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About That On Board Electric Generator Idea

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Butane fuel cell from Lilliputian

Remember when I was wondering recently about a fuel powered electric motorcycle? I thought, why not build a motorcycle using an electric motor but then generate the electricity on board with some kind of fuel powered generator instead of a battery so you had electricity as long as you had fuel and you could refill quickly instead of recharge slowly. I just saw this little butane fuel cell soon to be sold by Brookstone that can recharge your smartphone 10 to 14 times or any other electronic device multiple times before needing to be recharged itself with a new butane cartridge. Swap cartridges and you’re good to go. Right idea, if only it would scale.

Of course, fuel cells are the next step beyond what we were talking about in the other article, there we suggested a more basic setup using gasoline with some type of ICE powered generator, here we’re using butane in a fuel cell, no actual generator involved, but the focus is on making electricity rather than simply trying to store it.

Storing electricity for mobile applications like motor vehicles is a very rough road where everyone stumbles. It’s notoriously hard to store it in the amounts required to do serious work. For stationary applications, electricity is unbeatable.

Link: Lilliputian Systems via Business Insider

Posted on Filed Under: Alternative Fuels, Electric motorcycles

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Comments

  1. This was Felix Wankel’s original idea for the rotary engine for it to either drive the vehicle hydraulically or to drive a generator for propulsion. In fact Norton is working on the idea.

    • Apparently Norton’s not working that hard on the idea anymore. The bike they’ll be racing at IOMTT is packing an Aprilia RSV4, on a Spondon frame. Nowhere near as cool as the NRV588. A similar idea is that diesel powered hydrostatic bike from awhile back. Wasn’t the most elegant design, but it worked extremely well.

        • As suggested before, a small three cylinder two stroke diesel. 3 cylinders good power to weight ratio. Could even run ex cooking fat as fuel. A hydrostatic link would work as would a CV twist and go scooter style setup.
          Norton running a Aprilia in a Spondon frame? I Ha ha I like that!

          • It’s nowhere near as cool as the NRV588, running that sweet Wankel motor, making upwards of 170 hp. Doesn’t even look as cool, very generic compared to the 588. This new Norton is quite a huge disappointment.

  2. I have imagined a fuel cell driving an electric hub motor wheel (or wheels), but as I’m rather clueless as to the fuel cell output capabilities versus the the physical size required for the output. Meaning: can you get the darn thing squeezed into a bike frame? Though I’m sure the Boss-Hog trike guys could probably do it. Then, there’s the miles per X BTU’s comparison to figure out. OY!
    Still, it’s a wonderful time to be alive…..

    • At this point in time Fuel Cells are a non- option for both cars and M/C’s until some serious hurdles are cleared technology wise . Having said that though I ( as do BMW Mercedes-Benz etc ) really do feel that once those obstacles are overcome , Fuel Cells will become the propulsion mode of choice for whatever era they finally come into being .

      Here’s hoping ! Especially if the Hydrogen question is answered and can be used as the fuel of choice !

  3. don’t understand why hybrids haven’t adopted the the whole diesel/electric locomotive technology. the chevy volt is like this no? except it’s not diesel. that’s the only modern example i know of.

    • I’m guessing this is because a diesel serial hybrid doesn’t qualify for the tax credits electric vehicles get. So making it run partially electric as in a parallel hybrid would qualify it.

  4. What you’re talking about is technically feasable and has been discussed for the past 40 years or more. The biggest current hurdle with fuel cells is: “How do you best store the hydrogen?” Elaborate systems are currently being investigated and researched, but one simple answer is: “In gaseous or liquid form in a traditional hydrocarbon.” Consider this fuel cell: http://www.clearedgepower.com/fuel-cell/how-fuel-cells-work which uses methane as it’s source of hydrogen. It’s a relatively simple matter of putting this unit on a vehicle with a compressed natural gas tank and electric motors. Simple in concept, but the size and weight of such a unit is prohibitive for transportation.

    • The main problems with hydrogen at this point in time are as follows ;

      1) Cost and energy required to produce hydrogen as a fuel . They’re both excessive and prohibitive at this point in time

      2) Source of Hydrogen – At this point Methane is the only viable source of hydrogen which negates all and any benefits as you’re still using carbon based fuel …. this time to produce a non-carbon based fuel

      But ….. unlike E/V’s etc Hydrogen does have a future . The question being how much inot the future will it be till the problems are solved

      @ dorzok – No the VOLT does not use the same technology as a diesel electric . Diesel Electrics use a constant velocity diesel to drive a generator , which then sends electrical power to the motors . Only Neil Young’s Lincvolt ( give it a Google ) uses the CV concept to directly drive a generator . The VOLT is nothing more than an overpriced , overweight and underperforming Hybrid ala Prius etc .. Don’t believe the GM hype they’ve been putting out . Read the SAE papers on the VOLT if you don’t believe me

      • Based on the information I’ve seen (and I won’t be so naive as to not consider the possibility that the numbers are fudged by interested parties) cost isn’t the big barrier. Conider the ‘Cost’ heading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy

        The claim there is that hydrogen from coal could be as low as the equivalent of $1 per gallon. The big problem is how do you store, and transport that hydrogen before and after it gets to the vehicle. Until standard methods are developed, we can’t begin to develop infrastructure and until infrastructure is developed the concept is unworkable.

