A few days ago, Christian sent me a note to be sure to check out the new Erik Buell Racing 1190RS now available for pre-orders. After all of the drama of the closure of Buell and Erik’s resurfacing with his own company, we now have the first fruits of that effort, a full on and, it appears, a rather brutally capable, sport bike.
The specs are impressive:
- 175 horsepower
- 97 foot pounds of torque
- aluminum frame with integral fuel
- Öhlins suspension front and rear
- 6 speeds with wet slipper clutch
- 389 pounds without fuel
It really is a race bike for the street, not much different in that regard from what you find in most major brand showrooms, though at $40K per copy (add $4K for carbon fiber package), it is above the range for all but a few of the most exotic race replicas.
I like what they’ve done, though it’s not aimed at someone like me who would find it far too hard edged for daily use, but seeing it compared against something from a company like Ducati in the hands of someone who could make full use of its capabilities would be extremely interesting.
What direction Erik chooses to go with future models remains to be seen, but if this is an indication of what he wanted to build all along, it’s not surprising that Harley Davidson found him an uncomfortable fit. This is not even close to what Harley would consider as being its core market or competence.
With only 100 units planned for production, you’ll be unlikely to run into one very soon and unless these sell, it may be a while before we see a follow up model of any sort. Erik has demonstrated he can build a fine motorcycle, let’s hope he can also weather the economy long enough to show us what else he has up his sleeve.
Link: Erik Buell Racing
Adi says
I love it… just gonna wait till mass production and price drop!
Tommy says
Awesome! Price is a bit steep, but hopefully they are successful and can afford for higher production runs to get the price down. I’m glad to see real motorcycles (motorcycles that handle and are fun to ride unlike cruisers) being produced in America.
Jim says
The way I understand it he’s hoping to sell these at the high price to raise $$ so he can get on his feet and has other models planned.
Fred M. says
The price is not out of line for a limited-production bike that includes components like top-of-the-line Ohlins forks and shocks, magnesium wheels at both ends, forged connecting rods, and titanium valves.
Under Harley, Erik Buell was happy producing a range of bikes that went from hard-edged sport bikes to MX bikes to adventure touring bikes. Harley shut Buell down for several reasons, but this under-reported gem might be the biggest one: At least one major police department had announced plans to replace their Harley police bikes (due to reliability issues) in favor of the newly released Buell Ulysses XB12XP police bike.
Erik Buell has stated that the 1190RS is a technological showpiece and that his intent is to see how much performance they can retain in mass-market bikes, on which you will probably see aluminum wheels, Showa forks and shocks, and an engine without the expensive machining and hot-rod internals of the 1190RS. I’m excited by the entire prospect because I’m a street sport bike rider and Erik Buell builds bikes that target guys like me. He understands that the bike on which Ben Spies turns the fastest lap time might not be the one that’s fastest in the hands of an experienced, talented street rider.
dan says
Hey I’d like to toss that one around at a track and see if the potential of me is 1/2 of the bike or even close. How is the feel how, is the fuel in the frame thing the best engineering platform for handling? These all will be answered soon enough and hopefully will allow Eric to continue to stay on the edge of his game! From where I’m sitting his game is damn sharp! Jainsville product makes good on his dream. Wisconsin produces a lot of great manufactured goods. The rest of the USA could learn a bit from the state!
cyclox says
$40K for a limited production bike of this sort isn’t that bad – especially given the amount of hands-on attention each bike is receiving. As a comparison, Honda is asking around $24,000 for their new, 250cc Moto3 bike, which is probably going to be made in similar quantities.
Once the homologation process goes through, I’m really curious to see how Geoff May will do with it in AMA Superbike. Note that it’s going to have to carry some ballast and lose the carbon fiber bits in order to comply with AMA Superbike rules.
Thom says
This is what I was waiting for all along from Buell. It’s such a shame Harley couldn’t look past a “target market”. I’m glad Erik can keep going on his own, and I hope it continues.
B50 Jim says
MIghty durn impressive! With that massive front brake it’ll stop as well as it goes. $40 Large isn’t out of reach for serious riders, so he should sell all he can make. I understand why H-D didn’t keep Eric around; this bike is so far out of the mainstream of Harley riders that it’s not on the same planet. I wish Eric well, and hope he can make enough shekels on this bike to finance production on some less-pricey, but still exciting, machines. I wonder if Harley will one day regret firing Mr. Buell?
Palmer says
If you go to erikbuellracing.com and click on “motrocycles” on the upper left corner, you’ll see something interesting: Future Models; RX (affordable street racing bike?) SX (City Bike?) AX (adventure bike?), I see a BRIGHT future.
Last but not least if you watch accurately, there are 4 available colors for this 1190RS: Abraxas Inferno, Boreas Frost, Burnt Armor or Pitch Black.
4 different colors for a special limited edition 40k sportbike? Not really.
This is only a preview of what is coming. History is repeating: also the first one, the Buell RR 1000 Battletwin was a limited edition sportbike, than we had the S1 and the Xb… stay tuned!!
akaaccount says
RX, SX, AX. YESSSSSSS
Tin Man says
Nice features and hardware, But Please get that rear end down where it belongs. Does this Bike really need 14 inches of fender clearence?? I checked out Buells before I bought my 05 Sportster Roadster, To tall for me and I’m 5 foot 11, I like Buells, but to suggest they had better reliability than a Police Harley is absurd.
james says
Tin Man, look again. The fender is very close the the tire and is mounted on the swing arm.
The seat is high because of the packaging and it makes it more comfortable when riding. Yes it would be uncomfortable when sitting at stop lights reving the motor or doing parade duty.
I am also 5′ 11″ and I can flat foot the Uly X.
