Thunder Star 1200 Diesel by Star Twin

Thunder Star 1200

Thunder Star 1200

Stop the presses! er... stop the keyboards, I love this! Star Twin, a company over in Holland, has designed and built the Thunder Star 1200 TDI Sportbike. This is a 1200cc, three cylinder turbocharged direct injection diesel. They started with a 3 cylinder diesel engine from the VW Lupo, redesigned numerous parts using SolidWorks 3D computer modeling software, created patterns from those models and had them cast in aluminum. They use an FJ1200 5 speed gearbox. The frame is their own design.

Power output begins at 80bhp and 165 foot pounds of torque, BUT, a bit of remapping of the engine controls increases this to 120bhp and 250 foot pounds at 5500rpm! The bike weighs 450 pounds. You do the math, by my calculations that results in an ear to ear grin. The bike is not to the production stage yet and they are exploring lots of different configurations, touring, commuter, etc.

I saw this in Sport Rider magazine and looking around the net found lots of references but info is a little sparse, the Star Twin site is all in Dutch so it takes a bit of translating to get much more. Lots of pictures here.


  1. John says

    Wow! I love diesels! I would love to have one of those. That is a uniqu bike. What a torque.

  2. simon brown says

    hi guys
    regarding diesel powered motorcycles do any of you know what the diesel speed record stands at, and who ratified it, also what speeds have you reached with thunder star
    look forward to your reply
    best regards
    simon brown

  3. Andrew says

    I find myself wanting one. But which of the posted numbers are correct? At 5454 RPM, very close to the mentioned 5500 RPM, 1 foot pound = 1 BHP. So, according to the formula it should either be: 250 BHP (seems high) 120 foot pounds (possible, but kind of high revs for a diesel) or @ 2500 RPM (I like this story the best because many diesel engines are not designed to rev above 4000 RPM).

    Anyone know?

  4. kneeslider says

    This is too early on a Saturday morning to be thinking…

    The number for calculation is actually 5252 but your point is well taken. The Star Twin site has been completely redesigned since I last visited and I can’t find the specs anymore. The Sport Rider story has them but I’m looking for more info.

    I think we need a horsepower and torque curve graph for a stock VW Lupo diesel. Wonder if we have some newton meter conversion issue or something… checking…

  5. Tim says

    On the “120bhp and 250 foot pounds at 5500rpm!” quote… since diesels make the most torque down low.. I bet the statement should have seperated the 120/250… 250 ft-lbs (somewhere) and a peak power of 120bhp at 5500rpm…

    but we’ll see.. sign me up as well.. or someone ship me a lupo motor and I’ll take care of this myself.

  6. Colin says

    My VW gets 50mpg at it’s best RPM (2250 turns) and sixty five miles per hour. Two things work against you at higher speed/rpms. You are no longer at your most fuel efficient rpm and drag increases by the square of your speed. High speed equals bad economy. No one can brake that rule. If you do some horrendous streamlining and add gears then maybe faster is better.

  7. SofireGuy says

    Yeah… its too bad the US won’t let us import it because of the mileage it will get…. like a european car that gets 80 mpg… they won’t let it in … : \

  8. Dave S. says

    Please point out to me any law that says high-mileage cars can’t be imported into the US. I’m dying to hear this.

  9. Pete says

    Due to the Emissions regulations in the US and how they are written they favor high fuel consumption vehicles. On paper at least with CARB regulations a V10 gasoline engine is cleaner than a 50 mpg modern green diesel.

    Regulations in the US do not address C02 output thus the reason the US refuses to got on board with the Kyoto treaty.

    Diesels in the US have been forced to meet strict emissions on high sulfur fuels, translated they can’t use modern catalytic converters which will allow them to beat current gasoline engines in terms of cleanliness, factor in lower CO2 and the gasoline engine will be rendered obsolete. Sulfur once the US reduces to to the European standard of 15ppm will then be able to offer engines that afford 80-100+mpg’s that the rest of the world enjoys.

    Large cars like BMW 7 series, Mercedes S500, Audi A8 all enjoy big diesels that get in excess of 35 mpg…can’t bring them in the US because they polute according to CARB.


  10. Dave S. says

    The gentleman said, “Yeah… its too bad the US won’t let us import it because of the mileage it will get.” Nothing about pollution regs.