        As for the CO2, there is a big difference between CO2 generated from a tailpipe and CO2 generated at a coal gasification plant. There is no practical thing to do with the CO2 generated at the tailpipe other than vent it into the atmosphere. At the gasifiaction plant, the CO2 can be treated like teh valuable resource it is. It can be used to feed algae for biofuel production or directly reacted with other compounds to create other hydrocarbons.

      • GuitarSlinger:

        Methane is almost all hydrogen. There’s not much carbon in it. The downside to a low carbon fuel like methane is volatility and containment. It must be stored under high pressures. Gasoline is attractive as a fuel because it doesn’t need to be stored under pressure. A progression from high carbon content fuel to pure hydrogen would be something like ths:

        bunker C
        heating oil
        diesel
        kerosine
        gasoline
        butane
        propane
        methane(aka natural gas)
        pure hydrogen

        Note that as you progress down the list, the carbon content declines, volatility increases, and the difficulty of containing the fuel increases. Ethanol is the oddball in that it has a volatility similar to gasoline but a carbon content similar to propane.

  5. I saw an off-shoot of Ballard Power recently at an transportation industry tradeshow. The presentation held all the mystique of a washed-up pop diva on reality tv. A fuel cell typically nets about 40 to 60% efficiency (Wiki). Put the fuel-cell into a system and further (system) loses will be incurred. If the fuel supply is a hydo-carbon…well then the carbon becomes an emmission in some form or another.

    Given the energy density and low-pressure storage simplicity of Butane, it could probably power a Peltier cell and still produce some benefits over current battery technology.

    • Paulinator:

      I kinda like the idea of switching over to butane for vehicle fuel even in the absence of fuel cells. But I suspect some day we will end up running on ammonia…especially if they can figure out how to use ammonia in a fuel cell.

  7. This concept is more than proven. This is how most freight trains in the US work. Huge diesel engines power the generators that power the electric motors that move the train.

  8. No matter how you hash it, there are only so many btu’s in any given fuel. It really does not matter how you convert those btu’s into rotary motion, what matters is the various efficiencies involved. For a bike, mass efficiency is crucial, to go long distances a pure electric needs to store large amounts of electricity, currently that means large batteries, so that’s kills the pure EVM, other than for short hops. Hybrid extends the range, but adds complexity and now you need both batteries, a generator, and a source of fuel for the generator.

    Now, you are suggesting alternative to traditional ICE with mechanical transmission. And this, of course is a whole different game. But still we need to consider efficiencies, (Conversion of fuel to electricity, then electricity to movement) and if you are adding alternate fuels we are also adding in the biggest drawback of of hybrid/ EV, that there is no network of standardized methods of refueling. As butane isn’t something sold at hundreds of fueling stations along the road, you are again limited to a short circular trip.

    Electric vehicles are, right now at about the same stage of progress as computers were at when I first got interested in computers as a hobby. A lot of people were making their own, a few manufacturers made complete units, and there was no standardization. Every machine needed to have software written for it. Two things happened to change all that. Not sure which came first, but Apple came out with a killer app, the spreadsheet, and IBM came out with standardized, open architecture. Electric bikes need a killer app and a standard for refueling and that might be this: Bat’Lib Battery-swap System for Matra Electric Scooters
    In this scheme the killer app is short term rentals. This market would be for example resort islands, where an electric scooter would only need a few hours charge and tourists would rent them at the hotel, or ferry terminal, and replacement battery vending machines could be strategically placed around the isle. Would be a fun alternative to golf carts, at least for those without kids.

    • This is kind of off-topic, but IBM’s architecture was never deliberately open. Their technology was reverse engineered by their competitors, who then managed to win the resulting copyright dispute. That’s how the IBM-compatibles were created and hence the modern PC industry.

  9. My killer app for electric powered transport is that I ride/drive 25 country miles per day and my bike and car rest at least 8 hours at night. In theory, something should be able to reliably take a charge all day at my home, then transfer that energy to my car and or bike all night. I think that “in the future” we will all have a power generation appliance at our homes that best suits our local conditions. Something the size of a home HVAC. I might have a combination of wind and solar with natural gas as a backup. You might have something else. Ah what a wonderful day that would be…

  10. A butane fuel cell for your phone is a really cool idea! It is much easier to just plug into a power point somewhere whilst you’re out though. I can imagine that this might be handy for some situations. It certainly reflects how much people rely on their phones these days!

  12. Um… is this a really old post? Sorry if it’s already been mentioned but this is exactly how the Chevy Volt works. It’s called Range Extension Technology.