It’s always enjoyable to get the new motorcycle magazines in my digital inbox, so when Cycle World showed up yesterday I took a few minutes to run through the mag and see what was new. There is a review of the Confederate Hellcat by John Burns which quickly had me scratching my head. He complained it was too loud, which is quite possible, didn’t handle like a sportbike which makes sense and the engine runs so bad, missing and fouling plugs, he could hardly manage to get around town. That last part was interesting since it colored his review to the point where he just ripped the bike apart. OK, maybe it’s that bad.
Don Canet, in a one page follow up, took the bike to the dyno and drag strip where they first found a defective starter and ignition system which was fixed. After the fix the bike had 132 horsepower and 150 foot pounds of torque which resulted in a 10.59 second 127.85 mph pass at the drag strip. Measured top speed was 148 mph. Those are pretty stout numbers for a big V-Twin. One might have thought they would have confirmed all was well with the engine before John Burns took it for a road test.
Burns mentioned things like leaking brake fluid and a fine mist of unleaded escaping from the tank when it’s full and Canet said it was impossible to shift right until an update fixed the problem. During the top speed run the rear cylinder, piston and rings were damaged and needed to be repaired with a later production fix. Not a good experience, overall.
This particular bike was the first one produced in Birmingham, using many leftover parts from New Orleans and some problems might be expected but anyone buying a Confederate is going to be buying a hand built low volume bike and by its nature, each customer will be a test rider to some degree. This type of problem will never occur in a Honda, for instance, where low volume means under 100,000 units and problems are removed long before any new bikes hit the sales floor.
I had personal experience with low volume bikes and the problems they exhibit when I bought a Buell RS1200 back in 1989. It was number 5 of a production run of not many more. This was long before they were purchased by the mother Motor Company and the problems were continuous. I, too, had a gas filler that leaked fuel around the edges, a reserve indicator that simply said I had another mile or so before I was really out of gas, rear brake pads that literally fell out while riding down the street and front motor mounting studs that broke while I was waiting at a traffic light. There was a problem with the transmission that prevented finding neutral and a frame design that prevented the clutch cover from being removed without major disassembly of the motorcycle itself, which made the moderate transmission problem a major repair. The shock absorber was improperly filled with fluid and quality overall was awful. There was more, but you get the idea.
The most aggravating thing about this experience was that every time I called Buell, they were already aware of those problems from others who had experienced them before. The Internet and email were not as prevalent in ’89 as they are today and news traveled slowly.
The point of all this is that Buell improved over the years, … a lot. Those problems took longer to fix than they should have, a few lingered for years from what I’ve heard, but today Buell makes an excellent bike. Low production means problems are often found on the fly and fixed on customer bikes and Confederate may have much the same situation on their hands. When you drop that kind of money on a bike you hope for the best, but like the Buell in 1989, pricey meant exclusive not trouble free.
Maybe Cycle World will get another chance to review a more fully sorted example at some future date, although, too, I also think Confederate would have helped themselves a lot by going over the test bike to be sure it was tip top before handing it over to a magazine for review. Hindsight is such a wonderful thing.
Then again, maybe Burns was just having a bad day.
Larry Kahn says
“problem will never occur in a Honda”
CB750 drive chains busting cases
Various V-4 camshafts
Gold Wing frames
etc.
kneeslider says
substitute “far less likely to occur”
dave says
Hmm.
Well to come to Brian Case’s defense (to a point) They were dealing with training a couple of new guys in the construction of said Hellcat. The bikes are always gone over with a fine comb, and most (if not all) problems like those mentioned are taken care of before the bike ever hits the street for even a Company test ride. The fact of the matter is that all Confederates are hand-built one at a time. The final #’s mentioned in the follow-up are pretty close to what we’d expected from that new motor, and the exhaust being too loud is a result of the bigger engine. The first couple of bikes to come from Alabama were going to be “cross-over” model year changes with other improvements coming. Now, I can’t speak for Brian, or anyone else over there anymore, but I have to say, Confederates are still the best Gawd-Damn Big Twin streetbike on the planet. It is no Honda. Keep that in mind.
dave
rob says
why accept these kind of problems from any bike when a vastly better bike can be had for a lot less money.
could it be its the “look at me” value in something like this?
this can’t be serious motorycle.
