In comments to the recent announcement about Harley Davidson possibly moving their factory from York, PA, some said if they moved outside the U.S. costs might be lower but they might lose a lot of Harley customers. It’s interesting that another story appeared a couple of days ago reporting that Kawasaki is planning to move production of medium and large motorcycles from Japan to Thailand. Though large displacement motorcycles have been produced in the U.S., Kawasaki would be the first Japanese manufacturer to move production of the big bikes to an emerging country. I wonder how the Japanese customers and employees feel about that, there’s a chance they will not care at all, or maybe they will, I have no idea. It might depend on whether any large motorcycle production stays in Japan. Will anyone else in any other country give it a thought? Probably not.
The article also says Honda is considering the move of some medium size motorcycle production to Thailand as well.
As far as Harley is concerned, the York move, if it happens, will be to one of 4 cities in the U.S., however, I recall seeing some reports they may begin producing bikes in India for the Indian market since high import tariffs make imported bikes extremely expensive. To answer the title question of this post, Royal Enfield moved some production to India, before the British home factory finally closed and production continued on only in India. (I’m not inferring anything with that point, just making a note.)
Small displacement Japanese bikes have long been produced in many countries, with this move, the bigger bikes are moving, too. It’s an interesting world when so many companies are finding it difficult to produce motorcycles, or any other product, cost effectively in the same country where the company was formed and still resides. Moving some production is one thing, moving all of it is something quite different. What if all Kawasakis were made in Thailand? Would it matter? How about Hondas? What if Japanese motorcycles were no longer Japanese?
Are there any motorcycles, companies or any other products that would utterly fail if not produced in their home country? Is any product so American or Japanese or (fill in your choice of country) that it simply can’t be successfully produced and marketed if completely moved from the originating country? I’m beginning to wonder.
Link: Bloomberg
Related: Harley Checking New Factory Sites
mark says
Triumph moved production of the Modern Classics line of bikes to Thailand. There were quite a few Britbike fans who were not too thrilled with the prospect of no longer being able to buy a British-built Bonneville, but indications are that the Thai-built bikes are the equivalent in quality to the British-built ones. Still, there’s a sentimental, nostalgic part of many enthusiasts that seeks “the real thing,” ie, a British bike that was actually made in Britain.
Part of this, of course, is because of the cachet associated with a British bike, or Italian, or German, or American (it’s hard to imagine, for example, a Ducati that was not made in Italy — it almost seems pointless). Part of this cachet is presumably due to the fact that the European brands put out bikes in much smaller quantities than the Japanese Big Four, and their country of origin is a point of pride for the brand and its customers.
The same isn’t really true of the Japanese brands, so the country in which they’re built doesn’t seem as important. So I’d argue that if Triumph can successfully market Thai-produced bikes (especially, ironically enough, their retro line, which arguably has the most “British pride” associated with it), Kawasaki shouldn’t have any trouble with it at all.
taxman says
i think harley sales would slump quite a bit. they’ve put so much emphasis on ‘made in America’ to make up for their lack of modern technology and reliability that if they were no longer ‘made in America’ what reason would be left to purchase their bike?
i know i’m poking a hornets nest here with the above comment but really, many other motor companies make similar bikes that are cheaper, more reliable, and more powerful that there are really only two reasons i can see to buy from HD. firstly they have more dealerships per square mile than any other brand and more products related to there bikes. this way if you get a hankerin to visit your dealer there is almost always going to be one fairly close. secondly the harley crowd is just that, a crowd. if ever you wanted to ‘fit in’ all you need to do is buy a harley and join HOG and you’ll be surounded by people that are instantly your ‘brothers’
and i do own a HD bike, and personally i don’t care where they are made. i also own a Suzuki.
Sid says
what if all the highly paid, overhead “management” personnel that have no direct impact on the manufacturing or supervision of the manufacturing are moved out of the home country? They could be paid a lot less since the cost of living is much lower.
Emmet says
I HOPE they lose a lot of customers!
I know someone who collects Royal Enfields and his belief is that the company has never died. True, the british factory closed, but RE was smart to move some manufacturing to India. My question is if Royal Enfield would still be considered a british motorcycle marque?
davidabl says
Emmet, It’s an English motorcycle produced in India. That’s a conundrum of course,
but take a ride on one of your friend’s bikes and you’ll see what i mean. Sounds,smell,feel are all the same. Just make sure it’s a kickstart model.. If somebody was still making Harley ironhead sportsters anywhere in the world, they’d still be Harleys
davidabl says
Actually, the real question is how “American’ Harleys are with all the imported components or how “English” a new Triumph really is. And there’s a new BMW
sportsbike coming out that’s made in and assembled in …China.
Rick says
>If somebody was still making Harley ironhead sportsters
Yes, please… How about re-starting a Rikuo factory?
dannyb says
about the only thing HD makes in the USA is some of there bike parts, what they make there money on ie merchandise, is all made in china.