I suggest reading
http://www.bmwmc.net/uploads/tm7/LAPD%20Fleet%20Report.pdf
It is LAPD’s report of the cost comparison between HD, BMW, and KAW. Guess which bike is more expensive per mile, spends more time in the shop, and has more repairs then the others. The cost estimates are for after the warranty expires.
dan says
Is Eric Buell the future of US bike technology? Right now his efforts seemed to have him at a pinnacle and the development time to get there was a bit long but the obstacles were there. Passion shows here as does engineering! Well done!
Jamoke says
“Harley shut Buell down for several reasons, but this under-reported gem might be the biggest one: At least one major police department had announced plans to replace their Harley police bikes (due to reliability issues) in favor of the newly released Buell Ulysses XB12XP police bike.”
This is the most absurd statement I have ever read. It makes so little logical sense that I cant beleive you thought you could pass this one off as anything but a random thought.
Sure, lots of Police departments have considered and some have, moved away from HD police bikes for various reasons. Usually reliability is not the reason. Your statement would have had way more credibility had you gone with a performance angle rather than a reliability angle. Everyone knows Buell’s strong suit was not reliability and even if it was the XBs used a highly tweaked version of the XL engine – made by HD.
2. Why would a company build a police bike and than object when police departments bought them? You need to explain that point further. A sale is a sale. If a police department was set on leaving Road Kings for a more “fill in blank” police bike, they would be going to Kawasaki or BMW without Buell. Its not like they would go back to HD because Buell disapeared.
Anyway, on point. Sweet bike. I hope he sells them all and makes a good run with his company. The more American manufactures the better! I root for them all.
Please provide some sort of link to this nonsense. It does not make any sense regardless of how much one hates HD. Even if one conceades on the reliability point it makes no sense.
oldtimer says
Very nice!
I know it’s a whole new beginning and all, but does anyone else think the old buel belly muffler set up hidden behind the botom body panel with a couple pipes poking out just in front of the rear wheel would look really, really good…….?
oldtimer says
No?……just me then?……k…
todd says
I’m with you. I also like the sound of those belly mufflers.
-todd
joe says
If you look closely, there IS a belly muffler on the 1190 – same as an 1125. It’s my understanding that the secondary (high mounted) canister was required to meet noise level restrictions.
If you look carefully, you’ll see that removing four or five bolts will allow you to pull off the secondary muffler.
abbe786 says
Nice to have Eric back on track!
But why has he choosen to be deliberatly short on information on the engine – ok it´s a v-twin and oversquare – but what is the cylinderangle, who makes it and where – is the blue red and white bike really just red and white, when it comes to the enginedepartment – Rotax? Can anyone fill me in?? Arnold??
hoyt says
It is the same Helicon engine designed by Buell and built by Rotax but with race-ready internals and a displacement bump from 1125cc to 1190cc.
On another note:
The title of the post prompts the following….
HD management and “core” target market should Not be looked at from just 1-2 decades worth of growth (approx. 1990 – 2007) for the same reason the current management team should not have looked to the future with primarily just the air-cooled big twin product line.
HD does have great racing heritage. Take that history into consideration over the 100+ years of its growth and this bike becomes THE bike that “could” fit. “Could” is not due to a lack of ability but current interest at the top (obviously, look at what EBR is capable of on its own in a down economy).
The dirt track success & probable WSB success with the above bike could power their next growth decade(s). Look at the diversity Ducati has going with essentially two drivetrain platforms.
Ah well, both parties are moving on due to nothing more than a difference of corporate opinion from the top down, including dealerships…but that opinion can be a very small point-in-time, relatively-speaking when talking about corporate leadership (2 CEOs in ten years). I realize a portion of HD’s leadership over the years may have not had an interest in racing all along, but they choose to ignore their own past & present history in dirt track success. They also chose to ignore:
1. the growth in the road racing sport and its related opportunities
2. the talent within their own company.
Go EBR!
On another minor note:
I’m sure Erik Buell doesn’t mind people misspelling his first name, but it is worth noting that Erik is spelled with a “k”, not a “c”
hoyt says
“The dirt track success & probable WSB success with the above bike could power their next growth decade(s).”
correction: “…could have powered their next growth decade(s).”
Another way of looking at my ramble-on is… some of the most difficult parts that a company strives to obtain WERE already in place at HD. They could have made the above great race bike alongside their great Road King with the engineering skill and manufacturing skill they once had; but they didn’t/don’t have the easy part in place: a management team that sees ALL of the opportunities that someone like Soichiro Honda saw a long time ago. Imagine if a portion of HD’s corporate leaders were replaced by Ducati leaders with a proportionate voice in the business?
HD also has something NONE of the other motorcycle companies have to their degree of success: a rich heritage in the cash cow, nostalgic cruiser market. No company can EVER bank on that motorcycling genre, which is still a big revenue stream.
The other OEMs must have been thankful all of those years that Erik Buell’s voice was not heard within the ranks of HD. If his voice was heard, HD would have the whole spectrum of motorcycling within grasp.
Paul Crowe - "The Kneeslider" says
Harley might have had the potential to cover all of the bases from legendary cruiser to bare knuckle sport bike but once they made the decision to focus on cruisers, Buell stuck out like a sore thumb. Though Harley had been a high performance name in their early years, once Honda and the other Japanese makers got rolling, Harley ceded the performance game and went for big bikes and lifestyle and made huge profits from it. Trying to get back into the sport bike world seemed like a risky, costly and somewhat pointless leap and when times got tough, it was an easy decision.
Look at this bike, seriously, what would Harley do with it? It would have to go into its own dealer network or into another multi line dealer next to Ducati, Moto Guzzi, Triumph or even one of the Big 4 from Japan but never in a Harley showroom, they treated Buell with indifference and this bike demands a dedicated and passionate sales team as will any future models.
Whatever remnants of performance enthusiasts may still exist in the Motor Company, I doubt they have a major voice in product development. Though Buell may have been unceremoniously shown the door, I think it may have been for the best in the long run.