Case says
No big deal on the Cycle World article. It’s not exactly the type of magazine you’d expect to find a Hellcat in. We thought they could handle it, so we went for it anyway. We gave them the only bike we had that was fully broken in, because we knew they would beat on it. What they won’t tell you, is they made 8 good passes on the drag stip before the piston blew. Usually when you’re that hard on a motor, you rebuild it.
Funny thing is, that was the first Hellcat we made in the new factory, and it’s also the same bike we gave to Jet Li for an upcoming action flick. We were there during filming, and the Hellcat spanked the piss out of a pack of angry samurai-adorned ninjas on…well, Ninjas.
The Motorcyclist article paints a slightly better picture of our struggles, but even that story has some holes. Regardless, we’re just happy to get the attention and we will persist. They can’t kill you if you’re already dead.
Thanks for digging a little deeper Kneeslider. We appreciate you support, always.
Brian
Chacoura says
Of course those bikes are trouble, look at the Hellcat and the Wraith, they are asking for it even, and that’s why they are so great. Hey, who’s not complaining about it’s computer, and they make millions of them. I’m dreaming of riding a Hellcat and saying that it is too loud is like saying a Pollock painting has too many dripping, nonsense. Sure, there are some quirk along the way, that’s why, assuming I had that kind of money, I’ll ask for the last in the line.
Johnny says
Burns can be a cranky little moto-journo and he has a long history of seriously abusing bikes but it does sound like some of the troubles should have been dealt with before handing it over.
The omission of the good drag runs is pretty piss poor journalism though.
Almost like he didn’t want to give the Hellcat a fair shake, maybe it scared him?
supermotoC says
Whoa! OK, first of all – How much does a Hellcat cost? OK, for THAT kind of $$, the customer expects what? I’ll tell you what they expect – a totally sorted out motorcycle.
For the $$, Confederate should ride & test the thing on a dyno to make sure it’s spot-on.
With a giant manufacturer, this isn’t possible – but with a small, +/- 100 units a year builder, this is a necessity. This Cycle World review will scare MANY potential buyers off, or at least make them look elsewhere first. Maybe it’s decent motorcycle, but if it’s not built well or tested or QC’ed, it’s not worth ANY amount of $$. That’s just business. Nevermind the fact that they gave an untested unit to Cycle World to TEST & REVIEW!!!!
Sure, everyone has a bad day, but Confederate EARNED that one. Live & learn – or don’t.
Matt Fisher says
Originally posted by Brian:
“What they won’t tell you, is they made 8 good passes on the drag strip before the piston blew. Usually when you’re that hard on a motor, you rebuild it.”
Maybe I missed the part where the Hellcat is a full-race Pro-stock drag bike capable of rewriting the AMA rulebooks. If that’s the case, then 8 good passes (yep, a full 2 miles at full throttle) would be considered darn good before rebuilding the motor.
Alas, it’s not a race bike, it’s mostly a conversation piece (given the lack of reliability, maybe it’s supposed to only be a conversation piece). Hopefully, Confederate gets their issues figured out and the Cycle World write-up can be a source of inspiration to make a better motorcycle, much as Buell has. Giving a non-sorted out motorcycle to a magazine that’s going to test it makes as much sense as giving a steak bone to your neighbor’s Rottweiller and expecting him not to chew on it.
Sid says
Brian, were the Ninjas you mentioned that got “spanked” 600cc Ninjas?
Cycleworld, were there 8 passes on the drag strip?
aaron says
I’ll side with both sides here. one day I’ll make a one-off bike with the hopes of selling a few copies of it. I would appreciate it if customers knew my development and testing budget were not in the same class as honda’s. that said, if bought a bike like the buell mentioned above, I would hope that the manufacturer had removed the clutch cover at some point in the design, mock up, or testing phase. anyone calling themselves an engineer would likely change the design in some way to accomodate servicing a component like this. my first thought as a customer would have been “did anyone ever test ride this design? or were there no engineers involved in the manufacture of this machine?” – not thoughts a customer should have to entertain for any amount of money, let alone lots of it.
delving into history, brough superior used to beat on machines before the customer could, working out flaws with EACH bike off the production line before a customer got it. after a servicing (having passed the tests), the bike was then delivered, with a promise that the bike would go 100mph. (about 190ish in the new math) I expect a bike to be run and perfected before taking delivery of it if the money is significant and the production is in double or low triple digits annually.
when I get my wraith, things had better be sorted out! 😉
Jim says
I have been captivated by motorcycles since my first ride at age 6. I am now 49. I have owned and operated multiple bikes over these years, from H-D to Buell, and including various Japanese builds. Motorcycling has become an almost spiritual experience for me, and it has absolutely nothing to do with name recognition, cost, or practical concerns like “picking up a quart of milkâ€, or “dropping off a kid at schoolâ€.
