Harley Davidson Leaning Trike Patent Application
June 1st, 2007 by Paul Crowe - "The Kneeslider"
Here’s something a bit different from the Motor Company, it’s a patent application from Harley Davidson for a leaning trike. It’s looks like a cross between the Can-Am Spyder and the Brudeli 625 but it is distinctively Harley with the big twin power plant in there. Whether they are thinking of producing this or something similar, they probably wanted to get the paperwork in to make sure they were covered. Filed on either September 27, 2006 or April 5, 2007, I can’t figure out which dates apply, reading patent paperwork can be a bit confusing.
From the application:
The present invention relates to a suspension system for a three-wheeled vehicle. The suspension system permits the vehicle to lean while cornering, much like a motorcycle. This is accomplished via hydraulic actuators that force the bike into a leaning position while turning, and back to an upright position while tracking a straight line. A transverse beam is coupled to the hydraulic actuators and to spring dampers to allow the suspension to operate independently, even while the vehicle is cornering.
More drawings and links below:
Link: US Patent Application via Motorcycle Daily
Posted in Motorcycle Business, Motorcycle Design, Three Wheel Motor Vehicles
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60 Responses to “Harley Davidson Leaning Trike Patent Application”
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June 1st, 2007 at 11:20 am
Good luck with the patent. The Piaggio MP3 is already in stores!
June 1st, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Confusing. This trike leans while cornering but it’s not clear to me whether it counterstears like a motorcycle. The Piaggio MP3 counterstears and handles just like a regular motorcycle but provides the added stability and cornering ability of three wheels. Unfortunately, the Piaggio MP3 will only attract scooter riders (and not motorcyclists) because of the small engine size and step-through design. If Piaggio built an MP3 with the 850 engine/transmission from the Aprilia 850 Mana and designed it more like a motorcycle (i.e. no step-through) I would be first in line to buy one. It would be an awesome wet-weather commuter and wildly fun in the twisties.
June 1st, 2007 at 12:51 pm
What is Harley trying to accomplish with this patent? I dont quite get it, Is it that they are just patenting a minor variation in leaning three-wheelers? Or is it an attempt to CYA against litigation from another company?
June 1st, 2007 at 2:36 pm
I guess overheating is now even less of a concern for Harley…
I’ve never ridden a leaning three wheeler (but I did see an MP3 splitting lanes on highway 24 through Orinda yesterday). Why would it need a hydraulic leaning system? If you aren’t compressing the suspension when leaning what forces are there to actuate against? I think it could easily be done with a simple “free” system.
-todd
June 1st, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Wow, a parallelogram system of turning. Why the hydraulics though? This is the sort of three wheeler design I’d prefer to something like the T-Rex or MP3. It’s definitely the back end of a motorcycle, but the front end is more in line with an F1 car. Who knows, maybe the first Harley to handle well regardless of the weather?
June 1st, 2007 at 8:36 pm
well, I am puzzled: in looking at the drawings supplied in the article I fail to understand if the trike is two wheels in front or the back.
The perspective drawing and side elevation, shows the machine with two front wheels. However, the front to back elevations - showing the leaning dynamics - shows as if it was a the opposite; with the two wheels in the back… So, what is it Mr. HD?
June 1st, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Looks very similar to the Can-Am Spyder, but the leaning suspension should give it better stability and higher cornering speed.
There’s been a lot of talk of three wheelers (my wife is even interested in one), but nobody (except Bombardier/Rotax) seems to be actually bringing anything to market.
If they unveil a production model soon, I think they’ll sell quite a few.
The sketches are probably intentionally mis-leading. They shouldn’t be obligated to show the exact production version and, since they know patents are public record, they have probably altered the non-suspension details.
I’d bet that the V-Rod engine is more likely than the air-cooled version they seem to be showing.
The dealer show should be in July, so maybe we’ll see a production version then. I’ve been hearing rumors of “big things” but this is the first time I’ve heard or seen any suggestion of a three-wheeler like this.
June 1st, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Too wide.