  11. Keith J. says

    The oil companies that are the REAL powerbrokers in the US will not allow the government to allow this technology into the country because their profits will go bye-bye. EPA regs- federal controlled- are the real issue. CARB only applies to California. Pollution regs are the excuse that the government uses to keep out what the oil companies tell them to keep out.

  12. Bubba Jeff says

    Guys (&gals?)

    United statsians for the most part do not care about fuel economy(although that may change this year) and purchase big fat cars ’cause they are big fat people therefore there is a very small market for cars that get good fuel economy. Having worked at a VW dealer for many years in Canada I have seen diesels being very popular for a long time. As well we, way up north have had the smart car for a couple of years.
    This year you are going to see some micro cars enter the states and we’ll see how the sale volume is over the long term. Already Ford is offering 0% financing on it’s hybrids due to fall off in sales and they want to keep the price up.

    Should oil remain at 60+$ over the longer term we will see more high mileage alternatives…big diesels, microcars etc. as the demand will ramp up and it will be profitable for the manufacturers to bring ‘em here. Low sulfur fuel will be a great aid as for the most part the rest of the cars(ie A8, BMW 7’s etc.) meets US regulation and are sold there.

    Those of you that get “Top Gear” (a British car show) may recall that Jeremy drove an Audi A8 diesel from London to Scotland and back (800 MILES not KM’s, MILES!) on one tank of fuel avg…40 MPG in a land tank.

    The good ones are coming…be patient.

  13. Brad W. says

    I drove a Kia Sedona minivan with a turbodiesel in 2000 during a trip to Scotland. I thought it was great. Good mileage, useful amenities and a cool hoodscoop for the intercooler, relatively quiet, decent performance, and it started right up with the turn of the key…no waiting on glowplugs. The following year Kia decided to import the Sedona to the U.S., so I checked out their display at the Cleveland auto show. I inquired about the possible availability of the diesel, and much to my chagrin the reps told me there were no plans to import that engine…only the gas varieties.

    It’s a similar story across the board. I have a Dodge Neon right now and was thinking I might like a new Caliber when the time comes to invest in something newer, but the engine I’m most interested (other than the SRT-4 with 300 h.p.) is the diesel engine that will be available on European market Calibers but not here in the U.S. What gives?

    I did drive the Jeep Liberty with the turbodiesel and was impressed with its spirited performance and smoothness, but in most cases I just don’t need an SUV and it doesn’t get GREAT mileage…at least not enough better than the gas engine to justify the higher initial cost and the consistently higher price of diesel fuel over regular unleaded.

    I sincerely hope that Ford follows through on its Reflex concept car. It is the most promising thing I’ve seen from Ford technology-wise in a long time. I would line up to get a diesel-hybrid lightweight sporty car that gets 60-80 mpg if they keep the price under $20,000 or maybe even as high as $25K, although at that price it would be fighting for my dollars against a Mustang or SRT-4.

  14. says

    I’d sell my over weight, gas powered, Harley if they imported a reasonably priced Thunderstar to the US. I also want a mid-sized, diesel pickup, but they won’t import them to the US.

    Vote Libertarian or Green!

  15. Dan O. says

    I’d love to see a diesel motorcycle like this get produced and sold in the US. Diesel engines ARE the future, gasoline needs to just go away.

    I used to have an ’84 Chevrolet K5 Blazer (4×4) with the 6.2L V8 diesel, and could get 900+ miles to a tank (31 gal) on road trips. Screw gasoline and these retarded prices.

  16. Dean Zarnoth says

    Does anyone remember the Ford Escort Diesels? I had one! l loved it! 60+ miles to the gallon and enough torgue that you couldn’t stop the car in 5th gear with brakes unless you put it in neutral or declutch! Talk about RPMs, mine had a “orange” line at 5500RPM and a “Red” line at 6000. You could leave THREE black marks on the road with it… two from the tires and one from the exhaust. Gee, I wonder how I blew the head?!

  17. Scott A says

    I want a diesel car (Mercedez E350 diesel) and a Diesel bike… but I live in CA and they won’t let us have anything. Bull$h!TT GOV!

