Here's another effort on the electric motorcycle front, the fully enclosed and self balancing C1 from Lit Motors. The self balancing feature comes from gyroscopes mounted on gimbals in the frame, so, once they spin up, the C1 stays upright on its own. It has in wheel electric motors and hub center steering.
The video shows it has considerable resistance to tipping over, a pretty neat feature, and we can speculate all we want about what it would take to really lay it down, but since standard motorcycles are far less stable, saying the C1 might fall over under some circumstances is not really an argument against it.
The video and web site have differing statements of projected range, so let's say 100+ miles and leave it at that. Daniel Kim, company CEO, says 2013 is when they would like to have it on the market at a price of around $16,000.
It will be nice if this and the many other electric motorcycles under development actually become viable. They all look good and sound promising, but so did the Chevy Volt. Sooner or later, someone will find the right combination. Will this be it? We'll see.
Thanks, Matt, for the tip.
Link: Lit Motors
Video below:
{ 34 comments… read them below or add one }
Can’t wait to see it driven in real world conditions.
Crazy! I don’t mind that sweet little courier scooter/motorcycle either
Wonder how they solve the problem of gyroscopic precession?
Seems to me this would create huge stability issues while at driving speeds.
Granted, you would be able to change to x direction -if on a steady horozontal plane-, but as we all know, motorcycles lean rather well and this would give it a problem. This machine cannot lean, and hence directional changes would be compromised.
I’d like to see the face of the test driver on the track as he attempted a high speed avoidance turn to stay away from that big oncoming truck…
It’s got a conventional steering wheel, so I’m assuming that they overcome the bikes resistance to leaning by turning the front wheel for steering.
It helps to think of this as a car on two wheels rather than an enclosed motorcycle.
I’d be more worried about high-siding.
I would assume (you know what happens when you do that) that the stabilisers turn off at speed as the wheels will provide the stabilisation as in a normal bike.
Precession effects can be canceled by mechanically coupling two gyroscope rotors with opposite spin directions. Such an arrangement also happens to automatically find the appropriate lean angle when cornering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_monorail
Not bad for a 100+ year old design.
Pretty cool! Looks like there just might be enough room in back for a bag a groceries or my gym bag. My main concern would be getting run over by a transport or something because it is so small, those guys can easily miss something like this they have so many blind spots, but I guess that would be a worry on a regular motorcycle as well.
I want one.
me too
In addition to the prototypes, Daniel Kim demonstrates an impressive blend of inventiveness, design-savy and global market market insight.
That would be great if the gyro kicked in under ten mph or when struck like activating an airbag. Ooops, I just made his invention work. Send me a check scooter boy.
Like I said above, precession will keep this remarkable toy exactly where it is right now: a prototype with no future. Think of it like this, if you have a set of 12″ flywheels inside that are spinning at 30,000 rpm, then they will produce quite a few pounds of force dedicated to keeping the ride itself upright at right angles to the gravity constant. Try to change that angle and all you will accomplish is a temporary relocation of the axial center of gravity.
Yep, I think that’s it.
suspend the machine in space. No ground, just let it float there. Spin ‘er up.
That machine may try to lean left, and without gravity to anchor it, you would instantly see the trouble: If you were looking at it head on from the front, the top would start leaning left and the bottoms of the wheels would start to lean right.
And the whole machine would spiral on a line equal to and through the center of the flywheels axles. Way more than unstable, about the only place this would be welcomed is in a rifle barrel.
One note: this is an assumption in that I believe the flywheels are mounted vertically, as in on the edges. Possibly parallel to each other, possibly on each end of the vehicle.
There’s an alternative configuration, and they could be mounted horozontal, front and rear.
I haven’t worked out the dynamics of that configuration yet….but I’ll keep the model going until it breaks.
M
How is this a reply to my post? Did you even read it? The gyro would have to turn off to be able to drive it. On a different note; What’s with all the electric motorcycles? They are some of the most efficient vehicles out there. It’s isn’t like we had some breakthrough in battery tech that makes up for all the bulk, weight and time to refuel. The vast majority of riders value performance and style over economy. This could benefit Asia where they use their bikes for everything but they are the last to be able to afford a $16k bike.
