikes start sliding out in the turn you dial up the RPM’s and stand the bike back up and lean out further. Like a sail boat against the wind. One should keep in mind that when the K’s were designed HD had been to the flattrack for almost 50 years. Honda started building a like bike, if you will, and finally became competitive.
pasta says
great to see competition reforming .
brings back memories of jay springsteen .. king kenny .
we need more sat night night flat track racing..any promoters out there…
there are plenty of horse tracks that are closed in off seasons…
Skizick says
The Sacto Mile at the fair grounds before Cal Expo. were the Berries. They let us hang on the railing comming out of the home stretch. Getting hit in the head by those flying dirt clods helped make me who I am today…
hoyt says
It’s interesting the direct line from steering neck to swingarm pivot trellis frame was abandoned for a cradle frame. Incorporate more flex?
John says
Skizick , I think your confusing the K, which was an earlier flathead with the XR750 that came out in 70. I like your sailboat analogy,sounds good.
Nicolas says
I could use it for the daily commute ….
Skizick says
John, The K model came out in 1952. HD’s first foot shift (on the right cause the race slid to the left) unit conctruction motor. The KR was the race engine from 52 til 69. The catagory was 750cc flathead or 500cc OVH. The XR750 is the KR’s offspring, so to speak. The XR is just a KR with the valves upstairs. Harley said you have to line up all the gyros on the same plane in order to control the feeling once sideways. Thus the term “Riding the Flywheels” came about.
Tin Man 2 says
Im an XR750 fan, and I love Flat Track racing. I think more brands will make the racing even better, even I get tired of the HD parade. Bring on the competition, Ducati, Triumph,BMW and the Asians, Its all Good!! Look how sad NASCAR has become since they are pretty much a spec series. Its much better to see brands with different capabilitys fight it out, One may be faster one may turn better, one goes high the other low, Real Racing.
Skizick says
Run what ya brung. That’s my motto.
Walt says
Flat track is great racing. I love multi-brand racing with the technical competition that implies, and just fall asleep watching brand x after brand x cross the finish line. Plus without factory competition and investment, how financially healthy will racing be?
There is another model, of course. NASCAR is a marketing program built on fakery. Its crate cars painted to look like “Camry” or whatever have nothing to do with cars running on the street. Means nothing to me. Just a waste of Speed Channel airtime.
steve w says
Thank you for some coverage of Flat Track. It is one of the best series in the world but gets so little respect these days.
4Cammer says
Thanks for posting the pics. Best racing in the world.
John says
Walt, I agree with you about NASCAR, my dad used to take my brother and I to the Riverside 500 back around 63-66. Those were REAL stock cars.
Chris R. says
Joe won this race by .531 seconds and the back tire was absolutely thrashed by the end of the 20 lap main. Sammy Halbert didn’t hand this win to Joe, it was a hard fought battle the entire race with a lot of position changes throughout. There were a lot of different makes in the field. I wish Shawn Baer would’ve made the main with his Triumph. I’ve never heard a sound like that before, the Triumph’s parallel twin ripping down the front straight! Overall, it was a great race with a great crowd, perfect weather. I am definitely going back in October when the series comes back to Yavapai Downs!
PeteP says
It takes a great rider to beat HD at this game. Remember, Kopp (former Champ) was let go by HD at the beginning of the year when the bean counters cut the “Wrecking Crew”. Vengeance is sweet.
Scott S says
I was looking at the same thing as hoyt. They must use the engine as a stressed member somehow or it would be all over the track.
David/Cigarrz says
Racing the way it should be, build what you think will win and then go prove it. Doesn’t matter a whit that it doesn’t fit the Ducati styling.
Tom Pruden says
Back in the days of thr KR’s there was another configuration that sometimes won.The 500 single (ie Dick Klamfoth).The sound was incredible,the best I ever heard was a BSA Goldstar, I think it was Eddie Varnes’ machine, on the1/2 mile at Columbus (the best cushion track ever thanks to Bud’s track service Springfield).Thoses over-reving singles seemed hook-up and pull really hard off the turns.”Ridn’ the flywheels?” I guess Harley BS is nothing new.
j from va says
re: “the seat”……for the love of God man, don’t stick an XR seat on it. I’ll take it just as it is.
steve says
i dont understand how the ducati could be 750, its a ds1000 motor, i have the same motor in my sport classic. the seat off of that bike is from a sport classic with the pad extended. except for the seat and motor, the other stuff is custom or other wise not ducati.
steve says
sorry its the 1100 evo motor
Skizick says
Harley BS,
Ridin’ the Flywheels is in reference to the way any motorcycle behaves when the ass end is hung out and a controled slide is preformed. This BS has been around as long as riders have been gettin’ out of shape in the turns. It is in by no means HD in nature. The gyroscopic nature of any given machine is the culmination of all the spinning masses and their relation to each other. The more lined up all those gyro’s centers are, the easier it is to get the feel of them as they manifest their presents in this hung out state. HD’s, and Indians both lend themselves to this task well. Better than most. Dick Manns BSA, or Gary Nixon’s Triumph may have had this attribute as well, you’d have to ask them. I myself don’t know the feeling first hand. To pitch a bike sideways and catch it in the turn at enough speed to enter into that realm where Ridin’ the Flywheels lives, eludes me. It takes more ferrous material in one’s shorts than I possess….
john shuck says
take a good look..It will soon be banned
John says
Just read on Autoblog that the Ducati is an 1100cc. So what is the big deal about an 1100cc OHC bike barely by 1/10ths sec beating a 750cc pushrod motor thats been around for 40 years?
