Details have just been released for the all new Ducati 1199 Panigale Superquadro engine, a real overachiever among 2 cylinder engines, the L-twin produces 195hp @ 10,750 rpm and 98.1 lb-ft @ 9,000 rpm! There are a lot of technical details, some of which I’ve highlighted at the start, but this really is an all new engine with enormous power for a twin and lots of changes sure to interest the Ducati folks, and everyone else, for that matter. The built in decompressor is pretty cool, the bore/stroke ratio is extreme and the power output is very impressive. Check it out.
Quick overview:
- Bore and stroke are 112mm x 60.8mm for a bore stroke ratio of 1.84:1, an ultra short stroke over square configuration.
- The cylinders have been rotated backwards around the crankcases by 6°, the front cylinder is 21° from horizontal so the engine is 32mm further forwards for improved front / rear weight distribution
- separate nikasil-coated aluminium “wet-liners†inserted into the tops of the crankcase apertures enables attachment of the cylinder head directly to the crankcase
- shell main bearings like those on the Desmosedici
- Intake valves increased from 43.5 to 46.8mm and exhaust valves from 34.5 to 38.2mm.
- oval throttle body dimensions increased from an equivalent diameter of 63.9 to 67.5mm
- desmo drive belts replaced with a combined chain and gear-drive arrangement
- On the end of each exhaust cam drive gear is a centrifugal flyweight which retracts at
speeds below tick-over to rotate a “protrusion†from the concentric section of the cam,
creating sufficient inlet valve lift to act as a de-compressor. This enables the Superquadro engine to be started easily without using a larger battery and starter motor. When the engine starts and the camshafts begin to rotate at tick-over speed, the centrifugal flyweight flicks out, retracting the “protrusion†back into the cam and allowing complete valve closure for full compression. - wet slipper clutch
 More from the press release and more images below:
The most extreme benchmark ever The innovative Superquadro engine, so called because of its massively over-square bore and stroke ratio, has increased power to an absolute production twin-cylinder milestone of 195hp and torque to 98.1 lb-ft (13.5kgm) with user-friendly Riding Modes that deliver that power appropriate to the rider’s style and environment. Its construction has enabled a radical reduction in overall vehicle weight and, further identifying Ducati’s constant pursuit of performance perfection, major services have been extended to 24,000km (15,000 miles).
With the engine designed to be a fully stressed member of the chassis, its architecture has been completely re-calculated to provide the best possible vehicle construction for layout, weight distribution and strength. The cylinders, which remain at 90° to each other, have been rotated backwards around the crankcases by a further 6°, until the front cylinder is 21° from horizontal. This has enabled the engine to be positioned 32mm further forwards for improved front / rear weight distribution in addition to perfectly positioning the cylinder head attachment points for the 1199 Panigale’s monocoque frame.
The crankcases, which are vacuum die-cast using Vacural® technology to ensure optimal weight saving, consistent wall thickness and increased strength, also incorporate in their form the outer water-jacket of the “cylinderâ€, eliminating the jointing face that used to exist at the base of the cylinders. Instead, the Superquadro has separate nikasil-coated aluminium “wet-liners†inserted into the tops of the crankcase apertures. This design enables secure fixing of the cylinder head directly to the crankcase, improved sealing and enhanced heat dissipation from the thin cylinder-liners directly into the surrounding coolant.
The primary-drive casing, clutch casing and outer cover, sump and cam covers are all cast in magnesium alloy, ensuring a lightweight engine despite its increased strength as an integral part of the chassis.
In addition to cylinder position, the crankcases now use shell main bearings for the crankshaft, previously only used by Ducati on the Desmosedici RR engine. Removing the roller bearings has enabled an increase in diameter of the crank journals for enhanced rigidity and an increase the crankcase section around the main bearing area for improved strength in line with the Superquadro’s extreme power output. The shell bearings are force fed oil from internal drillings within the main bearing pillars to keep the new crankshaft well lubricated and is quickly scavenged back into the sump with the introduction of a new Ducati feature, a highly efficient MotoGP-style vacuum pump.
The pump is driven by the main oil pump shaft and effectively maintains constant vacuum in the crankcase area below the pistons, reducing atmospheric resistance during the downstroke of the piston and controlling the internal “breathing†of the engine.