Fred M. says
Harley Davidson has a major problem: The oldest customer base in the industry and one that’s just getting older every year. The NY Times had an article on the problem. Harley has even introduced a trike for their balance-impaired, geriatric customer base — but that’s just not a long-term solution.
They also have a problem getting younger people into their dealerships. Harley’s problem with Buell and MV Agusta was their idiotic notion that some guy buying a high-end sport bike would dream of someday “trading up” to a Wide Glide, Road King, or Electra Glide.
Now the sport bike buyers don’t set foot in Harley dealerships and most of them who move away from sport bikes are not even considering a Harley when they want a cruiser or touring bike. More and more, they end up on Gold Wings, BMWs, Japanese cruisers, Victories, Triumphs, etc.
hoyt says
Agreed. It is best in the long run with the current management and dealer outlook, but I was contemplating how much better it would have been if they listened to the performance voices too. For example, if Ducati’s Apollo bike had been a success and inspired later models in a way the early Knucks & Panheads influence the current HD catalogue, do you think the Ducati corp team would have stopped developing the 1970’s 750cc racebike into the 1198? In fact, the converse is happening now with the Daivel.
HDs success throughout the 90s is all that people, including current top corp. management at HD, think about and that is where the indifference towards Buell came about. What is more dangerous: indifference towards opportunities or complacency?
I hear you about the serious performance-level of this bike and the requisite dealer support. That infrastructure should have been part of the decision long ago in order to dominate the entire moto spectrum and fulfill the “Motor Company” nickname.
They are still complacent in their catalogue, regardless of any future sales success. It is one thing for a small company to have a narrow focus, but for a company the size that HD has become, the risk increases no matter how could of a niche it executes.
BobG says
Put well and the right way. Thank you!
BobG says
We know Fred, we know. Let’s repeat all of this a million more times.
abbe786 says
K – hoyt, ty for answer, and you are probably right on with the leadership insights – HD has been Riders Digesterised.
abbe786 says
Passion is replaced with Bling and the bike is just an accesory to a fake lifestyle.
oldtimer says
Here come the haters. What took you so long? By the way, what do you think of Erik’s new bike?
woolyhead says
It is a nice exercise in the possible…….just not my cup of tea. Housing and automobiles are being scaled back into more useful devices…….hopefully the 250cc range has not expired prematurely.
Shawn says
I think some of the commenters missed the point. This is a limited production run to homolgate the 1190RS for the AMA Pro Racing circuit. I doubt he’s making money at $40k.
Cowpieapex says
Rejoice! A Buell road-bike at any price point gives me hope that I will be on one. I remember the hope that the RR1000 generated that I could move from a succession of European motorcycles to an American ride. A dream realized when I purchased a low mileage S3T . At 60,000 miles I’ve shaped this machine into an interstate missile which I’ll be taking on a 2500 mile run to the Rockies next week.
Great work Erik! I trust you are working on my next machine today.
Fred M. says
@Jamoke and Tin Man:
I assumed that everyone reading this site would already know about the reliability problems with Harley’s police bikes. My bad.
According to the LAPD, “The Los Angeles Police Department has experienced an abnormal number of repairs due to design deficiencies and poor workmanship in the initial assembly of Harley-Davidson motorcycles. The problems encountered during the introduction of Harley-Davidsons into the fleet in late 2005 were manageable. The problems, however, have steadily increased and include the 2006 and 2007 models. During the last ten months of 2007, some of these design flaws escalated to unacceptable levels and required all of Harley-Davidson’s motorcycles to be taken out of service for numerous inspections and repairs to ensure officer safety.”
and
“Historically, the motorcycle fleet has always had an availability rate of approximately 96 to 97 percent. Beginning in 2006, the motorcycle availability rate, at times, has fallen to as low as 92 percent. This is directly attributed to the on-going failures, recalls, and the lack of parts for Harley-Davidson motorcycles. The Los Angeles Police Department was forced to retain additional spare motorcycles to meet operational needs.”
Source: http://www.bmwmc.net/uploads/tm7/LAPD Fleet Report.pdf
As to your claims that Buells were unreliable, the most reliable bike that Harley ever sold was the Buell Blast. It was the reliability of the Blast that lead Harley to give the green light to the XB line. Source: “25 Years of Buell” by Court Canfield and Dave Gess. Unlike parent company Harley Davidson, Buell had been certified as an ISO 9001 manufacturer.
You have to understand that the Buell Ulysses police model was marketed to departments “to tackle roads too rough or narrow for confident travel in a car or on a traditional police motorcycle.” In other words, it was not intended by Harley to compete with their police bikes — it was intended as a bike that would be used alongside the traditional Harley police bikes. When HD recognized the bad publicity that would result from the Buell *replacing* the Harley at any department, they were probably horrified.
I’m not at liberty to divulge which police department was ready to switch their motor officers to Buell’s police bike or where I got that information. If that means you want to call me a liar, then so be it. But it’s still true.
P.S. The XB engine was not a “a highly tweaked version of the XL engine.” In fact, there is almost no parts interchangeability between the two.
Christian "Papasan" Cerises says
Hello Paul,
Very glad you got my e-mail and looked over the EBR website! I see that many here are happy to have a World Class racing bike being built in the USA. The very best Summer riding season to everyone, I have to get out and ride my Buell 1125cr, the rain has finally stopped here in Northern California.
Best
Christian “Papasan” Cerises
Christian "Papasan" Cerises says
Back from that perfect Spring ride in Nor. Cal. Start point Oakland via the 880 North toward the Richmond / San Rafael Bridge then over and North on the 101 to the HWY 37 turn off for Sears Point, 21 miles off balls out speeding to Vallejo / US 80 then South to the Carquinez Bridge heading straight shot back into the East Bay and the US 80 takes you into the 880 South and I’m back home at the FireHouse!
