With all of the new riders trying to save gas heading out onto the streets on 2 wheels, I started thinking about whether a novice should buy a small displacement “beginner’s bike” or a scooter. After watching a few new riders struggling down the road, it’s more than a hypothetical question.
The other day I was driving down a street in my neighborhood and saw someone, obviously very new to this whole riding experience, trying out his brand new scooter. As I approached his driveway, the wobbly rider headed toward the street with a look of panic as he tried to figure out how to stop, continuing his slow motion ride right out into traffic. He did manage to stop, finally, squarely in the middle of the street, then pushing himself backwards into the driveway out of harms way, … for the moment.
Obviously, he either didn’t receive any basic instructions from the dealer or didn’t listen, or perhaps he ordered his new ride from some other source, but I bet he isn’t unique in his complete lack of knowledge or control. As he continues his wobbly first weeks on the road, what are the chances he’ll be in some kind of accident, or cause one? Will the experience turn him into a long term rider or sour him to the whole experience? Might it have been any different on a small motorcycle?
Motorcycles and scooters present a very different rider environment, even beginner bikes have all of the standard motorcycle controls and you straddle it like a bicycle which most people are at least somewhat familiar with. A scooter has the feet on a floorboard, twist and go simplicity a new rider might be attracted to but the little wheels and unique handling mean you’re learning to ride a scooter and you’ll have to relearn a lot of the basics if you want to move up.
Scooters are fun and have a large following around the world but how many commuters trying to save gas money will stay with them long term? I have a hunch a lot of these new riders will end up selling their little gas saver and return to their car sooner rather than later, passing the little scooter to another new rider who will repeat the first owner’s experience.
If the rider begins with a scooter because his friends all own one or the area where he lives has a large and active scooter population, there’s a better chance it will turn out OK, but if someone just wants to park his truck because the gas pump is killing his wallet and turns to a scooter as the answer, I think his long term prospects are pretty dim. Motorcycles are far more numerous in most areas and finding a friend or riding buddy to get you through the rough spots might be easier. The early months are the dangerous ones and rider skill learned once on the motorcycle carries on even if you move up to a bigger bike.
So what do you think? Are scooters a good place to start or should a rider get a motorcycle to begin with?
Jason says
Some people just aren’t meant to be on two wheels. For instance, before I met or know my wife I saw this girl riding a bike. She was horrible, dangerous, and destine to get hurt. I later found out it was my future wife. Now she rides safely….on the back of my bike.
mark says
What difference does it make if its a scooter or a beginner bike? inexperienced is inexperienced. Just be happy the newbie didn’t buy a Hayabusa.
John says
Newbies on scooters or small bikes are better off then the 50 something who buys a Harley for the first bike or after being absent for 30-40 years. They are a large % of the rise in accident rates. Article here on The Kneeslider. The squids are usually good riders with too much testosterone and HP all at the same time. I’m 59(47 yrs ridding/crashing) and still have that problem except the bike is a little slower 140 mph tops. In the mid 60’s my dad and I had a Suzuki dealership and we rented 50cc& 80cc motorcycles. I had the honor of teaching everybody how to ride. Talk about excitement – better than any ride Disney ever came up with. Also taught Drivers Ed in HS- Teacher said he didn’t want to be killed or injured teaching beginners how to drive with out two steering wheels and dual brakes. That was also very thrilling-yep adrenalin junkie.
Mr. 2Fiddy says
The main issue with scooters is that people have a misconception that: “Scooters are not Motorcycles” and therefore “Scooters are safer than Motorcycles”.
The only difference between the two is how far you can lean into a corner.
Granted scooters are “simpler” to operate, at the end of the day the fact that a MSF type course is not encouraged for scooter owners boggles my mind. Concrete and cars are not any softer for scooter owners.. And this false sense of ‘Safety’ is just something (IMHO) that is not good for any 2-wheeler to have.
Nathan says
My 1st day I opened up my CZ125, shot across the road, hit the curb and fell off.
I’ve fallen off a few times and each time I’ve been lucky. but always learnt my lesson.
If it wasnt luck I’d just be a statistic .. scares me that my children might do the same.