In calculating the optimum configuration to achieve the next big step forward in power output for the L-twin engine, Ducati and Ducati Corse engineers increased engine speed and enhanced breathability with the incredible bore and stroke of 112mm x 60.8mm. The intense study of power and ridability resulted in an output of 195hp @ 10,750rpm and 98.1 lb-ft (13.5kgm) @ 9,000rpm. The new bore and stroke ratio of 1.84:1 effectively increases rpm with the ultra-short stroke of the crankshaft and increases the cylinder area to enable increased valves diameters. Inlet valves have increased from 43.5 to 46.8mm and exhaust valves from 34.5 to 38.2mm.
With such large inlet valves operating at higher rpm, the intense inertial forces have been controlled by using titanium instead of steel, a solution only previously used on full “R†models. The new valves are actuated by racing-derived rocker arms, ‘super-finished’ for reduced friction and fatigue and then coated in polymeric-like carbon (PLC), a process originally developed for the aerospace industry.
The race-derived Superquadro pistons have a distinctive double-ribbed undercrown to achieve high strength and reduced friction by using minimal piston wall surface area. Using technology developed by Ducati Corse, the design enables reliable operation of the 112mm diameter pistons when performing at high rpm.
The improved volumetric efficiency of the increased inlet valve diameters is further capitalised on by increasing the oval throttle body dimensions from an equivalent diameter of 63.9 to a massive and high-flowing 67.5mm. The Ride-by-Wire throttle bodies feed air across twin injectors per cylinder, one positioned below the butterfly for enhanced flexibility and one above for outright power.
With such enhanced “breathingâ€, the challenge for the Superquadro’s Design Engineers was to program performance-optimised fuel mapping for a smoother cycle-to-cycle engine operation, without compromising emissions. To achieve this, Ducati introduced a secondary air system that completes the oxidization of unburned hydrocarbons and effectively reduces HC and CO levels. The system is activated when the engine ECU recognises specific conditions in the engine’s operation via the lambda and throttle opening sensors. It then opens a valve enabling a flow of clean air from the main airbox to a reed valve situated in each cylinder head, which enables one-way flow into an air gallery exiting into the exhaust port close to the exhaust valve. Entering the hottest point of the exhaust gasses, the freshcharge of air enhances the burn environment, eliminating any unburned fuel that escapes during the exhaust cycle under certain conditions.
With such an extreme engine, never before has Ducati’s unique Desmodromic system been so vitally important. With the high engine speeds at which the Superquadro operates combined with such large valves, it would be impossible for the valve’s rocker-arm to follow the steep closure profile of the cam lobe using normal valve closure springs. The Desmo system actuates valve closure mechanically with the same method and accuracy as it opens, enabling steep cam profiles, radical cam timings, large valves and high operating speeds. This system is used on every single Ducati motorcycle and is constantly proven on Ducati Corse’s World Superbikes and Desmosedici MotoGP bikes.
Controlling such large valves with the precise Desmodromic system also led engineers to replace the original belt-drive concept, used since the introduction of the Ducati Pantah in 1979, with a combined chain and gear-drive arrangement. The conventional bush-type chain runs from the crankshaft to the cylinder head where a single sprocket positioned between inlet and exhaust camshafts, is attached back-to-back to a gear wheel mounted on its own short, dedicated shaft. The attached gear meshes directly with gears on the ends of both the inlet and exhaust camshafts, which are also designed with +/- position adjustment for ultra-precise cam-calibration. The cam chain, therefore, provides highly efficient point-to point drive route and, tensioned automatically, provides continuous reliability and further reducing the cost of routine maintenance.
On the end of each exhaust cam drive gear is a centrifugal flyweight which retracts at speeds below tick-over to rotate a “protrusion†from the concentric section of the cam, thus creating sufficient inlet valve lift to act as a de-compressor. This ingenious device enables the Superquadro engine to be started easily without using a larger battery and starter motor, which has reduced overall vehicle weight by approximately 3.3kg (7.3lb).
When the engine starts and the camshafts begin to rotate at tick-over speed, the centrifugal flyweight flicks out, retracting the “protrusion†back into the cam and allowing complete valve closure for full compression. This innovative feature further underlines the lengths to which designers and engineers have worked together in the single-minded pursuit of weight-saving.