Narflar says
The XR-750 is a race spec engine with modifications. That is the only race spec engine allowed. The Ducati, by the rules can only be a stock motor. So what if the 750 is a pushrod engine. I bet it puts out similar horsepower to the duc. Plus it goes to show that the 750 is a beast if a 1100cc bike is a big deal when it wins. It’s not like higher displacement bikes are dominating the sport.
Mule says
On the seat comment, I don’t think it should have an XR Harley seat! I just said it was ugly. However, that big round tailsection that comes from the Ducati retro street models looks grotesque on the streetbikes as well. The reason most racers use the XR deign of seat is because 95% of them are made by First Klass Glass. Jack Warren, the guy who makes them, provides a flawless quality proudct that is structurally very robust. Most of the bikes are push started and you can push on these seats. Champion and Woods seats incorporate an external rear loop adding weight(steel) where you don’t want it and in frequent crashes, breaks the seat AND bends the frame. While an XR seat usually just breaks some fiberglass.
The Knight style seats aren’t structurally as strong, so most guys end up throwing on an XR seat. Having a huge wide, bulbous, hollow seat on a dirttracker usually means it will collect up wet, sticky track dirt and at the end of a race will add a considerable amount of weight which is a most negative factor. So anything would be better than that.
That said, there is a minor trend for the Milers to upsize the top of the seats in attempt to get better air off of the rider. At speeds over 100mph, the air behind the rider is a critical area. I don’t think a wide, round seat would help, but I could be wrong.
Now if Kopp starts winnig a bunch of races with that, all the Harleys will be running them and/or they will be outlawed.
John says
Narflar, I agree that the XR 750 is a beast, but “race spec” doesn’t mean that much when comparing a 40 year old pushrod motor against a modern desmo valved motor.Cam profile?, compression ratio?, or blue printed? A modern Ducati motors build tolerences and compression ratio are probably comparable to the XR and I’m sure those motors are blue printed anyway. I just think it shows the genius of that XR motor and the Harley Vtwin desighn that a lot of Harley haters like to belittle.
Mike says
Who cares what the seat looks like. The reason Harley dominated for decades had to do do with their influence on the AMA rule makers. They even prevented a privateer from competing with a Sportster short stroked to 750 a year before they came out with their XR750. Honda got tired of the constant rule changes to benefit HD & quit after proving they could win.
John says
You mean after building 2 different designs of thier own that were unsuccesful and then buying an XR750 motor and copying everything, the V angle 45deg the bore and stroke but adding OHCs to the mix.Yea Harley had an unfair advantage, a better motor, thats why all these 1000cc and 1100cc OHC 4v motors can’t beat them.
Skizick says
Talk about ‘ridin the flywheels’, how about a Honda U3-X The drive wheel is a trip. Hope they make an off road version. Maybe one for the MILE.
Mike says
When HD only had 750 flat heads the competition with OHV were restricted to 500cc. This of course was modified for HD when they were about to launch the XR750. This rule change was delayed for a year due to the privateer who beat them to the punch with the short stroke Sportster. No other motorcycle manufacturer built a flat track specific motor. The only way to build a competitive flat tracker that would not be subjected to restrictions by HDs influence on the rule book was to build an XR copy.This turned flat track into a “one horse” race & resulted in it`s decline in popularity. The XR is a beautiful motor. 50 years of development is a handicap ??.
Bill 86x says
Bob Blair and Steve Zabara would be proud. ZDS distributers.
Danny_C says
Hell yeah, i got to watch the win at Yavapi Downs in AZ.
It was intense race, Kopp was pulling on those straights but Halbert was very fast all day. Heres some of my own pics from the race
Enjoy http://www.flickr.com/photos/dan_dan2/sets/72157623854719509/
Aichbe says
The XR 750 is a pushrod engine that has been perfected since 1970 for nothing other than what it does, flat track. It makes as much as 90 HP. The rpm range where it makes power is right where it needs to be for that frame to put it to the ground at any point on the track, other than flat out top speed at the end of the straights. It has taken the LLoyd bros. a while to get the Duc working this well, but it has to work in the corners as well as an XR. I’m sure they will get there, especially if the factory gets interested…