What a wonderful day for a ride!
Papasan OUT!
todd says
You really should have stuck to Redwood and Pinehurst Roads, Skyline to Grizzly Peak, Wildcat Canyon over to Bear Creek Rd, along Alhambra Rd, and back to Redwood through Pleasant Hill Rd, St. Mary’s, Moraga Blvd, Canyon, and Pinehurst.
That’s a much nicer ride that’ll steer clear of all those highways you mentioned and much better suited to a quick steering bike like a Buell.
See you there.
-todd
Christian "Papasan" Cerises says
Thanks Todd, I’ll give it try next week…
Mark says
I don’t think this bike will lead to Buell reemerging as a mainstream manufacturer
Remember, prior to being purchased by HD, Buell was a limited production, high priced oddity. It was only with HD money that Buell was able to reduce cost and compete in the mainstream market. This bike is not a means to that end. Unfortunately, the only way Buell will ever find it’s way back into the mainstream market is by being purchased by a much larger company, with the resources needed for mass production.
I applaud Erik on this bike, if I was on the market for a superbike, and had the money, it would be at the top of my list though.
I wish Erik and anyone trying to sell a motorcycle in a market that practically no longer exists the best of luck.
BobG says
Again, very true. Thank you!
hoyt says
@ oldtimer – don’t confuse criticism with hate, especially when Paul’s topic prompted some HD discussion.
I think the EBR is absolutely f ‘in incredible! I’ve ridden the 1125CR and was thoroughly impressed with the instant, yet somehow still linear, power delivery. Now we have more power and Buell’s freedom to style the bike his own way.
oldtimer says
abbe786 June 14, 2011 at 4:47 pm
Passion is replaced with Bling and the bike is just an accesory to a fake lifestyle.
OK, what do you want to call it?
Same thing could be said about the “sport bike snobs” as a group. You know the type; Everything they own or do is technologically superior to anything anyone else can own or do…….and if you dare to think differently……Well then it becomes a question of lack of passion, loads of bling, and fake lifestyles.
hoyt says
I was speaking for myself. I like a good portion of what HD is doing, but see missed opportunities for rather questionable reasons.
Ironically, the comment you quoted from “abbe786” can also be heard, more or less, from within the HD ranks directed at other HD riders. (grumble, grumble, grumble)
hoyt says
I meant the crusty “faithful” when referring to ‘HD ranks”. Didn’t mean to suggest from within the company
oldtimer says
Never said there weren’t haters riding Harleys. Haters are haters. I just wonder why so many people shut themselves off from whatever aspect of the sport that they consider assanine for some reason. I ride anything I can throw my leg over…pardon me, (I’m talking about motorcycles dear…yes….really), from mopeds to GSXR. My personal favorite is my 06 Bonneville. There, admit it. A bunch of you reading this just threw up in your mouth a little bit. Guess there is good and bad in everything. Just seems more productive to enjoy whatever any bike has to offer rather than just pronouncing how bad it is and how stupid people who ride it must be.
Sorry, guess I’m just not very passionate when it comes to my sport.
And I still think the low slung Buell muffler setup would look great on this bike!! (another post)
BobG says
Guess there is good and bad in everything. Just seems more productive to enjoy whatever any bike has to offer rather than just pronouncing how bad it is and how stupid people who ride it must be.
Amen.
Scott says
Spectacular! Finally. After all these years and many bumps along the way we will be able to say, for the first time in my lifetime: “One of the best-performing sport-bikes on the planet is made in the USA.”
. . . and the best part is: I no longer have to feel nauseous when I see a Harley.
billyboy says
I’ve been a Buell owner for a dozen years, and I’ve heard and read a lot of things about my “strange” bike. I applaud all of the posters on this forum for taking a serious look at the new Buell and not like it or not, not resorting to the type of ill informed and petty carping I’ve seen in the past. As staunch a Buell supporter as I am, this bike isn’t my cup of tea, but I’m amazed at the technology and innovation that has gone in to it. I hope all the best for EBR, and look forward to an offering more my style, soon.
Thomas says
It really doesn’t matter why H.D. and Buell parted, it was the best for both partys, IMO. The best thing is there’s a new American motorcycle, and say what you will from a numbers point of view it kicks @$$! Thed U.S. is losing in so many areas that it will be awesome to see a US bike that can compete. The question is, will the people give EBR a chance to win there respect, and bussiness? I think they’re getting the respect, so let’s see what happens when the new models come out. Will the guy trading in a Duc or Honda look at the EBR? Me, I’m saving already, but I was a Buell guy, soon I will be an EBR guy.
Boog says
Looks quite Japanese…RC 51-ish.
Is this another V-Twin? Yawn….I have just acquired a big air-cooled metric cruiser due to the ;passing of a brother in law, and honestly, after years of inline fours, vertical twins, and singles, I cannot figure out what the fuss is about. Yeah, I acknowledge that they are narrow, have the “hot rod” sound, etc….
This is a nice bike, but not very different in looks to what you can get in Asian hardware. I hope it kicks butt in practice…go USA!
Anthony says
With all due respect to this website, which is amazing, I think it is disingenuous, and an affront to history, to infer that HD shut down Buell because of a $50K superbike.
It’s clear that HD shut down Buell out of fear that Buell’s $10-$15K mainline models would grow to eclipse the parent company.
It’s like the Preston Tucker story, except that at least the Big-3 had a financial motive to kill a new competitor. HD owned Buell, 100% since 1998, so it had all the upside.
But HD’s managers, some related to the founders, had too much pride to let a subsidiary’s full line of innovative American made motorcycles eventually outgrow HD’s puttering fashion accessories.
To add insult to injury HD took not only Buell’s manufacturing capacity, which it owns, but also Erik Buell’s name (which it also technically owns, but has no use for), and HD has posted the snide, unnecessary statement that “The Journey Ends Here” at buell.com.