Ducati’s engineers also capitalised on the opportunity of the “blank canvas†project to increase dimension between the centres of the six-speed gearbox shafts, enabling larger diameter, stronger gears to transmit the enhanced power output. New for a top-of-therange Ducati Superbike is a “wetâ€, oil-bath clutch. Based very closely on the design of the Multistrada and Diavel components, the clutch assembly features a “slipper†function and a progressive self-servo mechanism that compresses the friction plates when under drive from the engine. While enhancing frictional efficiency, this also results in a rider-friendly light clutch lever “feel†at the handlebar. Conversely, when the drive force is reversed (over-run), the mechanism reduces pressure on the friction plates, enabling a true racing “slipper†action, reducing the destabilizing effect of the rear-end under aggressive downshifting and provide a much smoother feeling when closing the throttle or down-shifting under normal riding conditions.
B50 Jim says
Cor Blimey! There’s one I want to hear at full song! Tons of innovation, exotic materials and a radical bore-stroke ratio all show that a V-twin engine needn’t give nothing away to a multi. It’s a true V-twin for the early 21st century. Meanwhile, the folks over at H-D soldier on with their V-twin for the early 20th century. It’s a stark illustration of the differences in outlook and vision between two motorcycle companies.
Doug says
Duh. Where (why) the hell did that come from?
martin says
I think it’s Milwaukee… =P
Ole says
The idea of casting the crank and cylinder jackets together is previously used by Britten….
hoyt says
That was an entertaining read. There are many cool descriptions of this motor from the piston size to the reed valve (‘air gallery’).
Good job Ducati. I will miss the steel chassis.
Matt says
Very nice. Maybe H-D will replace their Porshe engine with this one for the next generation V-Rod in 2030 =).
Fretka says
Once again, Ducati pulls a rabbit out of their hat. Just the right balance of tradition and new tech, BUT, I will really miss the sound of an obnoxious dry clutch rattling and ringing! The aftermarket to the rescue!
As an aside, it’s interesting that they chose to keep the iconic SSSwingarm and loose the also iconic trellis frame. I suppose the swing-arm is more visible than the traditional red roundstock.
The King is dead, long live the King.
Rollem Easi says
Comparing a Ducati to a Harley is an apple to oranges comparison.
One is designed for extreme high performance in a lightweight chassis, the other for durability, high mileage, and low rpm torque delivery for a heavier vehicle.
To indicate that one is exclusively superior to the other demonstrates a lack of design engineering knowledge.
ZXRacer says
LOL… did u say Harley and Durability… LOL
martin says
no, no… a proper “lack of engineering knowledge” is demonstrated while signing on the order for a HD.
Gary Perry says
A paradigm from the old days states that horsepower is directly proportional to the cube root of the number of cylinders, all other factors being the same e.g. bore/stroke ratio, stroke/con rod ratio, air/fuel system, valve control (OHV, DOHC, etc.). The proportion also holds true for the area of the bore (not quite that simple, but very similar). An example of this relationship is the Lotus/Ford Cortina motor of the 60’s which was very oversquare. The problems with pursuing this sort of design were the poor positioning of the piston in the cylinder (cocking), the strength and mass of the poppet valves, and the long flame front during combustion. Modern technology has solved these and other problems with fuel injection, multi valve heads, low friction cylinder materials (allowing longer piston skirts), improved ignition sources and a much better understanding of the combustion and propagation processes in a piston engine. Well done Ducati.
Tim says
I thought it would need two sparkplugs to deal with the combustion issues (huge bore, short stroke implying high revs aided by desmo): I see only one sparkplug hole too. (which looks to be a pig to get at by the way)
Jake says
“separate… “wet-liners†inserted into the tops of the crankcase apertures enables attachment of the cylinder head directly to the crankcase”…
John Britten and his team did this in the 90s. If only his bike and his ideas ended up in production… He was chasing the magic 200hp for a 1000cc twin as well. Amazing man, dream and bike.
Not to detract from this beautiful engine though! Some serious advances here. Still like the look of the Ducati air-cooled twins better though!
Mark in Sydney says
A beautiful engine, though I find it a shame that we continue to go down this route. It isn’t just Ducati, but most of the top-end toy makers. The market wants Power, and more of it! This is true for cars as well where a performance car these days without 500+bhp is a nothing machine. For bikes, the magic is now 180+bhp, up from 130bhp at the turn of the millennium.