Though I thought everyone went through this.
B*A*M*F says
I’m a scooter rider and I like motorcycles too. In some ways scooters are simpler to operate. Both brakes being hand levers is something I like. Even on the older scooters with manual shift, I think the controls are more obvious for new riders than a motorcycle.
That said, most motorcycles have better weight distribution and handle better than most scooters. I think both are equally dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced.
I live in Kansas City, and I would disagree with the premise that it’s easier to find riding buddies on a bike than a scoot. There are a few scooter clubs in town with the largest being an lone riding club. The motorcycle groups are very segmented. Harleys don’t ride with Japanese cruiser owners. Sport bike guys all seem to be unorganized or underground. It’s much more cliqueish than the scooter scene here.
Fraser says
Here in the UK,new riders have to complete “Compulsory Basic Training” (CBT)in an off-road, controlled environment before heading out on the road on their own.
Scott says
I started by riding dirt bikes for a couple years when I was young before heading out on the street. I think this time has saved me more than I can count. It allowed me to learn valuable lessons of bike control and gain ‘bike sense’ before having to deal with traffic. It is also the graduated learning steps that I have insisted that both my teen/twenty year old boys follow before jumping on their first street ride. I am all for people using bikes of any kind to save on gas, but is it not worth some time to learn what a bike is about before endangering ones life out there on the road. Sure, not everyone can have a place to ride off-road before street riding, but at the very least, everyone heading out on two wheels should have some training even if its parking lot riding with instruction from an experienced rider.
Azzy says
I think that is why the MSF opened up a few “Scooter Schools” to teach and help people.
My wife wanted a scooter, because she didnt want to have to worry about hills and gears all the time (although she can / has taken my GS500 for a spin without a problem). We looked at them, and for the terrain, it just was not an issue to deal with. PA hills and potholes are not kind to the small engine and little wheeled things.
We ended up at a compromise of an old CM400A Hondamatic. Its a fun bike, handles well, and functions like a motorcycle, without the clutch.
I think too many people see a scooter as a toy, and with PA not requiring a license for scooters under 50cc’s, this is a huge problem.
Even on a scoot I would be wearing the same gear as my other bikes. a tshirt and a ball cap arent the best protective gear, and at most I see scooter riders with is a jean jacket and a 1/2 or shorty helmet. Better than nothing and the idiots on sportbikes, sporting flipflops and shorts, i suppose.
Don says
The general perception is that motorcycles are for fun, while scooters are for utility. I mean, most folks buy a scooter to save gas. Most folks that I know that buy a motorcycle do so not for gas saving, but for the riding experience.
I’d wager that most motorcycle riding is an “extra” trip. A weekend ride, or some such. On the other hand, most scooter riding is a commute that must happen; if not on a scooter, then in a car.
Yes there are many motorcyclists who also commute, but I doubt there are not many scooter-ists who have rally rides.
Dorzok says
In the grand state of California there are two classes of motorcycle licenses, Class M1 and Class M2.
With a Class M1, you can operate any 2-wheel motorcycle and any motorized vehicle in Class M2.
With a Class M2, you can only operate any motorized bicycle or moped or any bicycle with an attached motor.
And, to apply for your motorcycle Class M1 or M2 license, you must do one of the following:
If you are under 21, you must complete a motorcycle rider training course given by the California Highway Patrol (CHP) and provide a certificate of Completion of Motorcycle Training (DL 389) to DMV to be issued your license. You will not be required to take the motorcycle driving test at DMV if you currently have a California Drivers License.
If you are over 21, you may either choose to complete the course by CHP and provide the certificate OR schedule an Appointment(s) at DMV to take the driving test. (You may also call 1-800-777-0133 between the hours of 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. Monday-Friday, to make a driving test appointment.) You have three chances to pass the test.
So, even if you want to operate a moped or scooter, no min size, you MUST complete the MSF course.
Aaron Weber says
I liked the CVT transmission on my Honda Ruckus quite a lot – it was definitely helpful to have something small and light and slow to learn on, and to be able to focus on riding and not on shifting while I learned to ride.