June 1st, 2007 at 11:40 pm
I think non-tilting reverse trike provide just as much cornering performance thrill plus lower cost of production ala Can Am Spyder. Now consider a 3 wheel drive reverse trike that should enhance handling stability plus the flexibility of on and off road use. Lastly, add a full weather protection body and you should end up with a personal vehicle for work and play all year round. “PO”
June 2nd, 2007 at 2:34 am
Kneeslider: They filed a provisional patent in Sept 30, 2005. They then had 1 year to file the non-provisional patent which they barely did on Sept 27. 2006. A patent app will publish 18 months after disclosure, so it published on April 5, 2007, about 18 months after original filing.
Tom: A leaning reverse trike can’t have better stability and cornering than a non-leaning reverse trike due to tire contact patch. The Spyder has car tires, this invention uses motorcycle tire with a smaller patch.
Tom: Futhermore, the sketches CAN’T be misleading or else that is inequitable conduct to the PTO and the whole patent will be invalidated. They are OBLIGATED by law to disclose everything they know and NOT to keep the best method or suspension a secret. That is the quid pro quo for having a monopoly for 20 years. If they hold something back, it won’t be covered by the patent!
I just think Harley is exploring the concepts like a bunch of other companies, even if they never go that route. Remember, Harley purchased TriHawk years back but never did anything with it, other than shut it down.
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:36 am
Alejandro,
Contact patch - Nice catch phrase, but doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Imagine the spider going around a hard turn. If it goes fast enough, won’t one of the tires tend to lift? How’s that leave the contact patch? Also as it tilts, the other tires (because as you say they have flat, auto style tires) will tilt into a non-ideal position, and when that happens, since the tire doesn’t have the spherical nature of a motorcycle tire, you’ll be on an edge. Not good contact at all.
The key is not only contact patches, but normal forces acting on those contact patches. In stright-line driving, the forces will be very simple and two dimensional. You will have gravity providing a downward force, and you will have the force of the engine acting through the tires to accelerate the vehicle forward. Wide flat tires work best for that situation, but as soon as you include centripetal acceleration of a curve, you have problems with wide, flat tires and the tendency for the vehicle to tilt. . . . which is, of course, why a wide flat tire on a traditional motorcycle would not provide the best handling even though it would appear to have a superior “contact patch”.
Keep in mind that friction is a function of not only contact patch, but the normal force on that contact patch. The key is to keep the normal forces directed to the contact patches and this design will do that much better than the Spyder design.
As for the patent disclosures, I have authored several patents and I am VERY familiar with the process and legal requirements. I didn’t read this particular patent, but from what I’ve seen, it is related to the suspension system. If they are not including the details of the engine in the patent (and for the life of me I can’t imagine that they would), they could use that suspension system with a 45 degree air-cooled twin or a 60 degree water cooled twin. Body work etc. would not be covered by the patent, so they could vary body work, engines, etc. and still be within the patent as long as the suspension is the same.
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:56 am
Alejandro, thanks for sorting out the dates.
The sketches are not really misleading, it might seem that way at first glance but the drawings here show a reverse trike in all views. There are a few more diagrams in the patent application with exploded views of the parts for those interested.
Leaning gives a more motorcycle like experience while three wheels enhance stability. Leaning would increase contact patch due to the profile of most motorcycle tires. Motorcycle tires on a non-leaning trike make a lot less sense and would end up squaring themselves off in short order anyway, a lot like they do for riders who cover lots of highway miles and don’t get very aggressive in the turns.
A leaning trike, whether or not it makes sense in absolute cornering capacity, enables riders to feel a lot more like they are on a regular motorcycle, it means you can still lean way over in the turns even if there might be a little dirt or gravel on the road or when it is a bit slippery in spots from rain or even ice or snow.
Motorcycles are very much about the riding experience and everything can’t be reduced to pure engineering or technical reasons. I think motorcycle riders are more likely to enjoy a leaning trike than a non leaning version, non riders may find the straight up Can-Am Spyder does everything they want it to.
Tom: Yep, the patent is for “Leaning Suspension Mechanics” nothing in there about engines or anything else.