Kim says the gyro is “precessed” on a actuated gimbal. I would assume that means the gyro is not fixed in place but changes position depending on how much you turn the steering wheel. It would be nice to see one going around corners.
Exactly. You can lean and steer your conventional bike even though it has 24″ diameter gyros on both ends. I don’t see the problem.
-todd
Mikey:
See @GenWaylaid’s response to you above – 2 counter-rotating gyros fix procession problem.
The C-1 has computer-ACTUATED gyros, which accomplish leaning/turning of the C-1.
I put my money where my mouth is…I’ve had a deposit on one since November.
Doors ? hell its just a couple wheels shy of a Prius….. I think motorcycle is a stretch at best…
Whisky Tango Foxtrot
If you are going to put scooter wheels on this pod, maybe you need stability but most any motorcyclists knows that “normal” motorcycles come with rather large gyroscopes on each end, covered in rubber
then consider the energy needed to spin up the gyro’s
sorry … not for me
Mine would have scrapes all along both sides; not from sliding along the ground but from lane splitting…
-todd
todd,
After reading all this crap technical stuff about whether or not this thing would work or not, your post made me smile and remember why I love motorcycles so much. Might make lane-splitting a new sport!
Cool ride. I might be able to ride to church more often, even in the rain and cold!
I think everyone’s missing the real question: where can I get those glowing rotors?
I flaw I see is you have electric propulsion, an inefficient and rather limited power source. And the majority of this limited power is consumed by turning gyroscopes rather than moving the vehicle. I assume as the batteries expire the bike falls over.
Also, shouldn’t it be possible to balance the motionless vehicle without gyroscopes? Trials riders do it. Ask them what the secret is…
thanks for bringing us this its very neat and the comments are good too
THE NEGATIVE
m/cycles are already super efficient and the battery tech is not there but more importantly electric sapping gyros will make this thing run for about 10 minutes before it tips over
guys who love bikes dont like doors, a roof and a steering wheel in general so 2 wheels has no value at all, in fact i would argue negative value. put 2 on the front instead and 1 out back and make it lean use the gyro at standstill or better yet an upright solution that passively does NOT use energy, still would have no mass appeal tho
having a steering wheel on this means there is no one in this group that understands 2 wheel dynamics ie TINY inputs, also the steering wheel would turn the wrong way!
the scooter concept is very neat but shouldnt put ergos secondary to storage and the folding is irrelevent, just because you can doesnt mean you should
THE POSITIVE!
this is a very undisciplined group ( i’m wondering how they are bootstrapping this as i doubt this it private equity $) ithey should focus ruthlessly on 3 things
1 what has protectable value, 2 what fills a mass market need, 3 what is doable given their resources?
they should focus on an self balancing inexpensive 2 wheeler like a scooter, they should perfect and patent their tech. there are lots of people that would like an affordable scooter that touts 1 less ‘balance ‘ intimidation,2 better safety, and 3 no feet down ts stop lights
forget electric for now, combine this with a lil gas engine with auto clutch and you have the ultimate twist and go they can patent and has broad appeal
i hope this note makes them think hard and prevents them from spending 5 years and their life savings on a dead end, if they change course they might have a shot as their are smart people in their group
i’ll let them know where to send the royalty checks
I don’t know about anyone else, but isn’t the whole point of riding a motorcycle to be in the wind?
Does it have a kick stand or something? What keeps it upright when it’s parked?
If anything, the gyros use free – or otherwise wasted – energy to spin them up. Every time you slow down or go down hill you can use that energy to spin up the gyros. You only need the battery to do that when you first climb in.
Braking force requirements are so high that an inner city, stop-go vehicle consumes very little energy at all. Flywheels are a very efficient way to store energy.
-todd
I’m sold. Literally: I put my $250 down last week.
Want Want Want WANT!
I don’t think that the energy in a couple gyroscopes is all that much to worry about when you will be saving all of the energy in drag from even a standard motorcycle (I hope.)
If these gyroscopes have any drag I am sure it is minimal at best, and only asserts itself when it is pressed against. I could see if there was a gale force wind where you parked it and neglected to plug it in the gyroscopes may wear out in a couple days.
A neat thing would be to have it “sleep” on a side bumper, and let the keychain remote wake it up off the ground. I would guess it would be more useful as a party trick than saving energy, but if it was set to sleep for battery saving it could prove useful at keeping a reserve of energy.