I’ve since moved up to an SV650 and I’m glad I started on something smaller. Whether it’s step-through or step-over, automatic or manual, I think small-bore is great and I wish there were more sub-600cc bikes on the market.
When my father was riding in the 60s he had a badass motorcycle – a Matchless Competition Single. That was a 500cc engine and made about 35 horsepower and was not something people regarded as “for beginners.” My SV makes about 75 hp and people claim it’s wimpy or good for beginners and I just shake my head.
Alister says
my whole family rides bikes bar my mother and my sister, though now she’s considering getting one to commute around wellington. shes asking me questions about bikes to buy, something that she can ride the 4-hour journey home and i’m giving her options but, shes NEVER riddena bike before. shes been on the back of a few, but never had to focus on the gear-shifting or brakes or anything like that, shes very much a ‘cager. in this sort of case, she has good luck in the fact that my dad used to race smaller capacity bikes and i and my brothers have all ridden since we were 15 so we have a good combined knowledge. the only real problem is getting her a bike that has enough grunt to keep her happy, but is small enough to keep her out of harms way. GN250 seems the go.
i’m not a fan of scooters..i had one when i was learning but man they’ve got to be the most dangerous thing on the road. and most riders don’t even bother to wear protection, i saw a kid go past the other day in jandals (flip-flops, for you yankees), a singlet and shorts. even falling at 50kms can do alot of damage!
FREEMAN says
I don’t see how either is better to learn on. It’s probably more a matter of the rider’s skill rather than what they ride.
hoyt says
I agree with other comments that cite not everyone is cut out to ride. Learning to operate controls are one thing. Constantly scanning 360 degrees around you while you operate is another.
So, scoot or cycle?
It depends on the comfort level of the new rider and what comes natural to them. That only comes with others taking the time to shop around with them so they can ride in controlled environments. Who doesn’t like shopping for bikes, especially when its not your money?
For any new riders out there, don’t be shy about asking an experienced rider to go with you. They’ll be glad to ride the scoot or bike to a parking lot for you to test ride, comfortably.
With big box stores in “anytown sprawl-ville”, everyone should have access to a parking lot for their “training grounds”.
Not everyone has common sense or humility to take the time to learn according to their own abilities, not someone else’s.
Not all dealerships have the common sense or compassion for new riders to simply ask about their comfort level.
Ruckus, Buell Blast, Hyosung 250 cruiser, Ninja 250 are all good considerations.
For the beginners that riding comes somewhat naturally, Guzzi has a Nevada or Breva that is a good option (reasonable & forgiving v-twin power with low maintenance shaft drive)
akbar says
with all the newbies on scooters around here, it is like watching squirrels in traffic.
I think that mostly a beginner bike or scooter are about the same thing – though, if is is called a motor bike they might treat the whole idea with a bit more respect (nah, they wont).
Seeing some of the lines these people choose to ride, and the closeness they will allow cars to be to them, just makes me want to pull them over and say, ‘dude, let me show you how to survive on that thing.’
Andii says
If you want to ride two-wheels take some basic training – It could save your life. Where I live to ride a 49cc automatic scooter you only need a car license. Scary!!!
Yes I am an instructor and I know that training works for scooters or motorcycles!
Sean says
If the scooter rider in your story wasn’t taught how to ride, and given help with learning how to ride on the road, then I consider it the dealership’s fault. At the shop I work at, we take at least half an hour to sort out the new owner on the bike, be it a Rocket III or a Keeway Venus. And as for the gear worn, just last night I watched a young girl wearing a tartan miniskirt, a ski jacket and an open face helmet loading her shopping into her aging scooter. It’s frightening to watch, but you can’t do much.
Azzy says
What can really be scary is that some of the scooters are too small. How many of us can get that quick jolt of power to avoid something that would reduce you to bucket fodder? When you got that little 49cc wound as high as it will go, quick acceleration is only happening at the point of impact.
