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	<title>Comments on: How Much Can Motorcycle Design Change?</title>
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	<description>Motorcycle News for Positive People</description>
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		<title>By: jim sadler</title>
		<link>http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/04/how-much-can-motorcycle-design-change/comment-page-1/#comment-203881</link>
		<dc:creator>jim sadler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/04/how-much-can-motorcycle-design-change/#comment-203881</guid>
		<description>Young women and old bikes make for one lifestyle and they can both rip your heart out.
       Seriously, old bikes are way to hard to get parts for in most cases. Where I live we ride all year as there is no winter. To me one needs a long winter to get older bikes ready for the riding seasons.
       What I would love to see is a return of two strokes like the H2 Kawasakis and also I would like to see modern development of old fashioned engines like L  head V twins with fuel injection and modern blowers to help them breath. Those old L heads were so compact that they looked great and some of them seemed to run forever as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Young women and old bikes make for one lifestyle and they can both rip your heart out.<br />
       Seriously, old bikes are way to hard to get parts for in most cases. Where I live we ride all year as there is no winter. To me one needs a long winter to get older bikes ready for the riding seasons.<br />
       What I would love to see is a return of two strokes like the H2 Kawasakis and also I would like to see modern development of old fashioned engines like L  head V twins with fuel injection and modern blowers to help them breath. Those old L heads were so compact that they looked great and some of them seemed to run forever as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/04/how-much-can-motorcycle-design-change/comment-page-1/#comment-93685</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/04/how-much-can-motorcycle-design-change/#comment-93685</guid>
		<description>A lot of people believe a motorcycle is art. BUT, art is not mass-marketed to consumers in the way motorcycles are today. So I would argue, not whether a guy thinks one particular genre of bikes are cool because of some universal truth, but rather WHO told him it was cool.

So for a game-changing design to take hold, it not only has to trump earlier designs but must also reverse the thinking of those who have been seduced into thinking the earlier design was &#039;cool&#039;.

Yes, I believe bikers are cultish. It&#039;s part of human nature for the &#039;many&#039; to want to belong to a group, to feel &#039;accepted&#039;. It&#039;s also human nature for the &#039;few&#039; to NOT want to be a part of a group. But then, you could lump all of those people into a group, too. So they&#039;re screwed!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of people believe a motorcycle is art. BUT, art is not mass-marketed to consumers in the way motorcycles are today. So I would argue, not whether a guy thinks one particular genre of bikes are cool because of some universal truth, but rather WHO told him it was cool.</p>
<p>So for a game-changing design to take hold, it not only has to trump earlier designs but must also reverse the thinking of those who have been seduced into thinking the earlier design was &#8216;cool&#8217;.</p>
<p>Yes, I believe bikers are cultish. It&#8217;s part of human nature for the &#8216;many&#8217; to want to belong to a group, to feel &#8216;accepted&#8217;. It&#8217;s also human nature for the &#8216;few&#8217; to NOT want to be a part of a group. But then, you could lump all of those people into a group, too. So they&#8217;re screwed!</p>
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		<title>By: tincan</title>
		<link>http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/04/how-much-can-motorcycle-design-change/comment-page-1/#comment-93669</link>
		<dc:creator>tincan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/04/how-much-can-motorcycle-design-change/#comment-93669</guid>
		<description>So if the market takes years to figure out what&#039;s cool, they&#039;re wrong? And if they accept it immediately, they&#039;re wrong again? Sounds like they&#039;re wrong either way...

I&#039;d say that the market, or rather the people who make up the market are right either way as long as they find a design that they love and really, really dig the ride it allows them to have. If that means they jump on something off the showroom floor, cool. If that means that they wanna drive a chrome dinosaur, also cool... But I find way more people leaning away from the new wiz-bang stuff. Even if they kind of like it. And I think has to do with the fact that they&#039;re uncertain about it (even if they think it&#039;s cool). 

It&#039;s kind of like the philosophy question: &#039;does culture drive art and technology? Or does art and technology drive culture?&#039; I think both are true. People ascribe to what they like and design follows to meet demand. Additionally, the designers bring something new and people respond with demand or not. One hand tends to feed the other. 

I&#039;ll admit it, the market can be brutal, but people just simply buy what they like and that simple fact has  helped drive the market to be what it is today. I wouldn&#039;t expect people to give up design styles they love just to make things easier for new designs. 

It&#039;s not an unreasonable demand that the public puts on new products, that if something claims to be better than those before it, they have to prove it; just like those who came before them. And the burden of proof falls to the designers to drive people into recognizing value, performance and passion in their new concepts. 