  18. pedalpwr says

    Diesel drives me nuts. It rattles and stinks and rumbles and has whiney turbos. Yet I can’t help loving it. The new diesels are almost too smooth and quiet, but alas…

    The Thunder Star would give me a big grin just hearing it idle–in addition to every time I accelerated hard past a fuel station. That bike was love at first sight, gotta get me one of those when they’re available. But until then, or fuel gets cheaper, I’ll just have to keep commuting on my Wheaties-fueled bicycle.

    I had an ’81 diesel Rabbit that got close to 50 mpg, which I didn’t even have to ever get smog-tested, and I live in CA. Just heard a diesel Mercedes purr by me in the parking lot last month; maybe that mean Governator has relented??

  19. Rev says

    Diesel truly needs to make a major comeback here in the states. In the past, there were many diesel vehicles made. But as air pollution controls came into effent, diesels were quickly shot down. So now, people in the US seem to have bad opinions about them, even though the only experience they have with them is from big trucks. New diesels are cleaner, quieter, and powerful. I would love to see this bike, or other bikes like it, make it into production. I’d also like to see more diesel cars as well. There was a time when Polaris made a diesel ATV. Sadly, because of it’s higher price, and a somewhat poorly designed engine, it didn’t sell very well. But the potential was HUGE!!!

  20. erik nordeng says

    The diesel motorcycle is a must. For the past 17 years my personal cars and trucks have been diesel. My VW Vanagon is burning “Blended Veggie Oil” right now (No Heating of fuel oil). I’m a retired Chief Engineer from the Merchant Marine and sail the “Slow speeds” blended burning heavy oil. Keep me posted Erik

  21. borisz says

    Hi there, I drove diesel powered cars in the past (VW golf). Good mileage on this cars. When i see the fuel prices overhere (Netherlands 1 gallon of gasoline $7.18) it takes my breath.
    Thats the reason why i nowadays dont own a car anymore and occasionally rent one during the holidays!

  22. vee4rider says

    Honda has announced that they are developing a gasoline powered, compression combustion engine. Knowing Honda, that usually means the engine is ready for production…..

  23. says

    I was really surprised to learn that the Hayes company in California is building a single cylinder 600 CC DIESEL for the US Marines, I believe over 750 of them. They are in service in Afganistan right now!! Their website is; http://www.diesel These bikes are based on the Kawasaki 650 dirt bike frames.This information was found through a thread fromWIKIPEDIA, “The free encyclopedia” ENJOY!!

  24. says

    The Audi R10 that slaughtered everybody at the !@ Hours of Sebring and the 24 Hours of LeMans in France this past June was diesel powered. It is a twin turbo intercooled V12 that booms out 650 BHP @ 6,500 rpm yet got 27 mpg in race trim. This from Auto Week and Road and Track magazine.

    GIven that VolksWagen GMbH owns Audi and the technology is proven the way I see to get diesels, bio-fuel or whatever big here in America is the classic way: Sue the EPA, the Detroit Idiots and the oil barons along with the CARB for price manipulation (read gouging) efforts detrimental to interstate commerce, contributing to decline in homeland Security and when this hits the news wires their spin doctors will find their teflon full of holes. Then let the polticians know that “if you don’t approve legislation favorable to these high mpg vehicles YOU won’t win any more elections and the Green Libertarians will have your head. Along with the Sierra Club, Earth First and other adversaries”

    Far fetched? Maybe. But think of how the anti-nuclear war movement back in the 1980s backed by motion pictures such as “Threads” “The Day After”
    and “Testament” helped bring the Cold War down to its present level…

  25. puckhead says

    canada has lots of deisel vehicles on the road.european – vw,mercedes benz,volvos and domestic most significantly full sized trucks from ford,dodge and and nissan have also sold deisel vehicles in the past up here. dont think thier cheap either- a dodge truck with a cummins desiel in it will put you back around $40000 to $50000. we also have been using propane and natural gas for 20 years and yes you can find it at lots of national gas stations chains. the down side is little smart cars take the good parking spots for motorbikes.

  26. says

    Do you know about the British made Diesel bike?

    The Ecorider is the first of its kind worldwide, is a real breakthrough in off-road access and mobility.

    Towing capabilities, a narrow profile, wide tyres, easy operation, safety and a sensible price tag make this a truly remarkable workhorse.

    It does 120mpg on diesel, nad has 83% less CO2 emissions that an average quad bike.