GenWaylaid says
There are few differences between scooters and beginner bikes that would make much of a difference to a beginning rider. Scooters tend to be lighter, which would make them easier for a beginner to handle at low speeds. Many longtime cagers have no experience with manual transmissions, so there’s less of a learning curve with an automatic scooter. Really, there should be more automatic motorcycles to give new riders more options. While 50cc scooters tend to be lacking in power, the 150cc models can reach 60mph and are powerful enough anywhere but the highway. There definitely is such a thing as too much power for a beginner, and most bikes over 500cc have it. The main handling complaint I have about scooters is that I find it harder to control lean angle with my feet in front of me.
I agree with Azzy that the main problem with new scooter riders is that they don’t take the machine seriously. Just because a machine isn’t regulated as much as a motorcycle, people seem to get the impression that it’s a safe and easy toy. Last weekend I was out at a moped rally, and all the other riders were surprised that I wore an armored jacket. Most of them were riding in t-shirts, shorts, and half-helmets, on machines that had been modified to run 40-50mph when the cops aren’t looking. Sure, none of them got road rash that day, but luck is not acceptable safety gear.
Scooterists do have clubs and rallies in nearly all major U.S. cities, but usually someone who buys a scooter just to save gas will never join one. Serious scooterists tend to be as skilled and well-protected as motorcycle riders, but they get a bad reputation from unprotected fashonistas on new Vespas and clueless newbies on cheap Chinese POSes.
P. T. Anderson says
I think it depends on the scooter as to whether or not it makes a good learning experience. I actually started on the Honda Helix when they first came out. It was a very conscious decision on my part because the Helix was very motorcycle like in the control layout. Throttle on the right grip, no surprise. Front brake (which was actually a disc) on the right bar lever, not all scooters are like this. Rear brake was a pedal on the right floorboard, more like a motorcycle for sure. When I did transition to a motorcycle it was a snap because all I had to do was learn the shifting bits on the left side of the bike. I already had everything else figured out to a basic degree.
I wonder how many scooter riders out there who have made the transition to motorcycles get caught out by the control layout differences…
I’ve even gone so far as to set up all my bicycles with the front brake on the right bar lever.
BigAl says
I do a lot of touring with my 250cc Skywave scooter. Together with 2 Harleys, 1 Daytona and 1 BMW K1200S. I consider mine as the most difficult to ride in the narow streets and skylines of Fuji. The wheelbase is extremely long, due to the low center of gravity I need to lean a lot, the power at the turns exit needs to be well estimated by feeling (this thing is 220 kg without me).
Somehow I dislike this scooter / bike discussion a lot.
chris says
I saw a huge scooter gang the other day. I thought there was a parade going on, and I after I realized there were no Fez’s on their heads (indicating crazy shriners), I chuckled for a good while. I don’t think there is a wrong way to learn how to ride. Whatever gets you off I suppose. Restricting new riders to low displacement bikes might not be the best way to go. I learned on dirt bikes, and to be honest, that was the best way for me to learn. I crashed and crashed, but didn’t have to worry about a car running me over afterwards.
PaulN says
Several people have expressed the concern that the general public seems to believe that motorcycles are vehicles, while scooters are utilitarian and therefore safe little errand machines. Based on what I’ve seen, I have to agree. I see SO MANY people on scooters sporting shorts, sandals, sunglasses, and a half helmet that it turns my stomach. Dumping a 100cc scooter at 40 MPH isn’t any different than low siding a Busa at the same speed. The pavement (or that minivan that you’re about to meet) does the damage, not the machine that you just vacated.
I feel that training and licensing should be mandatory. Telling the kids that Grammy is in the ICU becuase her scooter went out from under her is not something I want to do. If some basic (even forced) training and parking lot practice will help avoid some of that, then I’m for it.
Jim says
This morning the cage needed to go to the dealer for service and on the 7 mile drive up a country road to that location no fewer than 3 newish scoots were parked at the end of driveways with for sale signs.
I believe its a reasonable assumption that the owner didn’t appreciate that the scoot wasn’t a bicycle.
Derek says
saw one benifite to a scooter, saw a guy with a 24 pack on the floor with his feet on it. cant cary a 24 pack that easy on a sport bike.
Nicolas says
I guess you can hurt yourself as easily on a scoot as on a motorcycle, if you don’t have the basics (training, protective gear, know your limits, a little bit of luck).