In all my years of biking, there has never been a machine that moves me as does my Confederate. To experience a Hellcat is like nothing else I have ever known, and I am not surprised that someone else may not understand it. My hat is off to the good people at Confederate Motor Company, and to their dedication and commitment to motorcycle design and performance. The quality of my life has been enriched by Confederate’s foresight. Thank you.
…..There is an ass for every seat. But there is not a seat for every ass hole.
James says
Hey Jim,
Yeah and there’s a tractor seat for you to spread the Confederate manure. It came on your bike.
“The Confederate experience is like nothing else I have ever known”? Not use to riding bikes that are performance oriented are you?
“Commitment to design and performance” from Confederate”?! This is a company seemingly without quality control, using 1936 Harley pushrod engine design, overweight chassis construction and cloaked in a southern bladge and attitude that says “only good ‘ol boys need apply”.
Wonder why this company is always in the red fiancially? Piss off a good portion of your potential customers with your name might be a factor. If seemingly small details like that are what Confederate dosen’t consider important, how can you trust them to produce a quality a 150mph bike?
Your hat is off to the good people at Confederate? I bet I’d look good crusin’ your hellcat with that pointy white hat too, till the swingarm snapped due to the built-up heat stress of running the exhaust through it.
Jim says
Thanks for your comments and concerns, James, even though I doubt they are genuine. Sounds more like you have an ax to grind than anything. First, I am not intending to be an advertisement for Confederate. I have absolutely no vested interest in Confederate or any motorcycle company or cycling magazine. I am a working class consumer who is passionate about my motorcycles, simple as that, and I have exercised this forum as a means to share my first hand experiences with you and others, take it or leave it. In 43 years of motorcycling I have owned and ridden a lot of bikes. A LOT of bikes. And over the past 6 yrs I have logged around 6000 miles on 3 different Confederate machines. It is no exaggeration to say that every time I ride one, … EVERY time I ride one, I am thoroughly impressed with it. Each has it’s own unique fingerprint, it’s own personality, temperament, & performance. It is what it is. And it’s not for everybody. It is not a bike on which to safely carry a quart of milk, or to passenger your kid to school. And if also like John Burns you are hoping to “feel all hip and Brad Pitt-ishâ€, you may be sadly disappointed. For me, the Confederate has been and is one hell of a bike. It is one fast bastard, and it corners like a raped ape. As to Confederate’s financials, I hope Confederate survives and thrives. Motorcycling purists like you and me (well, maybe not you) benefit from their willingness to take chances and to be creative. I think that John Burns, for whatever reason, took some cynical cheap shots at them personally, which is a real disservice to Matt Chambers and his people and a discredit to Cycling World and it’s readers. As to your concern over the swing arm, …it’s not fallen off yet, thank god, but there is always tomorrow!
Jim says
Oh, I see, now I get it! …. Confederate, pointy white hat, good ol’ boys, southern badge. Oh, James, you are just brilliant! All this time I thought we were talking motorcycle, when instead you’ve been tryin to teach a bullshit lesson in American history & political correctness. Pardon me, please, I must have the wrong forum.
Brian Case says
Yes, James clearly has the wrong forum. Explaining the facts to him at this point would be a waste of typing. There’s no room for hatred in motorcycling.
Keep riding Jim. We are very happy to have you in the family. Owning a Confederate to me, is an individual experience. I think the funny thing about a rebellion is, when you ask too many people to join, you eventually become the establishment you were rebelling against in the first place. Kind of a Catch 22, wouldn’t you say?
Last time I checked, we were still a privately-held company. So I don’t know how ‘James’ could honestly make the claim about our financials. It’s really none of his business.
Jim says
You could not be more right, my man. … You keep rebelling, I’ll keep riding. And James, you keep an eye on that swingarm, please.