The newly reformed Indian brand, though owned by a couple of brits, are made in the USA.
John says
Easy to make an ignorant statement and present it as fact to be passed on to other ignorants as fact.Harley Davidson makes in the U.S., the motors,transmissions,frames,bodyparts and paints them.Starter motors,forks and shocks and gauges are not what makes a motorcycle.
mark says
> If somebody was still making Harley ironhead sportsters anywhere
> in the world, they’d still be Harleys
I am not sure that I 100% agree with that. Consider that Ural still make
1940 vintage BMWs, though they can hardly be considered BMs. Perhaps
“based on” is the closest description.
If HD were to setup an OS factory, and lowered their costs, they would
probably rule the world pretty quickly. Then, they did buy Aermacchi
(failed) and have now bought MV and Cagiva, so who knows what they
might do with the influence of those carzy Italians 😉
coho says
Doesn’t matter.
If the quality is there it doesn’t matter where it was put together.
Goldwings were built in the USA for a very long time but were no less Japanese for it.
todd says
The key is that they don’t tell anyone. Harley doesn’t tell anyone that the majority of parts or merchandise are not made in the USA. BMW doesn’t tell anyone one of the 650’s are made in China. Triumph doesn’t tell anyone either. Honda, Kawasaki, etc… 90% or more of the people buying these bikes have no clue where they are built. Ignorance is bliss.
Urals don’t claim to be BMWs.
Does it matter? If you moved to India for work, bought an Indian Harley (ironic), then moved back with the bike to the US, wouldn’t that still be a Harley? Would anyone you sold it to know or care if it was built in India?
I still say HD should move production to Mexico so they can continue to say it’s “Made in America”.
-todd
Tin Man 2 says
Would a BMW diehard tour rider buy a BMW made in Thialand? How about Ducati? I doubt it! BMW is now in the process of mainlining their Trade Name into a mass market lower cost bike,Thus the low cost new BMW line of bikes is produced in third world countrys. You will not see this happen with their signature models. By the By, check the Triumph Forum for details,but it appears that only a small number of Retro Bikes are being built out of England, and they are meeting market resistence here. As for the myths of Harley reliability problems, The fit and finish, reliability and quality of a modern Harley makes the imitators look sad. My brothers BMWs have more warrenty issues then my modern Harleys, And an Asian imitator is still more plastic then most can tolerate.
John says
I agree with you TinMan2,I’ve never had any issues with any of my Harleys nor have my friends that own them and the quality of parts a workmanship is excellent.Those that perpetuate those myths are of questionable intelligence,to pass on third party rumor. Of course anyone that actually owns one and has had unaddressed problems I too would be pissed,I just don’t know anyone like that.If I were in the market for anyone of the Japanese bikes I would want it built there,and a Triumph built by Brits,Italian bikes built by Italians and so-on.Having a Harley built outside the US would be like going to a Mexican restuarant ready for some great authentic Mexican food and havin a bunch of Minnasota blonds cookin the food.It wouldn’t work out for me.
Grant says
hey I am sure that by moving to another country will only help keep the costs of the motorcycle down. Just imagine that if in 10 years time from now a Harley 883 sporster retailed at $45,000.00 no one bought them and then the company collapses and everyone is out of luck, so pure economics comes into play, build them where evr keep the quality ( that’s just a perception anyway), and keep motorcycles costs down.
B*A*M*F says
I always find it fascinating when products go overseas and the quality drops. Typically, people blame the folks overseas as being less than competent, technically advanced, or whatever.
The reality is that the company that sent their product overseas did so to cut costs. If they didn’t set up their own operation somewhere else, they put their components or products out to bid. Typically, some corners are going to be cut in order for the supplier to make a profit while hitting the price point. Also, the newest and best technology isn’t always as widely available in some parts of the developing world.
There are a number of brands that have linked their identities to their homelands. Harley is definitely an American brand and icon. Harley Davidson has an image, a heritage, and a product philosophy, all of which uniquely reflect American sensibilities.
Ducati is supremely Italian. There is a certain stubbornness about continuing on with desmodromic valve operation nearly half a century after everyone else gave up on it. They are also steadfast in their adherence to the V-twin. If you look at the Monster, the frame is reminiscent of the Superleggera construction pioneered by Touring.
Honda is something else entirely. The make so many products. The Cub is as close to a universal bike as one could ever hope to make. They make an effort to tailor some of their products to specific markets, and they have been focused on exports for decades in a way that The Motor Company never has.
So to me, it doesn’t much matter what country a Honda is made in. Honda knows how to make the same bike in Japan as they do in Taiwan. They could make the same thing in Ohio and end up with the same result. A Ducati made outside of Italy would probably lose something in the translation. A Harley, on the other hand, might not lose anything in the execution or translation thereof, but it would definitely alienate a number of the buyers who have seen them through over the last few decades.