I don’t think BMW will allow the use of the name C1 because that was the name of their ill fated scooter sold from 2000 to 2003 in Europe. It was basically the same concept, but powered by 125 or 200cc Rotax engines.
It had a roof, windscreen wiper and screen wash fluid just like a car and also seat belts.BMW sold 10,614 units in 2001, 2,000 in 2002 and ceased production in October 2002.
These scooters although rare are much sought after by trendy city types for commuting in London and you always see a few parked up if you drive through the expensive Docklands area.
In 2009 BMW unveiled the C1-E an electric concept version.
Why wasn’t it a commercial success: It was very top heavy which made low speed riding difficult except for experienced riders – this resulted in unfavourable test reports and bad publicity.This new bike has gyroscopes which should crack that problem.
There were legislative problems – it was designed to have the safety of a car and had four point safety belts, crumple zone and shoulder roll bars, but in Sweden and the UK riders had to wear a helmet. If the seat belts were worn with a helmet, tests showed that fatal neck injuries were likely (hence why race car drivers are now mandated to wear the HANS device).
The other reason it failed was cost – it didn’t sell in big enough quantities and was expensive to make.
My advice to this project leader is license the gyro technology to BMW and other scooter manufacturers and let them fight the legislative battles and focus your production on your cargo scooter.
The link below has pictures and lots of info on the original C1 which some may not be familiar with as it wasn’t sold in the USA (probably for legislative reasons!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1
One final thought – for city commuting you want to be sitting upright to get a good view of traffic – ideally over the roofs of cars – the ideal bikes for this are scooters, trail bikes and naked / upright roadsters. This new C1 looks like the seating position would be too low for a good view.
PS reminds me a bit of the Quasar motorcycle from many years ago which was powered by an 850cc Robin Reliant engine or for the oldtimers amongst us what about the “NeR a Car”
Interesting thought – and the gyro argument is fun, but reality is $16k is a pipe dream.
$16k for their internal, as built, BOM is probably a reach.
Think about the guys doing the motorcycle based trikes – the Campagna guys (Trex) and the CanAm from Bombardier – and what those things retail for, and there is no way a guy will be able to have this vehicle at $16k with all the “system” bells and whistles they are considering.
All well and good to say “we don’t have a motor, the cooling, or the exhaust systems” to add cost, but batteries are not free, good electric motors are not free, and a cooling system of some nature will likely be required for the batteries at least (perhaps not for the guy rolling who would be baking like a yolk in a hardboiled egg) which are neither free nor in existance – so really no cost savings from turning away from ICE. To boot, throw in complex gyros and gimbals and flux capacitors, and even on paper this thing makes no cost sense.
Thought their team was interesting, lots of Design types, couple EE’s, MBA’s, and some physics background…..seemed thin on the mechanical engineering side of things.
Goodluck, doubtful we will ever see it in any kind of volume – unless there is Bill Gates money behind it, and selling at a loss hurts no one’s feelings……
C1 is DOA – Lit would be better off ditching the development cost of flux capacitors and go with an electric three wheeled design – could still be an enclosed vehicle with vehicle dynamics that are least well understood, certification/licensing/titling aspects that are motorcycle in nature versus automotive, and with a 3 wheeled system similar to the Piaggio, they could even get some lean….
Ok, I’m a little late coming in and commenting on this…but anyway..
Here is what I don’t get it at all.
Instead of messing around and trying to be extremely clever in coming up with a way to keep it balanced. Why not just add two wheels sort of like the Quadro scooter? Sure it might still need some help, but not nearly as much right? It is sort of like that two person Segway that GM dumped some money and support into. Instead of hurting the battery life to look clever and magical in staying upright, just add a third wheel and make it trike like. Sure it looses some future magic cool factor, but then it also would just work.
I know it takes a lot of these projects to eventually lead us to that future, but if you want it working now, there seem to be easy enough solutions without loosing too much of the style. Would 2 more wheels really kill the look of this thing? Probably not.
@GenWaylaid: Thanks for the Wikipedia link. It is fascinating to see how old some “new ideas” can be. Perhaps the Lit C1 is really an update of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrocar
Great comments! Of the two I’d rather have the Beemer, but I’ll stick with an affordable althought slightly noiser Buell