The point is that you begin with what’s available (what your parents/granpa have in their garage), what’s in your budget. Then if it’s not a question of $$, you just picks what fits with your needs … if you are likely having short urban rides you pick a scooter, if you are more a Hway type of guy you pick a motorcycle … make sense ?
anon says
First of all: letting people ride scooters/mopeds without a MC license is a recipe for disaster. Small engine or note, it’s a very different skill set from driving a car.
Then: Add me to the list of people who think starting on the street isn’t that safe way to go whether it be scooter OR full size motorcycle. For safety?: Start off-road, and young, to master bike control(s), only then add in the hostile environment of the street.
There’s a very good reason the MSF courses are given in parking lots – away from traffic.
As to the original question, I think the increased gyroscopic forces of real motorcycle wheels give a decided advantage over the pie plate wheels of a typical scooter. The low speeds of the scooter only amplify the effect. Hence the authors reference to a ‘wobbly’ scooter. Sure, the scooter is more maneuverable when parking, but that only comes into play twice per ride.
lostinoz says
The “Great scooter debate” my friends and I have argued over and over again. They think that the “no license” topic is its greatest thing, while I believe that there should be SOME restrictions. I feel that the “moped/scooter” endorsement here in NV should be MANDATORY for ALL scooters(not just 50cc+) even a 49cc. What is SO hard about going to play in a parking lot for a day to learn how to be safe?
There is a guy in town trying to start a scooter club, and I’m quietly whispering in his ear about safety (the ground is just as hard on a scooter) and not taking chances. It’s meeting low interest of course, since no new scooter owners want to admit its any more dangerous than walking or riding a bicycle. The REAL scooter riders are geared up and responsible.
I myself have ridden a 49cc scooter, right after getting off my 1130cc VRSC. While the lack of power was frustrating, it was still the wind, still open (city) road, and actually MORE fun, since I didn’t have to worry about the actual speed limit, it gave me more time to enjoy the ride.
Pharwaylok says
After taking the BRC, I bought my first bike–BMW R850R. A little big/heavy for a first bike, but not bad.
I’m fortunate that my driveway parallels the street, with outlets on both ends that I share with my neighbors.
I power walked the bike back and forth until I could ride from a standing start, power up to 2nd gear and brake straight. All stuff learned at BRC.
Next I rode to the end of the driveway, waited for traffic and rode back to the other end of the driveway.
It took practice and enough disciple to tell yourself, I’m going to think this through and do it in steps.
1. Take the course,
2. Get the bike,
3. Practice,
4. Practice and practice more.
Phar..
hoyt says
Not completely.
To some degree that is why we are having this dialogue. Some new scoots do 80 mph, so highway use is an option either way – a small displacement cycle or scoot.
How many times have you caught yourself “waving” to a scooter on the open road?
It’s ok to wave to scooters, b-t-w. The profitable scooter money goes to the smart moto manufacturers who do both scooters and cycles. A win-win.
hoyt says
oops…my response to Nicolas was delayed.
“if you are likely having short urban rides you pick a scooter, if you are more a Hway type of guy you pick a motorcycle … make sense ?”
Rod Mesa says
I’d like to see it made mandatory that all prospective drivers start out on a scooter for at lease six mos. That certainly would weed out the idiots and the inept.
The survivors could go on to get a motorbike or a car. The failures would go to public transportation or the morgue.
That would teach prospective cagers to be more aware of scooters & motorcycles in general, and help current cagers too, esp. if it might be their kid out there.
Of course the disabled would have to get a scoot-trike or scoot-car, but the whole point would be to produce a generation of drivers that are aware of the road and surrouding vehicles instead of the kind of didots out there now.
PEGGY SCOTT says
Is there a scooter that you straddle like a bike? I like the feel of riding a bike, with my feet set apart like on a bike. But I love the bigger scooters like the Honda Silver Wing, but hate the feeling of my feet so close together on the floorboard.
Dave says
I’ve had both starting out with a medium size bike then moving upscale to large bike. I now have a scooter and with the “New Maxi” scooters the only difference to me is convienience of not having to shift. I get the same enjoyment as a big bike on the scooter at half the cost and better gas maileage. That’s my story and I am sticking to it!