Far too much. A lard-filled 2001 VFR 800 produces around 100bhp, will top 150mph, will tour happily with two and gear. When are we going to realize that all this wonderful design effort should be channeled in a different direction?
Naive, ain’t I?
Tin Man says
Mark, I Agree 100%, The Tech is fun to read about but who can handle that type of power?? Maybe 1% of the buyers? I’m no tree hugger God knows, But can you imagine what Ducati could do if this enginering effort was put into something usefull like maybe Fuel Economy,or really good linked brakes with anti lockup.
Jack says
Ducati does race motorcycles in addition to building street bikes.
mxs says
Sure they do … but what does have a street bike to do with Checa’s winning machine?
It’s just seems to be the opposite what the wise public is asking for. which is in this case would be to use the marvelous technology and produce a small cc bike much less powerfull than this one, but also much lighter ….
It reminds me of the megapixel war in digital photography. the more is better, until you find out that you cannot use the extra cramped pixels from a small chip …. the same way you cannot use the power and speed on the street, which should eliminate 99% of people who’d buy such bike (it doesn’t and I guess they know it …., but it will also never make people like me ever open their wallet to buy such a bike).
Blair says
I think you’re over estimating the wisdom of the public. Numbers like pixels and power sell because they afford the buyer bragging rights.
That said I’m pretty excited about this motor, even though it will be a long way out of my reach. One reason is I’m a big fan of twins in sport bikes and without Ducati championing their cause then who else is. Inline 4’s are powerful, smooth and easy to use but don’t come close to the sound of a high performance twin.
Jack says
what does a streetbike have to do with a WSB winning machine? Pretty much everything since the rules to race in that series require the bikes to be based on a production model. That series also happens to align itself with a huge buying market of street bike enthusiasts.
If your next question is why does the race series have to be based on a production bike, then I can’t help you.
This example of pushing the envelope is just one platform within a relatively small company. It is not as though you can’t pick up a variety of small bikes now from numerous OEMs (or very light, capable air-cooled twins from Ducati).
There is a market gap for 400-500cc performance, light weight bikes, but the market for the end of the spectrum is greater at the moment.
mxs says
How is the market for the end of spectrum (large cc sportbikes bikes)??? It has never been smaller, with traffic and emission’s laws getting stricter and stricter and gasoline getting more and more expensive. It makes zero sense. The bling of riding a fast and powerful bike slow to the nearest coffee shop wears off real fast …..
Checa’s machine is based on production bike. But the things Checa is looking for are very different than any other ordinary Joe running that sort of a bike on the street.
It’s a wonderful engine, but why do I need 195 horses, so I can wind up the first gear and than do what???
mxs says
High megapixels bragging rights? Not me …. I laugh at people with consumer cameras and 10 megapixels to play with. Because they are fools ….
Eric says
I own one of those lard filled VFR’s you talk about! A 2001 model with luggage and sometimes a passenger as well. It is a great sport-touring bike and mine has so many miles it is UN-sellable….
However, I absolutely love the fact that people are even mentioning the 1199 engine and “too much horsepower” in the same sentence, especially from a twin! Just SIC!
I cannot wait to crack the throttle on one of these kickass machines!
Boog says
Being an old geezer, I can remember back in the ’60’s when some automotive journalist quipped that “allowing” a member of the unwashed masses to own the Pontiac Catalina with the 421 engine would be akin to giving “junior” an atomic bomb for Christmas.
Most people are not going to ante up the cash necessary for a bike like this, and the ones who do will be able to handle this type of power, or at least have the sense not to get killed with it….
As always, this is a great gadget for the gadgeteer from a company that has always produced interesting machines for the mechanically minded.
Nicolas says
Well, I’d guess it’s not a technical need that pushes the OEMs to build bigger stronger faster, but the marketing need and customers’ expectations. But it’s not only in the motorcycle’s world, look around … does a soccer mom really need a 3.5 liter V6 to haul to kids to school and get the groceries ? Do you really need a V8 to commute to work every day ? I was in Germany a couple of weeks ago, drove my rental car on th autobahn in a breeze @ 200 km/h (125 mph ?) , guess what, it was a just a Ford Focus with a 4 inline 1.6 liter engine, really far from a supercharged V8 that you expect in any sports car in the US today … We can argue all day about the endless race for useless performance and out-of-reach capabilities, but it’s always been like that, it will never end … Ducati once again deomostrated their mastership of mechanical wizardry …
steve w says
I haven’t figured out how anyone with a super high top end motorcycle or car can have a drivers license or insurance for long. The insurance companies killed the muscule car years ago so I can see this happening again for anything streetable as they are returning.