June 2nd, 2007 at 10:39 am
Leaning is not for the trike it is for the rider. Imagine a 200 pound mass sitting high up on the seat of the trike. Now take a hard turn and the mass will want to yank the vehicle up on its outer two wheels. Now lean that mass to where it is as far into the inside of the turn as possible and the trike is now more stable. Tire grip is hardly a problem these days even on skinny little motorcycle tires. You will flip a trike sooner than you could make it slide just as much as you can do stoppies or wheelies on a motorcycle long before you can get the front to skid or the rear to burn rubber.
Besides, leaning on a trike just looks so cool regardless if it’s more fun or not.
-todd
June 2nd, 2007 at 11:06 am
Though a reverse trike may not have any more grip than a regular trike, it does have some benefits with regard to braking.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:09 pm
I have had this debate before and I respectfully disagree with Tom on the whole contact patch debate. A non-leaning trike has better overall performance, BUT may not be as FUN. Look, any sports car can out corner and out brake a motorcycle. For instance, the T-Rex has outstanding cornering and braking, far better than any motorcycle. Yet, it may not be as fun.
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:13 pm
You’re all missing the point: this will save Harley riders from dropping their chrome machines when they park at the next bar.
June 2nd, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Richard has the real reason why this patent was filed
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:40 pm
this is too good a thing to just sit on. they had better actually do something with it. here’s hoping the patent application isn’t just to thwart others from selling there own.
June 3rd, 2007 at 5:39 am
Years ago Harley paid an outside firm to build a reverse trike , then things went sour and when Harley tried to goto court to get possession of it, they lost even though they had six figures invested, because the design firm had all the paperwork in their name and not Harleys.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
I’ve been riding with a Voyager kit for years due to an accident that prevents me from riding on 2 wheels. I’ve avoided regular trikes due the the non-leaning issue, and the Voyager gives me something, albeit I’m usually leaning the wrong way. So FINALLY a Harley that will give me that sensation of riding on 2 wheels again, yet still give me the stability of a trike? BRING IT ON!!!
June 8th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
wait until there is a “lean-three” racing class
June 17th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Well this is an interesting subject, to lean or not to lean that is the question more or less.I have test drove the Spyder on some pretty sharp curves going faster than I should have.When I didn’t lean into the curve it felt like centrifugal force was going to throw me off.When I did lean naturally I felt better in control but still it’s not like a bike as we know.To me this is just a four wheeler missing a wheel and that’s how it drives and handles there is no comparison at all to motorcycle.I own four wheelers and have a Harley Davidson soft tail and if you didn’t know it had only one rearwheel you would think it was a four wheeler.
Now I’ve heard rumors for a long time that Harley Davison was going to make a production trike.If it does lean I can only say from my experience it would be a positive more likable ride like Alejandro had said.I ordered a Spyder because of the ride not because it’s like a motorcycle far from it. It will be the most powerful street legal production four wheeler with three wheels out there. If Harley Davison makes this leaning trike I’m sure it will cost almost as much as two Spyders. A lot of my friends who I ride with ask me why did I order one, most of them see it as a old man’s handicap motorcycle.
I told them don’t knock it to your ride.
June 27th, 2007 at 1:51 am
this is what I have been waiting for. Had accident 2 yrs ago & have been unable to ride, with this, I can see myself out there again.
July 18th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
The essence of this trike is simple…..lean like a bike, with the stability of a trike. I have been working on this concept for a little while. I like the design, but they still don’t have it quite right. There are changes that can be made to the suspension geometry to make the trike act EXACTLY like a bike with regards to the lean and the feel of the bike. They are close, but they don’t have it perfect yet in my opinion.
August 5th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Somehow a Harley that handles just doesn’t sound right - it’ll probably be a tractor that will only be able to handle if you spend a ***load more cash on extras.
August 12th, 2007 at 1:29 am
I’ve ridden the Can-Am Spyder (and ordered one). They DO lean a bit, and the stability control system will NOT allow a tire to come off the ground.
These are tons of fun to ride… VERY fast and handle like a charm. I took 35 mph curves at 65 without a problem.