The cowardly, myopic treatment of Buell (both the person and subsidiary) is why I will never own a Harley, although I would have only gotten a 1200 Sporster, not a profit center bike like the Screamin’ Eagle models.
Paul Crowe - "The Kneeslider" says
The point wasn’t that they shut them down because of this bike, it’s just that this bike underscores where Erik was going and the type of bike he was trying to build, something worlds apart from anything else at the Motor Company, making the Harley/Buell combo a tenuous partnership at best.
Perhaps the real wonder isn’t the ultimate breakup of the two, but instead, that Jeff Bleustein brought Buell into the Harley fold in the first place. It’s like one of those marriages you know will end in divorce. You just hope it won’t be too messy.
No one has to hate Harley as a result of the breakup, like those friends who got divorced, you can still talk to both of them even though they won’t talk to each other. The “I’ll never buy a Harley” sentiment misses the point. They’re better off apart.
bblix says
H-D shut down Buell because it wasn’t making money and was an internal distraction. Paring down and focusing on core competencies is a valid, proven, business strategy, even if it is not the most compassionate approach.
That said, while this bike isn’t my cup-o-joe, it is awesome.
Anthony says
If Harley saw Buell as a just distraction, not a competitive threat with growth potential, then it would have sold Buell like it sold MV Agusta.
Palmer says
Spending billlion dollars for MV was an epic fail. With that money they could support Danny Eslick for a badass racing season, he was doing incredibly well and racing strong (I remember a fantastic race in Mid Ohio in 2009).
They failed because they wanted to race and sell race bikes, but at one point, after spending a lot of money (the 1125 platform was not a Santa gift) they simply went back and focused in fat, overpriced cruiser bikes who nobody outside USA can afford. Here in Italy Harley’s (exept for the 883) are not affordable for most people. Price tag for the Cross Bones is 19.000 €uro! that’s 28.000 dollar$. for a springer forked overweighted piece of iron.
Win on sunday, sell on monday, that was the strategy to pursuit.
Now they wasted their money for MV and they only own a worhless Buell logo which is useless without Erik behind.
That’s a perfect marketing strategy.
Rick Eslick says
Well said.
BobG says
Absolutely right!!!
BobG says
bblix that is!
bblix says
I’ve read what everyone else has about why H-D couldn’t sell Buell. Unlike many, I talk internally with H-D employees nearly every day. The expenditure of time, money, and resources to break Buell out of H-D was too great to justify selling. MV existed ENTIRELY outside of H-D, it was nowhere near as integrated into the corporate structure.
As for H-D selling bikes outside of the US that no one can afford…well, somebody is buying them. US sales have been flat for years, while overseas sales have been on the upswing. Consistently we see HDI vehicles far exceed expectations for sales. Bash them all you want, folks with money and a love of Americana are drawn to the allure of H-D worldwide.
Jeff says
HD spent more money closing Buell than they had invested in it over the entire period they owned the brand, including the initial purchase price.
The CEO of HD had never ridden a motorcycle before becoming CEO, and considered Erik Buell’s racing effort a “hobby”.
The Buell XB engine arrived in 2003 and the following year it replaced the XL engine in the Sportster models. You might say the Sportsters have a dumbed down version of the XB engine.
Dumping Buell was the best thing HD ever did…for Erik Buell.
Phoebe says
I think it’s fantastic, and I can’t wait to see what the other models will be. The website hints at three future models.
Greybeard says
It’s not difficult to envision “MV Agusta” on the flanks of that Buell.
I can see that even from my house.
Milwaukee must be lower.
Tough to criticize Harley though. They do what they do and do it well.
So they don’t compete out of their weight class.
That’s just smart.
Through it all, Buell has my undying admiration.
Vision, focus & energy.
I’d like half.
rashomon says
A few points: the 1190RS is intended to be an homologation bike and demonstration piece for EBR can do, particularly when Geoff May starts to race it in AMA Pro Superbike later this month. CW will have the riding impression already online printed in the August issue & Motorcyclist will have a riding impression by Aaron Frank out in their September issue. From what I’ve heard, both concur that the bike is amazing. With the optional race muffler, it weighs 397 pounds full of fuel ready to ride, and Frank was hitting more than 180 mph at the end of the Road America front straight. However, the 1190RS is not particularly profitable nor represent where Erik wants to be in the motorcycle market; as the multiple bankruptcies of Bimota attest, it’s hard to make money in the boutique market. The real future of EBR is in the RX, SX, and AX models, and in motorcycles that haven’t even been hinted at yet. They’ll almost certainly be priced competitively, perhaps more expensive than some (Japanese, maybe Triumph) and less than others (KTM, Ducati).
Mark says
What you’re saying is great, provided Erik can find a deep pocket investor, or partnering with a large manufacturer. If neither happens, he’ll have no choice but to built $40K bikes forever.
You seem to be certain these new lower priced models will be coming soon, which assumes Erik will have access to huge amounts of capital soon as well, it can’t happen any other way.
So tell us, what kind of deal is in the works, and with whom???
anonymous says
As a former race team owner that campaigned a VR1000 racer, SN#001 to be exact, I find Harley’s conduct during all of the VR1000 and Buell history to be deplorable.
As an American company Harley has done everything possible to try and destroy any credible American sportbike effort. Someday someone will publish a tell-all about the Harley-Davidson racing efforts, and all of the political crap that existed inside Harley from the mid-80’s through current day.
Harley deliberately kept the VR1000 race program from Buell as they knew Buell would be successful with it. Instead they put someone else in charge and you can see how far the VR1000 program ever went.
We had a VR1000 with leased engines from Gemini Racing in the 1997 season, and the strongest engine that we ever had made 128 hp and 77ft lbs of torque. This is while my Ex-Gobert world superbike Muzzy Kawasaki ZX7RR SN# RMRF004 made 147 hp on the same dyno 10 minutes apart.