BigHank53 says
Muscle cars didn’t get giant insurance markups because they were fast, they were charged higher rates because they were cheap, and any half-wit with a driver’s license could buy one. And they did, and drove them like half-wits.
If you can afford this Ducati, you can either afford the insurance for it, or afford to ride it without a collision policy. Liability insurance in the US is priced by displacement and driving record, not individual motorcycle models.
QrazyQat says
Riffing on what Mark in Sydney said:
Back on my ranting about mid-size bikes again. Sorry 🙂 And not “mid-size” like 600cc, but say 300cc. Imagine what an engine like this could do if designed to be sized at 300cc. Presumably about 1/4 the hp or about 50hp. Light bike, plenty fast (my H1 back in the day would have had somewhere around 45hp at the rear wheel from what I understand; plenty fast).
I can understand Ducati or other speciality manufacturers not doing this, because that’s not their market and part of how they do things is to get the free publicity that comes from having super powerful bikes. They also need a very expensive bike to pay for the design and development costs of relatively small runs. It’s probably simply not possible for them even if they wanted to; it’d certainly be a big risk for them. So it’d probably have to be Honda, Yamaha, or Kawasaki probably, as things stand now. But I think it would make for one hell of a great bike, both sport bike and the old standard (done as a sort of street-tracker look with a bigger tank, for my taste); even a small touring bike (how much weight and pwer do you need to cross the country? what you need is not too much vibration and good reliability). One a lot of people could love, and use. You’d have to be content with a mere 120mph and 100mph+ quarter miles, of course. I could live with that sacrifice.
BigHank53 says
The problem is that it would hardly cost less than the big bike, what with all the tech and complex machining and lots of parts. You and I might buy the 300cc 50hp 280lb wonderbike….but 97% of the other customers will look at the GS500 that makes just as much power, and leaves you with enough spare change to pick up a CBR1000RR.
Zippy says
B50 jim you seem to have an issue with HDs sucess. They build the bikes thier customer want and will pay for. Are you suggesting HD build this motor? Why not comment that Duc refuses to build big heavy slow low tech air cooled bikes to try to capture a tiny amount of HDs huge market share. HD sells 10,000 bike for ever 10 Duccati sells.
Thier sales are up 3.5% in this tough ecomony. The $20,000 Street Glide FLHX is the single best selling MC in the country. Bar non.
Please do not turn every posting into a HD bash.
Modena West says
It will be interesting to see how practical the frame does in the real world. Two questions: 1) how does a dealer “inspect” a frame for damage? Given the fragile nature of carbonfiber (CF) — a bike falling off the sidestand could incur microfractures that later become cracks/tears. What affect does chemicals, sunshine, etc have on the long-term durability? (my background is in the CF world of bicycles); 2) if the CF subframes needs to be swapped — who does it — the dealership? How would they align the parts to quantify geometry and alignment without manufacturing jigs post re-assembly?
I will buy one as soon as they arrive. But I’m sure the insurance rates will go insane 6+ months later once damage claims are starting to be paid by insurance companies and they realize the cost of replacement parts needed. It happened with my Acura NSX once a few were crashed and the insurance companies discovered they were difficult to fix and very few people could do — the rates skyrocketed then.
Giolli Joker says
@Modena West
“Base” model of the 1199Panigale will have an aluminum alloy “frame/airbox” not CF… that material probably will be used for the more specialized versions (S and/or R).
But I guess we should wait till the Milan show (EICMA, 2nd week of November) to have some answers.
Fretka says
BTW… how about a kickstarter for those real “macho” types. That ought to hurt!
Bjorn says
@Fretka: The boss and head mechanic used to stand and watch me kickstart any old bevel drive I worked on, reminiscing about kick start related injuries like broken ankles they had seen in voices loud enough for me to hear. The Superquadro wouldn’t just break your ankle if it kicked back, it would fracture your pelvis and launch you into orbit all at the same time. But I’m with you; as soon as I saw the decompresser, I thought, “Ditch the starter and run a battery only big enough to run the fuel pump and electronics package.