Can-Am has been working on this for over 10 years. I’m a bit shocked Harley would file such a patent.
Can-Am has done a great job with this bike… can’t wait to get mine in January!
August 12th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
I had the opportunity to talk to Tony Divey.
For those of you who have no idea who he is, he has built a reverse trike in the UK based upon a Moto Guzzi and sold somewhere near 200 copies of it.
He told me that he was aproached by Harley Davidson a few years ago and that they purchased a pair of his creations.
His vehicle dffers greatly from this style of of stuff and the Can Am. He placed the motor out front of the front axle line and allows for lower placement of the operator. Besides that, in my opinion, it just plain looks cooler.
I wonder if the three wheel segment, no matter how small it is, this drawing is just a way for HD to cover their bases. Just in case the Can Am exceeds sales.
August 12th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
It amazes me that Harley would go through the trouble of leaning the front wheels. I’ve been building Reverse trikes for years with a Harley powered model and a Yamaha V max powered model, low seating and great suspension is the key. If they want to lean something it should be the frame, engine, rider and rear tire as a whole and leave the front tires alone. Leaning the body and not the front tires moves the weight to inside of the turn where you need it. Tilting the front tires is a lot of unnessary work and expense, it’s more for show and oooooohs and aaaahhhs. Of course this is just my opinion. I’m not real happy with HD because there design is so close to my Roadstercycle design. I actually believe they saw my design and thought that they’d better do something. With over 22,000 hits on my site in the last 8 months
I think their right!
August 13th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
First off, Thanks Danimal for the info on the Can-Am. I would love to try one if they ever get here in n.c. . But i hope Harley doe’s not put this one in the paper basket. I have good friend, His wife heard about this and walked over to ask if this was real crying her eye’s out. See he is a parapegect, She ask me after i explaned the deal with patent’s and prototype’s. To go with her so she buy one. For her oldman of course i would. If harley build’s this i can see two more people very happy. I just hope they do”.
September 6th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
With 50+K on conventional trikes I’m really glad to see the interest in trikes. Hannigan has just announced a reverse trike kit for the Gold Wing. HD signed some sort of agreement with Lehman Trikes about a year ago so that they could offer HD trikes from the factory. I work part time installing kits for the local HD dealer. I’m currently riding a Ultra Classic/CSC Trike conversion and we like it (needs more power!). Hopefully soon I’ll be able to take one of the Spyder’s for a test ride. More power stock than I can build in my HD and I could buy two of them plus some accessories for what I’ve got in the HD. If they do build it I sure hope they use the V-Rod motor! I doubt that we will see it, but you never know.
September 11th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Frank S got it right…This bike/trike with a “H-D” emblem will cost two to three times as much as the Spyder. The price point will be too high for it to have a significant impact on the market.
September 13th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
Why? I ordered a Can-Am Spyder Roadster. Its alot cooler and more fun to ride. I don’t get the leaning. On a trike??? I’m going to love my new Can-Am Spyder because theres nothing like it a whole new thing and Harley is trying to copy it and they failed already.
September 14th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Harley should work at building a 2 wheeler that you can lean!
September 27th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Harley has been looking at their ridership demographics and knows that their base is aging rapidly with all the younger riders riding something else, like real motorcycles…so they are going to have this for their riders when they are too old to do the two wheeled thing anymore. And just imagine how much chrome you can hang on of these babies….
October 13th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
For me, the potential in the recent fascination for tilting trikes, from both the car and motorcycle industries, is that someone will eventually design a vehicle that combines soem of the practical advantages of cars and motorcycles.
That is, an ultralight, weatherproof machine, with an ergonomc riding position (as in a car), more luggage capacity and better crash protection than a bike, excellent fuel economy and stability.
If it can be kept within about a metre’s width, I think there is a possibility…
October 16th, 2007 at 12:17 am
From what I hear,the Can-Am Spyder basicaly steers and handles like a rear wheel powered small car. And it takes some Manual Armstrong steering to make U turns and tight corners. I have an MP3 but pretty much hate the front wheel locking system. With a comfortable custom saddle to ride on, the front wheel leaning Harley would be my choice. I’d even sell my MP3 to buy it!