    Visit or call +44 (0)1667 459988 for more information

  27. Ferdinand says

    I think a diesel motorbike would be very interesting. I have a spanish 1997 Seat Toledo 1.9 liters 4 cilinders TDI with 90 horsepower (105 really measured at the dyno, and 135 really with a power chip) and at 90 kmh continued the fuel comsuption is only 3.0 liters every 100 km (in the USA this would be about 126 km/gallon). I have made in these years more than 600.000 km with only changes in the timing belt (every 80.000 km) and oil (mobil 1 every 25.000 km). The car is as good as new (would need only little body repair), and it would be amazing to have the same tech in a motorbike engine. I hope one day we can buy a cruiser with such durability and economy of use. Ferdinand from Spain, Europe.

  28. ant says

    so picture this. your at a stoplight on you gixxer 1000, and some deisel bike pulles up net to you. how lame can a small deisel motor sound!!!! i hope this doesnt become popular, it might lead to the phasing out of current 4stroke streetbikes. just like the recession of 2 stroke dirtbikes…….2 stroke for life!!!

  29. Gloria says

    The first thing to consider is that the diesel engine has two huge enemies: the petrolium industry and the car industry.
    If we all switched to diesel today the fuel use would drop to half wich is obviosly disastrous for the oil giants. Also there a growing infrastructure of non mineral fuel as well as the use of waste oils.
    Tha car industry can throw toghether very cheaply making the profit margin much lower for diesel. Remember the disastrous GM engines? Thats what happens when you try to make a gas engine run on diesel.
    The emission standards for diesel are far more stringent than gas engines. In fact when the equipment used for gas engines measures a diesel it registers zeros. In 2001 manifactureres took a huge hit with the introduction of EGR (althoe Caterpiller chose to ignore the standards and make its customber pay the fines). Now 2007-2009 the new standards are to make new engine zero emission. VW gave up for 2007 but they will be back.
    Basically everything you were told against diesel is either false or outdated. The blue high sulfur diesel was stopped in the 70’s, now ultra low sufur is here. gas engines pollute thousands of times more than diesel. With a new automotive diesel The the sound is equivalent to the gas engine and if it smokes it is faulty and needs to be fixed. Compared to a good fuel injected gas engine the diesel uses half the fuel. New diesels are equivalent in size and weight to gas engines. It is actually easyer and cheaper to hop up a diesel. The sound of a 600 Hp big cam Cummins is more beautyfull than any gasser.
    I could go on but some people will never be convinced. They remain faithfull to their religious conviction of the evil of diesel.

  30. Terry Molnar says

    I came across this and thought you all might find it interesting.