How much can motorcycle design change? It can change a lot but if it strays too far from what people want, it&#039;s going to have to change back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So if the market takes years to figure out what&#8217;s cool, they&#8217;re wrong? And if they accept it immediately, they&#8217;re wrong again? Sounds like they&#8217;re wrong either way&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say that the market, or rather the people who make up the market are right either way as long as they find a design that they love and really, really dig the ride it allows them to have. If that means they jump on something off the showroom floor, cool. If that means that they wanna drive a chrome dinosaur, also cool&#8230; But I find way more people leaning away from the new wiz-bang stuff. Even if they kind of like it. And I think has to do with the fact that they&#8217;re uncertain about it (even if they think it&#8217;s cool). </p>
<p>It&#8217;s kind of like the philosophy question: &#8216;does culture drive art and technology? Or does art and technology drive culture?&#8217; I think both are true. People ascribe to what they like and design follows to meet demand. Additionally, the designers bring something new and people respond with demand or not. One hand tends to feed the other. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll admit it, the market can be brutal, but people just simply buy what they like and that simple fact has  helped drive the market to be what it is today. I wouldn&#8217;t expect people to give up design styles they love just to make things easier for new designs. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not an unreasonable demand that the public puts on new products, that if something claims to be better than those before it, they have to prove it; just like those who came before them. And the burden of proof falls to the designers to drive people into recognizing value, performance and passion in their new concepts. </p>
<p>How much can motorcycle design change? It can change a lot but if it strays too far from what people want, it&#8217;s going to have to change back.</p>
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		<title>By: RH</title>
		<link>http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/04/how-much-can-motorcycle-design-change/comment-page-1/#comment-93580</link>
		<dc:creator>RH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/04/how-much-can-motorcycle-design-change/#comment-93580</guid>
		<description>What is both sad and funny is that an awful lot of the currently desirable machines from the past were sales duds when they were new - some of which destroyed the companies that made them. Then they are suddenly great machines. That doesn&#039;t say much for the market, either.

That the new has to somehow pay homage to something else&#039;s past is a guarantee of both acceptance and mediocrity. No thanks - immediate acceptance isn&#039;t sufficient motivation. That&#039;s for someone else&#039;s tribe - you know, the one that takes years to figure out the obvious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is both sad and funny is that an awful lot of the currently desirable machines from the past were sales duds when they were new &#8211; some of which destroyed the companies that made them. Then they are suddenly great machines. That doesn&#8217;t say much for the market, either.</p>
<p>That the new has to somehow pay homage to something else&#8217;s past is a guarantee of both acceptance and mediocrity. No thanks &#8211; immediate acceptance isn&#8217;t sufficient motivation. That&#8217;s for someone else&#8217;s tribe &#8211; you know, the one that takes years to figure out the obvious.</p>
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		<title>By: Robbie Dean</title>
		<link>http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/04/how-much-can-motorcycle-design-change/comment-page-1/#comment-93545</link>
		<dc:creator>Robbie Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 05:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/04/how-much-can-motorcycle-design-change/#comment-93545</guid>
		<description>Sorry it took me so long to respond... I was going as fast as I could with Windows 95 and a dial up modem... Or so some would say. 

Let me repeat from October 7:
&quot;Come to think of it, I don’t think there is any type of motorcycle that I don’t appreciate (meaning new or old). But that appreciation has to be earned.&quot;

As I also said, &quot;...I have a newer bike&quot; (obviously with newer technology) ...BUT... newer is not always better. It&#039;s often just newer... and it has to stand the test of time.  The older bikes, at least the ones that have achieved notoriety, have been tested on highways, race tracks and road trips for years.  Every once in a blue moon a new one will pop onto the scene and quickly gain respect, but those blue moons are few and far between and whether or not a bike is going to gain wide popularity... only time, and time alone will tell. 

Additionally, genres are there if we like it or not. And people hold to them pretty tightly. It doesn&#039;t mean that we have to agree or disagree with that... We just need to look around and ask around in order to see that it&#039;s true. It happens to be the world we ride in. Motorcycling is more than just a hobby to an awful lot of people. It is their freedom and subculture and escape and yes to some, their totem.  

Should this drive motorcycle design? Well maybe and maybe not. But that is not the question. The question is: &#039;DOES this drive motorcycle design&#039;? Yes it does. Wanna know why? Because people buy what they like. Why then are there so many new bikes coming out that are so similar to older traditional ones? Because that is what lots and lots of bikers like.

Lots of bikers like the innovations too... Me included; that&#039;s why I own a newer one. It&#039;s fast and scrappy and handles great and I love to ride it. But I also try to have an open mind toward other styles and modes of machine. That makes me a fan of the Euros, Rice rockets, V-twins and a lot of the less popular models; including some of the almost forgotten beasts of yesterday.