October 17th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
I am handicapped. I ride an 06 Road King with a sidecar. All controls are up on the handlebars. The only thing that ever tempted me to get off the King is the Can-Am Spyder. If Harley puts one of these things in production I will buy one. Imediately.
October 17th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
GOOD FOR YOU MIKE HARTWELL, I LIKE SEEING RIDERS THAT DON’T GIVE UP”
October 21st, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Believe it or not, my contacts at harley say July of 2008 it should debut. I just test rode the spyder, and it was quite fun. My wife wants one. I will definately keep my ultra-classic, but at least we can ride together. I imagine it will also be good for handicapped riders, as your feet never need to touch the ground except for mounting and dismounting. And the spyder is coming in automatic…i imagine harley will do the same. Kinda takes some of the fun out of riding if you ask me.
October 21st, 2007 at 9:53 pm
I think if nothing else, it will get more women riders on the road.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:25 am
If a round cross section tire is better around a turn than a flat cross section tire, tell me why an Indy car can get faster lap times than a Super Bike.
If you position the Center of Gravity correctly, and 3-wheeler history has shown weight over front wheels works better, then a non-leaning reverse trike with flat tires will spank a leaning trike with motorcycle tires.
But, having a low CG is also important. So the rider sitting way up high is a negative. The leaning trike will get the rider closer to equilibrium in a turn, but the leaning front wheels is overkill in my opinion.
Bob Riley wrote a good book on various 3-wheeler configurations:
http://www.rqriley.com
I don’t agree with needing to tilt the front wheels either. This is more or less for show. But I do know that the hydraulic actuators and beam are important to induce the leaning and return it to normal, otherwise it wouldn’t work.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:48 am
Leaning is to ensure that the forces on the rider are primarily down vs lateral.
Two tires in front is called the Tadpole design and has proven to be far more stable than the traditional trike layout.
November 1st, 2007 at 3:03 pm
I love all the engineering and marketing experts here who BOUGHT their bikes.
November 9th, 2007 at 2:29 am
Dante - i don’t know if anyone has addressed this yet - what you think is a rear elevation is actually the front elevation. what looks like the gas tank is actually the front “fairing”. look at the direction of the mirrors.
the wheel leans because it minimizes lateral forces on the wheel - specifically the bearings in the hub as well as the spokes of the wheel - it can then be lighter. (although i don’t know that all the extra linkage and hydraulics to accomplish this will cancel that out)
December 1st, 2007 at 3:12 am
tadpole designs usualy spin out before they tip, normal trike designs usualy tip before they spin out. All in all the patent could most likly be broken by inteligent persons finding previously published works ie. drawings, pictures or text. Remember this company patented their sound nuff said. The best design is the one that is right for you, all are compromises. Remember the one constant in life is change.
December 1st, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Harley never patented the sound. They did try to register it as a trade mark. They dropped it.
Does anyone remember the TriHawk? Harley bought that company then shut it down over 20 years ago.
Does anybody also remember the Car & Driver road test of a FireAero, also about 20 years ago? It was a “tadpole” style trike with a motorcycle engine between the seats and the back wheel. C&D had a great photo of it - after they flipped it.
Both trikes, and a whole lot of others, can be seen at http://www.3wheelers.com
Tadpoles & deltas can corner just as hard and without flipping - only of the CG is placed correctly (low and very close to the parallel wheels) and they have a decent amount of track width.
A tilting trike can corner a LOT harder than a non-leaning one - when the CG is high. And the steering effort will be a whole lot less than one with flat profile tires.
December 3rd, 2007 at 5:41 pm
I don’t think anyone checked for the patent the link is for an exhaust system mod. It has nothing to do with a trike suspension. Although it’s a good idea! It is just not base on a real patent or the link is bogus.
December 3rd, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Bob, check it again. The proper link is in there now. Somehow the link was misdirected to the later story about the exhaust patent.
December 20th, 2007 at 12:32 am
Harley did this because other companies, such as BMP, were trying to copy their idea. Matter of fact, Bombardier must pay HD rights for the use of their suspension.