What an awesome motor Ducati have produced! I look forward to seeing the whole bike and then it running in the World Super Bikes in 2013.
hoyt says
funny. good comments.
Paulinator says
This is a complete redirect of the recent trend in long-stroke motor development. Somehow I doubt that Honda got it all wrong, however. I would like to see what the actual BSFC numbers are. If they are good, then they can package that technology and globalize it. The less than ideal combustion chambers, by-passed air chambers and re-burn technology tell me that this motor drinks a lot of fuel….Too bad.
QrazyQat says
“Somehow I doubt that Honda got it all wrong, however.”
Betting on Honda getting engine tech wrong in any major way would not be a wise move, would it? 🙂
Bill says
I like the way the flywheel balance weights have to be shaped to miss the piston 🙂
Bill
Doug S. says
Good eye. Another nice component to this intriguing motor. Very interested in the sound those massive pistons will make.
Steve says
“QrazyQat:
Imagine what an engine like this could do if designed to be sized at 300cc. Presumably about 1/4 the hp or about 50hp. Light bike, plenty fast…”
Sounds good, low weight, nimble steering to wring it out some on curvy roads but enough wheelbase and rake it doesn’t twitch around like a 150 scooter… and make it a 350 for old times’ sake!
—————————————————————————
“Mark in Sydney:
Far too much. A lard-filled 2001 VFR 800 produces around 100bhp, will top 150mph, will tour happily with two and gear. When are we going to realize that all this wonderful design effort should be channeled in a different direction?”
Have a ’96 VFR750 and agree… in fact THAT is too much most of the time! The only place I get even close to wringing it out is on the interstate until remembering my drivers’ license and skin are in peril!
But development has to begin somewhere, hopefully in a place that can justify the costs incurred, as by racing success and the cachet it offers.
One can only hope the technology would trickle down. 😉
Lincoln says
I think most Ducati people are a fairly conservative bunch. A big departure from what theyre used too may not be a good thing and from what I’ve seen of the 1199, its a radical departure indeed. I think back to the 749/999 Ducs which turned many fans away until the 1098 was released. Really, it can have all the horsepower in the world and go round a race track in record times but if it looks like crap …. well lets just hope Ducati got it right. A couple of weeks and we’ll all know!
B50 Jim says
Zippy —
First, I’m a huge fan of Zippy the Pinhead (even if i don’t understand much of it), so if that’s where you took your post name, you’re OK in my book.
I don’t begrudge H-D its success, and I hope they sell everything they build and keep building it in the USA; God know we need all the American jobs we can get. If their sales keep growing, good on them.
My comments contrasting Ducatis’ Superquadro with H-D’s engines was meant to point out that Harley’s pace of innovation is glacial at best, and as their demographic ages and quits riding, the Motor Company will need more than image and tradition to sell bikes. Sure, they’re doing fine now, but will they do fine 10 years from now with their same old air-cooled V-twins, when a younger, tech-savvy market has alternatives more in tune with its way of thinking? Also, there’s the spectre of more stringent regulations on emissions, both exhaust and noise. Solving those problems requires a big dose of technology, and if H-D hasn’t invested in technological upgrades, it will have to buy it elsewhere, thus diluting its image. Sure, it has its V-Rod engine, but that hasn’t captured its core market’s heart. The company doesn’t have to abandon its tried-and-true, 45-degree Big Twin formula, but it will have to bring it into the new century, and so far hasn’t shown much inclination to do so. I want H-D to survive and thrive, and I would love to see a vibrant American market for American bikes. Sure, I ride ancient English iron, but that’s my quirky choice. American riders deserve a choice as well, and Harley should make sure it is part of that choice going forward.
BigHank53 says
HD has tried innovation, and both the company and its customers haven’t cared for it. I know plenty of HD riders in their thirties with 25+ years of motorcycle purchasing ahead of them–I do not think that HD needs to scramble for market share by introducing lots of new products.
Harley isn’t a motorcycle company anymore. They’ve become a lifestyle company that happens to manufacture motorcycles as an integral component of that lifestyle. A diehard football fan–one who has made football part of his life with season tickets, tailgating, etc–may switch teams. But he isn’t going to suddenly follow water polo or gymnastics because the NFL hasn’t “innovated”.
hoyt says
@BigHank53
“may switch teams” & “isn’t going to suddenly follow water polo…”
One can interpret that analogy as:
switching brands of motorcycle but not switching motorcycling for another hobby.