Corey says
I absolutely agree with you guys that James is pushing the boundaries of this forum. You both should be commended for your rational and reserved responses!
The racial issue was brought up in the Cycle World article when the black guy asked the make of the bike and “to avoid a small riot†Hellcat was the “corrected†answer. Guess Cycle World was trying to fire up that issue in it’s own sad way.
There are several technical outside points that maybe need answering from James hatred based diatribe that Mr. Case could clarify:
1) Is there any possibility of heat stress problems with that the swingarm may have? I know Honda would spend millions answering that question, being a small company how did you come up with the correct wall thickness, heat treatment, long term stress analysis…?
2) Did the wall thickness need increasing at all? If it did, and due to its curved shape, wouldn’t adding more material (unsprung weight) actually defeat the overall performance design objectives? Forces travel in straight lines (pivot to axle) so there must be a good reason you would curve the swingarm.
3) Straying a little here, but I also have a question on this same unsprung weight issue concerning the Wraith’s fork blade shape. Wouldn’t adding extra material and weight to make that curved shape be something to avoid? I know the blades are shaped to intersect the rearward seat edge using an imaginary circle but again the performance issue surfaces…
4) This will no doubt be the easiest to answer and will stop the stupid attacks like James’. Since you produced bikes in New Orleans, and since it has a predominately black population, please let us know if you employed any minorities while building there. That should put the sad “good old boy†question to rest.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify these questions and best of luck to Confederate in the future.
Jim says
… Believe this bullshit?!? “How many minorities did you employ?†With all due respect, what a dumbass question. And who really gives a *%$#, unless of course you’re still cloaked in slavery. Good god, man, get over it & ride. I remember the good ‘ol days when riding a motorcycle was simple and care free, albeit perhaps a bit more “dangerous†by today’s standards. Ooo yes, there was such a time. A time before contamination. A time before helmet law, litigation, and political correctness. Yes, those were the days, my friend. That’s way back when I was still on my Honda SL175. Can you believe that bike once threw a rear sprocket? Broke the damn thing right off the steel hub and locked the back wheel solid. …. At 40 miles/ hr +. Yesserree, bob, that was one wild launch and landing, let me tell ya’. And that was a HONDA, no less, with ‘millions’ spent on stress analysis and safety research. Someone must’ve been sleeping at the assembly line I guess. Oh, and how ’bout the time I T-boned that car at 50. It pulled flat out from a stop sign and paid no attention to little ‘ol me. I torpedoed over the hood, shattered it’s windshield, and tumbled to a stop some 80 feet later. No helmet, no full leathers, and somehow, no broken bones. I did split my pants. The entire bike, including the well-researched swingarm, was toast. Thank God for small miracles and a hard head. Anyone ever watch biker build off? A piece of scrap metal here, a well placed sledge hammer there, cover it in chrome and wild paint and whallahh, you’ve got yourself a $60,000 theme bike. Just curious, how many minorities do the Tuttle’s employ? Bottom line, I’m about as concerned about my Hellcat’s swingarm or Confederates employment practices as I am about transfats. Confederate makes one Hell of a bike. And call me crazy, but if they have confidence enough to ride their own design, that’s good enough for me. I certainly hope they will never let themselves be held hostage or get bogged down by all the dumbshit demands of those bureaucratic few.
Tom R. says
Confederate’s silence is deafening! I can see the minority question passed by, but reasonable questions on design, engineering and safety should be answered!
Oliver says
For crying out loud, leave the politics somewhere else. But if you want to talk about motorcycles then think about the statement that most engines should be torn down after 8 passes. What a load of crap. Pro stock bikes go that far without a teardown in a race weekend. And they make nearly twice the horsepower per cubic inch. I have a Confederate with over 170rwhp out of a 120in Merch and I use it pretty hard without having hurting the engine. But I have the same complaint about the transmission, will not shift properly under load. Very annoying if only one out of four passes down the strip hits every gear. And Confederate spouts alot of bull about their commitment to customers and how they stand by their products. I love my bike, but it has nothing to do with the factory or the machine they sell you. Think of it as an unfinished product you have to develop and finish yourself.
Damon says
A Confederate us like a one off chopper. It’s going to need some tlc. The Confederate is conceptually the most beautiful, most badass, and most promising motorcycle I’ve seen in my 40 years of riding.