Harley is going to market with this very soon. Price? About 30k.
Harley had a never before, never again open house for friends and family at the PDC. I spoke to a couple of engineers on this project.
January 21st, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Alejandro had the best point here… a non-leaning trike can enjoy the advantages of square-section rubber.
No trike’s design has a particularly high C of G, so I think leaning’s not going to help stick to the road.
I think the design’s more for the biker experience than ultimate grip - I’ve known non car-driving bikers who get very freaked out by lateral forces on the body!
…but I’d go for a Morgan any day!
January 21st, 2008 at 7:14 pm
QUOTE:
“No trike’s design has a particularly high C of G, so I think leaning’s not going to help stick to the road.”
The CGs of the various trikes - unoccupied - might not be that different, but the location of the rider’s mass makes a HUGE difference. Add passengers and other stuff over the rear wheel and the CG goes up and back a LOT.
February 14th, 2008 at 5:47 am
Well the patents must be for very specific applications because most of these ideas and leaning concepts have been around for a long time, as I found out for myself. Everytime I come up with a concept as I did independently for this I find out I am very late, Da Vinci Aristotle or who knows else was already there ;o]. If implimented correctly it would have to improve cornering forces tremendeously as the trike would increase the grip by driving the tire into the pavement rather than rolling over the CG. I assembled a small LEGO model demonstrates this very well, by pushing on it latterally it grips way harder with tilt than non tilt. The sensation to the rider has to be better in my opinion on something that leans into a corner. Any animal ( Think big Feline here) that makes quick changes in direction usually lowers its cg spreads its base and leans into the desired direction. As far as spinning out that is probably the inherant trait that needs the most consideration and F/R weight bias seems to be critical to me, I have a few ideas for that as well and what I think are novell ideas but am usually wrong about that aspect. God willing maybe I wil have my RC prototype done this summer, any one that might have old higher end RC stuff they want to unload cheap could help.
February 19th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
So - when is this Harley Trike actually suppose to appear on showroom floors?? They’ve been talking about it for quite some time - so far nothing!
Anyone have a clue or two???
February 26th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
The idea is great but I don’t believe you can feel that you are on a motorcycle if it has two wheels in the front. I’m in a wheelchair and my idea accommodates my disability by having a place to put my chair on the bike. Mine leans but not as dramatically as this idea and the stability is not compromised by leaning wheels. Every idea is based on the designers need to accomplish the desire to successfully prove his claims…
March 5th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
So, if Harley Davidson is behind this it might actually come to market? That would be neat. Priced right with factory backing and a warranty.
Just an aside. I remember seeing a Honda Four back in the 1970s with sidecar that could lean. I watched a road test from LA on TV. A regular bike… a regular sidecar… but it articulated and forward & leaned into the corners.
Looked simple but I think it was a one-off.
March 21st, 2008 at 6:50 pm
keep an eye out at the 105th……….
March 30th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
having read the foregoing comments, i can only conclude that to lean or not to lean means very little ride at four fifths not five fifths,you will enjoy the ride much more I have a can am spyder and its great fun particulary when a two wheeler is not an option
March 31st, 2008 at 9:22 pm
what would keep a group of us (?) from building one of these for the xprize competition(s) and taking home the $5MIL?? MAYBE HDwill throw in some cash!! How much would the first prototype cost??
March 31st, 2008 at 9:31 pm
a lower seating position farther fwd would give a much greater feel of control at the expense of greater risk of bodily harm in a screw up. not a bad trade-off.
April 19th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Regarding the HD patent application on the leaning tadpole trike, I just went to the USPTO website to see if there has been any progress on the patent. The most recent correspondence between the USPTO and HD appears to have happened on March 4, 2008, and is simply a list of previous patents (there are easily over 100 patents on the list!) related to leaning three-wheelers. In any case, for us anxious riders, things in the patent world seem to move at a snail’s pace! But, manufacturers can produce and sell a product even if they are only in “patent-pending” status, so who knows, maybe HD will take a risk and start selling their three-wheeler before they have the patent! Build now, get sued (and settle out of court) later!