To say that I have profound disgust with Harley is a big understatement, and I really cannot wait until the entire story comes out someday.
I wish Erik all the best, and wish I had a spare $45K laying around to blow on this.
I hope (but doubt) that Polaris, Bombardier or some other company with deep pockets steps in and makes a substantial effort with this.
Best regards,
Anonymous
Paul Crowe - "The Kneeslider" says
There are two things you say that make no sense to me:
1. “Harley has done everything possible to try and destroy any credible American sportbike effort.â€
Why would they do that and yet sink money into the VR1000 effort? Are you saying they deliberately failed, deliberately losing money?
2. “Harley deliberately kept the VR1000 race program from Buell as they knew Buell would be successful with it.â€
Again, I have to ask why? Are you saying that they were against Buell personally or just wanted to prove there was no point to having an American sport bike race program or what?
I wonder if it may have been the case that a reluctant corporation was convinced by a small but dedicated group within the company to start a race program. Having done so, Harley just never gave it the support and resources necessary to succeed, perhaps surprised to find out what a successful racing effort really cost. It might have seemed like they were trying to sabotage it, if you were one of the racers or team owners, when Harley was simply focused on other things and didn’t have any commitment to racing. The result was the same but your perspective can make a big difference in what you perceive as intent.
abbe786 says
If people could limit themselves to own things that they felt passionatly about, we would all be better off.
That said; I think Eriks new bike looks really nice and that his design is more harmonious then previously – I´m much looking forward to the tecnical detail, to see what he pulled out of the drawer this time.
oldtimer says
What happens if one is passionate about “bling”………
C’mon, smile a little!?
And back to my original subject: Guess I’m going to have to master photo shop and put a proper exhaust system on this thing. Just wait…you’ll see!
Anonymous says
Hi Paul,
In response to your comments-
Inside Harley at least from the late 80’s until the end of the VR1000 program in late ’99, there was always 2 camps.
The traditional “we build Harleys” vs. the smaller younger crowd and a few vocal dealers like Don Tilley, Warr’s HD, and a select few like them.
A VERY substantial budget of $ 3,000,000 a year was allocated for the VR program, but inside orders that I believe came from the racing program manager dictated that the race program go to Gemini Racing rather than to Buell.
The board of directors did approve the budget, but the internal management still controlled it, and it pissed off the traditional/controlling crowd that they were being forced to road race.
You can read elsewhere about all the meddling that took place by the “Harley people” to keep Harley as it was/is, and get rid of Buell and sport bikes of any kind. Not all of that attitude comes from HD’s board of directors, much of it came from upper level “old guard management” and apparently still does.
So to answer your questions directly-
1. Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The VR1000 program was internally caused to fail by “old guard management”.
2. It was never a lack of financial support. I have been told by a VERY credible source that nearly $ 45,000,000 was spent on the entire VR1000 program.
It was that financial support being deliberately directed to people that could not get the job done due to constraints imposed by Harley on them.
The for lack of a better term, “Old guard Harley management” that felt and still feel that Harley is a cruiser bike company, and has no business racing or building race bikes for any reason.
The entire story of the VR1000 program and all that really happened will probably never be fully told, due to the deep pockets of HD and legal issues that would result.
No conspiracies, just a sad story of what should have been.
Anonymous
B50 Jim says
As much as I would have loved to see H-D keep Buell and its road-racing program, I understand that it put the company at war with itself. H-D’s strength has always been building big road-going bikes and cruisers, with its racing efforts confined to dirt ovals where it has its deepest roots. There is wisdom in sticking with what you do best, and the Old Guard chose the course that would best appease its core demographic.
That being said, that core demographic is fading, and a weak economy won’t allow a younger customer base to buy expensive playthings like Harleys. I believe the Motor Company is trying to attract a younger base that it needs to survive, but can’t build the product it needs to do it and still imbue that product with the H-D mystique. The Blast was a a good entry-level bike but didn’t say “Harley-Davidson”.
Sadly, Harley’s identity is so wrapped up in big V-twins that it can’t break out and offer a smaller, entry-level bike that would be a stepping stone to its big bikes. Remember its flirtation with Aermacchi? “Ride a Harley on your way up to a Harley” was the tagline. Unfortunately, the Aer looked as much like a Harley as a Craftsman lawn tractor looks like a John Deere. The customers stayed away in droves even if the Aermacchi was a pretty good bike.
There are no good solutions for Harley in a market that is increasingly saturated and stagnating. The explosive growth of the 90s is a thing of the past, and unless Harley finds a new marketing formula with the same magic as its “lifestyle” stance that was so successful for many years, its future will be one of shrinkage. But a new formula would call for new products, and the Old Guard has amply demonstrated that it isn’t willing to take that risk. Good luck, boys.
rashomon says
The internal political battles over the VR were enormous, despite Erik Buell being involved with the program early — he helped lay out the engine configuration to be effective in road-racing after a scary internal effort by Harley designers and engineers placed the oil pump and other accessories directly on the end of the crankshaft, making a V-Twin too wide to lean — engineering management in the person of VP of engineering Mark Tuttle did everything possible to cut him out as quickly as possible. Erik’s chassis for the VR was finished in 1989, a couple of years ahead of the incredibly late and troubled engine program, and was amazing — aluminum twin-beam, fuel-in-the-frame, flip-up huge airbox with ram air, 54-inch wheelbase, quick-fill in the nose (lift the windscreen and go) to prevent dumping fuel on the rider at Daytona, modern and desirable weight distribution, outstanding aerodynamics wind-tunnel tested — yet Harley never tested it, commissioning a chassis from Harris in England instead. The engine cases of the VR were redesigned so they wouldn’t even fit the Buell frame — Erik still has some of the deep-sump original engines that will. The eventual VR that emerged had too little weight on the front, and no effective airbox — both issues that compromised it forever. With the Ford sponsorship coming in for the Harley road-race program, the peak spending for the VR between the race team and engineering reached $7m a year — never has so much been spent in motorcycle racing for so little effect. It was entirely an management failure. At one point, near the very end of the program, Tony Stefanelli at Buell (Tony was considered an engineering god by Harley management, as his programs came in on time and on budget, something that no one at Harley delivered) was given a VR to see what Buell could do to enhance the bike. A relocated steering head allowed by adding split radiators quickly produced lap times lowered by 1.5 seconds. The official race team wouldn’t test the bike.
jar says
God’s don’t run spreadsheets, engineers that can’t design do.