Motorcycle design could change a whole lot over the next decade but that doesn&#039;t mean everyone is going to buy up all the new stuff. If you want to be great, then you have to do great things... not just different things. If you want to be a great painter... well, shut up and paint. And if you want to see some changes  in motorcycle design, then you had better get your wrenches out and turn on the CNC because the proof is in the pudding.

And the saying is true: &#039;Art is best displayed with the artist out of the way&#039;. There are many an artist who when out-sold or unpraised enough by others begin to throw stones. Let&#039;s hope that none of us are so easily offended. Motorcycle design IS art as well as science and as such may be liked or disliked depending on whim and taste. This means that the old and the new designs each have their chance in the gallery. And if something ain&#039;t sellin&#039;... then it probably ain&#039;t that great. 

Finally, those old relic motorbikes have in them the very foundation on which newer technology stands. In many ways THEY are the reason that motorcycling is so popular. I would hope that, for the future of our common interests that, as we reach for the future, we hold well onto the past. To do any less is to live in denial and self absorption. 

Sorry if I offended anyone who&#039;s been to the motorbike store with their credit card lately. If that means you, I hope your new bike stands the test of time with the best of them.

Ride on,
          -Rob</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry it took me so long to respond&#8230; I was going as fast as I could with Windows 95 and a dial up modem&#8230; Or so some would say. </p>
<p>Let me repeat from October 7:<br />
&#8220;Come to think of it, I don’t think there is any type of motorcycle that I don’t appreciate (meaning new or old). But that appreciation has to be earned.&#8221;</p>
<p>As I also said, &#8220;&#8230;I have a newer bike&#8221; (obviously with newer technology) &#8230;BUT&#8230; newer is not always better. It&#8217;s often just newer&#8230; and it has to stand the test of time.  The older bikes, at least the ones that have achieved notoriety, have been tested on highways, race tracks and road trips for years.  Every once in a blue moon a new one will pop onto the scene and quickly gain respect, but those blue moons are few and far between and whether or not a bike is going to gain wide popularity&#8230; only time, and time alone will tell. </p>
<p>Additionally, genres are there if we like it or not. And people hold to them pretty tightly. It doesn&#8217;t mean that we have to agree or disagree with that&#8230; We just need to look around and ask around in order to see that it&#8217;s true. It happens to be the world we ride in. Motorcycling is more than just a hobby to an awful lot of people. It is their freedom and subculture and escape and yes to some, their totem.  </p>
<p>Should this drive motorcycle design? Well maybe and maybe not. But that is not the question. The question is: &#8216;DOES this drive motorcycle design&#8217;? Yes it does. Wanna know why? Because people buy what they like. Why then are there so many new bikes coming out that are so similar to older traditional ones? Because that is what lots and lots of bikers like.</p>
<p>Lots of bikers like the innovations too&#8230; Me included; that&#8217;s why I own a newer one. It&#8217;s fast and scrappy and handles great and I love to ride it. But I also try to have an open mind toward other styles and modes of machine. That makes me a fan of the Euros, Rice rockets, V-twins and a lot of the less popular models; including some of the almost forgotten beasts of yesterday.</p>
<p>Motorcycle design could change a whole lot over the next decade but that doesn&#8217;t mean everyone is going to buy up all the new stuff. If you want to be great, then you have to do great things&#8230; not just different things. If you want to be a great painter&#8230; well, shut up and paint. And if you want to see some changes  in motorcycle design, then you had better get your wrenches out and turn on the CNC because the proof is in the pudding.</p>
<p>And the saying is true: &#8216;Art is best displayed with the artist out of the way&#8217;. There are many an artist who when out-sold or unpraised enough by others begin to throw stones. Let&#8217;s hope that none of us are so easily offended. Motorcycle design IS art as well as science and as such may be liked or disliked depending on whim and taste. This means that the old and the new designs each have their chance in the gallery. And if something ain&#8217;t sellin&#8217;&#8230; then it probably ain&#8217;t that great. </p>
<p>Finally, those old relic motorbikes have in them the very foundation on which newer technology stands. In many ways THEY are the reason that motorcycling is so popular. I would hope that, for the future of our common interests that, as we reach for the future, we hold well onto the past. To do any less is to live in denial and self absorption. </p>
<p>Sorry if I offended anyone who&#8217;s been to the motorbike store with their credit card lately. If that means you, I hope your new bike stands the test of time with the best of them.</p>
<p>Ride on,<br />
          -Rob</p>
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