    Junk Science: Green Gas-Lighting?
    Thursday , May 03, 2007
    By Steven Milloy
    We will continue this column’s look at the unintended consequences and knee-slapping irony of our society’s mindless lurch toward becoming “green” by considering two new studies on alternative fuels.
    From hybrid cars costing far more than they save in the way of fuel economy to Northern latitude forests causing global warming, to mercury-containing compact fluorescent light bulbs potentially turning homes into toxic waste sites, it’s becoming more apparent every day that green-ness is not necessarily what it’s cracked up to be.
    Perhaps you have fallen (as did President Bush and the Congress in the Energy Policy Act of 2005) for the ethanol lobby’s line that ethanol is a “cleaner-burning fuel.”
    You may then be quite chagrinned to learn about a new study in the journal Environmental Science & Technology (April 18) from Stanford University atmospheric scientist Mark Z. Jacobson concluding that ethanol poses substantial health risks.
    “If every vehicle in the United States ran on fuel made primarily from ethanol instead of pure gasoline, the number of respiratory-related deaths and hospitalizations would likely increase,” states the media release for Jacobson’s study.
    “Ethanol is being promoted as a clean and renewable fuel that will reduce global warming and air pollution,” said Jacobson, “but our results show that a high blend of ethanol poses an equal or greater risk to public health than gasoline, which already causes significant health damage.”
    Jacobson’s results are based on computer modeling of future air quality based on two scenarios — a vehicle fleet fueled by gasoline and a vehicle fleet powered by E85, a popular blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline.
    Jacobson’s modeling found that while E85 vehicles reduce atmospheric levels of two carcinogens — benzene and butadiene — they increase the levels of two other carcinogens — formaldehyde and acetaldehyde.
    “As a result, cancer rates for E85 are likely to be similar to those for gasoline,” Jacobson said.
    The study also projected a 4 percent increase in ozone-related deaths nationwide (9 percent for Los Angeles) and increases in asthma-related emergency room visits and respiratory-related hospitalizations.
    Jacobson concluded by asking, “If we’re not getting any health benefits, then why continue to promote ethanol and other biofuels?”
    The ethanol lobby’s effort to parry to this study amounts to changing the subject. On its Web site, the American Coalition for Ethanol directs the media to another analysis that “shows that ethanol use reduced carbon monoxide and particulate matter emissions by at least one-third.” Carbon monoxide and particulate matter, however, are entirely different substances than formaldehyde and acetaldehyde.
    Less than a week later, a study published in Chemistry and Industry, a journal of the Society of the Chemical Industry, reported that biodiesel, another alternative motor vehicle fuel, “could increase rather than reduce greenhouse gas emissions compared to conventional diesel.”
    According to the media release, researchers compared the emission of greenhouse gases by the two fuels across their overall life cycles from production to combustion in cars.
    Though the results showed that biodiesel (derived from rapeseed grown on dedicated farmland) emits nearly the same amount of carbon dioxide as conventional diesel when burned in an engine, growing rapeseed emits significant levels of nitrous oxide (laughing gas), which is 200 to 300 times more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.
    Unfortunately for the greenhouse gas-crazed European Union, rapeseed-derived biodiesel is the major biofuel used across Europe and was expected to play an important role in helping the EU to meet its greenhouse gas reduction commitments under the Kyoto Protocol. Under a 2003 EU directive, biofuel use is supposed to increase from 2 percent of all transport fuels to 10 percent by 2010.
    But we ought not be too surprised. It’s part-and-parcel of the folly of eco-panic — like the ongoing problem with the fuel additive known as MTBE.
    In the 1980s, environmentalists pressured Congress to require that so-called oxygenates be added to gasoline to reduce tailpipe emissions. Of the two oxygenates available at the time, MTBE and ethanol, the Environmental Protection Agency blessed MTBE because it was cheaper and easier for refiners to use than ethanol.
    What no one counted on was the 1980s-era problem of leaking underground storage tanks (known as LUSTs) at gasoline stations and other storage facilities.
    The combination of MTBE’s high water solubility — meaning it moves faster than other fuel components in soil — and the widespread problems of LUSTs turned MTBE into a national groundwater nightmare, which, according to a 2005 American Water Works Association study, could cost $25 billion to $33 billion to clean up.
    Moreover, while oxygenated gasoline (also known as “reformulated gasoline” or “RFG”) added $0.10 to $0.20 to the price of a gallon of gas, it’s unclear whether any public health or environmental benefits were derived from its use. As the National Academy of Sciences reported in 1999, “although long-term trends in peak ozone in the United States appear to be downward, it is not certain that any part of these trends can be significantly attributed to the use of RFG.”
    While further study of ethanol and biodiesel are needed, the current round of alarming results raises lots of pressing questions that ought to be considered before we take another environmentalist-prodded MTBE-like plunge into The Great Green Unknown.

    Steven Milloy publishes and He is a junk science expert, and advocate of free enterprise and an adjunct scholar at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

  31. Steve says

    Sneak the damn things in! With the help of the internet you can procure euro-diesel engines and start reto fitting them to “American” spec cars, trucks, and motorcycles. Don’t tell the emission testors, and they will never know. When our country was held down by the burocrocies of our British friends, our founding fathers went around the laws to better our nation. If big business and oil tyrants won’t allow us to help our own environment and economy, then we have the obligation to work “around” the laws until we can get them changed. Don’t stand still and wait for “big brother” to help. it won’t happen. We must start the movement, while at the same time working within the laws and our elected representitives to change the system in place.

  32. says

    I bet it has a huge amount of torque. But the top end is probably limited. I wonder it they import them if there are going to be any problems? I’m not sure if other states have similar laws coming out. But in California diesel vehicles are going to have some sort of new smog control devices on them. Which is mandatory starting I believe in 2008.

  33. jasper FROM HOLLAND says

    here is a site in PDF and in English about the star twin TDI.
    You knew the gasoline in the US is very cheap compared to dutch gasoline. We pay $7,90 per gallon of gasoline and diesel is getting more expansive too. $3.60 dollar per gallon. But he who said te world was fare?? when you get used to driving smaller cars with a maximum of a 2 liter engine our fuel consumption will drop too, so sell your big V8 and buy an inline 4cilinder. The can have a 140 bhp whit eaze!!

    greetz form holland!!