B*A*M*F says
Having ridden many scooters as small as 50cc and motorcycles over 1000cc, I can honestly say I don’t think that the size of wheels or potential gyroscopic effect thereof really has much impact.
Even with scooters, there are some with 10″ wheels and others with 16″. I’ve not noticed a significant difference in stability that I can attribute to the size of the wheels. Wheelbase, suspension tuning, etc. makes a huge difference. Weight and the proportion of unsprung weight to overall weight also make an impact on stability. A 300lb scooter with 12″ wheels tends to be more stable than a 250lb scoot sporting the same footwear.
Personally, I love both, but for different reasons. In an ideal world, I’d have a building with over 100 bikes in it. Each ready to ride at a moment’s notice. But when it comes to city riding, I like scooters best for their size.
Tim E. says
I ride a 275cc scooter to and from work, and on errands, 12 mile commute on country roads. Mostly 35-55mph. Went with the scoot instead of a MC because I like the extra storage on board, the large fairing up front (which would’ve cost me 3x as much on a MC), and I like not having to give attention to shifting and clutching. I can drive a stick-shift, but 2-wheeling is dangerous enough. Why not reserve that extra attention for staying safe, instead of shifting and clutching? Just my 2 cents. My scoot will top out around 80-85mph on the flat, and most of the roads I ride are 55 speed limit, so I have enough to stay out of trouble most of the time. And yes, most MC riders around here wave at me!
Toney says
I learned how to ride a AR80 motorycle back in the 80’s without a motorcycle license. I then got my motorcycle license in Washington Dc but ended up selling my motorcycle about 1 yr. later. Now I have a Kymco motor scooter 49cc and still have my motorcycle license, I was really thinking about moving up to a 125 or 150, but do to my disability, my doctors don’t want me to upgrade, due to the speed. I really think the laws should be that anyone whom rides a motor scooter needs to have a scooter or motorcycle license and safety class. Its really dangerous riding on the road with other vehicles not knowing the safety of operating motor scooters, which is simular to operating a motorcycle with the difference of the motorcycle has gears and the scooter does not. I don’t travel too far on my 49cc, just local destinations and I obey all laws and safety policies. It’s very hard to find a motor scooter club or group that will accept 49cc riders. With my disability, I wish I could find local motor scooter 49cc riders like myself.
Rod Yendor says
Greetings,
Now some may think it’s silly or otherwise, not grown up yet, but I would beg to differ.
Last year I retired. Thought…. now would be a good time to go green. Parked my Ram PU and bought a grownups scooter. The scooter has 20″ rims and a 48 volt power system which can go 30 MPH. It’s good for around 15 to 20 miles per charge. It is stood on with no seat. Fantastic. I can go green, make a smaller carbon foot print for my kids to deal with and is fun to run my errands with.
My problems started less than a year later. Coming home from the hardware store I was pulled over, cited and was sent on my way. Not quite understanding why I was cited I called the Police Department. Dispatch had the officer return my call and explain to me the issue.
Apparently it is considered a motorized scooter. Motorized scooters arn’t supposed to be on streets posted other than 25 MPH.
Stressed out with the $174 fine, as well as my wife, I have parked the thing. Yes he really rained on my parade. However, where I bought the “bike”, in California, the law in that town considers them to be a bike… because of the 20″ rims.
I will fight the citation later this month. How can we get green at this rate? I haven’t had a citation in over 35 years. To get one for going green is beyond comprehension for me.To look over your shoulder and get pulled over again isn’t worth it. $174 will buy some gas. But I’d rather be green about my running my errands.
The law is very unclear as to why a bicycle can be on a road posted for 35 or 40 and an electric assisted mobility device can’t. Do you have a suggestion?
Thanks for your time,
Rod
todd says
Rod, not many choices in this case. You can ride in bicycle lanes on streets posted over 25mph but you have to walk it across cross walks – as if bicyclists do that either. You could put a seat on it but then you’d have to figure out how to get it registered as a motorcycle which would also require an M2 license, insurance and a DOT helmet. Strip the scooter down and fit all the parts to your bicycle then you’re good to go…
-todd