Isn’t fear of losing existing customers and failing to attract new customers part of why most brands continue to research and develop at least one model?
QrazyQat says
Your last is so, but I think what’s at the bottom of BigHank53’s comments is that HD is in a corner, and has been for quite some time (many decades now). They need to innovate for the future but they can’t because each time they have their customers stay away. They’d have to reinvent themselves and if they did they’d be competing with the big Japanese companies as well as firmly entrenched smaller ones like Ducati and Triumph, as well as upstarts like Motus who don’t have the baggage that the HD name has.
They’ve managed to keep it going for a long long time really — they’re basically managing to sell updated 1968 Sportsters and that’s quite a feat since their bikes were already wilting, performance-wise, once the late 69-70s superbikes happened. But they’ve done it by painting themselves into a corner, and it doesn’t seem like they have any way out. How much longer can they go on doing that?
It seems they have to change but change will kill them. That’s one hell of a dilemma.
BigHank53 says
What does Harley need to change for? Who is demanding that they introduce new products? They sell all the bikes they make now. They sell them to people who aren’t worried about power-to-weight ratios and zero-to-sixty times.
The corner they’ve painted themselves into is quite roomy, well-furnished, and equipped with plenty of well-heeled customers. Why should they venture out into the jungle of cutthroat 600cc race-reps?
Some people–lots of them actually–enjoy chugging around on a heavy, low-powered, American-built tank. Why shouldn’t they be able to buy the bikes they want?
Hooligan says
Don’t compare Ducati wuth Triumph. For every Ducati sold Triumph sell ten. And now they are always on the cusp of model innovation – like the Tiger 800’s. The Street Triple was a inspired move. In some ways that was no different to the Japanese parts bin specials (Honda Hornet/Suzuki Bandit) that made them so much money in sales – take a old Sports bike engine, detune it a bit for every day useful power. But the Striple punches way above it’s weight. I was out at the weekend riding with Striples and a 919 MV Augusta Brutale. The expensive piece of (admittedly lovely) Italian machinery could not outdo the Striples on the twisties of South East England.
QrazyQat says
How long can they sell those bikes? The thing is, the way their customers have reacted, they can’t even stray far from what type of engine they can use. This restricts them, and they’ve managed to survive amazingly well considering they have to live with much restricted design possibilities than anyone else.
For instance, although Ducati has been known for singles and then twins, would their customers desert them if they came up with a well done innovative multi? Possible but I think probably not, because Ducati’s rep is for a sporty bike, not a bike that has just this number of cylinders in just this configuration, etc. And Ducati is more restricted in what their customers expect than many companies. Imagine, for instance, that electric bikes really got a big advance in batteries etc. that made them attractive for any rider as far as range. I could see the big Japanese companies making them, and I could even see a company like Ducati doing it, but Harley? Would their customers accept it, when they won’t even accept a realtively minor variation in engines?
It’ll be interesting to see how far Harley can take this, and sure, Checker Motors built cars for a long time too :), but Harley is in a bind for the future. The only question is how far away that future is.
Adam says
We are on the cusp of another industrial revolution. The next generation(s) of people will by default be tech-savvy, because it’s becoming a requirement to be able to live in this world. As a school teacher in industrial tech and engineering I see the massive paradigm shift in our curriculum towards technology, and teaching sustainability through creating efficiency. I’m just making assumptions here, but I’ll take an educated guess that a tech-savvy generation of people who ride bikes are going to want to be entertained and amazed by new and highly efficient technology in their machines, whatever the power output may be (I know I am). HD may have a large market now, but if their target market starts wanting more than “bad ass” street cred and the same old machines, they will be in serious trouble if they don’t address it by catering to the desires of a market full of tech heads.
JoeGo says
I feel like we’re forgetting about the diversity of the motorcycle market. Yes there are people who disregard HD’s because of their aged design and yes there are people eager to eat up the latest and greatest bikes, but there wil for a long while be people who love HD’s for more than what the bike offers as far as statistics go. When someone buys an HD they are buying into the whole steriotypical social epitome of a “biker” and this becomes an alternative persona that they can fulfill anytime they want. These two types of people are often polar opposites of each other and wouldn’t relate to the tradition and qualities sought after in the purchasing of a motorcycle.