Split radiator was an outcome of desired increased cooling capacity in a smaller package, not as a necessity to permit wheelbase/rake change.
Steering stem relocation/reposition was accomplished in the stock, unmodified, steering head.
Define “official race team” – I’d say Pascal Piccote and Mike Smith were pretty official at the time.
Define “quickly produced”.
“Lap times lowered by 1.5 secs” where and when, compared to what and who?
Fred M. says
B50Jim: Well written.
Harley’s whole lifestyle thing was based on a rebel image, which was great marketing until the brand went mass-market, with everyone from the high school band teacher to the local divorce attorney riding around on one.
Harley’s marketing turned the dealerships into upscale boutiques, selling everything from Harley wine glasses to Harley-branded foo-foo-dog fashion accessories. That undermined the whole down-and-dirty, rebel-without-a-cause, biker tough guy image that they were trying to sell.
Buell and MV Agusta could have been Harley’s salvation, bringing in an entire younger demographic, some of whom would move from hard-core sport bikes to naked bikes to sport touring bikes — all of which could have been sold under the Buell or MV Agusta names. But Harley couldn’t understand that ownership of a chromed out cruiser was not the pinnacle of motorcycling to many riders. Some of the idiots at Harley actually believed that Buell and MV Agusta would draw in younger sport bike riders who would then think, “gee, I’d really rather have a chrome-festooned Road King.”
While some buyers are put off by the price of a Harley in this economy, the real problem is that a smaller percentage of buyers want a Harley. There’s not one produced that I would have trouble affording, but I can’t find one that I’d actually like to own. And I’m not a hard-core sport bike guy. I’ve got a couple of Buell naked bikes (1125CR and XB12Ss), a dual sport Suzuki DR-Z400S, a Genuine Stella (which is basically a continuation of the Vespa P150 scooter model), and a couple of dirt bikes that I’ll get running “someday.” I may be buying a Royal Enfield C5 Bullet 500 and/or and Aprilia Mana 850 GT ABS with hard bags. I’ve even toyed with the idea of a Triumph Rocket III. But the appeal of Harleys are lost on me.
hoyt says
The old guard failed miserably with assumptions that road racing & sport bikes aren’t complimentary to the “what we do” mindset. It is foolish to think even the most stereotypical crusty HD rider wouldn’t enjoy seeing the above bike beat Italy’s & Japan’s best in a race. (hypothetically, an HD badge on it would be best for proper brand rallying affect among the faithful and to proudly boast the “Motor Company” mantra).
I tried to say above…all of this enormous frustration (and loss of growth) comes down to a very small point-in-time from a relatively small number of people: corporate decision-makers pushing their own agenda. Thousands of HD workers would definitely get behind building the above bike with the right corporate leaders. Across HDs 100+ years, there are two decades (late 80s – 2007) where some misguided, corporate “managers” failed to exercise enormous talent from their own employees. This pursuit would have in no way diluted the lucrative “what we do” but added to it for decades to come.
However, this Old Guard did manage to push forward a different message of “what we do” & it has been received by many dealerships and “faithful”. Ironically, that message has come back to hurt HD with the V-Rod model range, a derivative of the VR racing platform. The “faithful” back to HD: “that VRod is not ‘what we do’ ” as the sales figures indicate.
hoyt says
moving on…it will be a long time before HD has a chance to successfully change the ‘message’. Meanwhile, here’s to mass production from EBR, whether it be from an independent effort or a lasting, intentionally integrated part of a larger company.
Thom says
Wow, this turned into a very serious discussion! Obviously, anything to do with Buell is going to turn into this from here on out.
I don’t like Harley. I never have! But even I am beginning to see how the split between Harley and Erik Buell is a good thing. Erik was being stifled. Now he isn’t. This gorgeous bike it’s proof.
On a lighter note, this bike has one detail that really makes me smile. The rear wheel looks exactly like the one on my 86 VF1000R!
Christian "Papasan" Cerises says
Lucifers Toenails! I have been in the saddle for the last few days and wasn’t here to witness the malee!
I contend that all Motorcycles are the beauty in the eye of the beholder and to each his/hers own.
Papasan
rashomon says
Compared to the VR as when Stefanelli and the Buell team started working on it. There were two stages of improvements. The first split the radiators to move the front wheel aft (not for cooling) which was done with bolt-in pieces in the existing frame, effectively relocating the steering axis. The second was to shorten the tank and move the rider forward 4 inches. The goal was to change the percentage of weight on the front wheel from about 48 percent to 51 percent. (For reference, the 1190RS is over 55 percent on the front, and 800cc GP bikes are 58 percent). Shawn Higbee was the test rider, and the lap time improvements were 1 to 1.2 seconds for the first round of changes, and another 1.5 seconds for the second, for a total of 2.5 seconds. Despite this, the official H-D VR team wasn’t interested, and had excuses when the Buell VR went faster in joint test sessions than their bike. Smith eventually rode the bike at a Buell test session, went faster, and tried to get the team interested in running the bike. Finally, toward the end of the season, Picotte tried it, liked it, and also ran it in a practice session at a National. He crashed in the practice session, did the race on his back-up bike, and the VR program came to an end without the changes ever being raced.
fast eddie says
To the folks at EBR the bike is sweet . The numbers are up there, hopefully the 100 your going to make will sell quickly. I’d have to agree with Cowpieapex. My S3T changed my view of motorcycles made in the. usa.