Ulysses says
Harley already is mounting bikes in other countries. Here in Brazil a deal was announced with quite a bit of fanfarre. While our “import” Harleys come fully assembled our “nationally produced” ones come dismounted and are assembled locally. It has to do with importing taxes.
With good QC, both are perceived to be similar in quality. A possible downside in having factories overseas is waiting A LOT for replacement parts. This makes Harley owners here crazy (and some go out and buy a Honda). Hope it not happens to you too.
Tom says
US-market Kawasaki KLR650s – not small bikes – have been built in Thailand for many years.
The only thing I object to is paying first world prices for products a company paid third-world wages to build. Honda’s new US-market Elite 110 motor scooter model has a retail price of $3000 but is built in China – image their profit margin!
davidabl says
Ulysses info on Harleys in Brazil (“import” v.s. “nationally produced”) sounds like what
is gonna happen with H.D. in India. Same deal, by the way, as Rikuo began in Japan
in the 30’s and Royal Enfield in India, late 40’s early 50’s. First import unassembled bikes,then later set up manufacturing.. Can’t imagine H.D. licensing to an outside company today though. And with global warming/emissions regs and safety regs don’t
expect any H.D. models to linger on in India after they’re extinct in the USA.
Jim says
HD would take a huge PR hit if it off-shored production, as they have used made in America central to their branding. Especially in the decade following the spin off from AMF when they lobbied Congress to impose import duties on 750cc and larger imported bikes.
But in reality often final assembly is what people see. Near the peak of the HD flag waving some resourceful wag compared the made in America content of a Harley and the Gold Wing, parts and components, not intellectual property, and low and behold the GW was more made in America.
Since the mid 90’s BMW has off shored many if not most sub-assemblies including complete bikes. The F650 Funduro was built in Italy by Aprila with an Austrian motor from Rotax. With the F650 GS/Dakar they brought final assembly back to Berlin but the motors still came from Rotax and now Kymco.
In the end most buyers don’t care where the bike is made, but HD because of its appeal to patriotism as the American motorcycle company, would have some splainin’ to do.
Kenny says
I think the Motor Company would lose the support of it’s oldest, long term customers by moving more than a fraction of their production off-shore. But HD doesn’t really seem to care about them. I would expect much weeping and wailing and knashing of teeth, a big demand for used “made in USA” bikes, and pretty much business as usual after that.
The American buyer only seems to care about how cheaply something can be bought
-not about quality,not about where or how something is made, not about keeping fellow Americans gainfully employed.
davidabl says
We won’t see H.D.importing foreign made “Harleys”as “Harleys” into the USA anytime soon. Probably not until they’re at the same stage that Indian was when they imported “Indians” from Britain in the ‘fifties. i.e. not until the MoCo is dying.
However, in other markets, it’s a whole other game. It’s hard to imagine people in
India not accepting an Harley assembled in India (or manufactured in India.) If anything, in a lot of places it might be a matter of national pride to be able to say “we build ’em here.” Certainly is in the USA.
here.
craigj says
A buddy just bought a Honda XL1000 Veradero (not available in the US, but a great bike). It says right on the frame rail “built in Spain by Montesa”, which is now owned by Honda. Montesa Cota trials bikes have been powered by HRC engines for years. So are these bikes Spanish or Japanese??
Fireworks says
This is a complex topic. Perhaps the best thing to do is consider what is likely to align best with HD’s known planning. They’ve got a known issue with their demographics. Alienating a customer base that has been with them for decades is probably not a significant worryto them as the average age of a buyer goes up not down. They need those old timers to support them through to a new demographic but that’s about it. The recent changes in HD’s lineup are subtle but the winds o change are blowing. If HD figures an newer demographic will allow for more foreign manufacturing then they will probably do it in time. Reducing manufacturing costs would provide HD with an oppourtunity to increase market share which considering HD is very successful at keeping people in the Harley family, would be an attractive move. Bottom line is that companies don’t have an expiry date on the calendar they will do what they can get away with in order to profit. One could argue that the current version of HD would be different if the company hadn’t been in financially trouble in the past. Look up the history of the FXR to see what I mean. HD is a major corporation, applying wRk fuzzy feelings to it is a mistake.
DW says
Many many years ago Europe and the US had a technological advantage over the developing world. That has all changed completely over the last 50 years. You go to any of these “developing countries”, and look at the factories they have and the capabilities of those facilities and i guarantee it wil blow your mind. Building bikes today is much like baking a cake. Wether you are in Thailand, the US or Europe all you do is find the ingredients and follow the recipe. The world of engineering is already at that level. Think back 30 years ago it was pretty big news if someone had a CNC machine in their workshop, now, a CNC machine is standard equipment. The same has happened in the industrial world. There are no more industrial secrets in the west. the edge is gone. The world of factories and production is now centered physically in the east for sure, with maybe some of the intelectual capabilities still based in the west. The question of Harleys being produced abroad isn’t a question of should they or will they, it is a matter of when will it happen?