  34. Beaugrand®™© says

    Someone is missing the obvious oportunity here: once the design is finalized, import the bike as a kit, to be assembled by the buyer. A fair number of parts could be sourced locally to keep the kit cost down.

    “Homebuilt” vehicles fall under state law, not Federal.

  35. Jason Hancock says

    I have been searching for a truly practical alternative to a long-distance touring bike for a number of years. It started when I owned a 1986 Honda Goldwing – loved that thing, very comfortable, and as long as the carbs were set right, I’d out-perform and 1500 Wing out there. I’d even keep pace with some smaller CC sport bikes.

    But, I barely got 270kms to a 20liter tank of fuel. It was a huge pet-peve and ultimately was the reason for me selling the bike. This did, however, spark some creativity.

    I realize that Diesels seem to be a niche market. Up here in Canada, we do have more options for Diesels than I have noticed in the US. We do not, however, even come close to comparing to those available across the pond.

    I started my research into Diesel motorcycles a few years back. I have been trying to get funding, assistance, sponsorship, or just somebody to listen and take me seriously. I know there are bikes out there (the KLR650 based Diesel for the US military, etc.), but a practical long-distance touring bike has yet to be made.

    I will not discourage anyone from producing a Diesel powered anything, but keep in mind that with that great fuel economy and performance, speed isn’t everything.

    For my design in mind, I have a few engines and donor frames to choose from. The bike has not taken shape yet (it awaits a shop – whenever I can find one), and ranges in size from 800cc to 1900cc. I’d prefer the smaller, but there is a fine line between trying to be economical and being cheap. I had visions of showing up at a bike show with a 1.9L VW TDI powered two-wheeled beast (similar to the Wing or Venture), pulling a 19foot bayliner boat just to showoff.

    I had written a few letters to VW to aquire the 1.2L Lupo engine with a mechanical pump for North America. I have not received an answer as yet and the prospects are not looking good.

    I welcome anyone with an opinion or suggestions to help move this project along. Anyone with a donor bike, frame, parts, engine, etc, working or not, please email.

    Thanks, and enjoy. In the meantime I will go back to driving my 1988 Chev 1-ton quad-cab long-box 4-speed with a 6.2L Turbo Diesel that is currently getting roughly 25mpg. And it carries 50 to 100 Gals of oil in a slip tank and about 400lbs of tools. Right now, it also has another 200lbs of snow and ice packed in the bed… :) I love Diesels … they might be more expensive to buy and maintain, but what you get out of ‘em far out-weighs that price.

  36. James Tomlinson says

    The sad state of desiel in the U.S. continues. Detroit Desiel prototyped and tested both a 2 liter for the Neon and a 4.0l v6 for the first gen Durango. Neither was persued by Chrysler. Both verhicles are used by D.D. for lunch and errand running. They are horribly abused and continue to run strong. 40 mpg in a mid sized suv sounds like fun to me, also good acceleration on the street.

  37. Mitch Forbes says

    Please get the bike over here Tulsa, OK has a Ironbut run coming up, along with spring on the way I’d buy one if under 25 G’s

  38. kj7687 says

    That looks awsome. I’ve always like the idea of small(2.5 liter or smaller) turbo diesels in cars. I wish someone would put one in a small Jeep-like vehicle. Anyway the idea of making a motorcycle with one is pretty awesome. 250 torque at 5,500 rpm is definitely a nice number for a bike. If only things like these ever went into mass production. Unfortunately, it seems that they pretty much never do…

  39. Mitch Forbes says

    Still interested in getting that diz motorcycle, now starting summer ’09 an the long trips are coming up fast, PLEASE email with a price and info THANKS.

  40. Matt says

    I have a vw lupo with the 1.4tdi 3 cylinder engine and that has good mpg and is actually more powerful and quicker than the normal 1.4l lupo and I love the sound of vw 3 cylinder diesels along with the turbo they are quiet but when you out your foot down they are loud and mean sounding engines. I don’t see why anyone wouldn’t want a diesel car now that diesels have moved on such a long way from the dirty old engines.