In the future when the 1190 w/ wieght added wins on the track { sunday } your bikes will sell like hotcakes on [monday] . My desire would be some suttle tweeks here and there to suit a street rider that had no interest in tripleing the speed limit. . Like a comfortable two up seat and some detachable bags . You have done it before Erik , its what the real riders want. To paul at kneeslider I’m shocked after watching your site knowing the the new buell has been released it took a email from a reader to get you ” cluded ‘” in.
good luck eddie
rashomon says
“Gods don’t run spreadsheets, engineers who can’t design do”
Designers who can’t deal with costs and deadlines may be good artists, and good engineering managers may make careful use of them, but they’re certainly not geniuses. I think Steve Jobs had the last word on this, “Real geniuses ship.” If the VR program was so brilliant, where were the results?
hoyt says
Thanks for your input. Very interesting.
rohorn says
He really should contribute a Buell article for Cycle World some time.
Sanders says
Nice looking bike and I wish Erick Buell the best of luck. One thing though, that I can’t help but wonder about is the market ready for a bike like this. Buell only made about 125k bikes during their 25 year run. I know not all of them are still on the road, some have been totalled, some have been forgotten in sheds, and some have been turned into choppers. Let’s assume that maybe a little more than half are still on the road. So maybe there is 75k to 90k Buell riders out there. Is that enough to keep a company afloat? I can’t see to many current Buell riders forking over the 40k for a 1190RS, or at leat the Buelligans I roll with. I would say even the future models will probably out of the price range of alot of potential buyers. Especially when you can get a very good used bike for under 6k. I think EBR will have a hard time drawing in the Japanese crowd and the Ducati crowd might give it a glace. What does that leave the KTM RC8, maybe Fischer crowd? Although I’m not sure Fischer has a crowd yet. It will be interesting to see what the future holds for EBR. I’m afraid it is destined to be a high end bike low production company like Confederate or Ecosse.
Till then, I have a Buell S3 that I love and is an enjoyable ride even though it has some quirks.
Phil says
Harley hasn’t made anything I’m interested in since they made the Topper. I mean really, a Harley ridden by an old fat guy with a gray beard is so common, it’s almost become a cliche.
Greg says
Guess what Phil. One day you are probably going to be an old fat guy with a gray beard. That is why Harley survives. If you are still riding a sport bike at 50 years old I would say you are an exception to the rule. I don’t see a lot of 50 year olds riding sport bikes. Amazingly the sport bike riders seem to gravitate towards Harley’s one day.
Christian "Papasan" Cerises says
Excuse me, but I ride a Buell 1125CR and I’m 50, so speak for yourself Kid!
rohorn says
Does this mean I need to sell my ol’ ZX9R in less than 2 years?
Besides, I did the H-D thing several decades ago, back when I was in my 20s and 30s.
Hooligan says
Don’t see 50 year olds riding sportsbikes?
Come to Europe and in particular England, it seems to me 80% of sportsbike riders are over 40. (Only they can afford the insurance).
I am 59, not fat, do not have a beard and don’t have grey hair – what’s left of mine is totally white. I don’t ride a sportsbike, only because I think them silly and uncomfortable, but do ride a Triumph Street Triple R. Once a hooligan always a hooligan.
MJRPhoto says
I am 52 and ride my 1125R and 1125CR all the time.
yoga4peace says
54 years old and I rode a 2009 1125R from L.A. to Seattle, Sturgis S.D., Chicago them home near Dayton, OH. last summer. The 1125R was my fourth Buell and easily my favorite mostly because of the smooth water cooled engine. First was a Cyclone then a Blast followed by a XB9r. In a year I put over 12000 miles on my 1125R and what I learned from that experience was dealer service and support is paramount for enthusiasts that ride. I have always said Harley-Davidson did not make the best motorcycles, but their dealer network and service support is second to none and if you don’t ride that much the smartly marketed and executed lifestyle may be down your alley.
My trip made me aware of the waning interest for Buell owners and their bikes at the dealer level and when I got home and learned a wonderful Buell dealer, F&S in Dayton, OH was sold that was the straw that broke the 1125R’s back. I sold the bike while the getting was still good and now I am waiting patiently for my new EBR to be built. Until details of all the new models are released I won’t be buying a EBR. Currently riding a Honda Ruckus around and having a great time.
I was a Harley-Davidson dealer Sales and F/I mgr in the Pacific NW in the 90’s and remember when the Motor Co. rep. dropped off a Buell Cyclone for us to Demo and introduce to us and our customers. No one at the dealership disliked the bike, but introducing a bike line with a gross profit potential of under $2000 per unit and taking away space from Sporters with an average gross of over $2500 and Big Twins over $4000 challenged the most enthusiastic Buell supporters arguments to sell and support the brand. We also recognized that a Sportster owner would segway to a Big Twin , but not so much a Buell owner. I aggressively reached out to the motorcycling community and scheduled test ride after test ride. What I learned was that most of the customers that would have purchased a Buell did not relate well to the sales and marketing model that was/is Harley-Davidson. One customer summed it up best, “Buell was a logical choice and a Harley is a emotional choice”.
Now I wonder, can EBR go where Buell never did, into the ether, where the consumer will remember how they felt at the end of the day of riding or after just talking about their bike. The stories need to start soon and they need to be generated from Troy. The current AMA Superbike series is a good start and the two podiums are amazing in the first full year of racing, but Troy is not telling the story. A good story trumps a good bike any day. Look at Harley.
Ride Free